Racism

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Re: Racism

Post by 4sure » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:19 am

Gord wrote:I'd use bricks.

Jebus was a carpmenter. I wonder if Heaven is made of lumber?
If so, then a would bet that the lumber is perfectly straight without flaw.

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Re: Racism

Post by Gord » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:35 am

4sure wrote:
Gord wrote:I'd use bricks.

Jebus was a carpmenter. I wonder if Heaven is made of lumber?
If so, then a would bet that the lumber is perfectly straight without flaw.
So, more like a cheese log, then?
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Re: Racism

Post by 4sure » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:15 pm

Gord wrote:
4sure wrote:
Gord wrote:I'd use bricks.

Jebus was a carpmenter. I wonder if Heaven is made of lumber?
If so, then a would bet that the lumber is perfectly straight without flaw.
So, more like a cheese log, then?
Well yes, if you can say a cheese log is perfectly straight and without flaw.

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Re: Racism

Post by Gord » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:32 am

4sure wrote:
Gord wrote:
4sure wrote:
Gord wrote:I'd use bricks.

Jebus was a carpmenter. I wonder if Heaven is made of lumber?
If so, then a would bet that the lumber is perfectly straight without flaw.
So, more like a cheese log, then?
Well yes, if you can say a cheese log is perfectly straight and without flaw.
I've never met a flawed and/or homosexual cheese log. Never.
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Re: Racism

Post by numan » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:17 am

'
landrew wrote: Could there be a more trivial genetic trait than skin pigment?
That depends on where you live and how much UV radiation you are exposed to.
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Re: Racism

Post by numan » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:33 am

'
I consider it obvious that if skin color, say, is more noticeable to you than eye color, then clearly you are a racist.

By that standard, I am a racist, though I think it is mainly because other people make such a big deal of it.

I know that when I have lived in other countries, the different appearance of people there quickly diminishes and I start thinking how someone looks like Aunt Hattie or some acquaintance back in North America.

I think if you live around people of a different ethnicity for a while, and there are no personal or historical grudges to get in the way, then racism almost disappears. What then emerge are cultural differences and prejudices---but that is another story.
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:47 am

My definition of racist is more like someone who believes erroneously in people of certain racial origins being superior genetically to people of other racial origins.

Recognising that people vary in skin tone is not racist. However, saying for example that dark skinned people are smarter, is racist. If there was clear cut empirical data to show that one group was more intelligent than another, and you agreed with that, you are just being scientifically correct. However, no such data exists. Therefore, to say one group is superior to another is something plucked from your own prejudice - not from data - and is racist.

Personally, I am not racist. I do not believe any group - no matter their skin colour - is genetically superior to another. However, I am culturist. I have noted that people of certain cultural backgrounds exhibit different behaviours to people of other cultural backgrounds. Sometimes that behaviour is much less attractive. I end up believing that certain cultures are preferable to others. That is my culturism.

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Re: Racism

Post by numan » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:12 pm

'
Lance Kennedy wrote: However, I am culturist. I have noted that people of certain cultural backgrounds exhibit different behaviours to people of other cultural backgrounds. Sometimes that behaviour is much less attractive. I end up believing that certain cultures are preferable to others. That is my culturism.
Yes, and there are not many that are worse than American so-called "culture"!
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:23 pm

Actually, Numan, I was thinking of tribalism when I said that. Primitive peoples, like my Scottish forebears of 1000 years ago, tend to live in tribal groups. That part is fine. What is not fine is the tendency for tribal people to classify those not in their tribe as non people. Non people are not given the rights and respect of people. Indeed, it is often quite acceptable to murder, rape, maim, torture etc., anyone who is not of the tribe.

Now I agree that there are a small number of Americans who believe that non Americans are undeserving. But it is a small number. Most Americans are fine, decent individuals who show kindness and hospitality to non Americans. This, in my opinion, is the mark of an advanced and civilised people.

