Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:17 am

More recent extinctions, including the late Pleistocene, IMHO, are likely to be human driven. It is no coincidence that mass extinctions occurred in North America, Australia, Madagascar, New Zealand, Hawaii, the Caribbean etc just after humans moved in.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:13 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:17 am
More recent extinctions, including the late Pleistocene, IMHO, are likely to be human driven. It is no coincidence that mass extinctions occurred in North America, Australia, Madagascar, New Zealand, Hawaii, the Caribbean etc just after humans moved in.
There's still considerable debate about that among paleontologists. I'm sure humans had a role, but there have been some catastrophic events which could have also played a major role.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:15 pm

maunas wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:05 am
Thank you Gord, Thank you Lance,

Here is a non hypothetical seeming example.

The net result of our study is to raise questions about the reigning hypothesis that “tough times” during the late Pleistocene contributed to the gradual extinction of large carnivores,” DeSantis summarized. “While we can not determine the exact cause of their demise, it is unlikely that the extinction of these cats was a result of gradually declining prey (due either to changing climates or human competition) because their teeth tell us that these cats were not desperately consuming entire carcasses, as we had expected, and instead seemed to be living the ‘good life’ during the late Pleistocene, at least up until the very end.”

Reference:

https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2012/12/26/ ... xtinction/
It's a general rule that large megafauna are the first to disappear during mass-extinction events. They are particularly vulnerable to food shortages during "tough times."
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:09 pm

Landrew

I am aware that scientists also can be idiots. This means those who portray the mass extinctions of the past 60,000 years (Australia), 15,000 years ago (North America), New Zealand (800 years ago) etc etc as due to climate change or similar bulldust. All the megafauna that died off at those times and places survived the current 2 million year Ice Age, and the ten glacial and interglacial climate change events that went with it. Yet they all died off a short time after humans entered their territory. To believe humans had nothing to do with it is scientific stupidity at its worst.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:53 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:09 pm
Landrew

I am aware that scientists also can be idiots. This means those who portray the mass extinctions of the past 60,000 years (Australia), 15,000 years ago (North America), New Zealand (800 years ago) etc etc as due to climate change or similar bulldust. All the megafauna that died off at those times and places survived the current 2 million year Ice Age, and the ten glacial and interglacial climate change events that went with it. Yet they all died off a short time after humans entered their territory. To believe humans had nothing to do with it is scientific stupidity at its worst.
I used to believe that humans caused most of the extinctions, but there doesn't seem to be a growing consensus among scientists for that to be the case. I have a hard time believing that there were ever enough humans in the world to have killed every last large animal. There is a growing body of evidence that there have been several great cataclysms in the past which seem to coincide with mass extinctions. I'll reserve my judgement a bit longer before I start calling credentialed scientists "stupid."
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:12 am

Landrew

I am from New Zealand, and it happened recently enough that there is no doubt as go how the mass extinction happened. Our native people, the Maori, who were stone age technology, wiped out over 50 species of native bird, including the tallest bird ever to have lived. We have remains of bones charred in cooking fires.

Similar mass extinctions happened in Hawaii and the Caribbean recently enough to ensure no doubt. The theories of other causes proliferate as we look further into the past. For example, the arrival of humans in Australia was followed by the extinction of over 100 megafauna species. But some academics refuse to accept the obvious.

My personal theory as to why a small group of scientists persist in doing the head in the sand thing, is that it is political correctness. It is not considered couth to accuse indigenous peoples of such terrible ecological crimes, especially since there is this idiotic politically correct theory that indigenous peoples live "in harmony with " nature.

I have my own politically correct theory. It is that people are people, regardless of whether they are indigenous primitives or modern technology users.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:25 am

I don't think there's nearly as much controversy about humans causing extinctions of large flightless birds on islands, as there is about the mass extinction of megafauna during the Younger Dryas over 11,500 years ago. More and more evidence is coming to light that there were some cataclysmic events in those times, and the more we learn, the easier it is to believe that humans weren't responsible.

