Genesis is an evolutionary account

Creationism, Intelligent Design, and Evolution.
justinrapper
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by justinrapper » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:00 pm

Mr Dunsapy, after your award winning performance at the Dawkins website you are a over matched for the Skeptics here. You are forcing the Skeptics to think and that is hitting them at their weakest point. Most Skeptics accept evolution but not necessarily understand the theory. They don't expect to be challenged on the questionable science behind evolution especially on a Skeptic forum. They are more comfortable attacking creationist with the limited talking points used on most Skeptic forums. Be prepared for a disappointment.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Mr Dunsapy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:20 pm

xouper wrote:
Mr Dunsapy wrote:
xouper wrote:You have already been shown why your argument is deeply flawed. You are just trolling the forum with your nonsense.
I noticed that you did not answer this. Can you?
Yes I can. But I don't have to because you have already been shown why your argument is deeply flawed. It's not my problem that you refuse to acknowledge the flaws in your arguments.
No one here has shown any flaws, in what I have stated. Thats the point, the scientists can not either.
Even though they do not like to admit it, the bottom line is they have to say God could have created everything. They have to say that because they have nothing to say that life is possible without creation. Or that the variety of life we see, was not created. They can not prove what they say.

Yet my 3 facts of life, can not be broken, from the scientific evidence we have.
So creation and science are the same thing.
1 life comes from life. = No one has seen or recorded that life spontaneously generates itself. The scientist assume, that is what happened. But have no evidence of that.

2 Dogs have more dogs = no one expects or has recorded a dog's offspring became some other kind of animal. They assume that this happened because the hypotheses of 'evolution' has to be protected. But there is no actual scientific evidence for this.

3 there is design in life.= If I ask a scientists to make a robot of a dog, do they have to design it and put it together? Or do they just throw the materials in a corner and come back expecting it be all put together on it's own? There are also people that research life, and try to copy it so they can make it something useful for humans to use. The research and what they come up with, they say is designed, but the original is not designed.
No one has been able to break these, with scientific evidence.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:30 pm

justinrapper wrote:Mr Dunsapy, after your award winning performance at the Dawkins website you are a over matched for the Skeptics here. You are forcing the Skeptics to think and that is hitting them at their weakest point. Most Skeptics accept evolution but not necessarily understand the theory. They don't expect to be challenged on the questionable science behind evolution especially on a Skeptic forum. They are more comfortable attacking creationist with the limited talking points used on most Skeptic forums. Be prepared for a disappointment.
Talking to your sock puppet again?
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Mr Dunsapy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:55 pm

justinrapper wrote:Mr Dunsapy, after your award winning performance at the Dawkins website you are a over matched for the Skeptics here. You are forcing the Skeptics to think and that is hitting them at their weakest point. Most Skeptics accept evolution but not necessarily understand the theory. They don't expect to be challenged on the questionable science behind evolution especially on a Skeptic forum. They are more comfortable attacking creationist with the limited talking points used on most Skeptic forums. Be prepared for a disappointment.
Justin. I know what you are saying here. Most people including the scientists do not understand what they are actually saying, about the origins of life or 'evolution'.
I do think some are not interested in what the truth is, it is more about what they want to believe.
For some it is great sport to kick creationists around, as some creationists, do not known how to deal with the scientists or those that follow them. They don't like it as much when it happens to them.
I don't expect very many to actually think about it, because that is not what they want. But you know it's not what they say it is what they do,that really tells the story. Some may start to think a bit, or at least check things out, a little more carefully.
On the Dawkin's forums I had some PM and said that I gave a good stand for the creationists side of things. They were not creationist.
I talked to many scientists over there.
I would like like to do this one day with Dawkin's, but I think he is burned out of talking to creationists. Beside he has his life work, based on 'evolution'. I don't think he could change now, even if he realized he was wrong. I think that is the same with some scientists also.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Mr Dunsapy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:59 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
justinrapper wrote:Mr Dunsapy, after your award winning performance at the Dawkins website you are a over matched for the Skeptics here. You are forcing the Skeptics to think and that is hitting them at their weakest point. Most Skeptics accept evolution but not necessarily understand the theory. They don't expect to be challenged on the questionable science behind evolution especially on a Skeptic forum. They are more comfortable attacking creationist with the limited talking points used on most Skeptic forums. Be prepared for a disappointment.
Talking to your sock puppet again?
I see you have over 8,000 posts, I was wondering if they were all this informative? You must have many sock puppets here.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Poodle » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:30 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It is! It is!