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Re: Racism

Post by numan » Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:42 pm

'
Lance Kennedy wrote: Now I agree that there are a small number of Americans who believe that non Americans are undeserving. But it is a small number.
Ha! you obviously haven't strolled along Tobacco Road recently!

Anyway, that hardly exhausts the manifold defects of American "culture".
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Re: Racism

Post by city slicker » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:42 am

I happen to believe that all human beings are of the same "race". It is undeniable, however, that there is a class of people in this country who are more likely to live in single parent families, be involved or the victims of violent crime, and whose teens have a 41% unemployment rate. This group is more likely to be HIV positive.
In Africa, this group is much more likely to be infected with AIDS.
It so happens that this group all over the world has dark skin. I don't know why this should be.
Also, since most AIDS (with some exceptions) is related to behavior , it would seem that this group also doesn't seem to be able to learn from the experience of others. Even in Africa there is enough educational effort so that people know the cause of AIDS, but seem unwilling to change their behavior.
I don't know why all this is so. But over the years to come, if there is one group of people whose existence is most at risk, it is black skinned people. So why aren't groups like the NAACP doing things to change behavior ? A mystery.

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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:08 am

Slicker

This ties in with what I said of culture. Having dark skin does not, of itself, create a risk. However, having a particular cultural background may.

If you look at the history of those of British descent (like me), you will see a series of gradual changes over the past 1000 years. That millennium back, for example, the homicide rate in England was 100 per 100,000 people each year. Today it is 1. The worst nation today has a rate of less than 60 (El Salvador), which shows that even the most lawless today are still well advanced over England of 1000 AD.

It is my view that cultures are changing, but change slowly - taking centuries for profound change. Within a culture that was, a few hundred years back, essentially stone age and tribal, and which is now required to adapt to western 21st century culture, we see the majority doing a damn good job of making that change. Howevber, there will always be a substantial number that have not. It is this cultural maladaptation that creates problems.

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Re: Racism

Post by HabitualResister » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:37 pm

This is my first post and hopefully it's a good one and I can add something substantial to the topic. From what I've observed in people and particularly within peoples' worldviews is that ideas and concepts always seem to become refined through experience and time from the broad and wide to the narrow. With respect to religion people originally attributed spirits and gods to everything within nature. As humanity achieved greater and greater scientific awareness these concepts became less valid and the powers that used to be attributed to gods were stripped away. In todays societies most religions have eroded to little more than deism with a single powerless god who is restricted by our knowledge to intermittent and unsubstantiated 'miracles'.

I believe that it is the same way with racism. The most ignorant form of racism applies labels such as yellow, black, white, red, etc. In the US this extreme view of race isn't nearly as widely accepted as it used to be a century ago. As different cultures collide these basic labels have been divided into slightly less offensive terms. Far more people today know the difference between an indian and an iranian than before because of the war in the middle east. More people can distinguish between the different asiatic countries because of the vast amounts of japanese and chinese culture being thrust upon us. Like many of the people on these boards that have been posting it seems to me that race has become little more than a denotative means by which to describe people. Because of this we find it hard to explain why aggression is so widespread between races. It's when we place connotations on race that things become heated and blood is shed.

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Re: Racism

Post by vanderpoel » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:01 pm

Racism is a learned behavior.
Babies recognize the differences in color but don't they attach values to them.
We can blame babies for not teaching parents well.
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:19 pm

Not quite true, Van.

Babies are known to show fear when they first see a person of a recognisably different colour. They rather frequently scream. They have to learn to accept people who look different.

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Re: Racism

Post by vanderpoel » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:11 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Not quite true, Van.

Babies are known to show fear when they first see a person of a recognisably different colour. They rather frequently scream. They have to learn to accept people who look different.
That is at best evidence of unfamiliarity, often the source for discrimination.
However, I agree with your observations on behavior as the reason for prejudice,
a learned behavior indeed.
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Re: Racism

Post by fromthehills » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:48 am

OlegTheBatty wrote: I also think its a good metaphor. A person skillful at applying intelligence can accomplish much with relatively little knowledge. Look what Archimedes did with far less knowledge than any modern school kid. Most people, though, are not as skilled as he, and require better tools (knowledge) to accomplish things.

