Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

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maunas
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:08 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:47 pm
maunas wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:59 am

EARLY EARTH WAS SO HOT AND TURBULENT THAT IF SOLAR ENERGY COULD OVERWHELM MOST OF THE LOCALIZED ENTROPIC REACTIONS, EARTH WOULD NOT HAVE COOLED DOWN AND LIFE COULD NOT HAVE ORIGINATED.
I would consider this statement dubious. We still do not truly know what early Earth was like. Avoid speculation.
The following reference should be reliable::

Dalrymple, G. Brent (2001). "The age of the Earth in the twentieth century: a problem (mostly) solved". Special Publications, Geological Society of London. 190 (1): 205–221. Bibcode:2001GSLSP.190..205D. doi:10.1144/GSL.SP.2001.190.01.14.

Earth formed around 4.54 billion years ago, approximately one-third the age of the universe, by accretion from the solar nebula.

The inner Solar System, the region of the Solar System inside 4 AU, WAS TOO WARM for volatile molecules like water and methane to condense, so the planetesimals that formed there could only form from compounds with high melting points, such as metals (like iron, nickel, and aluminium) and rocky silicates. These rocky bodies would become the terrestrial planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars). These compounds are quite rare in the Universe, comprising only 0.6% of the mass of the nebula, so the terrestrial planets could not grow very large.

Much of the Earth was molten because of frequent collisions with other bodies which led to extreme volcanism. While Earth was in its earliest stage (Early Earth), a giant impact collision with a planet-sized body named Theia is thought to have formed the Moon. Over time, the Earth cooled, causing the formation of a solid crust, and allowing liquid water on the surface.[
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:13 pm

Still not certain, Maunas. There are very few rocks surviving that old to show if they were molten or not. The collision origin of the moon is still a hypothesis, remaining to be demonstrated true or false by further testing. All you said MAY be correct, or may not.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:01 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:13 pm
Still not certain, Maunas. There are very few rocks surviving that old to show if they were molten or not. The collision origin of the moon is still a hypothesis, remaining to be demonstrated true or false by further testing. All you said MAY be correct, or may not.
Absolutely. Maunas seems to have too much certainty about the early earth. The fog of time is very thick when you attempt to speculate so far back in time. It's all very speculative, and theories about the nascent earth are changing all the time.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:23 am

maunas wrote: DO NOT CONFUSE LACK OF WORK WITH LACK OF ENERGY.
Matthew Ellard wrote: How is the sun's radiation a "lack of energy"?
maunas wrote:The answer for the second question is like: When heat flows from a hotter to a cooler body, and, they reach thermal equilibrium after some time, no more work seems to be continuing, but, the bodies do contain energy.
You seem to be claiming two conflicting things at once. Earth cools and thus water condenses from the atmosphere. Floating at the top of the water using sunlight are the first photosynthetic blue-green algae. You them make a claim about early life and entropy as a closed system, while simultaneously acknowledging Earth was an open system and life used sunlight.

I ask again. Can you set out your claim, in clear English, using the common meaning of scientific terms.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:40 am

Matthew, i am simply saying that after the origin of sun's energy capturing very efficient biotic systems like photosynthesis, and, the earth getting densely covered by them, the earth becomes more open to sun. So much so, that it starts behaving majorly as an open system. The net entropy of earth which was increasing during it's' prebiotic phase now starts to decrease. Most probably the sea's of petroleum and lithospheres of coal on earth are a testimony to this.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:36 am

maunas a week ago wrote:Universes may be more or less in entropy. If the comparative entropy is high, then, mutation and adaptation rates can be higher, if reproductive rates too remain high. Such species may evolve faster.
WHERE IS THE CONTRADICTION?
AS FINALLY THE RATE OF EVOLUTION TRICKLES DOWN TO AN OPTIMUM RATE OF ENTROPY.
.....and yet we somehow ended up here
maunas yesterday wrote:Matthew, i am simply saying that after the origin of sun's energy capturing very efficient biotic systems like photosynthesis, and, the earth getting densely covered by them, the earth becomes more open to sun.
I can't work out what this sentence means. The same amount of sunlight hits the earth in any scenario.
maunas yesterday wrote:So much so, that it starts behaving majorly as an open system.
...but it had to already be an open system for photosynthesis to evolve in the first place. You are going around in circles.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Gord » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:04 pm

