Racism

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Re: Racism

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:03 pm

About Doggists:
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Re: Racism

Post by Hotair101 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:19 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:About Doggists:
Did you hear about the dyslectic agnostic insomniac who layed awake nights wondering if there is a doG?
lol, have now!
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Re: Racism

Post by landrew » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:30 pm

Could there be a more trivial genetic trait than skin pigment?
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Re: Racism

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:58 pm

Is this a trick question? Cha?
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Re: Racism

Post by Blacksamwell » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:30 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Gord

Races exist. Very simple. An African has darker skin and a thicker bone structure than I have, as a European. That is objectively and empirically verifiable.

A Chinese type Asian has the epicanthic eye fold. I do not have that, and neither does the African.

Now, the degree of difference between different races is small. As I said before, about 0.1% of the total genome. This amount makes the differences between races quite trivial. However, it does not alter the fact that different races exist. If you try to deny that, you are living in fairyland.
What this view ignores is that any trait tends to vary more within a population than the mean of one population differs from the mean of another population. In other words, for any definition one sets for exactly how "black" one race is when compared to another there will always be individuals who's traits refuse to follow the rules.

When the bell curve of two populations overlaps 90% for any trait you choose it becomes somewhat arbitrary to declare the minor difference in each population's mean as a important distinction.

19th century eugenicists spent lots of time measuring craniums, nose widths, and quantifying individual's supposed physicaly inferior traits. In every case their data proved their concepts of race to be flawed. The average for some traits don't correspond to the average for others and a true set of "race" characteristics has never shown to exist.

Can anyone cite any peer reviewed study which has shown distinct and statistically significant measured differences between populations that can be universally applied?

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Re: Racism

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:52 pm

Have there been any peer reviewed studies measuring pigmentation differences between olympic-class sprinters and hurdlers and Special Olympics-class sprinters and hurdlers?

Also, I remember a 60 Minute segment about Russian-trained ANC military advisor Joe Slovo in which Slovo was leading a band of black anti-South African guerillas, and all these black soldiers marching with rifles, and dressed in camo, break out singing in three part harmony that would upstage the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, not to mention a white US army group that couldn't sing 100 Bottles of Beer on the Wall in tune. Yes, IMHO there are racial differences, bitter and sweet, depending on who wants to emphasize what, but they are just about averages and norms, and not about individuals. If the average black can sing better than the averge white, it doesn't mean that the Everly Brothers didn't harmonize beautifully.
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:35 pm

Blacksamwell

The existence of intermediates between races does not change the fact that races exist. Your argument is like saying, that because the average IQ is 100, that both geniuses and morons do not exist.

However, part of your argument is simply wrong. If we exclude people who are half one race, and half another - limiting ourselves to 'pure-breds', then for many racial groups and for many features, the means for various measures are very different.

Compare skin colour between Finns and equatorial Africans. The mean values of each are very, very different. Introduce 'hybrids' and the situation changes. If you look at people like Egyptians, for example, who are the result of inter-racial marriage over thousands of years, then things are different. But even that does not obviate the idea that races exist.

Sure, I agree that there is a continuum of physical traits if you look at humankind as a whole. However, if you look at distinct geographically separated populations, you will see rather a large number of examples of features that are quite racially different. Natives of Africa have curly hair, while natives of China have straight hair. If we measured the degree of curliness and put a numerical value on it, we would find the mean value for those two places would be most different.

None of which is about racial 'superiority' or 'inferiority'. I have seen no convincing data to say that specific groups are genetically better or worse than other groups.

Culturally, of course, that does not apply. There are human cultures that are definitely more attractive than certain other human cultures. Certain cultures, for example, represent a higher violent crime rate than certain other cultures. But this has nothing to do with genetics.