I lost track of this thread. I have to say that Archimedes is a great example of what can be. The idea of a person creating a paradigm shift today, the way he did then, would be more amazing than we could imagine.

I must admit that he is my favorite, because of the many practical things he invented. The block and tackle, possibly the crane, possibly the differential, etc. He had a great beard, which allows deeper concentration, arguably that's why he was so smart. If I could travel back, I'd have kicked the {!#%@} out of that soldier that killed him, hopefully before the incident.

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Re: Racism

Post by Gord » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:23 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Not quite true, Van.

Babies are known to show fear when they first see a person of a recognisably different colour. They rather frequently scream. They have to learn to accept people who look different.
I've never seen this broken down into skin colours before, but I have seen babies showing fear when they first see a person of recognisably different appearance. I remember studies where the mother's face has been partially covered to see if the baby can still identifiy her -- they were investigating which facial features babies most recognize. (If I remember correctly, it was the overall contours that mattered most -- jawline, cheekline, etc.) Has someone done a study where, for instance, the child's parents (whom they recognise) have their facial colours changed? It would be interesting to see a comparison between colour differentiation and shape differentiation in babies.
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:43 am

Gord

I have no reference available, since it was some years since I read that statement in a science journal. However, I have it on personal - very personal - experience.

When I was living in Fiji I was the cause of infant hysteria on several occasions. When visiting friends, both melanesian Fijian and Indian, the appearance of my pale white skin in front of very young children was enough to fire off every indication of terror.

The slightly older kids were very different. Once they knew their parents approved, they would play with me, and try to climb up my body which was spindly and tall in those days - now still tall, but definitely not spindly. They chattered in their own language, and frequently laughed. No doubt at my expense.

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Re: Racism

Post by Gord » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:58 am

That just sounds like you're scary-looking, not that white is scary-looking.

Plus, I have contradictory anecdotal evidence. Having lived in several mixed-colour households, I've experienced children generally fear me and children generally like my foster brother. Only three children liked me (two "whities" and one "blackie") and only two disliked him (one "whitie," one "blackie").

Maybe you looked like the boogeyman who crept in every night and bit the baby?
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Re: Racism

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:06 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Gord I have no reference available.
I think you are right and I'm having a look for a paper on the concept.

I have found a paper on mothers recognising neonates based on olfactory cues. (Yuk!)


Here is an interesting article because the neonates are being tested to recognise their parents through black & white photographs ( which is sort of against the theory). I suggest the paragraph on Familial Recognition may answer our question in a round about kind of way.
http://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en& ... on&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Racism

Post by Gord » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:14 am

Heh heh! Kin recognition.

My mother almost left the hospital with the wrong baby. It was her third child. Another woman had had a baby girl the same day. The nurses got them confused the day both women were going home, and gave each mother the other's baby girl. Neither mother noticed, but the doctors did! Each disliked the way the other had cut the umbilical cord! :lol:

Once the mistake was corrected, though, both mothers agreed they had the right babies. And 55 years later, we're all absolutely certain. But we still like to tease my sister about it.
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Re: Racism

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:17 am

The face recognition study in below showed that babies prefered their own race to another race (they only compared white and African-American) when the adult was male, but showed no racial preference when the adult was female. In all cases, the babies' primary caregiver was female, and this may have had an influence.

It's a pdf file, so you have to scroll down. Its the 4th one.
http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~lds/pdfs/Ne ... 202010.pdf
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:16 pm

Gord

I am not scary looking. Ugly looking, yes. I shamefully admit it. But I make a better clown than bogeyman.

Oleg

Thanks for your reference. The original item I read was a while back, and I suspect probably predated the internet. (I'm showing my age now.)