It's jamalrapper's sockpuppet. He can talk to himself for hours now - especially if he gets his other sockpuppet involved too.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by xouper » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:27 pm

Mr Dunsapy wrote:
xouper wrote:
Mr Dunsapy wrote:
xouper wrote:You have already been shown why your argument is deeply flawed. You are just trolling the forum with your nonsense.
I noticed that you did not answer this. Can you?
Yes I can. But I don't have to because you have already been shown why your argument is deeply flawed. It's not my problem that you refuse to acknowledge the flaws in your arguments.
No one here has shown any flaws, in what I have stated. Thats the point, the scientists can not either.
QED

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by fromthehills » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:40 pm

Poodle wrote::lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It is! It is!

It's jamalrapper's sockpuppet. He can talk to himself for hours now - especially if he gets his other sockpuppet involved too.
Yeah, one of his first posts was thanking jr, then going on to say the same {!#%@}. Jamalrapper, justinrapper, justintime, Mr Dunsapy, are the same wacko. The Four Horseman of tripe.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:44 pm

Mr Dunsapy wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
justinrapper wrote:Mr Dunsapy, after your award winning performance at the Dawkins website you are a over matched for the Skeptics here. You are forcing the Skeptics to think and that is hitting them at their weakest point. Most Skeptics accept evolution but not necessarily understand the theory. They don't expect to be challenged on the questionable science behind evolution especially on a Skeptic forum. They are more comfortable attacking creationist with the limited talking points used on most Skeptic forums. Be prepared for a disappointment.
Talking to your sock puppet again?
I see you have over 8,000 posts, I was wondering if they were all this informative? You must have many sock puppets here.
I have 666 socket puppets.
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Gord » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:04 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Mr Dunsapy wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
justinrapper wrote:Mr Dunsapy, after your award winning performance at the Dawkins website you are a over matched for the Skeptics here. You are forcing the Skeptics to think and that is hitting them at their weakest point. Most Skeptics accept evolution but not necessarily understand the theory. They don't expect to be challenged on the questionable science behind evolution especially on a Skeptic forum. They are more comfortable attacking creationist with the limited talking points used on most Skeptic forums. Be prepared for a disappointment.
Talking to your sock puppet again?
I see you have over 8,000 posts, I was wondering if they were all this informative? You must have many sock puppets here.
I have 666 socket puppets.
I just have one, but it's a bit crusty.
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:11 pm

Rotate them every Jan. 1st.
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Gord » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:13 pm

"Them?"
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:37 pm

If you're just going to keep repeating your mantra that evolution sites not exist I'm not going to keep this up. I'll give you one more "Yes it dies, look at all of the evidence." And I'm out.
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:24 pm

https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/1 ... EJq8A2.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by justinrapper » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:32 am

Mr Dunsapy posted his 3 questions. Is there anyone on this Skeptic forum capable of offering a response or should we conclude he has the Skeptics all stumped. I am repeating his 3 points.
Yet my 3 facts of life, can not be broken, from the scientific evidence we have.
So creation and science are the same thing.
1 life comes from life. = No one has seen or recorded that life spontaneously generates itself. The scientist assume, that is what happened. But have no evidence of that.

2 Dogs have more dogs = no one expects or has recorded a dog's offspring became some other kind of animal. They assume that this happened because the hypotheses of 'evolution' has to be protected. But there is no actual scientific evidence for this.