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Re: Racism

Post by Hotair101 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:07 pm

I was taught that there was one human species which was divided into several races based on some differing traits. You, Lance, seem to be an advocate of this but don't you think it's 'old school' now? Hasn't science moved on since then?

http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/Lewontin/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a link I came across which I found interesting.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ecies.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course there could be political reasons for the new way of thinking? It could be argued that the exchanging of the word 'race' to 'ethnicities' is just another PC stunt to move us away from the notion a minority of people hold that some 'races' are inferior to others. Could this be behind the dropping of the word 'race' altogether?
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Re: Racism

Post by landrew » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:26 pm

Hotair101 wrote:I was taught that there was one human species which was divided into several races based on some differing traits. You, Lance, seem to be an advocate of this but don't you think it's 'old school' now? Hasn't science moved on since then?
Such divisions are just someone's opinion. Hitler defined the Aryan race by chiefly one trait, caused by the defective gene for pigment which made hair blond and eyes blue. He instructed his armies to kidnap blond and blue-eyed children from conquered lands to be brought back to Germany to be raised by the Reich. The rest were slated for eventual extermination, but would serve as slave labor until Aryans could take their place.

Homo sapiens is a fairly homogeneous animal world wide. The differences between the human "races" are very minor and less significant than divisions made in other species of animals. It's questionable whether the division of race is a valid scientific one.

Edit Note: I removed the link to the Wiki article "Lebensborn" because the neutrality of the article is disputed. As written, it differs significantly from many other sources which claim as I have stated above. The Wiki article has apparently been edited by someone to portray a much more benign representation of the Nazi Lebensborn program.
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Re: Racism

Post by Hotair101 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:01 pm

landrew wrote:
Hotair101 wrote:I was taught that there was one human species which was divided into several races based on some differing traits. You, Lance, seem to be an advocate of this but don't you think it's 'old school' now? Hasn't science moved on since then?
Such divisions are just someone's opinion. Hitler defined the Aryan race by chiefly one trait, caused by the defective gene for pigment which made hair blond and eyes blue. He instructed his armies to kidnap blond and blue-eyed children from conquered lands to be brought back to Germany to be raised by the Reich. The rest were slated for eventual extermination, but would serve as slave labor until Aryans could take their place.

Homo sapiens is a fairly homogeneous animal world wide. The differences between the human "races" are very minor and less significant than divisions made in other species of animals. It's questionable whether the division of race is a valid scientific one.

Edit Note: I removed the link to the Wiki article "Lebensborn" because the neutrality of the article is disputed. As written, it differs significantly from many other sources which claim that which I have stated above. The Wiki article has apparently been edited by someone to portray a much more benign representation of the Nazi Lebensborn program.
I'm just surprised at such differing opinions on this topic. Here's a link about a recent American study, and although by no mean conclusive it argues for differing races even though currently we are leaning towards no races.

Indians make one major human race.
http://www.rxpgnews.com/evolution/India ... 9957.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Theories seem to be bouncing backwards and forewards.
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Re: Racism

Post by landrew » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:13 pm

Hotair101 wrote: Theories seem to be bouncing backwards and forewards.
That's more a sign that it's going somewhere than an idea that's locked down by certitudes.
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:35 pm

Just to make my point clear, so there is no misinterpretation.

I have not been advocating any specific classification system for racial differences. Just saying that race exists. I have seen a number of systems suggested, and they are all, of course, quite subjective, and artificial.

I have no axe to grind on that point. If you want to follow one system, or another, that is up to you. I suspect they are all equally valid or equally invalid.

However, those who try to say that there is no such thing as race are simply flying in the face of the simplest observations. I have used the difference between equatorial African and Nordic peoples to illustrate, since that is a nice clear cut extreme comparison. The differences go way beyond simple skin colour. Lots of physical features are involved.

And it looks as though the ancestors of the Nordic peoples (and others) left Africa at least 60,000 years ago. That is quite long enough to evolve the simple differences we call race.

To claim there is no such thing as race, is to go along with one of the more foolish 'politically correct' assertions, without regard for scientific or factual data. Human racial differences are clear cut and obvious, so why make yourself look stupid by arguing that something obvious does not exist?