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Re: Racism

Post by fromthehills » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:35 pm

="Lance Kennedy"

I am not scary looking. Ugly looking, yes. I shamefully admit it. But I make a better clown than bogeyman.
Yea, but still, it's hard to know why the kids were afraid of you. You may think it's pale skin, and it may be, but how to know that for sure. That could be a sense of awkwardness, on your part for being among so many of a different color, that brought the idea to mind. As for the babies, well, it could really be anything. Some babies are just {!#%@}.

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Re: Racism

Post by vanderpoel » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:29 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:The face recognition study in below showed that babies prefered their own race to another race (they only compared white and African-American) when the adult was male, but showed no racial preference when the adult was female. In all cases, the babies' primary caregiver was female, and this may have had an influence.

It's a pdf file, so you have to scroll down. Its the 4th one.
http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~lds/pdfs/Ne ... 202010.pdf
This study is merely testing the attention span for babies between dark and light images, hardly the only difference between races and a biased and foolish attempt to find racial preference.

It may very well be that all people prefer light skin over dark skin, (African Americans themselves discriminate based on skin color), and all babies want their mommies. The graduate student who describes these findings as racial preferences is describing her own racial bias in a stupid test.
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Re: Racism

Post by Gord » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:02 am

vanderpoel wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:The face recognition study in below showed that babies prefered their own race to another race (they only compared white and African-American) when the adult was male, but showed no racial preference when the adult was female. In all cases, the babies' primary caregiver was female, and this may have had an influence.

It's a pdf file, so you have to scroll down. Its the 4th one.
http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~lds/pdfs/Ne ... 202010.pdf
This study is merely testing the attention span for babies between dark and light images, hardly the only difference between races and a biased and foolish attempt to find racial preference.
It's hard to form any real conclusions from a simple one-page summary.
The graduate student who describes these findings as racial preferences is describing her own racial bias in a stupid test.
That sounds plausible to me. But again, it's hard to make a conclusion, because it gives us so little information. It certainly sounds like they went into it believing babies could identify race rather than something else which the investigators didn't notice that might have been inherent in the images. But we can't tell. Not enough information.
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Re: Racism

Post by Major Malfunction » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:28 am

It's only an anecdote, but my first kid, as an infant, reacted startled when first seeing me after I'd just had a haircut & shave for a job interview. Until I spoke. Then she was all gummy smiles and touching my face.

But even now, if some strange beardy like Gord or fromthe suddenly stuck his face in my field of vision, I would react startled.
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Re: Racism

Post by Gord » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:00 am

That's 'cause we're werewolves.

Which proves not only that werewolves exist, but also that children are inherently afraid of them. As they should be! Mwah ha ha ha haaaa!


woof
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Re: Racism

Post by Major Malfunction » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:38 am

What the..!?!

Oh, ho ho... It's only you, Gord.

Actually, NOOOOooooooo!!!!

*flesh-shredding and gurgling noises*
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Re: Racism

Post by pinkharrier » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:10 pm

I'm not sure it is racist to consider that Congolese Pygmies are less likely to line up for the 100m final in London in 2012 than people of Bantu descent from west Africa, especially if it is - or turns out to be - true. Surely a truth test applies.

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Re: Racism

Post by numan » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:28 pm

'
Lance Kennedy wrote: If you look at the history of those of British descent (like me), you will see a series of gradual changes over the past 1000 years. That millennium back, for example, the homicide rate in England was 100 per 100,000 people each year. Today it is 1.
And we are still waiting for Americans to catch up to England.

I always tell Americans that if they were sensible, they would put their affairs under the direction of the British Colonial Office until they are ready for self government. But you know Americans. They never listen to good advice.
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Re: Racism

Post by Gord » Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:36 am

pinkharrier wrote:I'm not sure it is racist to consider that Congolese Pygmies are less likely to line up for the 100m final in London in 2012 than people of Bantu descent from west Africa, especially if it is - or turns out to be - true. Surely a truth test applies.
Are you saying "Congolese Pygmies" constitute a race? On what are you basing that: Appearance, or the sign-up sheet for the 100m final in London? :mrgreen: heh heh, its funny 'cause the 100m final is a race :mrgreen:
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Re: Racism

Post by vanderpoel » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:18 am

numan wrote:'
Lance Kennedy wrote: If you look at the history of those of British descent (like me), you will see a series of gradual changes over the past 1000 years. That millennium back, for example, the homicide rate in England was 100 per 100,000 people each year. Today it is 1.
And we are still waiting for Americans to catch up to England.

