Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Creationism, Intelligent Design, and Evolution.
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maunas
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:55 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:30 pm
Evolution is not entropy.
Evolution is genetic changes that increase survival and reproduction. Entropy is not a useful concept when considering evolution.

Maunas
You get entropy the wrong way around. When there is more life and more biodiversity, that's a reduction in entropy. Life is organisation, meaning a drop in entropy. Entropy is disorganisation, such as heat dissipating into a larger environment. Entropy is a trend that continues all around us, but life is a small local reversal of that trend. Life uses energy to increase organisation, such as manufacturing the larger molecules needed for survival. So life reduces entropy.

Let me point out, though, from a person who has a university degree in biology, and who talks with biologists rather often, that entropy is not normally considered in biology. It is not a useful concept. It is useful in thermodynamics, but not in studying life. Biologists more often study energy transfer. My advice for you, if you want to understand evolution and life processes, is to get off this entropy bandwagon, and look instead at energy.
Lance,

You have repeatedly adviced me to get rid of the word "entropy" while trying to understand evolution and life processes. Since the concept of entropy in biology is confusing people, I now intend to take your advice and will avoid it's use. But, before using other words, like energy, order, disorder, complexity, simplicity etc. I will define, what I mean by them in simple English. Thanks for guiding me.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:42 pm

First let us decide whether the following statement is perfectly correct or not:

Building units selected for comparing the complexity of any two structures to determine the magnitude of their orders, should be of equivalent calculabity.This becomes possible by selecting exactly the same fundamental unit which is present in both the structures being compared.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:50 pm

Entropy is a simple, measurable property of a system with units of J/K. It is unrelated to whether or not something is alive. By how many J/K does the entropy of the closed system of the body of a creature increase or decrease upon its death? I'll allow you to pick whichever creature makes your calculations easier.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:09 pm

maunas wrote:Why Does Life Evolve?
As explained in the above post, Evolution of life is a clear-cut expression of the second law of thermodynamics operating.
No. It is due to normal consistent physics and the processes of Scientific Darwinian evolution.

The valency and properties of the carbon atom does not change according to the current entropy of the universe. :D

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:16 pm

Just to follow up on Matthew's post.
Evolution mostly results in greater organisation, meaning lower entropy. The second law states that systems trend to higher entropy. So evolution goes in the opposite direction to that predicted by the second law.

But of course, entropy is not a useful concept in biology, and should not be applied to evolution.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:35 am

maunas wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:42 pm
First let us decide whether the following statement is perfectly correct or not:

Building units selected for comparing the complexity of any two structures to determine the magnitude of their orders, should be of equivalent calculabity.This becomes possible by selecting exactly the same fundamental unit which is present in both the structures being compared.
Neither Matthew nor Lance or Landrew or Gord or any other member has till now commented on the clarity of expression or any errors in the above statement. Should I deem it correct and clear then?
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:54 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:16 pm
Just to follow up on Matthew's post.
Evolution mostly results in greater organisation, meaning lower entropy. The second law states that systems trend to higher entropy. So evolution goes in the opposite direction to that predicted by the second law.

But of course, entropy is not a useful concept in biology, and should not be applied to evolution.
Decide what should be considered HIGHER organization and evolution without using the term "entropy".
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:17 pm

maunas wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:35 am


Neither Matthew nor Lance or Landrew or Gord or any other member has till now commented on the clarity of expression or any errors in the above statement. Should I deem it correct and clear then?
It would help if I actually understood what you were trying to say. Is it too much to ask, that you try simple and understandable English ?

The concept of higher organisation and evolution is also not very useful.

What do you say about an organism that, after 4 billion years of evolution, reverts to a simpler form and structure ? For example, a leading theory of virus structure is that they are actually parasitic bacteria that evolved a much simpler form.

Most people would say that humans represent a higher form, but the loblolly pine, compared to humans, has seven times as many genes in its genome. Does this make it a higher form ?* No, of course not. It is better to avoid misleading concepts like higher evolution.