The short-faced bear was probably so formidable to humans that many scientists believe humans did not settle into North America until after it went extinct.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:54 am

Landrew

African men hunted adult lions with short spears and shields. The Clovis people in North America hunted mammoths with stone tipped spears. There is no way a bear, no matter how fearsome, stopped those guys.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:24 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:17 am
More recent extinctions, including the late Pleistocene, IMHO, are likely to be human driven. It is no coincidence that mass extinctions occurred in North America, Australia, Madagascar, New Zealand, Hawaii, the Caribbean etc just after humans moved in.
I agree with you Lance, but, I would have preferred to use the starting phrase as, "MOST" of the recent extinctions, including the late Pleistocene....
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
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Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:55 am

landrew wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:25 am
I don't think there's nearly as much controversy about humans causing extinctions of large flightless birds on islands, as there is about the mass extinction of megafauna during the Younger Dryas over 11,500 years ago. More and more evidence is coming to light that there were some cataclysmic events in those times, and the more we learn, the easier it is to believe that humans weren't responsible.

The short-faced bear was probably so formidable to humans that many scientists believe humans did not settle into North America until after it went extinct.
Landrew,

I agree broadly with your post, but, not that "cataclysmic events in those times caused mass extinction of megafauna during the Younger Dryas over 11,500 years ago."

There are other reasons. Highlighted by studies such as:

Many large animal species have a high risk of extinction. This is usually thought to result simply from the way that species traits associated with vulnerability, such as low reproductive rates, scale with body size. In a broad-scale analysis of extinction risk in mammals, we find two additional patterns in the size selectivity of extinction risk. First, impacts of both intrinsic and environmental factors increase sharply above a threshold body mass around 3 kilograms. Second, whereas extinction risk in smaller species is driven by environmental factors, in larger species it is driven by a combination of environmental factors and intrinsic traits. Thus, the disadvantages of large size are greater than generally recognized, and future loss of large mammal biodiversity could be far more rapid than expected.

Reference:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16037416
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:53 pm

Some interesting relevant references:
The loss of alleles via genetic drift has two effects: First, it increases homozygosity; consequently, it has an effect similar to that seen for inbreeding. The simultaneous effect of an increase in inbreeding and the loss of alleles via genetic drift as a result of a decrease in Ne can cause severe genetic problems.
Genetic drift - FAO
www.fao.org › docrep

Our results suggest that this insect herbivore is not likely to adapt to a novel host species in a time-scale of 20 generations despite sufficient genetic variation and that genetic drift disrupted the response to selection.

Our results emphasize the need to include species that are somewhat specialized in their host use in studies of the evolution of specialization. They also highlight the power of genetic drift in interfering with population response to selection even in populations that still have ample quantitative genetic variation.

Link:

Genetic drift precluded adaptation of an insect seed predator to a novel host ...
https://journals.plos.org › plosone › article

Although mass extinctions is the undeniable cause for the demise of a sizeable number of major taxa, we show here that clades escaping them go extinct because of the widespread tendency of evolution to produce increasingly specialised, sympatric, and geographically restricted species over time.

PMID: 27507121 PMCID: PMC4978992 DOI: 10.1038/srep30965
[Indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

The resource-use hypothesis proposed by E.S. Vrba predicts that specialist species have higher speciation and extinction rates than generalists because they are more susceptible to environmental changes and vicariance....

.....Our results are consistent with the predictions of the resource-use hypothesis, which foretells a higher speciation rate of lineages restricted to a single biome (BSI = 1) and higher frequency of specialist species in biomes that underwent high degree of contraction and fragmentation during climatic cycles.