3 there is design in life.= If I ask a scientists to make a robot of a dog, do they have to design it and put it together? Or do they just throw the materials in a corner and come back expecting it be all put together on it's own? There are also people that research life, and try to copy it so they can make it something useful for humans to use. The research and what they come up with, they say is designed, but the original is not designed.
No one has been able to break these, with scientific evidence.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Mr Dunsapy » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:50 am

justinrapper wrote:Mr Dunsapy posted his 3 questions. Is there anyone on this Skeptic forum capable of offering a response or should we conclude he has the Skeptics all stumped. I am repeating his 3 points.
Yet my 3 facts of life, can not be broken, from the scientific evidence we have.
So creation and science are the same thing.
1 life comes from life. = No one has seen or recorded that life spontaneously generates itself. The scientist assume, that is what happened. But have no evidence of that.

2 Dogs have more dogs = no one expects or has recorded a dog's offspring became some other kind of animal. They assume that this happened because the hypotheses of 'evolution' has to be protected. But there is no actual scientific evidence for this.

3 there is design in life.= If I ask a scientists to make a robot of a dog, do they have to design it and put it together? Or do they just throw the materials in a corner and come back expecting it be all put together on it's own? There are also people that research life, and try to copy it so they can make it something useful for humans to use. The research and what they come up with, they say is designed, but the original is not designed.
No one has been able to break these, with scientific evidence.
justinrapper wrote:Mr Dunsapy posted his 3 questions. Is there anyone on this Skeptic forum capable of offering a response or should we conclude he has the Skeptics all stumped. I am repeating his 3 points.
Yet my 3 facts of life, can not be broken, from the scientific evidence we have.
So creation and science are the same thing.
1 life comes from life. = No one has seen or recorded that life spontaneously generates itself. The scientist assume, that is what happened. But have no evidence of that.

2 Dogs have more dogs = no one expects or has recorded a dog's offspring became some other kind of animal. They assume that this happened because the hypotheses of 'evolution' has to be protected. But there is no actual scientific evidence for this.

3 there is design in life.= If I ask a scientists to make a robot of a dog, do they have to design it and put it together? Or do they just throw the materials in a corner and come back expecting it be all put together on it's own? There are also people that research life, and try to copy it so they can make it something useful for humans to use. The research and what they come up with, they say is designed, but the original is not designed.
No one has been able to break these, with scientific evidence.
Justin I don't think they can. I have tested this before with scientists and they can't either.
I think are quite irritated that in 3 simple little, statements, destroys what they have tried to build for over 100 years. And it is just reasoning on the evidence the scientists themselves have done.
Anyway I don't want to labor this too much, So I will end here.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Chachacha » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:09 am

Gord wrote: I just have one, [sockpuppet] but it's a bit crusty.
:shock: Oh, Gord, not your sockpuppet!!!! :shock:


*tee hee*

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Poodle » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:13 am

Hi there, sockpuppets.

Do you include your contact here on your preaching report? You should. But of course, one of your basic instructions is to avoid contact with people who are skeptical of your beliefs (you do know that, don't you?). You're breaking a basic rule, so you probably don't include it in your report. But doesn't that mean that you're lying to your brethren? It doesn't matter to me, but I've read that wilfully ignoring rules can be described as apostasy, and they don't like that at all. Did you tell them that you once invented a Unified Theory of Evolution? Oh, I'd wager there were jolly japes if you did!

Which version of you (if any), I wonder, is the true rapper man? Evolutionist and scoffer at christianity, creationist and fundamental christian, or liar and hypocrite. And all within the space of a single year. I'm surprised your brain hasn't exploded, what with dealing with several impossible things before breakfast.

I wish you luck in your next lifestyle decision. Have you thought about Atlantis and Lemuria? That's good for a laugh. Or you could take up with our lizard overlords - we haven't had that for a little while. You are already a UFO nut, so I won't suggest that one. Chemtrails? Do you fancy a go at that? Maybe not, though - it can get a little technical. Perhaps none of them - why don't you try something totally original? You know - just make something up. Ah - no - you already do that.