*Well. Apart from altitude, that is.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:24 pm

A highly developed organism for example, with good eyesight loses its eyes in the darkness of a cave over thousands of generations. We may have had hands on our feet and a fur coat at one time, but we lost them. Evolution is not necessarily a progression from the less complex to the more complex.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:04 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:16 pm
Just to follow up on Matthew's post.
Evolution mostly results in greater organisation, meaning lower entropy. The second law states that systems trend to higher entropy. So evolution goes in the opposite direction to that predicted by the second law.

But of course, entropy is not a useful concept in biology, and should not be applied to evolution.
Imagine, two structures in the same environment, let us call one of the structures as structure 1 and the other structure as structure 2.
If compared to structure 1, structure 2 is called more Complex, then it means, structure 2 is having less probability of getting spontaneously synthesized, by virtue of it being made up of more interconnected parts, and, also, more different types of parts, as compared to structure 1. So, structure 2 becomes more difficult to analyze. I call structure 2 as having greater calculability. I think, you will call structure 2 as having greater organization than structure 1.
According to you, Life mostly results in greater organization, by using energy to increase organisation, hence, it represents a local reversal of the general trend of disorganization, or dissipation of heat into a larger environment, going on all around us, which is called entropy. And so life reduces entropy by consuming energy
from it's environment.

Points of confusion:
1)Since, earth is a living planet, In the closed system of sun and earth, available energy can never increase, so (because energy is conserved) it's complement,, entropy, can never decrease.
But, available energy in this system, of earth and the sun together, energy decreases more due to nuclear fusion reactions taking place in the sun to form helium from hydrogen, than, that decreased by forming living things on the earth. Entropy (of earth and sun system} has INCREASED due to formation of a GREATER organization helium from hydrogen on the sun, while it has DECREASED by forming a GREATER organization, of life from inorganic materials, on the earth. SO IN THE TOTAL SYSTEM OF EARTH AND THE SUN, THOUGH GREATER ORGANISATIONS ARE FORMING IN BOTH PLACES, STILL TOTAL ORDER IS SAID TO BE DECREASING, WHY?
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:01 am

maunas wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:04 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:16 pm
Just to follow up on Matthew's post.
Evolution mostly results in greater organisation, meaning lower entropy. The second law states that systems trend to higher entropy. So evolution goes in the opposite direction to that predicted by the second law.

But of course, entropy is not a useful concept in biology, and should not be applied to evolution.
Imagine, two structures in the same environment, let us call one of the structures as structure 1 and the other structure as structure 2.
If compared to structure 1, structure 2 is called more Complex, then it means, structure 2 is having less probability of getting spontaneously synthesized, by virtue of it being made up of more interconnected parts, and, also, more different types of parts, as compared to structure 1. So, structure 2 becomes more difficult to analyze. I call structure 2 as having greater calculability. I think, you will call structure 2 as having greater organization than structure 1.
According to you, Life mostly results in greater organization, by using energy to increase organisation, hence, it represents a local reversal of the general trend of disorganization, or dissipation of heat into a larger environment, going on all around us, which is called entropy. And so life reduces entropy by consuming energy
from it's environment.

Points of confusion:
1)Since, earth is a living planet, In the closed system of sun and earth, available energy can never increase, so (because energy is conserved) it's complement,, entropy, can never decrease.
But, available energy in this system, of earth and the sun together, energy decreases more due to nuclear fusion reactions taking place in the sun to form helium from hydrogen, than, that decreased by forming living things on the earth. Entropy (of earth and sun system} has INCREASED due to formation of a GREATER organization helium from hydrogen on the sun, while it has DECREASED by forming a GREATER organization, of life from inorganic materials, on the earth. SO IN THE TOTAL SYSTEM OF EARTH AND THE SUN, THOUGH GREATER ORGANISATIONS ARE FORMING IN BOTH PLACES, STILL TOTAL ORDER IS SAID TO BE DECREASING, WHY?
It seems to me that greater incalculability lies in the microscopic than in the macroscopic world. What we think of as having greater organization is in fact simpler and less organized.
Randomness creates and randomness destroys.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:10 am

Maunas

I pointed out several times that life represents lower entropy within a wider system of increasing entropy. Overall the entropy of the Earth and the solar system is increasing. Life, however, is a local form of reducing entropy even though the larger scale system has increasing entropy.