PMID:
22174888
PMCID:
PMC3236210
DOI:
10.1371/journal.pone.0028749
[Indexed for MEDLINE]
Free PMC Article
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:40 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:54 am
Landrew

African men hunted adult lions with short spears and shields. The Clovis people in North America hunted mammoths with stone tipped spears. There is no way a bear, no matter how fearsome, stopped those guys.
Lance,

Lions, Tigers, Elephants and Rhinoceros like megafauna are living in India, along with a denser population of humans as compared to that in the Americas.
Humans may have populated Americas at the most 40 to 50 thousand years ago.
But,
Report of new ages from the excavated site of Attirampakkam, where paleomagnetic measurements and direct 26Al/10Be burial dating of stone artifacts were done, positioned the earliest Acheulian levels as no younger than 1.07 million years ago (Ma), with a pooled average age of 1.51 ± 0.07 Ma.These results reveal that, during the Early Pleistocene, India was already occupied by hominins fully conversant with an Acheulian technology including handaxes and cleavers among others, ..While,..
Results of a phylogeographic study indicate that all living tigers had a common ancestor 72,000–108,000 years ago.

So,
These data are in favour of Landrew's opinion, when he says that "I used to believe that humans caused most of the extinctions, but there doesn't seem to be a growing consensus among scientists for that to be the case. I have a hard time believing that there were ever enough humans in the world to have killed every last large animal."
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:07 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:54 am
Landrew

African men hunted adult lions with short spears and shields. The Clovis people in North America hunted mammoths with stone tipped spears. There is no way a bear, no matter how fearsome, stopped those guys.
I'm not the one defending that claim, but it's not hard to believe:
https://www.reddit.com/r/natureismetal/ ... ate_these/
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:53 am

Maunas

There is no suggestion that megafauna extinctions were rapid. It is more a slow picking away at the population over a long time. The first humans, for example, in North America, were there some thousands of years before the final extinction of the mammoths (and a number of other beasts). But all those species that died off after humans arrived had survived for a million years or more before humans, including living through massive climate changes.

I have a personal speculation for why humans were so good at killing them.
When a species lives without natural enemies of a particular kind, they lose their fear of that kind of predator. I saw this personally in the Galapagos, where no mammalian predator had been around for the entire existence of those islands. The wild life mostly has no fear of humans. I stood within less than a meter to sea lions, marine iguanas, land iguanas, and various large birds. Normally, they would have been terrified of me as a potential large predator, but not there.

In the same way, I suspect that mammoths, giant sloths, and all the other megafauna wiped out between 10,000 and 15,000 years ago in North America would have had no fear of humans. The hunters would have walked right up to them before driving a stone tipped spear deep into their vitals.
Ditto for the megafauna wiped out in Australia 50,000 to 60,000 years ago just after the first humans arrived. And for a number of other sites.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:48 pm

From the discussion above i think that we can conclude that:

Whenever an apex consumer migrates to a new ecosystem/economic system it directly or indirectly causes extinction of many entities.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:53 pm

But,
Of all the great extinctions, the one that ended the Triassic is the most enigmatic. No clear cause has been found.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:58 pm

There's no question that humans can disrupt an ecosystem. That we know. But what we don't always know how this occurs. By all indications, the numbers of humans were small, therefore I doubt that hunting was directly responsible. We have many indications of abrupt climate change happening in the Younger Dryas about 11,500 years ago, as well as a possible comet or meteoroid bombardment as well. I'm much more inclined to believe that humans didn't play the primary role in the mass extinctions of megafauna that happened in North America at that time.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:14 pm

Landrew

Get this fact clear in your mind.
Those megafauna that went extinct in North America after humans arrived had ALREADY survived nine major glacial periods and nine major interglacial changes. Far more potent climate change than the small events you are talking about. They proved they were NOT vulnerable to climate change. Only after humans arrived did they go extinct.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:14 pm

Also,
From the references I had posted regarding "genetic drifts", above:

There seems to be some hint that, further evolution of an extremely long lived super specialized species, by evolving new adaptations for surviving in a changing environment, is difficult. This makes it prone to quick extinction.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:15 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:14 pm
Landrew

Get this fact clear in your mind.
Those megafauna that went extinct in North America after humans arrived had ALREADY survived nine major glacial periods and nine major interglacial changes. Far more potent climate change than the small events you are talking about. They proved they were NOT vulnerable to climate change. Only after humans arrived did they go extinct.
I'm not sure anyone could say with much certainty whether the megafauna went extinct before or after humans arrived in numbers.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:24 pm