Whatever. You decide. Give us some fresh material to laugh at.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by xouper » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:36 am

Mr Dunsapy wrote:
justinrapper wrote:
1 life comes from life.
2 Dogs have more dogs
3 there is design in life.
No one has been able to break these, with scientific evidence.
Justin I don't think they can. I have tested this before with scientists and they can't either.
That is factually incorrect. In fact that's an outright lie. Science has already addressed those three questions. Your refusal to accept the scientific answers in no way proves those answers are wrong.
Mr Dunsapy wrote:So I will end here.
Is that a promise?

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by justinrapper » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:16 pm

Mr Dunsapy have you tried "RationalSkepticism". http://www.rationalskepticism.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The mind is a beautiful thing to waste and your talents will be just as fruitful on the many Skeptic forums with their low hanging victims of insecurity. Can you point to some interesting links on Dawkins.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by moth1ne » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:34 pm

justinrapper wrote:Mr Dunsapy have you tried "RationalSkepticism". http://www.rationalskepticism.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The mind is a beautiful thing to waste and your talents will be just as fruitful on the many Skeptic forums with their low hanging victims of insecurity. Can you point to some interesting links on Dawkins.
What talents are these? Being as unreasonable as my 3 year old nephew?
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:09 am

justinrapper wrote:Mr Dunsapy have you tried "RationalSkepticism". http://www.rationalskepticism.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The mind is a beautiful thing to waste and your talents will be just as fruitful on the many Skeptic forums with their low hanging victims of insecurity. Can you point to some interesting links on Dawkins.
Yeah, you'll get banned in about 30 minutes there. Try abovetopsecret.com. They like idiots.
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Slowvehicle » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:13 am

Mr. Dunsappy:

You tried this tired, silly stuff on Talk.Origins, and had patiently explained to you, by many posters, the error of your approach--and yet here you are, with the same old stuff, nothing new--claiming that no one has been able to "break" your points...is your memory that short, or are you just hoping that no one here frequents T.O., or any other newsgroups where you have tried your song and dance?

Let's review the bidding, in no particular order.

1. You say that "the scientist" can't "prove evolution" because they don't know "how life just happened".

-It has been pointed out to you, over and over, many patient times, that the origin of life, and its subsequent development, are two different things. We know that life, did, in fact, come to exist--that's what all that noise in the backyard is. We also know that life has, in fact, changed and developed. ToE is based on observation.
Differential reproductive success resulting from environmental pressures on hereditable variation can be observed in the lab, and in the wild.

2. You say that there are "24 different classifications of species".

-I personally have pointed out to you that your statement is not true--the first time you said it, it could charitably have been a mistake, but continuing to make the claim in the face of contrary evidence shows that you are simply being carelessly dishonest. To refresh your memory:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/punct ... 0/oct/20/3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3. You have an odd idea about what ToE really predicts--you keep going on about the experimental animals with their organs in funny places, or extra legs--and this mistake has been pointed out to you, repeatedly.

4. You claim that the "missing links" "have gone missing"--and when pressed, you mention "Piltdown Man", "Nebraska man", and "Lucy".

-Piltdown was a hoax, a hoax that evolutionists exposed and disproved--and has not been used in any serious book about evolution for more than half a century.
-Nebraska Man was the creation of a newspaper writer.
-Lucy is still considered to be a very good example of one of the steps in the evolution of humans.

Why do you keep saying the same things, when they have been dealt with on other fora?

5.You claim that evolution was designed to show that no god is needed.

-"god" is simply irrelevant to ToE. ToE explains observed phenomena. That's all.

6. You make the claim that "evoilution is not real, and is simply adaptation, breeding, mutation, and natural selection".

-It has been patiently pointed out to you, over and over, that, while those words are found in explanations of ToE, that is NOT a valid statement of what evolution is. I have given you a very simple version of ToE...why not address it, instead of your straw man?

7. You claim that there are no transitional fossils.

-I personally have provided you with several sites listing a wealth od transitional fossils...which you have blithely ignored.

Maybe the reason all those websites you claim to have looked at "all say the same thing": is because they are in agreement about reality...

The list of your fall-back positions could go on and on...
"Dinosaurs did not exist" before "the scientist" coined the term...
"Jews have genealogical records going back to Adam"...
"Morality is against what evolution is supposed to be about"...
"Dawkins believes in Magic"...
"Martian soil would kill any kind of biological life"...
"Science confirms what the bible says"...
"There are no 'almost humans' and no 'ex humans' "...