This happens because life uses energy to increase organisation. In any wider system, entropy always increases. But on the small scale, a life form can show reducing entropy within that wider system.

But let me repeat, the concept of entropy is not useful in biology. It does not reveal useful data. Studying energy flow is much more revealing. Concentrating on entropy gets you nowhere.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:32 pm

maunas wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:52 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:58 am
maunas wrote: Moskowitz, Clara (29 March 2012). "Life's Building Blocks May Have Formed in Dust Around Young Sun". Space.com.
Soooooo you have dropped your claim that Earth is a closed system. OK. Fair enough. That's how science progresses.

Can you now set out your claim in clear English using the common meaning of words.
Protoplanet of earth was an open system to the young sun and cosmic radiations at it's outer periphery of it's dead zone, and, also received energy from it's super hot nucleus at the inner periphery of it's middle dead zone. So, the inner and outer peripheries of the middle dead zone of proto earth can be considered local open territories, but the middle dead zone should be considered as a majorly closed system. So, random molecular structures formed at the outer and inner peripheries of the proto- earth were shielded from destruction by high energy when they diffused and precipitated in to the middle dead zone. Here they accumulated in high concentrations and interacted with each other to form proto- biotic systems essential for the formation of proto- life on proto-earth.
Since life formed and exists in a closed universe, it symbolizes higher disorder/entropy.
Nuclear reactors use exothermic fission to generate power. However, examples of endothermic fission exist, as well as endothermic fusion. All elements heavier than Iron are thought to have been produced by stepwise endothermic fusion reactions in supernovas (exothermic fusion ends with the element Iron).
So, greater organization, such as origin, growth, maintenance, and, evolution of diversity of life, should be expected to involve, fluctuations in the magnitude of available energy in it's environment.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:48 pm

maunas wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:32 pm
maunas wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:52 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:58 am
maunas wrote: Moskowitz, Clara (29 March 2012). "Life's Building Blocks May Have Formed in Dust Around Young Sun". Space.com.
Soooooo you have dropped your claim that Earth is a closed system. OK. Fair enough. That's how science progresses.

Can you now set out your claim in clear English using the common meaning of words.
Protoplanet of earth was an open system to the young sun and cosmic radiations at it's outer periphery of it's dead zone, and, also received energy from it's super hot nucleus at the inner periphery of it's middle dead zone. So, the inner and outer peripheries of the middle dead zone of proto earth can be considered local open territories, but the middle dead zone should be considered as a majorly closed system. So, random molecular structures formed at the outer and inner peripheries of the proto- earth were shielded from destruction by high energy when they diffused and precipitated in to the middle dead zone. Here they accumulated in high concentrations and interacted with each other to form proto- biotic systems essential for the formation of proto- life on proto-earth.
Since life formed and exists in a closed universe, it symbolizes higher disorder/entropy.
Nuclear reactors use exothermic fission to generate power. However, examples of endothermic fission exist, as well as endothermic fusion. All elements heavier than Iron are thought to have been produced by stepwise endothermic fusion reactions in supernovas (exothermic fusion ends with the element Iron).
So, greater organization, such as origin, growth, maintenance, and, evolution of diversity of life, should be expected to involve, fluctuations in the magnitude of available energy in it's environment.
Energy is discarded from the system at approximately the same rate as it's absorbed. The sun's energy is assimilated by photosynthesizers, and passed up the food chain until it's eventually released out to space as heat energy. Sometimes it's held up for long periods. An example of this is fossil fuels. The energy is tied up until it is either mined (by us and burned) or it erodes out of the earth and decays due to weathering. The net result is always the same; life "borrows" energy for a time, but then gives it back. The fluctuation isn't significant. The net energy transfer is always going to be zero.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:13 pm

What landrew is describing is energy flow which is vital to life and to ecology. Entropy is not a useful concept in relation to biology.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:17 pm

maunas wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:32 pm
maunas wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:52 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:58 am
maunas wrote: Moskowitz, Clara (29 March 2012). "Life's Building Blocks May Have Formed in Dust Around Young Sun". Space.com.
Soooooo you have dropped your claim that Earth is a closed system. OK. Fair enough. That's how science progresses.