maunas wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:32 am
Gord wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:23 am
maunas wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:12 am
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:04 pm
maunas wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:15 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:18 am
maunas wrote: You rightly said that earths biosphere has to be considered an open system because it every day receives the decay from it's sun on which life on earth feeds to save itself, as well as grow against the increasing entropy of the universe. BUT, OLEG, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT THAT I AM AT PRESENT TALKING OF AN EARTH WHICH HAS NO BIOSPHERE. IT WAS AT THAT TIME PREBIOTIC, SO , IT''S CONTENTS WERE EXPERIENCING THE INCREASING ENTROPY OF A CLOSED SYSTEM.


The sun was radiating on Earth, all through Earth's history, even before life evolved. Why are you claiming it was a closed system?
Prebiotic earth was majorly a closed system because photosynthesis to capture the sun's energy and then using it counter the genral increase in entropy had not yet come in to existence. Without plants the earth will majorly behave as a closed system. Oleg said "BIOSPHERE".
The lithosphere isn't closed either.

No amount of flopping will make these systems where solar energy won't overwhelm any localized entopic reactions.

PS . Entropy is the lack of energy available to do work. By definition, it can't cause anything. There's no energy available to do so.
When the number of possible arrangements of the state of your system can no more be increased, a state of homogeneity is reached, so, no more work is available to be done, THIS IS A STATE OF MAXIMUM ENTROPY/sometimes this is understood as a state of maximum disooder. DO NOT CONFUSE LACK OF WORK WITH LACK OF ENERGY.
You're wrong. Planets that receive energy from a nearby star are not closed systems.
Sorry Gord, but, you are wrong. The solar system (including the sun obviously) form a closed system. The universe as a whole is a closed system, that is why we experience an arrow of time. This should be clear from the second law of thermodynamics.
The universe as a whole is a closed system, but parts within the universe are not locally closed because energy is flowing between them. Energy flowing from the stars is being added to the planets, and so those stars and planets are not themselves closed systems.

Parts of a closed system can be considered open systems themselves if energy within the larger closed system can leave and enter those parts.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:11 pm

I will answer the new un-answered posts above after I am finished with some more urgent personal priorities.

For the time being, if interested, please comment on the following statement:

Life could simply be a "reaction precipitate" of the second law of thermodynamics, for leading a decrease in the increasing entropy of the universe.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:25 pm

maunas wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:11 pm
I will answer the new un-answered posts above after I am finished with some more urgent personal priorities.

For the time being, if interested, please comment on the following statement:

Life could simply be a "reaction precipitate" of the second law of thermodynamics, for leading a decrease in the increasing entropy of the universe.
For entropy to increase, something had to create the order in the first place. Stellar dust and rocks form into nice, smooth spheres in orbits that become more circular over time. Rivers sort a chaotic mix of rubble into neat layers of silt, sand and gravel. Even salad dressing separates out when you leave it sit. Life itself organizes random molecules into increasingly complex structures. Entropy is only one half the equation; based on what we can observe, order seems to be slowly gaining the upper hand.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:17 pm

Landrew

On the largest scales, entropy is always increasing. It is only on a small scale where energy is obtained from an entropy increasing process, that a local reduction in entropy can be achieved. For example, energy from the sun driving life processes.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:46 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:25 pm
maunas wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:11 pm
I will answer the new un-answered posts above after I am finished with some more urgent personal priorities.

