The Law of Urination

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The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:31 pm

much more verifiable that the Crux of the Cosmos :D

New Law of Urination: Mammals Take 20 Seconds to Pee
Posted by Carrie Arnold in Weird & Wild on October 23, 2013

Call it the other Golden Rule: Scientists have found that all mammals weighing more than 2.2 pounds (a kilogram) empty their full bladders in about 20 seconds.

Like many new parents, David Hu, a mechanical engineer at the Georgia Institute of Technology, has changed a lot of diapers. Unlike many new parents, however, these soggy diapers caused Hu to think about the physics of urination.
Image
....


http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com ... ds-to-pee/
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:41 pm

Relative diameter of urethra?
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:43 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Relative diameter of urethra?


That's what Einstein said, it's all relative. :lol:
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Major Malfunction » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:02 pm

Well then, how can my Chihuahua piss on everything within a 3km radius?
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:19 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:Well then, how can my Chihuahua piss on everything within a 3km radius?



I've been wondering that myself.....

:lol:
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:56 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:Well then, how can my Chihuahua piss on everything within a 3km radius?

'Cause they produce the stuff at about (rough estimate from results) 42 gallons/hr. It's not like filling your gas/petrol tank then driving off.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:11 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Relative diameter of urethra?


That's the best guess so far.

I thought about the "20seconds" a bit and tried to think of other reasons.

I wondered if there was some common pheromone in all animals that would be more efficient if pissed out in 20 seconds, but that was a dead end.

I thought about the animals having a quick "piss" to avoid hunters but that would lead to the quickest "wee" and not a stable 20 seconds.

I'm now wondering if any mammal can piss in 10 seconds. Perhaps 20 seconds is the fastest any mammal can piss, which brings it back to your "relative diameter of the urethra" suggestion.

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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Poodle » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:15 pm

p=md2

Looks vaguely familiar.

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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:16 pm

I think maybe it needs to be thought of even further back....e.g. why have a bladder at all, and what size?

Maybe that plays into the evolution of the law.... :D
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:40 pm

kennyc wrote:I think maybe it needs to be thought of even further back....e.g. why have a bladder at all, and what size?

Maybe that plays into the evolution of the law.... :D

You have a bladder because predators look for waste products to guide them to prey. Controlling emissions helps reduce their ability to track you.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:42 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
kennyc wrote:I think maybe it needs to be thought of even further back....e.g. why have a bladder at all, and what size?

Maybe that plays into the evolution of the law.... :D

You have a bladder because predators look for waste products to guide them to prey. Controlling emissions helps reduce their ability to track you.



Maybe, I'm not convinced though... please provide cites for support.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:49 pm

kennyc wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
kennyc wrote:I think maybe it needs to be thought of even further back....e.g. why have a bladder at all, and what size?

Maybe that plays into the evolution of the law.... :D

You have a bladder because predators look for waste products to guide them to prey. Controlling emissions helps reduce their ability to track you.



Maybe, I'm not convinced though... please provide cites for support.

No problem. I have some fossil bladders I was planning to have for supper, but this is much more noble purpose.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:53 pm

Wait, do you hear that? Is that the Navy calling?

No, I guess not, in that case I'll feel free to ignore your unsupported guesses...
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:40 pm

kennyc wrote:Wait, do you hear that? Is that the Navy calling?

No, I guess not, in that case I'll feel free to ignore your unsupported guesses...


Gawdzilla may be correct. I read the article you posted and it says the following.
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1310.3737.pdf

"The bladder evolved for a number of biological reasons reviewed by Bentley(2). In desert animals, the bladder stores water to be retrieved in time of need. In mammals, the bladder is waterproof, acting as a reservoir that can be emptied at a time of convenience. This control of urine enables animals to keep their homes sanitary and themselves inconspicuous to predators. Lastly, stored urine can be used as a defense mechanism, as one knows from picking up small rodents and pets."

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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:46 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
kennyc wrote:Wait, do you hear that? Is that the Navy calling?

No, I guess not, in that case I'll feel free to ignore your unsupported guesses...