Can you now set out your claim in clear English using the common meaning of words.
Protoplanet of earth was an open system to the young sun and cosmic radiations at it's outer periphery of it's dead zone, and, also received energy from it's super hot nucleus at the inner periphery of it's middle dead zone. So, the inner and outer peripheries of the middle dead zone of proto earth can be considered local open territories, but the middle dead zone should be considered as a majorly closed system. So, random molecular structures formed at the outer and inner peripheries of the proto- earth were shielded from destruction by high energy when they diffused and precipitated in to the middle dead zone. Here they accumulated in high concentrations and interacted with each other to form proto- biotic systems essential for the formation of proto- life on proto-earth.
Since life formed and exists in a closed universe, it symbolizes higher disorder/entropy.
Nuclear reactors use exothermic fission to generate power. However, examples of endothermic fission exist, as well as endothermic fusion. All elements heavier than Iron are thought to have been produced by stepwise endothermic fusion reactions in supernovas (exothermic fusion ends with the element Iron).
So, greater organization, such as origin, growth, maintenance, and, evolution of diversity of life, should be expected to involve, fluctuations in the magnitude of available energy in it's environment.
Undirected solar and proto-earth's core energy starts to do the chemical and thermal entropy work in polypetide, sugar and lipid synthesis. But, the coding or sequencing work is done when these organic molecules diffuse in to the low entropy territory from the internal and external high entropy peripheries of proto-earth into it's shielded cooler low entropy dead middle territories. The dead territory consumed and selected those organic proto biotic systems, which further interacted to form proto-life. SO THE ORIGIN OF LIFE EXPERIMENTS IN LAB FAIL BECAUSE, THE INITIAL SIMPLE ORGANIC MOLECULES PRODUCED BY EXPOSING INORGANIC MOLECULES TO HIGH ENTROPY ARE NOT PASSED THROUGH A PROPER SEQUENCE OF LOW ENTROPY CONDITIONS CREATING THE RIGHT FLUCTUATION IN THE ENTROPY OF THEIR ENVIRONMENT..
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:31 pm

Correction in the above post's last para in bold letters:

SO, THE ORIGIN OF LIFE EXPERIMENTS IN LAB FAIL BECAUSE, THE INITIAL SIMPLE ORGANIC MOLECULES PRODUCED BY EXPOSING INORGANIC MOLECULES TO HIGH DISORDERED/ HIGH ENERGY ENVIRONMENT, ARE NOT PASSED THROUGH A PROPER SEQUENCE OF LOW DISORDER/ENERGY CONDITIONS CREATING THE RIGHT FLUCTUATION IN THE CONFIGURATIONAL ENTROPY OF THE PREBIOTIC SYSTEMS.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:38 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:13 pm
What landrew is describing is energy flow which is vital to life and to ecology. Entropy is not a useful concept in relation to biology.
The separation of natural sciences into biology, chemistry and physics is not necessary.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:14 pm

Again, Maunas, you stroll down Fallacy Street by insisting on applying entropy where it is not appropriate. If you want to follow that style of reasoning about abiogenesis, it is far more enlightening to refer to energy flows than entropy.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:01 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:48 pm
maunas wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:32 pm
maunas wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:52 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:58 am
maunas wrote: Moskowitz, Clara (29 March 2012). "Life's Building Blocks May Have Formed in Dust Around Young Sun". Space.com.
Soooooo you have dropped your claim that Earth is a closed system. OK. Fair enough. That's how science progresses.