And of course, who can overlook your masterful presentation of proof of design:
"Look! Breeeaaaad! Bread is created, therefore ToE is false!"

Coming here to another forum, and repeating the very same things that were refuted on T.O., is very much like finding out that the milk is sour, but putting it back in the refrigerator just in case it isn't sour tomorrow.
Last edited by Slowvehicle on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:47 am

Nice opener. Welcome. 'Ware the loonies.
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Slowvehicle » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:24 pm

Mr Dunsapy wrote:
justinrapper wrote:Mr Dunsapy posted his 3 questions. Is there anyone on this Skeptic forum capable of offering a response or should we conclude he has the Skeptics all stumped. I am repeating his 3 points.
Yet my 3 facts of life, can not be broken, from the scientific evidence we have.
So creation and science are the same thing.
1 life comes from life. = No one has seen or recorded that life spontaneously generates itself. The scientist assume, that is what happened. But have no evidence of that.

2 Dogs have more dogs = no one expects or has recorded a dog's offspring became some other kind of animal. They assume that this happened because the hypotheses of 'evolution' has to be protected. But there is no actual scientific evidence for this.

3 there is design in life.= If I ask a scientists to make a robot of a dog, do they have to design it and put it together? Or do they just throw the materials in a corner and come back expecting it be all put together on it's own? There are also people that research life, and try to copy it so they can make it something useful for humans to use. The research and what they come up with, they say is designed, but the original is not designed.
No one has been able to break these, with scientific evidence.
justinrapper wrote:Mr Dunsapy posted his 3 questions. Is there anyone on this Skeptic forum capable of offering a response or should we conclude he has the Skeptics all stumped. I am repeating his 3 points.
Yet my 3 facts of life, can not be broken, from the scientific evidence we have.
So creation and science are the same thing.
1 life comes from life. = No one has seen or recorded that life spontaneously generates itself. The scientist assume, that is what happened. But have no evidence of that.

2 Dogs have more dogs = no one expects or has recorded a dog's offspring became some other kind of animal. They assume that this happened because the hypotheses of 'evolution' has to be protected. But there is no actual scientific evidence for this.

3 there is design in life.= If I ask a scientists to make a robot of a dog, do they have to design it and put it together? Or do they just throw the materials in a corner and come back expecting it be all put together on it's own? There are also people that research life, and try to copy it so they can make it something useful for humans to use. The research and what they come up with, they say is designed, but the original is not designed.
No one has been able to break these, with scientific evidence.
Justin I don't think they can. I have tested this before with scientists and they can't either.
I think are quite irritated that in 3 simple little, statements, destroys what they have tried to build for over 100 years. And it is just reasoning on the evidence the scientists themselves have done.
Anyway I don't want to labor this too much, So I will end here.
Mr. Dunsappy:

You tried three very similar "facts" over on Talk.Origins:

"The Theory of Everything
Here are 3 facts:
1 everything comes from life
2 humans get more humans
3 there is design in everything.
Creation is supported by all three. But the scientists are against all three.
So who really is following the science?
These are facts like gravity is a fact, no matter what new understanding comes to light, it is still gravity that holds us to the ground.
I am serious about this. So please answer with evidence.
I say this because the scientist use interpretation and assumptions of the science when talking about the origins and 'evolution'. "

That discussion, where you tried to claim that "the scientist" are intentionally dishonest, that "missing links go missing", and that there are "no transitional fossils", won you an award, too--do you remember it?

Do you remember the multiple posters whose statements you ignored, or lied about, or mis-stated?

I am curious as to why you changed your "three facts" that "cannot be broken"; and what improvements you think the changes wrought.

I am also curious to see you explain on this forum how "bread" is proof that everything is designed.

I am also curious to see if fundamental dishonesty is still an integral characteristic of your schtick.