For the time being, if interested, please comment on the following statement:

Life could simply be a "reaction precipitate" of the second law of thermodynamics, for leading a decrease in the increasing entropy of the universe.
For entropy to increase, something had to create the order in the first place. Stellar dust and rocks form into nice, smooth spheres in orbits that become more circular over time. Rivers sort a chaotic mix of rubble into neat layers of silt, sand and gravel. Even salad dressing separates out when you leave it sit. Life itself organizes random molecules into increasingly complex structures. Entropy is only one half the equation; based on what we can observe, order seems to be slowly gaining the upper hand.
Order, predictability, simplicity, less complexity means more organized, or, less number of possible arrangements of the state of your system. This is a condition of less information, that is less homogeneous, a state of disequilibrium, and therefore more work is available to be done, this is a state of minimum entropy or minimum disorder. This state has maximum potential energy, least confusion, a state of no motion, and so requiring no space and no time. No particles, no relativity, a state of pure inertia, pure mass, unmeasurable, dimensionless SINGULARITY.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:06 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:13 pm
Still not certain, Maunas. There are very few rocks surviving that old to show if they were molten or not. The collision origin of the moon is still a hypothesis, remaining to be demonstrated true or false by further testing. All you said MAY be correct, or may not.
Moskowitz, Clara (29 March 2012). "Life's Building Blocks May Have Formed in Dust Around Young Sun". Space.com.

Protoplanetary disks have radii up to 1000 AU, and only their innermost parts reach temperatures above 1000 K. They are very often accompanied by jets. Protoplanetary disks have been observed around several young stars in our galaxy. Recent observations by the Hubble Space Telescope have shown proplyds and planetary disks to be forming within the Orion Nebula.

*[Gammie, Charles (1996). "Layered Accretion In T Tauri Disks". Astrophysical Journal. 457: 355. Bibcode:1996ApJ...457..355G. doi:10.1086/176735.*

*It is believed that these disks consist of a turbulent envelope of plasma, also called the active zone, that encases an extensive region of quiescent gas called the dead zone.]*
Dust grains shield the mid-plane of the disk from energetic radiation from outer space
that creates a dead zone in which the MRI (magnetorotational instability) no longer operates.
Based on recent computer model studies, the complex organic molecules necessary for life may have formed in the protoplanetary disk of dust grains surrounding the Sun before the formation of the Earth. According to the computer studies, this same process may also occur around other stars that acquire planets.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:58 am

maunas wrote: Moskowitz, Clara (29 March 2012). "Life's Building Blocks May Have Formed in Dust Around Young Sun". Space.com.
Soooooo you have dropped your claim that Earth is a closed system. OK. Fair enough. That's how science progresses.

Can you now set out your claim in clear English using the common meaning of words.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:09 am

maunas wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:06 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:13 pm
Still not certain, Maunas. There are very few rocks surviving that old to show if they were molten or not. The collision origin of the moon is still a hypothesis, remaining to be demonstrated true or false by further testing. All you said MAY be correct, or may not.
Moskowitz, Clara (29 March 2012). "Life's Building Blocks May Have Formed in Dust Around Young Sun". Space.com.

Protoplanetary disks have radii up to 1000 AU, and only their innermost parts reach temperatures above 1000 K. They are very often accompanied by jets. Protoplanetary disks have been observed around several young stars in our galaxy. Recent observations by the Hubble Space Telescope have shown proplyds and planetary disks to be forming within the Orion Nebula.

*[Gammie, Charles (1996). "Layered Accretion In T Tauri Disks". Astrophysical Journal. 457: 355. Bibcode:1996ApJ...457..355G. doi:10.1086/176735.*

*It is believed that these disks consist of a turbulent envelope of plasma, also called the active zone, that encases an extensive region of quiescent gas called the dead zone.]*
Dust grains shield the mid-plane of the disk from energetic radiation from outer space
that creates a dead zone in which the MRI (magnetorotational instability) no longer operates.
Based on recent computer model studies, the complex organic molecules necessary for life may have formed in the protoplanetary disk of dust grains surrounding the Sun before the formation of the Earth. According to the computer studies, this same process may also occur around other stars that acquire planets.
Consider the weight of the theories you seem to be presenting as "proof." Some of them have not been very well supported, and are highly speculative. You are welcome to be as certain as you like, but you can't expect the same degree of certitude from others.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:52 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:58 am
maunas wrote: Moskowitz, Clara (29 March 2012). "Life's Building Blocks May Have Formed in Dust Around Young Sun". Space.com.
Soooooo you have dropped your claim that Earth is a closed system. OK. Fair enough. That's how science progresses.