Can you now set out your claim in clear English using the common meaning of words.
Protoplanet of earth was an open system to the young sun and cosmic radiations at it's outer periphery of it's dead zone, and, also received energy from it's super hot nucleus at the inner periphery of it's middle dead zone. So, the inner and outer peripheries of the middle dead zone of proto earth can be considered local open territories, but the middle dead zone should be considered as a majorly closed system. So, random molecular structures formed at the outer and inner peripheries of the proto- earth were shielded from destruction by high energy when they diffused and precipitated in to the middle dead zone. Here they accumulated in high concentrations and interacted with each other to form proto- biotic systems essential for the formation of proto- life on proto-earth.
Since life formed and exists in a closed universe, it symbolizes higher disorder/entropy.
Nuclear reactors use exothermic fission to generate power. However, examples of endothermic fission exist, as well as endothermic fusion. All elements heavier than Iron are thought to have been produced by stepwise endothermic fusion reactions in supernovas (exothermic fusion ends with the element Iron).
So, greater organization, such as origin, growth, maintenance, and, evolution of diversity of life, should be expected to involve, fluctuations in the magnitude of available energy in it's environment.
Energy is discarded from the system at approximately the same rate as it's absorbed. The sun's energy is assimilated by photosynthesizers, and passed up the food chain until it's eventually released out to space as heat energy. Sometimes it's held up for long periods. An example of this is fossil fuels. The energy is tied up until it is either mined (by us and burned) or it erodes out of the earth and decays due to weathering. The net result is always the same; life "borrows" energy for a time, but then gives it back. The fluctuation isn't significant. The net energy transfer is always going to be zero.
Landrew

Without fluctuations of energy levels on earth, origin, evolution and diversity of life would not have been possible. Just think, what happens when ice ages come? Would modern man have been their without the sahaara pump? What happens when mass extinctions take place followed by megaevolutionary bursts of diversity. Any form of turbulence and disbalance, due to any factor, wether of earthly, or, cosmic origin, triggers a fluctuation in the energy available for survival and growth of life on earth. Some environmental changes are subtle, and accumulate over time, precipitating a tremendous change in biota, after crossing the threshold of ecosystem's compensatory capacities.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:04 pm

Animals evolve regardless of the environment. Major changes in the environment may speed things up, but without them things will go on. There's no "schedule".
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:25 pm

maunas wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:01 pm
Landrew

Without fluctuations of energy levels on earth, origin, evolution and diversity of life would not have been possible. Just think, what happens when ice ages come? Would modern man have been their without the sahaara pump? What happens when mass extinctions take place followed by megaevolutionary bursts of diversity. Any form of turbulence and disbalance, due to any factor, wether of earthly, or, cosmic origin, triggers a fluctuation in the energy available for survival and growth of life on earth. Some environmental changes are subtle, and accumulate over time, precipitating a tremendous change in biota, after crossing the threshold of ecosystem's compensatory capacities.
Of course energy fluctuates in a biological system, but it always zeroes-out eventually. Energy is not the driving force behind evolution. Neither does it directly drive diversity or cause evolution. Increased energy in the system causes increased biomass, increased populations, increased growth, but it has no direct influence on the course of evolution. A decrease in energy (i.e. colder climates, reduced sunlight, etc.) intensifies natural selection, indirectly spurring evolution. Energy is essentially irrelevant to causing evolution.

One thing drives evolution, and that is natural selection.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:45 pm

landrew wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:25 pm
maunas wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:01 pm
Landrew

Without fluctuations of energy levels on earth, origin, evolution and diversity of life would not have been possible. Just think, what happens when ice ages come? Would modern man have been their without the sahaara pump? What happens when mass extinctions take place followed by megaevolutionary bursts of diversity. Any form of turbulence and disbalance, due to any factor, wether of earthly, or, cosmic origin, triggers a fluctuation in the energy available for survival and growth of life on earth. Some environmental changes are subtle, and accumulate over time, precipitating a tremendous change in biota, after crossing the threshold of ecosystem's compensatory capacities.
Of course energy fluctuates in a biological system, but it always zeroes-out eventually. Energy is not the driving force behind evolution. Neither does it directly drive diversity or cause evolution. Increased energy in the system causes increased biomass, increased populations, increased growth, but it has no direct influence on the course of evolution. A decrease in energy (i.e. colder climates, reduced sunlight, etc.) intensifies natural selection, indirectly spurring evolution. Energy is essentially irrelevant to causing evolution.

