That Which Makes Humans Unique

Creationism, Intelligent Design, and Evolution.
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Lance Kennedy
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Re: That Which Makes Humans Unique

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:47 pm

On sheep.

The wild breed that domestic sheep came from was 'self-shearing'. In other words, the wool fell out by itself. It was bred to retain the wool till it could be shorn at the farmer's convenience.

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Re: That Which Makes Humans Unique

Post by Gord » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:21 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Gord wrote:I'm pretty sure dogs can be wilfully ignorant. They're similar to toddlers in that way.
For dogs, it's not willful ignorance, but the master's failure to establish himself as the alpha dog. If the master fails to do so, the dog believes he is the alpha and can do what he wants.
My dog would pretend not to look at me. She would look off to the side, but still be aware that I was looking at her. Sometimes we would play a game, where one of us would meet the other's eyes and the other one would intentionally look away, as if not watching. It was a game of wilful ignorance.

I've played the same game with little kids, and they behaved exactly the same way. Well, until the end -- my dog would pounce, but the kids would just laugh.
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Nikki Nyx
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Re: That Which Makes Humans Unique

Post by Nikki Nyx » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:24 pm

Gord wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Gord wrote:I'm pretty sure dogs can be wilfully ignorant. They're similar to toddlers in that way.
For dogs, it's not willful ignorance, but the master's failure to establish himself as the alpha dog. If the master fails to do so, the dog believes he is the alpha and can do what he wants.
My dog would pretend not to look at me. She would look off to the side, but still be aware that I was looking at her. Sometimes we would play a game, where one of us would meet the other's eyes and the other one would intentionally look away, as if not watching. It was a game of wilful ignorance.
It's more like instinctive behavior. Dogs feel challenged when looked in the eyes. If your dog tends to be nervous, her reaction could stem from fear of an aggressor. I should note that dogs that are comfortable with their social relationship are able to overcome their instinct. Both my dogs have no trouble looking me in the eyes. While they know I'm the alpha, they also know I would never hurt them. On the rare occasion they do their business in the house—which is always my fault—they will avoid meeting my eyes because they know they've done something wrong.
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Re: That Which Makes Humans Unique

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:27 pm

Ken Fabos wrote:Gawdzilla Sama, I don't often get involved in discussions here.
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Re: That Which Makes Humans Unique

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:04 pm

TJrandom wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Ken Fabos wrote:
Humans are the only species whose head hair continues growing through out their lifetimes.
I don't think that is true. Sheep (some domesticated varieties) keep growing wool (mammalian hair) as long as they live, including over their heads - although their lives can be shortened by not getting shorn and being incapacitated by the huge mass of wool -
OTOH, these sheep could not survive without humans. They are a living artifact.
Is that true? Without human involvement sheep would likely become extinct? Or did you mean something else...
Very few domestic strains would survive without humans - cattle, sheep, horses, dogs - some would die out, some would 'revert' (the characteristics they were bred for would disappear) to wild.
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Re: That Which Makes Humans Unique

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:32 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Ken Fabos wrote:
Humans are the only species whose head hair continues growing through out their lifetimes.
I don't think that is true. Sheep (some domesticated varieties) keep growing wool (mammalian hair) as long as they live, including over their heads - although their lives can be shortened by not getting shorn and being incapacitated by the huge mass of wool -
OTOH, these sheep could not survive without humans. They are a living artifact.
Is that true? Without human involvement sheep would likely become extinct? Or did you mean something else...
Very few domestic strains would survive without humans - cattle, sheep, horses, dogs - some would die out, some would 'revert' (the characteristics they were bred for would disappear) to wild.
Yes, I see that - but suspect it would be due to predation and not from a lack of hands-on management such as grooming, veterinarian care, food provision, etc. For example, on an island where predators are not present, I suspect that most domesticated animals would do just fine. I believe we have one such island in Japan – where horses thrive without human intervention, and in the Fukushima area, bovines seem to do just fine without humans. In mountainous areas, I have seen wild cats, but of course don`t know if they were recently dumped, or are multigenerational. Here, bears would be the only predetors, and without humans - probably dogs which might revert to pack practices.

I do agree that various bred characteristics would likely dissapear, since they are now maintained by controlled breeding.

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Re: That Which Makes Humans Unique

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:42 pm

TJrandom wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Ken Fabos wrote:
Humans are the only species whose head hair continues growing through out their lifetimes.
I don't think that is true. Sheep (some domesticated varieties) keep growing wool (mammalian hair) as long as they live, including over their heads - although their lives can be shortened by not getting shorn and being incapacitated by the huge mass of wool -
OTOH, these sheep could not survive without humans. They are a living artifact.
Is that true? Without human involvement sheep would likely become extinct? Or did you mean something else...
Very few domestic strains would survive without humans - cattle, sheep, horses, dogs - some would die out, some would 'revert' (the characteristics they were bred for would disappear) to wild.
Yes, I see that - but suspect it would be due to predation and not from a lack of hands-on management such as grooming, veterinarian care, food provision, etc. For example, on an island where predators are not present, I suspect that most domesticated animals would do just fine. I believe we have one such island in Japan – where horses thrive without human intervention, and in the Fukushima area, bovines seem to do just fine without humans. In mountainous areas, I have seen wild cats, but of course don`t know if they were recently dumped, or are multigenerational. Here, bears would be the only predetors, and without humans - probably dogs which might revert to pack practices.

I do agree that various bred characteristics would likely dissapear, since they are now maintained by controlled breeding.
Which is most of them being raised nowadays.

Cats would be ok, they are not really domesticated, anyway. Tame, but not domesticated.
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Re: That Which Makes Humans Unique

Post by Gord » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:32 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Gord wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Gord wrote:I'm pretty sure dogs can be wilfully ignorant. They're similar to toddlers in that way.
For dogs, it's not willful ignorance, but the master's failure to establish himself as the alpha dog. If the master fails to do so, the dog believes he is the alpha and can do what he wants.
My dog would pretend not to look at me. She would look off to the side, but still be aware that I was looking at her. Sometimes we would play a game, where one of us would meet the other's eyes and the other one would intentionally look away, as if not watching. It was a game of wilful ignorance.
It's more like instinctive behavior. Dogs feel challenged when looked in the eyes. If your dog tends to be nervous, her reaction could stem from fear of an aggressor. I should note that dogs that are comfortable with their social relationship are able to overcome their instinct....
Well, it was a form of play, too, which is also instinctual. But you could say the same thing about children.

When my dog used to wilfully pretend not to look at me, though, I would recognise that as "wilful ignorance", even if it was being done in a playful way.
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Re: That Which Makes Humans Unique

Post by Nikki Nyx » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:51 pm

Gord wrote:When my dog used to wilfully pretend not to look at me, though, I would recognise that as "wilful ignorance", even if it was being done in a playful way.
There are specific circumstances during which my older dog will refuse to look at me.
1. I've gone out for what, to her, is a long time, and she's pissed that I was gone so long.
2. I'm eating, and she's sitting right next to me on the off chance I'll feed her, but not actually 'begging.'
3. I'm petting her in a way that makes her uncomfortable. She dislikes being petted except for butt scratching and belly rubs. (I mean, who doesn't like those? :P )

My younger dog, OTOH, came to us at only 8 weeks old. She'll get right up in my face and stare. The only time she looks away is to look at the older dog as if to say, "I'm getting attention and you're not."
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Re: That Which Makes Humans Unique

Post by TJrandom » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:55 pm

Butt scratch and belly rubs... I`ll do without those please...

But yes - dogs, cats... butt scratch atop of the tail base, seems to be enjoyed by these critters. Not having a tail.... ;)