Can you now set out your claim in clear English using the common meaning of words.
Protoplanet of earth was an open system to the young sun and cosmic radiations at it's outer periphery of it's dead zone, and, also received energy from it's super hot nucleus at the inner periphery of it's middle dead zone. So, the inner and outer peripheries of the middle dead zone of proto earth can be considered local open territories, but the middle dead zone should be considered as a majorly closed system. So, random molecular structures formed at the outer and inner peripheries of the proto- earth were shielded from destruction by high energy when they diffused and precipitated in to the middle dead zone. Here they accumulated in high concentrations and interacted with each other to form proto- biotic systems essential for the formation of proto- life on proto-earth.
Since life formed and exists in a closed universe, it symbolizes higher disorder/entropy.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:03 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Can you now set out your claim in clear English using the common meaning of words.
maunas wrote: Since life formed and exists in a closed universe, it symbolizes higher disorder/entropy.
You need to actually offer an explanation. for what you are claiming. I could say "Since dogs evolved in a closed universe, dogs symbolize higher disorder/ entropy" which really doesn't mean anything.

You really need to compose and set out a falsifiable hypothesis

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:02 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:03 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:Can you now set out your claim in clear English using the common meaning of words.
maunas wrote: Since life formed and exists in a closed universe, it symbolizes higher disorder/entropy.
You need to actually offer an explanation. for what you are claiming. I could say "Since dogs evolved in a closed universe, dogs symbolize higher disorder/ entropy" which really doesn't mean anything.

You really need to compose and set out a falsifiable hypothesis
Undirected solar and proto-earth's core energy starts to do the chemical and thermal entropy work in polypetide, sugar and lipid synthesis. But, the coding or sequencing work is done when these organic molecules diffuse in to the low entropy territory from the internal and external high entropy peripheries of proto-earth into it's shielded cooler low entropy dead middle territories. The dead territory consumed and selected those organic proto biotic systems, which further interacted to form proto-life. SO THE ORIGIN OF LIFE EXPERIMENTS IN LAB FAIL BECAUSE, THE INITIAL SIMPLE ORGANIC MOLECULES PRODUCED BY EXPOSING INORGANIC MOLECULES TO HIGH ENTROPY ARE NOT PASSED THROUGH A PROPER SEQUENCE OF LOW ENTROPY CONDITIONS CREATING THE RIGHT FLUCTUATION IN THE ENTROPY OF THEIR ENVIRONMENT..
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:42 pm

The behaviour of living things and complex organic molecules is less frequently predictable than non-living things and inorganic molecules. The unpredictability seen at the quantum physics level is always so, their randomness is an exactly predictable behaviour, but,living things are neither always easily predictable nor unpredictable.
SO CHAOS/DIORDER/ENTROPY SHOULD BE CONSIDERED HIGHER IN LIVING THINGS. The same is true for complex organic molecules. UNPREDICTABILITY INCREASES WITH IN CREASE IN COMPLEXITY, SO DOES ENTROPY.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:59 pm

Life is an organization. That is why it is not a higher order. Low entropy is always in greater disequilibrium than high entropy, that is why the universe originated with the "BIG BANG", from the highest ordered/lowest entropy entity we have determined till now, "the singularity" which inflated into this universe.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:14 pm