One thing drives evolution, and that is natural selection.
Random drift is more important most of the time. Natural selection generally struts it's stuff when there is rapid environmental change. (Punctuated equilibrium).
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:12 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:45 pm
landrew wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:25 pm
maunas wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:01 pm
Landrew

Without fluctuations of energy levels on earth, origin, evolution and diversity of life would not have been possible. Just think, what happens when ice ages come? Would modern man have been their without the sahaara pump? What happens when mass extinctions take place followed by megaevolutionary bursts of diversity. Any form of turbulence and disbalance, due to any factor, wether of earthly, or, cosmic origin, triggers a fluctuation in the energy available for survival and growth of life on earth. Some environmental changes are subtle, and accumulate over time, precipitating a tremendous change in biota, after crossing the threshold of ecosystem's compensatory capacities.
Of course energy fluctuates in a biological system, but it always zeroes-out eventually. Energy is not the driving force behind evolution. Neither does it directly drive diversity or cause evolution. Increased energy in the system causes increased biomass, increased populations, increased growth, but it has no direct influence on the course of evolution. A decrease in energy (i.e. colder climates, reduced sunlight, etc.) intensifies natural selection, indirectly spurring evolution. Energy is essentially irrelevant to causing evolution.

One thing drives evolution, and that is natural selection.
Random drift is more important most of the time. Natural selection generally struts it's stuff when there is rapid environmental change. (Punctuated equilibrium).
That's true. To use "environmental change" in a broader sense, any change in the environment can spur increased natural selection. When continents join, massive changes occur. New habitats cause diversity for some organisms and extinction for others. The horse is thought to have evolved in North America, and when it joined with Eurasia the horse became extinct (some debate exists) but survived in Eurasia. Many other massive changes to the ecosystems of both continents occurred. Energy and Entropy had nothing to do with it. Some of these massive changes happened during the ice ages, and others happened during the warm interglacial periods.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:18 pm

Energy plays a role only to the extent that living organisms need it to survive. Beyond that, it is irrelevant to evolution.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:25 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:04 pm
Animals evolve regardless of the environment. Major changes in the environment may speed things up, but without them things will go on. There's no "schedule".
Gawdzilla,

Evolution of biotically diverse life forms, will not continue indefinitely, if the environment does not change biotically as well as abiotically (No migrations from and immigrations in to the local ecosystem occur, and no permanent physical changes are induced in the environment, by the activity of biotic as well as abiotic systems in a locally closed ecosystem.) only till a stable ecological order is not reached between the various life forms. Mega evolution will slow down into macro, and then micro evolution, and finally after a long time even genetic drifts will disappear and evolution will grind to a halt. Practically, the whole of the ecosystem then starts behaving like a single organism. The constitution of the genetic pools of all the species in that isolated ecosystem get fixed. In such an ecosystem even slight changes can lead to a chain of extinctions culminating into a mass extinction in that ecosystem.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:40 pm

maunas wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:25 pm
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:04 pm
Animals evolve regardless of the environment. Major changes in the environment may speed things up, but without them things will go on. There's no "schedule".
Gawdzilla,

Evolution of biotically diverse life forms, will not continue indefinitely, if the environment does not change biotically as well as abiotically (No migrations from and immigrations in to the local ecosystem occur, and no permanent physical changes are induced in the environment, by the activity of biotic as well as abiotic systems in a locally closed ecosystem.) only till a stable ecological order is not reached between the various life forms. Mega evolution will slow down into macro, and then micro evolution, and finally after a long time even genetic drifts will disappear and evolution will grind to a halt. Practically, the whole of the ecosystem then starts behaving like a single organism. The constitution of the genetic pools of all the species in that isolated ecosystem get fixed. In such an ecosystem even slight changes can lead to a chain of extinctions culminating into a mass extinction in that ecosystem.
Mutations don't have anything to do with equilibria. Drift isn't driven by homogeneity, nor the lack of it. In spite of all the protections afforded to the less advantaged, humans are still evolving.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:14 pm

maunas wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:25 pm
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:04 pm
Animals evolve regardless of the environment. Major changes in the environment may speed things up, but without them things will go on. There's no "schedule".
Gawdzilla,