As I suggested to you over there, I encourage you to "pull first the great beam from your own eye" before you continue throwing around unsupported assumptions, or making scatter-shot accusations.
"Congruence. Fruitfulness. Luminosity."

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Slowvehicle » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:14 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Nice opener. Welcome. 'Ware the loonies.
TY.
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:25 pm

Slowvehicle wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Nice opener. Welcome. 'Ware the loonies.
TY.
I think you'll have fun here. Did you follow Mr. Dunsappy? If so, you are probably well armed to deal with him. Cheers.
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by angawawa » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:42 pm

This is a re-post from a couple of months ago. No one ever addressed my questions. Maybe it's just stupid. If so, please let me know. It seems to me that this is a case of observed evolution.

"As the experiment continued, something else began to happen. By generations eight and ten, the foxes started developing spots. Some of them were even marked like border collies. Some foxes developed shorter legs and tails than the wild type, while others had tails that curled over their backs. Even more unusually, a few vixens had estrus cycles longer than normal, and a few also had estrus cycles twice a year. All of these traits are traits of domestic animals."

Read more at Suite101: Domesticating the Silver Fox: Breeding for Tameness Changes Animals Behaviorally and Physically | Suite101.com http://suite101.com/article/domesticati" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... z21kMi9m3j"

Why did the foxes change? Was it because God had programmed this into them just in case humans tried to domesticate them? Can this be considered evolution? It is a change over time caused by random mutations.
If you keep your mind sufficiently open, people will throw all manner of garbage into it.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Slowvehicle » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:56 pm

angawawa:

A couple of observations:

First, the experiment, which has been running since 1957, is not done.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... eril_.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To date, the gene or genes responsible for the appearance of "domesticated" foxes has not been identified; in fact, the foxes bred for socialization ability do not show a consistent phenotype, but a range of somatotypes and behaviors.

Second, there is no reason to assume that "god" "programmed" domesticity onto the vulpine genome, any more than "god": "programmed" domesticity into the canine genome, or the equine genome...or the primate genome. There is evidence that domesticated animals share a suite of associated neotenic characteristics...but there is no evidence, none at all, that "god" "made them that way".

Third, this is certainly a case of differential reproductive success as a result of environmental pressures (the "tameable" foxes, and one strain of wild-type foxes, are allowed to breed, where the rest are not), but it is clearly artificial selection, not natural selection. As such, for my taste, it is in fact a demonstration of the mechanisms of evolution. Whether it is in fact a demonstration of evolution will depend upon your definitions.
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by angawawa » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:58 pm

Thanks, SV. The "god" comment was totally tongue-in-cheek, BTW! So you say it is "artificial selection" as opposed to "natural." I understand that the situation is artificial, but what would you say is the difference? I suppose in a "natural" environment foxes would not find themselves locked in cages, but could there be a way that these changes could have been caused by a "natural" situation? Harsh outdoor climates forcing foxes to live in extremely close quarters, for instance?
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Slowvehicle » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:17 pm

angawawa:

Thanks--I thought the "god' bit was out of character...I'm new here, so I'm still figuring out who's got a sense of humor.

The biggest difference between "natural selection" and "artificial selection" (breeding), at least pedagogically, is that "artificial selection" does, in fact, have a target, and is, in fact, guided by "intelligence" (notwithstanding commentary on the intelligence of breeding for cocker spaniels, on purpose...).

If, for instance, one is inclined to use the fox domestication project as an example of evolution, one is almost guaranteed to be told that that "proves" ID, because all "evolution" must be guided (the anti-randomness rant).

I do not think that climate change, or habitat loss, would drive foxes to "tameability" any more than it has done for the coyotes in my backyard...the coyotes have seen the "benefits" of domestication, and they are not impressed.