More organelles in eukaryotic cells can be arranged in more number of ways than the less number of organelles in prokaryotic cells, so, prokaryotic cells demonstrate lower entropy.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:56 pm

maunas wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:14 pm
More organelles in eukaryotic cells can be arranged in more number of ways than the less number of organelles in prokaryotic cells, so, prokaryotic cells demonstrate lower entropy.
I think you are saying that eukaryotic cells are more ordered than prokaryotic cells, therefore at lower entropy. I accept that, but I don't understand the relevance to the discussion. Life lowers entropy, but at the end of each life cycle, entropy takes over as the organism disintegrates. Evolution merely makes the cycle larger as complexity increases. One big catastrophic event could wipe everything back to total entropy at any time.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:56 pm

landrew wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:56 pm
maunas wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:14 pm
More organelles in eukaryotic cells can be arranged in more number of ways than the less number of organelles in prokaryotic cells, so, prokaryotic cells demonstrate lower entropy.
I think you are saying that eukaryotic cells are more ordered than prokaryotic cells, therefore at lower entropy. I accept that, but I don't understand the relevance to the discussion. Life lowers entropy, but at the end of each life cycle, entropy takes over as the organism disintegrates. Evolution merely makes the cycle larger as complexity increases. One big catastrophic event could wipe everything back to total entropy at any time.
Landrew,
I am saying that prokaryotic cells are made up of less number of organelles than eukaryotic cells in general. Therefore, the number of possible arrangements of the elements of a prokaryotic cell will be less as compared to a eukaryotic cell which is composed of comparatively more number of organelles.
Since, entropy is the number of possible arrangements of the state of their systems, THE EUKARYOTIC CELL IS MORE DISORDERED OR REPRESENTING A HIGHER DEGREE OF ENTROPY THAN THE PROKARYOTIC CELL. THAT IS SAYING, THAT, " ENTROPY INCREASES WITH INCREASING COMPLEXITY."
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:34 pm

I think Maunas is hung up on entropy. It is better to look at life in other ways, such as utilisation of energy.

Entropy means disorganisation . The sun, for example, is becoming less organized through spitting out more and more of its substance into gases and photons flying out in a random manner into the wider universe. The sun is moving to greater entropy, greater disorganisation.

Life is lower entropy, due to the fact that it uses energy to gain organisation. But the overall system that includes life is one of increasing entropy. The reducing entropy of life is a small part of a greater system that has increasing entropy.

Eukaryotes are more organized than prokaryotes, so can be said to be of lower entropy. But this is not a terribly useful way of viewing life. Entropy is more useful as a concept in thermodynamics. Not biology. Better to say that eukaryotes are more evolved. More able to use energy in more sophisticated ways.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:12 pm

Further continuing,
Consciousness is a direct effect of the universal second law of thermodynamics, that entropy is increasing im our closed universe. This is because as stated in the previous post, " human brain being highly complex, is a fountainhead of randomness in known universe, From the chaos of our brains, arise entities like consciousness, freewill, spirituality etc. Ihad discussed more on these subjects a few years back, mainly in "brain, mind and consciousness" forum and under the topic, "Is god destiny of man"?".
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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maunas
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:41 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:34 pm
I think Maunas is hung up on entropy. It is better to look at life in other ways, such as utilisation of energy.

Entropy means disorganisation . The sun, for example, is becoming less organized through spitting out more and more of its substance into gases and photons flying out in a random manner into the wider universe. The sun is moving to greater entropy, greater disorganisation.

Life is lower entropy, due to the fact that it uses energy to gain organisation. But the overall system that includes life is one of increasing entropy. The reducing entropy of life is a small part of a greater system that has increasing entropy.