Evolution of biotically diverse life forms, will not continue indefinitely, if the environment does not change biotically as well as abiotically (No migrations from and immigrations in to the local ecosystem occur, and no permanent physical changes are induced in the environment, by the activity of biotic as well as abiotic systems in a locally closed ecosystem.) only till a stable ecological order is not reached between the various life forms. Mega evolution will slow down into macro, and then micro evolution, and finally after a long time even genetic drifts will disappear and evolution will grind to a halt. Practically, the whole of the ecosystem then starts behaving like a single organism. The constitution of the genetic pools of all the species in that isolated ecosystem get fixed. In such an ecosystem even slight changes can lead to a chain of extinctions culminating into a mass extinction in that ecosystem.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:03 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:40 pm
maunas wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:25 pm
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:04 pm
Animals evolve regardless of the environment. Major changes in the environment may speed things up, but without them things will go on. There's no "schedule".
Gawdzilla,

Evolution of biotically diverse life forms, will not continue indefinitely, if the environment does not change biotically as well as abiotically (No migrations from and immigrations in to the local ecosystem occur, and no permanent physical changes are induced in the environment, by the activity of biotic as well as abiotic systems in a locally closed ecosystem.) only till a stable ecological order is not reached between the various life forms. Mega evolution will slow down into macro, and then micro evolution, and finally after a long time even genetic drifts will disappear and evolution will grind to a halt. Practically, the whole of the ecosystem then starts behaving like a single organism. The constitution of the genetic pools of all the species in that isolated ecosystem get fixed. In such an ecosystem even slight changes can lead to a chain of extinctions culminating into a mass extinction in that ecosystem.
Mutations don't have anything to do with equilibria. Drift isn't driven by homogeneity, nor the lack of it. In spite of all the protections afforded to the less advantaged, humans are still evolving.
Oleg,

Mutants of the sense you are talking about, get deleted from the population, if the species is part of a closed ecosystem, that has reached equilibria. It is analogous to mutant somatic cells which are produced and eliminated every day in our bodies.
Rest of the part of your comment is applicable to an ecosystem which has not yet reached equilibria.
Humans are too young a species. Moreover they modify their ecosystem by artificial selection of other species, thus preventing the ecosystem in which they live, from naturally organising itself analogous to a single organism. At least, at present, humans are a great destabilizing factor for the biosphere, preventing it from reaching maturity and aging and mass extinction.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:51 pm

Evolution never stops. It can slow down if the environment is stable, but never stops.

Nor is evolution simple. It is multi factorial, influenced by many things. It is mostly natural selection, but not only. It is also sexual selection, genetic drift, and even human artificial selection. Plus more. Energy is one of many factors driving the process.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:42 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:51 pm
Evolution never stops. It can slow down if the environment is stable, but never stops.

Nor is evolution simple. It is multi factorial, influenced by many things. It is mostly natural selection, but not only. It is also sexual selection, genetic drift, and even human artificial selection. Plus more. Energy is one of many factors driving the process.
Lance,

Thank you for highlighting the importance of energy as a driver of evolution. Infact, appendages and behaviour for procurement of energy, are mandatory for evolution to happen in living things.


But, i do not agree with your opening statement that evolution never stops.

There are numerous examples of living things still surviving, which once belonged to an ecosystem the members of which had stopped evolving. That is why these belong to era's which faced mass extinctions.

Some examples are:

1) Cyanobacteria: mentioned in the op of this post. Their genomes stopped evolving 3.5 billion years ago.

2) Ctenophores; The first animals. Since 700 million years ago.

3) Coelcanths; Since the time of dinosaurs. Traced as far back as 80 million years ago.

4) Callorhinchus milii; The elephant sharks (actually not sharks but Chimaeras). Their DNA has almost not changed since 420 million years, that is since about 200 million years before the emergence of the first dinosaurs.

5) Horseshoe Crabs: Since 450 mya.

6) Ginko Biloba plant's DNA got fixed 200 million years ago.

7) Cycads: Since 65 to 230 mya

8) Nautilus: Marine mollusks stopped evolving 500 million years ago.

There are scores of more organisms that have been confirmed by scientists, to be dating back to previous mass extinction periods, present even today without any significant change in their genomes.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:20 pm

Some life forms become so well-established in a niche that they are not displaced for many millions of years. Trilobites are an exception. Evolution never stops, even though it can create stable forms. Ancient fossils may resemble modern forms superficially, but we can't know how the genomes differ.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:45 pm

landrew wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:20 pm
Some life forms become so well-established in a niche that they are not displaced for many millions of years. Trilobites are an exception. Evolution never stops, even though it can create stable forms. Ancient fossils may resemble modern forms superficially, but we can't know how the genomes differ.
https://www.nature.com/news/why-sharks- ... es-1.14487
Elephant shark's genome — the first of a cartilaginous fish — exposes early evolution of vertebrates.