FWIW, I personally find the distinction between "natural selection" and "artificial selection" to be as pointless, and meaningless, as the distinction between "microevolution" and "macroevolution"....as if the same process by which one goes out to get the mail would not, if pursued, serve to get one to Cleveland.
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:32 pm

angawawa wrote:Thanks, SV. The "god" comment was totally tongue-in-cheek, BTW! So you say it is "artificial selection" as opposed to "natural." I understand that the situation is artificial, but what would you say is the difference? I suppose in a "natural" environment foxes would not find themselves locked in cages, but could there be a way that these changes could have been caused by a "natural" situation? Harsh outdoor climates forcing foxes to live in extremely close quarters, for instance?
Food supplies determine population densities, until there is too much population for the food supply. Even then. Harsh climate predator pops tend to be spread out because the food supply is usually smaller. On the other hand, cariboo herds support plenty of wolves.
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by justinrapper » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:39 pm

Genesis foretold the fall of man. Science is finding much evidence to support such dire predictions. Even Skeptics are behind the scientist. It is no longer just evolution and monkey believers. Now there is regression and humans are at the forefront of this genetic decline.
Study: For Some Time Now, People Have Been Getting Measurably Dumber
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Mutations in the human brain are making us stupider, new research shows
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Poodle » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:11 pm

justinrapper wrote:For Some Time Now, People Have Been Getting Measurably Dumber
We noticed.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by justinrapper » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:41 pm

Poodle wrote:
justinrapper wrote:For Some Time Now, People Have Been Getting Measurably Dumber
We noticed.
Skeptics should be convinced by now because I have used them in so many examples to support such conclusions. In my Unified Theory of Evolution I provided links to articles that discovered the shrinking human brain and other lab test that drew comparisons between humans and other primates. The intent was to give Skeptics both a genesis account and an evolutionary account. Mr Dunsapy`s theistic contributions further advanced the sense of urgency confronting Skeptics.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:48 pm

justinrapper wrote: Mr Dunsapy`s theistic contributions further advanced the sense of urgency confronting Skeptics teachers.
FIFY. You must have spotted a shiny thing while typing.
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Poodle » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:17 pm

justinrapper wrote: ... In my Unified Theory of Evolution I provided links to articles that discovered the shrinking human brain and other lab test that drew comparisons between humans and other primates. The intent was to give Skeptics both a genesis account and an evolutionary account. Mr Dunsapy`s theistic contributions further advanced the sense of urgency confronting Skeptics.
Your hypocrisy, as usual, is breathtaking. In your Genesis phase you were a rabid creationist, and in your Unified phase you were arguing the toss about a creature which possibly gave rise to Homo sapiens. Now you are the kindly grandfather who gives us the benefit of your dualistic open-mindedness. It's all BS emanating from the obvious fact that you don't know what you're talking about and have neither the wit nor the will to do any basic research of your own.

And please stop attributing seperate existences to your sockpuppets. It's silly.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by justinrapper » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:33 pm

Poodle wrote:
justinrapper wrote: ... In my Unified Theory of Evolution I provided links to articles that discovered the shrinking human brain and other lab test that drew comparisons between humans and other primates. The intent was to give Skeptics both a genesis account and an evolutionary account. Mr Dunsapy`s theistic contributions further advanced the sense of urgency confronting Skeptics.
Your hypocrisy, as usual, is breathtaking. In your Genesis phase you were a rabid creationist, and in your Unified phase you were arguing the toss about a creature which possibly gave rise to Homo sapiens. Now you are the kindly grandfather who gives us the benefit of your dualistic open-mindedness. It's all BS emanating from the obvious fact that you don't know what you're talking about and have neither the wit nor the will to do any basic research of your own.

And please stop attributing seperate existences to your sockpuppets. It's silly.
Please read my unified theory of evolution. There isn`t a single mention of genesis or creation in the thread. You must be confusing it with the many theistic evolution theories expounded by creationist and ID proponents. I have always kept the issues separate.

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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:10 pm

Justin, will you give the name of the last person to talk you out of suicide? I want to find them and slap them.
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Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account

Post by justinrapper » Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:29 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Justin, will you give the name of the last person to talk you out of suicide? I want to find them and slap them.
Funny for a Skeptic to talk about suicide. I pointed to their underlying insecurity which appears to be more serious than Skeptics brains emitting fear signals that disrupt irrational thought. I would suggest tree climbing as a therapeutic remedy to rediscovering their roots and getting back into the swing of things.