Landrew's point seems valid, Lance
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:37 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:14 pm
Landrew

Get this fact clear in your mind.
Those megafauna that went extinct in North America after humans arrived had ALREADY survived nine major glacial periods and nine major interglacial changes. Far more potent climate change than the small events you are talking about. They proved they were NOT vulnerable to climate change. Only after humans arrived did they go extinct.
The Pleistocene (2.55 mya - present) saw extinctions of megafauna throughout. Sure the ones which survived until the Younger Dryas survived glaciations and interglaciations; but the ones which didn't make it to the YD died before humans came along, even though they had survived glaciations and interglaciations too.

Immediately following the extinction of mammoths (from whatever causes) there was a massive shift from grasslands to birch forests.

The sad fact is that megafauna have been going extinct ever since megafauna first evolved. The Mesozoic saw 4 or 5 waves of giant Sauropods which flourished and died out, each die-off followed by a new group which evolved from roughly rhino-sized Sauropods.

Really, the only thing which distinguishes the megafauna die-offs during the human era is that the extinct species have not been replaced by new ones evolving from smaller ones.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:02 pm

Natural selection favors larger herbivorous fauna against predation when food is plentiful. Predators also increase in size under these dynamics. This continues while the ecosystem is stable, but when ecosystems crash (take your pick of reasons) the large animals are the first to die off, given that they require plentiful and large herbivores for food. Smaller animals have the advantage in stressed environments.

I can't imaging humans hunting the mammoths to extinction. I don't believe there's evidence that early humans ever existed in the high populations sufficient to have wiped out the megafauna. The population of humans in Africa is much higher, but elephants have never been wiped out by hunting. I think it's plausible to assume that megafauna populations were greatly reduced by natural events, and the humans finished off the survivors, but even this is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:31 pm

Very few North American megafauna species went extinct before humans arrived though I can see why some people would think otherwise. The time of human arrival keeps getting pushed back further and further. At one stage it was thought that they arrived 12,000 years ago. New data indicates that 20,000 is more likely. We still do know for sure.

In Australia, we do not know for sure when humans first arrived, but 60,000 years ago appears likely, plus or minus a bit. The massive megafauna extinction happened after that.

In my country, we are clearer on the arrival of the native people. It was about 1200AD. The extinctions of the larger birds was complete within 150 years.

I have a personal theory as to why idiots ignore the obvious conclusion. It is because there is a politically correct belief about the noble savage living in harmony with nature. Total bull SHITE! People are just people, whether indigenous stone age natives or modern white skinned technology users. We all are capable of environmental crimes.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:50 am

Lance,

I think, if we found that small groups of humans had reached the Americas more than 20,000 years before present, then your opinion of humans being the major factor in causing megafaunal extinctions becomes more difficult to accept.
Because;

1) America is a large continent so megafaunal population would have been large, and so, small groups of humans slowly picking away at their populations would have given them sufficient time to evolve fear of humans.

In this scenario when humans in large numbers arrived into the continents thousands of years later, the hunters would not have been able to walk right up to them before driving a store tipped spear deep into their vitals.
For example, in continental Australia even an army with machine guns could not finish of the Emu's.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:46 am

Maunas

Small numbers of people would be quite enough.
A. It took thousands of years to make the megafauna extinct, which is consistent with a small number of people hunting. But substantial evolution can take tens of thousands.
B. North America is but one example. As I pointed out before, the same thing happened all over the globe.
C. The survivors, like bison and deer, were fast moving animals that had already learned to run to avoid wolves. The big slow animals, that had never learned fear, died out. The smaller, faster, more fearful animals survived. Emus fit into that category also, though their predator was more likely to have been marsupial lion and tasmanian tiger.