Eukaryotes are more organized than prokaryotes, so can be said to be of lower entropy. But this is not a terribly useful way of viewing life. Entropy is more useful as a concept in thermodynamics. Not biology. Better to say that eukaryotes are more evolved. More able to use energy in more sophisticated ways.
Lance,
I am just curious to find out, if the second law of thermodynamics is truly a universal law then how should we view the concepts of order, disorder, complexity, simplicity, origin of life, evolution, future of life and the universe like concepts, which are important. The effort can turn out to be rubbish, but, it can also change our wofld view.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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maunas
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:04 pm

The evolution of life is evolution/progress of biological entropy.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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maunas
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common t gfhroughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:22 pm

Intelligence and life can not exist in the absence of increasing unpredictability/chaos/entropy..
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:52 pm

Maunas

Entropy can be reversed on a local scale by increasing entropy on a wider scale. Photosynthesis uses the energy of sunlight, produced by the increasing entropy of our sun, to increase small scale organisation (lower entropy), turning CO2 and water into sugar. Small scale reduction in entropy from the larger scale increase in entropy.

But as I said, entropy is not a good way to look at life. Energy transfer is more illuminating. I would suggest that you forget about entropy when considering biological evolution. The way you equate the two is seriously misleading.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:23 pm

maunas wrote: Consciousness is a direct effect of the universal second law of thermodynamics, that entropy is increasing im our closed universe. This is because as stated in the previous post, " human brain being highly complex, is a fountainhead of randomness in known universe, From the chaos of our brains, arise entities like consciousness, freewill, spirituality etc. Ihad discussed more on these subjects a few years back, mainly in "brain, mind and consciousness" forum and under the topic, "Is god destiny of man"?".
You just shot yourself in the foot through anthropocentric claims. Humans evolution makes it seem as though brains are getting more complex, over time, yet migratory birds actually evolved to "dumb down" in brain size as a trade off for longer flight duration. Some animals adapt one way......other animal adapt another way. It has nothing to do with universal entropy.

Add your Entropy claim and integrate it into the theory of evolution. You can't can you?

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:28 pm

It's easy to have tunnel vision, looking at a select few ideas and putting together a cosmology based on it. Nice and neat. But it can't be that simple. There's no hurry to reach a verdict and reject all competing ideas. I think it's better to keep an open mind because it's possible that new knowledge may seep in (as opposed to having your brains leak out).
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:51 am

Tell me, Maunas.
Your posts on entropy versus evolution. Were they your ideas, or from someone else's writings ?

Frankly, they are the sort of thing I would expect to come from a crackpot web site. So I hope they are not yours.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:39 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:51 am
Tell me, Maunas.
Your posts on entropy versus evolution. Were they your ideas, or from someone else's writings ?

Frankly, they are the sort of thing I would expect to come from a crackpot web site. So I hope they are not yours.
Lance,,
You are seeing me as a crackpot, but all thoughts are cumulative effect of knowledge gained from ones life long thoughts and experiences, as well as, knowledge gained from education. The ideas had been in my mind since years, they are not from any one particular web site.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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maunas
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:00 am

I think, Matthew Ellard, recognizes me since long. He has been prompting me to write in the forum.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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maunas
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:44 am

Human minds are not separate they communicate and interact with each other. Our minds are also effected by the minds of our dead ancestors who have left their thoughts and knowledge more or less for posterity. All our thoughts and writings are cumulative effect of the labours of countless minds. Therefore one person alone, should not be held responsible for promulgating an ideaall types crackpot or otherwise. I still stand by what i said,. I am taking my father to a cardiologist as he has had a cardiopulmonary arrest though i was able to revive him
by giving CPR in 7 minutes. I believe it was an iatrogenic effect. So i will now communicate later.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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maunas
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:17 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:52 pm
Maunas

Entropy can be reversed on a local scale by increasing entropy on a wider scale. Photosynthesis uses the energy of sunlight, produced by the increasing entropy of our sun, to increase small scale organisation (lower entropy), turning CO2 and water into sugar. Small scale reduction in entropy from the larger scale increase in entropy.

But as I said, entropy is not a good way to look at life. Energy transfer is more illuminating. I would suggest that you forget about entropy when considering biological evolution. The way you equate the two is seriously misleading.