Gawdzilla may be correct. I read the article you posted and it says the following.
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1310.3737.pdf

"The bladder evolved for a number of biological reasons reviewed by Bentley(2). In desert animals, the bladder stores water to be retrieved in time of need. In mammals, the bladder is waterproof, acting as a reservoir that can be emptied at a time of convenience. This control of urine enables animals to keep their homes sanitary and themselves inconspicuous to predators. Lastly, stored urine can be used as a defense mechanism, as one knows from picking up small rodents and pets."


(actually the article link I posted did not say that, but the paper you linked to does. :) )

The article does say: "Animals benefit from such relatively short pee breaks because such pit stops increase risk of predation, Hu noted."

I'm not doubting it it could be true, bladders to prevent predator tracking etc. I was asking for support which you have provided from the published paper. Thanks....is it REALLY that short? Sheesh!

The sanitary bit certainly makes more sense to me than the predator thing, but I suspect that is likely true as well.

If I smelled gawd piss I'd be hunting to kill. :lol:

It might also have to do with retaining urine for marking territory.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:09 pm

kennyc wrote: The sanitary bit certainly makes more sense to me than the predator thing, but I suspect that is likely true as well.
I don't think we can create a general rule one way or another. One thing I have started to understand, over time, is that organs seem to perform a multitude of functions simultaneously, some functions are significant, some insignificant and some are evolutionary legacies.

( I didn't have any luck finding a article that only discussed the evolution of the bladder.)

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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Gord » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:25 pm

It might not be about which length of pee break is best, and more about being closer to the norm. Perhaps there's a reason why you want to spend just as long peeing as everyone else.

On the other hand, perhaps a 20 second pee break is the perfect length of time. Maybe it's too short for a predator to readjust to what you're doing -- suddenly emitting a strong smell, for instance. That's gotta be distracting.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Gord » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:26 pm

...and in hindsight I suddenly have to question the entire premise. I've seen people taking 20 second pee breaks, but I've never seen a dog do it. Or a cow, or a horse. Who measured these things for the study? I don't believe it!
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:33 pm

Top predators have the 20 second pee breaks too. That suggests to me that the feature evolved long enough ago to have been present in a common ancestor. It's hard to say which of the benefits came first, and the rest are evolution taking advantage of an existing feature.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:38 pm

Was gonna chime in but gotta go! :eager:
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:46 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Was gonna chime in but gotta go! :eager:


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:18 am

kennyc wrote:Wait, do you hear that? Is that the Navy calling?

No, I guess not, in that case I'll feel free to ignore your unsupported guesses...

Why don't you google the information and prove me wrong? Or just {!#%@} off, you choose.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:19 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
kennyc wrote:Wait, do you hear that? Is that the Navy calling?

No, I guess not, in that case I'll feel free to ignore your unsupported guesses...


Gawdzilla may be correct. I read the article you posted and it says the following.
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1310.3737.pdf

"The bladder evolved for a number of biological reasons reviewed by Bentley(2). In desert animals, the bladder stores water to be retrieved in time of need. In mammals, the bladder is waterproof, acting as a reservoir that can be emptied at a time of convenience. This control of urine enables animals to keep their homes sanitary and themselves inconspicuous to predators. Lastly, stored urine can be used as a defense mechanism, as one knows from picking up small rodents and pets."

That's what comes from hanging around with people who specialize in predators.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:34 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
kennyc wrote:Wait, do you hear that? Is that the Navy calling?

No, I guess not, in that case I'll feel free to ignore your unsupported guesses...

Why don't you google the information and prove me wrong? Or just {!#%@} off, you choose.

Nah. Its you being the ignorant {!#%@}. You spout {!#%@}, you back it up. Go ahead.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:09 am

kennyc wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
kennyc wrote:Wait, do you hear that? Is that the Navy calling?

No, I guess not, in that case I'll feel free to ignore your unsupported guesses...

Why don't you google the information and prove me wrong? Or just {!#%@} off, you choose.

Nah. Its you being the ignorant {!#%@}. You spout {!#%@}, you back it up. Go ahead.