My question is why you find this so unacceptable? The logic is all in favor of human driven extinctions, and against climate change driven. After all, the human arrival is so damn consistent, whereas climate change correlates with extinctions very badly. And you have to ask why previous, much more drastic climate change did not kill them off. Only after humans arrived did mass extinctions occur.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:01 am

The First Nations buffalo hunters were wont to stampede entire herds of buffalo over cliffs so they could harvest a small percentage of the animals. There were still millions of buffalo when the Europeans came along.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:26 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:01 am
The First Nations buffalo hunters were wont to stampede entire herds of buffalo over cliffs so they could harvest a small percentage of the animals. There were still millions of buffalo when the Europeans came along.
I wouldn't underestimate the amount of work that it took to stampede some buffalo off a cliff. I'm guessing it may have taken weeks or months of careful planning and execution. I don't think those animals were all quite as dumb as to follow the whole herd off a cliff.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:40 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:31 pm
Very few North American megafauna species went extinct before humans arrived though I can see why some people would think otherwise. The time of human arrival keeps getting pushed back further and further. At one stage it was thought that they arrived 12,000 years ago. New data indicates that 20,000 is more likely. We still do know for sure.

In Australia, we do not know for sure when humans first arrived, but 60,000 years ago appears likely, plus or minus a bit. The massive megafauna extinction happened after that.

In my country, we are clearer on the arrival of the native people. It was about 1200AD. The extinctions of the larger birds was complete within 150 years.

I have a personal theory as to why idiots ignore the obvious conclusion. It is because there is a politically correct belief about the noble savage living in harmony with nature. Total bull SHITE! People are just people, whether indigenous stone age natives or modern white skinned technology users. We all are capable of environmental crimes.
All you have is correlation = causation for all but NZ.

It now appears humans were around in Siberia for at least 100,000 years and everything was hunky dory until the Younger Dryas, and suddenly they killed everything off?
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:20 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:46 am
Maunas

Small numbers of people would be quite enough.
A. It took thousands of years to make the megafauna extinct, which is consistent with a small number of people hunting. But substantial evolution can take tens of thousands.
B. North America is but one example. As I pointed out before, the same thing happened all over the globe.
C. The survivors, like bison and deer, were fast moving animals that had already learned to run to avoid wolves. The big slow animals, that had never learned fear, died out. The smaller, faster, more fearful animals survived. Emus fit into that category also, though their predator was more likely to have been marsupial lion and tasmanian tiger.

My question is why you find this so unacceptable? The logic is all in favor of human driven extinctions, and against climate change driven. After all, the human arrival is so damn consistent, whereas climate change correlates with extinctions very badly. And you have to ask why previous, much more drastic climate change did not kill them off. Only after humans arrived did mass extinctions occur.
Lance,


Megafaunal populations
collapsed from 14,800 to 13,700 years ago, well before the final extinctions and during the Bolling-
Allerod warm period. Human impacts remain plausible, but the decline predates Younger Dryas cooling.
And the extraterrestrial impact event proposed to have occurred, occurred 12,900 years ago..

It is difficult to find evidence that supports either claim on whether humans hunted the ground sloths to extinction. Removing large amounts of meat from large mammals such as the ground sloth requires no contact with the bones; tool-inflicted damage to bones is a key sign of human interaction with the animal.

Short faced Bears may have been killed, while they hibernated in their caves. This could have provided meat as well as shelter for the hunter gatherer people.BUT;
The livers of the Bears would have been fatally toxic.

Megalonyx, genus of ground sloth was widespread in North America and had survived the last glaciation, when so many other large mammals had already been extinct.
The last ground sloths in North America belonging to Nothrotheriops died so recently that their subfossil dung has remained undisturbed in some caves. One of the skeletons, found in a lava tube (cave) at Aden Crater, adjacent to Kilbourne Hole, New Mexico, still had skin and hair preserved, and is now at the Yale Peabody Museum.

Americas have human artifacts along with the extinct bones of the animals predating 12,000 B.P. BUT,
The Clovis artifacts used by Paleoindians have been found only in the New World, not in Siberia.