"Many" biotic and abiotic environmental entities behave as entropy inducers or reducers. For example, the sun is able to induce an increase in the diversity and number of biota on earth. Thus an increased number of potentially possible biotic rearrangements, implying an obvious rise in the entropy of earth, occurs due to it receiving light from the sun. Hence it is prudent, for me to say, that life represents increased entropy and not a decrease as people at present understand. What we intuitively understand as complexity or call higher order is in reality greater disorder. THIS ALSO EXPLAINS THE TENDENCY OF SELF PRESERVATION, WHICH HAD TO EXIST IN PROTO BIOTIC SYSTEMS, FOR THE ORIGIN AND DEVELOPMENT OF LIFE.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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landrew
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:42 pm

After reading this article:
https://www.panspermia.org/seconlaw.htm

I came to the conclusion that entropy is irrelevant to life, because a life cycle defines a closed system, and all life eventually conforms to the second law of thermodynamics, no matter the time span, within that life cycle.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:47 pm

maunas wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:17 pm
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:52 pm
Maunas

Entropy can be reversed on a local scale by increasing entropy on a wider scale. Photosynthesis uses the energy of sunlight, produced by the increasing entropy of our sun, to increase small scale organisation (lower entropy), turning CO2 and water into sugar. Small scale reduction in entropy from the larger scale increase in entropy.

But as I said, entropy is not a good way to look at life. Energy transfer is more illuminating. I would suggest that you forget about entropy when considering biological evolution. The way you equate the two is seriously misleading.

"Many" biotic and abiotic environmental entities behave as entropy inducers or reducers. For example, the sun is able to induce an increase in the diversity and number of biota on earth. Thus an increased number of potentially possible biotic rearrangements, implying an obvious rise in the entropy of earth, occurs due to it receiving light from the sun. Hence it is prudent, for me to say, that life represents increased entropy and not a decrease as people at present understand. What we intuitively understand as complexity or call higher order is in reality greater disorder. THIS ALSO EXPLAINS THE TENDENCY OF SELF PRESERVATION, WHICH HAD TO EXIST IN PROTO BIOTIC SYSTEMS, FOR THE ORIGIN AND DEVELOPMENT OF LIFE.
Why Does Life Evolve?
As explained in the above post, Evolution of life is
a clear-cut expression of the second law of thermodynamics operating.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:30 pm

Evolution is not entropy.
Evolution is genetic changes that increase survival and reproduction. Entropy is not a useful concept when considering evolution.

Maunas
You get entropy the wrong way around. When there is more life and more biodiversity, that's a reduction in entropy. Life is organisation, meaning a drop in entropy. Entropy is disorganisation, such as heat dissipating into a larger environment. Entropy is a trend that continues all around us, but life is a small local reversal of that trend. Life uses energy to increase organisation, such as manufacturing the larger molecules needed for survival. So life reduces entropy.

Let me point out, though, from a person who has a university degree in biology, and who talks with biologists rather often, that entropy is not normally considered in biology. It is not a useful concept. It is useful in thermodynamics, but not in studying life. Biologists more often study energy transfer. My advice for you, if you want to understand evolution and life processes, is to get off this entropy bandwagon, and look instead at energy.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:19 pm

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landrew wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:42 pm
After reading this article:
https://www.panspermia.org/seconlaw.htm

I came to the conclusion that entropy is irrelevant to life, because a life cycle defines a closed system, and all life eventually conforms to the second law of thermodynamics, no matter the time span, within that life cycle.
Landrew,

Thank you very much for the link to the article on entropy. I feel that we are not correctly understanding the concept of entropy and, that is why, we have designed different kinds of entropies. In fact we have not yet understood the origin and evolution of life correctly because of it. I feel we urgently need to understand entropy correctly, so that we do not misunderstand and are able to know a whole lot of phenomena and other things.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
I am the universe.

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:40 am

Get past it, Maunas.

Entropy is NOT a useful concept in biology. To understand the origin and evolution of life, study these topics, along with biochemistry and evolutionary principles.