I am not being racist. If I say that males and females are different in physical features, does that make me sexist? Am I racist by saying race exists? Of course not. I will not claim any one race is 'superior' or 'inferior' unless very strong empirical data exists to demonstrate that, and I have never seen such data.

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Re: Racism

Post by Hotair101 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:28 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Just to make my point clear, so there is no misinterpretation.

I have not been advocating any specific classification system for racial differences. Just saying that race exists. I have seen a number of systems suggested, and they are all, of course, quite subjective, and artificial.

I have no axe to grind on that point. If you want to follow one system, or another, that is up to you. I suspect they are all equally valid or equally invalid.
I just want to be clear too. I don't advocate any particular theory, that's the purpose of the thread, to try and see if everyone is of the same opinion and it seems not. Race/Racist is not as clear cut as some people might think.
To claim there is no such thing as race, is to go along with one of the more foolish 'politically correct' assertions, without regard for scientific or factual data. Human racial differences are clear cut and obvious, so why make yourself look stupid by arguing that something obvious does not exist?
Certainly not something I'd argue with you on but I think there are others who may?
I am not being racist. If I say that males and females are different in physical features, does that make me sexist? Am I racist by saying race exists? Of course not.
Glad you cleared that up, I did get called rascist for saying something similar. But again people here seem to differ on their meaning of the term 'rascist', something else I wanted to clear up. It's a confusing area when people seem to be singing from diffrent hymn sheets when it comes to definitions.

I've quoted myself below just to make sure there is no misunderstanding here.
Hotair: Of course there could be political reasons for the new way of thinking? It could be argued that the exchanging of the word 'race' to 'ethnicities' is just another PC stunt to move us away from the notion a minority of people hold that some 'races' are inferior to others. Could this be behind the dropping of the word 'race' altogether?
Just to be clear, I hope you didn't think I was insinuating that you were racist? I was just pointing out here that the moving away from the idea of multiply races could be a PC stunt.
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Re: Racism

Post by landrew » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:37 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Just to make my point clear, so there is no misinterpretation.

I have not been advocating any specific classification system for racial differences. Just saying that race exists. I have seen a number of systems suggested, and they are all, of course, quite subjective, and artificial.
Races exist like labels exist. Big deal.
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Re: Racism

Post by Gord » Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:40 pm

I have heard of the "female race," the "left-handed race" and the ... hang on, it's slipped my mind. Damn. I had a third one in mind that was a better example than the first two. Gotta stop posting with the tv on! Oh yes: The "gentle race."

The point is, all "races" are meant to be based on genetics, descendents of the same family line, but in reality they are based on appearances. This makes them nothing but illusions. And really that's all there is to it. Do illusions exist? Sure -- but not really.
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Re: Racism

Post by Aztexan » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:01 pm

If races were defined by rationality versus irrationality, then I would be a racist SOB.
I guess it's up to the reader to decide which race I belong to. :nose:
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Re: Racism

Post by Gord » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:04 pm

That's why I say, only racists believe in race. :donkey:
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Re: Racism

Post by Aztexan » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:53 pm

u tawk like wun uv them rashinalists
GET 'IM!!!
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:23 pm

Gord

Often you post excellent stuff, and I applaud them. Your comments on race, though, are a load of unscientific hogwash. Race is not genetic?????
Gord, you are currently living in fantasyland.

If a European with white skin, narrow nose and wavy hair, marries a similar European, their children will have white skin, narrow noses, and wavy hair. If an African with dark skin, broad nose and curly hair marries a similar African, their kids will have dark skin, broad noses, and curly hair. Guess what, Gord? It is genetics!!!

There is no illusion.

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Re: Racism

Post by Hotair101 » Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:11 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Gord

Often you post excellent stuff, and I applaud them. Your comments on race, though, are a load of unscientific hogwash. Race is not genetic?????
Gord, you are currently living in fantasyland.