The Pleistocene Period started about 1.8 million years ago, but ended just 10,000 years ago with the last ice age.
It was around that time that mammoths, the sabre-toothed cat, ground sloths and Native American horses and camels all became less populous and eventually became extinct. A total of 34 megafaunal genera species went extinct.

North America's, Pleistocene-Holocene de-glaciation 18 to 6 thousand years ago was marked by massive biotic upheaval, including species migration and reorganization of terrestrial communities, the rise and decline of plant com-
munities without modern analogs, and increased
biomass burning. Individualistic plant species’
responses to climate change transformed the com-
position and distribution of vegetation formations,
with rates of change highest between 13 and 10 thousand years ago.


I THINK THESE SPECIES AND THEIR ECOSYSTEMS DIED DUE TO AGING.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:22 am

Guys

We are all in the last Ice Age which has lasted the best part of two million years. During that time, there have been glacial and interglacial periods. The current interglacial permitted people to move from Asia to North America. All those extinctions happened AFTER humans arrived. However the prior interglacial was actually stronger than the one during which those extinctions happened, yet all those animals strangely failed to go extinct. Until people arrived.

This is something that has been repeated many times. The elephant bird and other animals in Madagascar went extinct just after people arrived from Africa. An estimated 1000 species of birds went extinct on Pacific islands after Polynesians arrived. The Irish elk went extinct after humans arrived in Ireland. Over 100 large animals went extinct in Australia just after people arrived. And yet you tell me humans had nothing to do with those extinctions. Well duh. Double duh !

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:40 am

Lance,

The Younger Dryas, Older Dryas, and, the Oldest Dryas are phenomena encountered during all de-glaciations.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:51 am

People try to find terrestrial, extraterrestrial and biotic reasons for mega extinctions; They find correlation with some thing to satisfy their curiosity.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:09 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:37 pm
Really, the only thing which distinguishes the megafauna die-offs during the human era is that the extinct species have not been replaced by new ones evolving from smaller ones.
Probably, because all the mega fauna have been replaced by a mega numbered, and, mega social fauna,.... with many more mega qualities. A mega consumer which has not left enough food and space for any other fauna to become mega.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:21 pm

maunas wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:09 am
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:37 pm
Really, the only thing which distinguishes the megafauna die-offs during the human era is that the extinct species have not been replaced by new ones evolving from smaller ones.
Probably, because all the mega fauna have been replaced by a mega numbered, and, mega social fauna,.... with many more mega qualities. A mega consumer which has not left enough food and space for any other fauna to become mega.
Stable ecosystems build a diversity of organisms. When significant changes occur to the ecosystem, extinctions occur, and diversity suffers.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:22 pm

It has been said that once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, but three times is enemy action.

Mass extinctions following the arrival of humans has happened numerous times, and you guys are still claiming it is coincidence. Talk about deliberate blindness. Wow !!

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:36 pm

Lance,
Mass extinction events have been happening even when hominids were not there.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:45 am

Although extinction is a natural phenomenon, it occurs at a natural “background” rate of about one to five species per year. Scientists estimate we're now losing species at 1,000 to 10,000 times the background rate, with literally dozens going extinct every day
The Extinction Crisis - Center for Biological Diversity
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:36 am

Maunas

Certainly mass extinctions happened without hominids. But probably not in the last 60,000 years.

On how many species are being lost right now, the simple fact is that no one knows. The species KNOWN to go extinct add up to between 5 and 20 per year. That is, the ones that have been described scientifically, and later found to be gone. However, there are an unknown number of species that have never been so described, and go extinct in silence. We never knew they existed, and thus we never knew when they disappeared.

However, there are numerous people, who are into intellectual masturbation, who will seriously tell you, drawing on the depths of their extreme ignorance, just how many species are dying out. My advice is to treat such idiotic mouthings as the nonsense it is.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:46 am

Lance,
I doubted as to how The Extinction Crisis- Centre could decide the Extinction rate so definitely when we do not know the number of species. That's why I edited out the link seeking for donations after I had posted.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.