Brendan Borrell
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Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:37 am

maunas wrote: Evolution of biotically diverse life forms, will not continue indefinitely, if the environment does not change biotically as well as abiotically
That is absolute crap and shows your total ignorance of how evolution works.

I gave up when you were trying to make entropy a factor in evolution. You were unable to write any coherent theory for evolution that included entropy as a factor.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:41 am

landrew wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:20 pm
Evolution never stops, even though it can create stable forms.
You got it. It "looks the same" but isn't. The population still must contain a variety of new and old alternative genes or one new virus will kill off the entire species. :D

Another weird thing you learn at university is the mutation rate of a species is also evolved. :D

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:34 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:41 am
landrew wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:20 pm
Evolution never stops, even though it can create stable forms.
You got it. It "looks the same" but isn't. The population still must contain a variety of new and old alternative genes or one new virus will kill off the entire species. :D

Another weird thing you learn at university is the mutation rate of a species is also evolved. :D
True that all surviving ancient organisms, contain in their population's gene pool a certain amount of genetic variability. This helps them to get over crisises
in their environments. Including, infections as well as rising and falling temperatures, atmospheric compositions, as well as other biotic and abiotic fluctuations. But, these species are highly specialised to their niches. So, due to continuous genetic drift during their very long period of settlement in their niches, they loose their genetic potential for radical changes in their anatomy, morphology and behaviour. So they simply can not evolve away from their millions or billions of years old ancestors, after reaching a fitness peak in their niches and loosing their potential of further genetic modifications by loosing genes required for radical modifications due to genetic drifts.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:40 am

maunas wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:34 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:41 am
landrew wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:20 pm
Evolution never stops, even though it can create stable forms.
You got it. It "looks the same" but isn't. The population still must contain a variety of new and old alternative genes or one new virus will kill off the entire species. :D

Another weird thing you learn at university is the mutation rate of a species is also evolved. :D
True that all surviving ancient organisms, contain in their population's gene pool a certain amount of genetic variability. This helps them to get over crisises
in their environments. Including, infections as well as rising and falling temperatures, atmospheric compositions, as well as other biotic and abiotic fluctuations. But, these species are highly specialised to their niches. So, due to continuous genetic drift during their very long period of settlement in their niches, they loose their genetic potential for radical changes in their anatomy, morphology and behaviour. So they simply can not evolve away from their millions or billions of years old ancestors, after reaching a fitness peak in their niches and loosing their potential of further genetic modifications by loosing genes required for radical modifications due to genetic drifts.
PS: For Matthew; Genetic drift symbolizes "Entropy."
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:49 pm

Maunas

You cannot, with accuracy, make statements about the genomes of ancient versus modern, since we cannot sequence ancient genomes. But the ones we can monitor show continuous change. Even something like a coelocanth is not the same as its ancient ancestors, since fossils show small differences.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:50 pm

maunas wrote: PS: For Matthew; Genetic drift symbolizes "Entropy."
No. It represents random mutations. If the bad mutations are not fatal on their own, the environment then causes them to be removed from the ongoing gene pool. Therefore this directly contradicts your claim entropy causes evolution.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:57 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:50 pm
maunas wrote: PS: For Matthew; Genetic drift symbolizes "Entropy."
No. It represents random mutations. If the bad mutations are not fatal on their own, the environment then causes them to be removed from the ongoing gene pool. Therefore this directly contradicts your claim entropy causes evolution.
Genetic drift:
It's variation in the relative frequency of different genotypes in a small population, owing to the chance disappearance of particular genes as individuals die or do not reproduce. Entropy is not the appropriate word to describe this. Genes can disappear for other reasons besides mutations. In a small population, genes can disappear as a result of forming haploids in the process of forming both gametes in an offspring in a small population. A parent is unable to pass along all of it's genes due to the limited number of offspring.
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