If a European with white skin, narrow nose and wavy hair, marries a similar European, their children will have white skin, narrow noses, and wavy hair. If an African with dark skin, broad nose and curly hair marries a similar African, their kids will have dark skin, broad noses, and curly hair. Guess what, Gord? It is genetics!!!

There is no illusion.
Away with the fairies, now he's in fantasy land. Gee, how come he gets all the fun?
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:32 pm

To hotair.

Yeah, I know. It is no fun being a skeptic, having to keep your feet on the ground, and your head in the real world.

Much more fun ignoring reality, and walking with your feet in the air and head in the clouds. It is just that it makes you look like a fool, when you do that. Generally speaking, humans do not like looking silly. Those who are oblivious to such social pressures are called insane.

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Re: Racism

Post by Hotair101 » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:45 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:To hotair.

Yeah, I know. It is no fun being a skeptic, having to keep your feet on the ground, and your head in the real world.

Much more fun ignoring reality, and walking with your feet in the air and head in the clouds. It is just that it makes you look like a fool, when you do that. Generally speaking, humans do not like looking silly. Those who are oblivious to such social pressures are called insane.
Being kinda harsh aren't you?
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Re: Racism

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:50 am

Bob Marley's father was white, his mother black.
ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7YY55cGio0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Edited to day, Sorry, for some reason Bab Marley's Red,ed Wine won't come up when pasted here.
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Re: Racism

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:08 am

I think I see Gord's point. If there are racial differences, vive la difference, and who gives a flying f--k? Racial differences, sexual differences... hey, wait a second. I thought that that Hope Johnson on Idol the other night was darned cute. Very darned cute, and I think she could sing. Hard to tell from the brief clip. So, racial differences are fine, sexual differences can be terrific, or not, not that there's anything wrong with it. What the f.., hey, Tom, you're confusing me! Have another drink.
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Re: Racism

Post by brauneyz » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:39 am

Tom-Palven wrote:I think I see Gord's point. If there are racial differences, vive la difference, and who gives a flying f--k? Racial differences, sexual differences... hey, wait a second. I thought that that Hope Johnson on Idol the other night was darned cute. Very darned cute, and I think she could sing. Hard to tell from the brief clip. So, racial differences are fine, sexual differences can be terrific, or not, not that there's anything wrong with it. What the f.., hey, Tom, you're confusing me! Have another drink.
Hey Cuz, whatever you said above is cool with me. I'm drinking enough for both of us these days. :D

P.S. I don't think Gord's participating much these days. He must be working on his novel. 'Course, lots of us not participating so much any more... :frown:
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Re: Racism

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:49 am

Well, Gord was here just a few days ago, so I hope he's still with us. Oleg the Batty, on the other hand, seems to have gone off without saying goodbye. Is this a Canadian thing? Are they expiring from the cold up there?
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Re: Racism

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:10 am

A-number wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:Well, Gord was here just a few days ago, so I hope he's still with us. Oleg the Batty, on the other hand, seems to have gone off without saying goodbye. Is this a Canadian thing? Are they expiring from the cold up there?
Oleg just posted yesterday, so he is still with us. I miss Gord though, I hope he will show back up soon, that guy is bolt of Light :P .
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Re: Racism

Post by rrichar911 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:40 am

Saying that different races of people don't exist, seems to me to be equivalent to saying different breeds of dogs don't exist. i.e. all dogs are dogs. A German Shepard is the same as a weenie dog.

Seems to ignore the obvious.
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Re: Racism

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:36 am

Hi Oleg. Welcome back! Very glad that you're feeling better.
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Re: Racism

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:46 am

rrichar911 wrote:Saying that different races of people don't exist, seems to me to be equivalent to saying different breeds of dogs don't exist. i.e. all dogs are dogs. A German Shepard is the same as a weenie dog.

Seems to ignore the obvious.
Have you ever noticed? If you put the shepherd with the weenie dog, as far as they are concerned, they are both just dogs.
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Re: Racism

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:08 pm

Apparently they are not "carefully taught" not to associate with each other.
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Re: Racism

Post by bigtim » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:22 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
rrichar911 wrote:Saying that different races of people don't exist, seems to me to be equivalent to saying different breeds of dogs don't exist. i.e. all dogs are dogs. A German Shepard is the same as a weenie dog.