Why would I do that?
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Flash » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:15 am

I know how we can solve this. Let's do the experiments at home, measure the pee time of our spouses as well as our neighbors without being unnecessarily obtrusive, you know... and let's post it here. You go first Kenny. Do it for science.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:21 am

E.g., piss off.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:26 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
kennyc wrote:I think maybe it needs to be thought of even further back....e.g. why have a bladder at all, and what size?

Maybe that plays into the evolution of the law.... :D

You have a bladder because predators look for waste products to guide them to prey. Controlling emissions helps reduce their ability to track you.



You've yet to provide any reason for your claim, instead have resorted to personal attacks, I predict you are about to join your friends in the dark zone.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:35 am

kennyc wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
kennyc wrote:I think maybe it needs to be thought of even further back....e.g. why have a bladder at all, and what size?

Maybe that plays into the evolution of the law.... :D

You have a bladder because predators look for waste products to guide them to prey. Controlling emissions helps reduce their ability to track you.



You've yet to provide any reason for your claim, instead have resorted to personal attacks, I predict you are about to join your friends in the dark zone.

I don't respect you enough to take orders from you.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:46 am

Wikipedia about prey detection:
Detection methods may also be divided into direct detection of the prey organism itself, and indirect clues, such as the smell of its urine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prey_detection#Chemical
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:57 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
kennyc wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
kennyc wrote:I think maybe it needs to be thought of even further back....e.g. why have a bladder at all, and what size?

Maybe that plays into the evolution of the law.... :D

You have a bladder because predators look for waste products to guide them to prey. Controlling emissions helps reduce their ability to track you.



You've yet to provide any reason for your claim, instead have resorted to personal attacks, I predict you are about to join your friends in the dark zone.

I don't respect you enough to take orders from you.


You're a joke, welcome to the dark zone.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:08 am

Ye ol' enlarged prostrate will also have an effect, bet the 20 second rule doesn't apply there....that must be why predators can catch older prey easier. :lol:
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by angawawa » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:52 am

I am going to go time my peeing. We can all do it and see if we can come up with something similar. I'll try to time my cats, too, but they are notoriously sneaky about their peeing.

Also, would anyone else like to explore the meanings and history of phrases using the word piss? One I would like to know about is either English or Australian, "take the piss." I think it means to denigrate someone, but I'm not sure. "Pissed off" has always seemed strange to me.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by angawawa » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:54 am

Ok, I got 16 seconds that time.
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:57 am

angawawa wrote:I am going to go time my peeing. We can all do it and see if we can come up with something similar. I'll try to time my cats, too, but they are notoriously sneaky about their peeing.

Also, would anyone else like to explore the meanings and history of phrases using the word piss? One I would like to know about is either English or Australian, "take the piss." I think it means to denigrate someone, but I'm not sure. "Pissed off" has always seemed strange to me.


:lol:
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:59 am

angawawa wrote:Ok, I got 16 seconds that time.



Yer a fast li'l piss!

:mrgreen:

With my prostrate it's about 3 minutes.....give or take....
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:15 am

Several 20ish second cow and elephant pees on ytube... amongst other things. :shock:
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by kennyc » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:22 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Several 20ish second cow and elephant pees on ytube... amongst other things. :shock:



Golden showers! :shock:
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:17 am

kennyc wrote:You're a joke, welcome to the dark zone.

Now this idiot can't see my posts. Perfect, he won't be making stupid comments about them. :P
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Re: The Law of Urination

Post by Rob Lister » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:58 am

I've never seen any of my dogs take 20 seconds to piss. 10 seconds tops and he's pack in the house watching netflix. They can piss 20 times to my one if they want. Maybe that's what they meant to write.

Animals benefit from such relatively short pee breaks because such pit stops increase risk of predation, Hu noted. Faster urine flow may also help prevent urinary tract infections by flushing out the system.


Dogs are the predators. They can piss as long as they want.

I don't buy the urinary tract flushing either.

I think Hu is full of Hu.

New Scientist also did a write up on this, interviewing Wang, the co-author of the tripe. Here's a funny quote

It might even inspire new designs for water towers, which also pump water using the force of gravity, she says.


Sure. The Hydraulic engineers are going to study urethras to design their water towers.
Skeptic much? Sure you do.
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