I always tell Americans that if they were sensible, they would put their affairs under the direction of the British Colonial Office until they are ready for self government. But you know Americans. They never listen to good advice.
Oh right, we should all go British, rot our teeth on hot potatoes, catch colds in drafty dwellings, keep up with the price of pints and kiss the skinny royal ass of history.
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Re: Racism

Post by pinkharrier » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:29 am

Gord wrote:
pinkharrier wrote:I'm not sure it is racist to consider that Congolese Pygmies are less likely to line up for the 100m final in London in 2012 than people of Bantu descent from west Africa, especially if it is - or turns out to be - true. Surely a truth test applies.
Are you saying "Congolese Pygmies" constitute a race? On what are you basing that: Appearance, or the sign-up sheet for the 100m final in London? :mrgreen: heh heh, its funny 'cause the 100m final is a race :mrgreen:
Race, population group, sub species, whatever pops your cork.

Question is whether it is true or not. You didn't say.

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Major Malfunction
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Re: Racism

Post by Major Malfunction » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:57 am

Nasty hobbitses.
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Re: Racism

Post by numan » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:41 pm

vanderpoel wrote:
numan wrote:I always tell Americans that if they were sensible, they would put their affairs under the direction of the British Colonial Office until they are ready for self government. But you know Americans. They never listen to good advice.
Oh right, we should all go British, rot our teeth on hot potatoes, catch colds in drafty dwellings, keep up with the price of pints and kiss the skinny royal ass of history.
If not for catchy accented talent competitions what good is English?
But just think! Americans might eventually develop a sense of humour!
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:16 pm

Actually, Numan, that is already happening. The lowest form of humour is slapstick and mockery of other, vulnerable people. America went through that stage early in the 20th century. Most of the following 50 years, American humour was simply very weak.

The highest form of humour is self mockery. This is something the British are wonderfully good at. However, more and more American humour is trending that way. Look at 'The Simpsons' and 'Married with Children'. Self mockery is on the rise, and Americans will be the richer for it.

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Re: Racism

Post by vanderpoel » Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:28 pm

numan wrote:
vanderpoel wrote:
numan wrote:I always tell Americans that if they were sensible, they would put their affairs under the direction of the British Colonial Office until they are ready for self government. But you know Americans. They never listen to good advice.
Oh right, we should all go British, rot our teeth on hot potatoes, catch colds in drafty dwellings, keep up with the price of pints and kiss the skinny royal ass of history.
If not for catchy accented talent competitions what good is English?
But just think! Americans might eventually develop a sense of humour!
English humor? Benny Hill, Lord Willwell and Lady Cannotmore? Blimey!
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Re: Racism

Post by Gord » Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:30 pm

pinkharrier wrote:
Gord wrote:
pinkharrier wrote:I'm not sure it is racist to consider that Congolese Pygmies are less likely to line up for the 100m final in London in 2012 than people of Bantu descent from west Africa, especially if it is - or turns out to be - true. Surely a truth test applies.
Are you saying "Congolese Pygmies" constitute a race? On what are you basing that: Appearance, or the sign-up sheet for the 100m final in London? :mrgreen: heh heh, its funny 'cause the 100m final is a race :mrgreen:
Race, population group, sub species, whatever pops your cork.

Question is whether it is true or not. You didn't say.
If what is true? If it's racist to think in terms of races based upon appearances and locations, or if the sign-up sheet for the 100m final in London was tacked on the bulletin board too high up for short people to reach from the Congo?
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