Seems to ignore the obvious.
Have you ever noticed? If you put the shepherd with the weenie dog, as far as they are concerned, they are both just dogs.
depends... if they can mate together sure, they're dogs. But some tiny dogs are nothing more than food for bigger dogs. I've had shepard/huskies try and kill the litlte purse dogs...as if they're an abomination...
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Re: Racism vs culture

Post by city slicker » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:17 pm

To what degree does culture influence intelligence? I am not talking about kids who grow up in poor,non book reading homes. I have personally known many of those who, though lacking in knowledge of facts, are quite intelligent in terms of problem solving and the ability to learn from experience. I am talking about cultural poverty and its effect on genetic intelligence over time- people who can't solve problems or learn from experience.

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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:34 pm

Culture effect on intelligence is profound.

Read up on the Flynn Effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This describes the rise in IQ that happens over several generations, which appears to be the result of a culture that is moving towards more academic emphasis.

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Re: Racism

Post by Monster » Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:38 am

landrew wrote:Could there be a more trivial genetic trait than skin pigment?
Yes! Nostril circumference.
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Re: Racism

Post by Major Malfunction » Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:00 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Culture effect on intelligence is profound.
The attitudes of family and friends (culture, peers) has a huge influence. Not on native intelligence. But knowledge.

Knowledge is a tool. A set of tools. That intelligence can wield.

Deny a carpenter a saw, what kind of house can he build?
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Re: Racism

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:35 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Culture effect on intelligence is profound.
The attitudes of family and friends (culture, peers) has a huge influence. Not on native intelligence. But knowledge.

Knowledge is a tool. A set of tools. That intelligence can wield.

Deny a carpenter a saw, what kind of house can he build?
A log cabin can be built with just an axe.
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Re: Racism

Post by fromthehills » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:55 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Culture effect on intelligence is profound.
The attitudes of family and friends (culture, peers) has a huge influence. Not on native intelligence. But knowledge.

Knowledge is a tool. A set of tools. That intelligence can wield.

Deny a carpenter a saw, what kind of house can he build?
A log cabin can be built with just an axe.
True, but it takes on another skill level to build anything worth a damn. I have much practice wielding an axe, because I'm a weirdo, and I might be able to build a nice cabin with an axe alone. A saw, and preferably one with power, is much more effective. The reason for people building log cabins in the first place was because saws were rare and very expensive. A guy with a homemade forge could produce an axe, but a saw was much harder, and required special equipment not available in the wilderness.

Sorry for the sidetrack, but this is the one area that I have knowledge of. I thought the metaphor was great.

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Re: Racism

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:41 pm

fromthehills wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Culture effect on intelligence is profound.
The attitudes of family and friends (culture, peers) has a huge influence. Not on native intelligence. But knowledge.

Knowledge is a tool. A set of tools. That intelligence can wield.

Deny a carpenter a saw, what kind of house can he build?
A log cabin can be built with just an axe.
True, but it takes on another skill level to build anything worth a damn. I have much practice wielding an axe, because I'm a weirdo, and I might be able to build a nice cabin with an axe alone. A saw, and preferably one with power, is much more effective. The reason for people building log cabins in the first place was because saws were rare and very expensive. A guy with a homemade forge could produce an axe, but a saw was much harder, and required special equipment not available in the wilderness.

Sorry for the sidetrack, but this is the one area that I have knowledge of. I thought the metaphor was great.
I also think its a good metaphor. A person skillful at applying intelligence can accomplish much with relatively little knowledge. Look what Archimedes did with far less knowledge than any modern school kid. Most people, though, are not as skilled as he, and require better tools (knowledge) to accomplish things.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

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Re: Racism

Post by Gord » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:38 am

I'd use bricks.

Jebus was a carpmenter. I wonder if Heaven is made of lumber?
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