Recurring doubt

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landrew
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Recurring doubt

Post by landrew » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:18 pm

It's common wisdom that you should never change an answer on a multiple-choice test, except when it's clear that you misunderstood the question. Our instincts and intuition usually guide us to the best answer, but our own over-thinking can often de-rail us from that path. A teacher once told our class that he had a student who was seen frantically erasing and changing answers throughout a test, but ended up failing it. He said the answers that had been erased were mostly the correct answers, and the student would have passed with an A if the answers hadn't been changed. Occam's Razor comes to mind.

Similarly, we hear hair-brained theories being widely published, such as: "The bony armored frill around the head of a horned dinosaur
(ceratopsians) was strictly for mating purposes, not defense from predators." Or: "It was only coincidental that many species went extinct around the time of the arrival of homo sapiens, including the neanderthals." Best of all, "Modern-day chickens are dinosaurs." All of this is nonsense, caused by over-thinking.

Secondarily, it gives a researcher an excuse to publish and to gain a bit of attention. Everyone wants to be the game-changer in history, even when there's no sane reason to change the game.
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by Pyrrho » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:21 pm

Yeah, when we don't really know, we should say that we don't really know.

Should have been phrased, "The bony armored frill around the head of a horned dinosaur (ceratopsians) may have been strictly for mating purposes, not defense from predators." and "Modern-day chickens may share a common ancestor with dinosaurs."

Followed by specific evidence.
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 01, 2019 12:20 am

Chickens are like 99% dinosaurs...........last I read. Just watch the embryo development. First stage like all of us is: Fish. But then dino for the chicken and then full on egg laying chicken....ummmmm, tastes good.

Like homo's have tails, so do chickens. the DNA code for tail is about the same for all: grow one more vertebrae right there. Dino's had the raw code....then chickens and homo's had another dna code sequence to STOP the vertebrates from growing....now!

Read a longish very interesting article about how Jurassic Park could well be established by mere "simple" manipulation of the on/off dna sequencing genes in a chicken. With the monthly reports on how cheaper and effective CRISPR is getting: how far off could a18 inch tall Velociraptor be?

What would its eggs taste like? Will some desk top nerd switch off the "stop growth now" sequence giving us T-Rex Chicken? Will T-Rex Chicken seek revenge against all mankind, or just Col Sanders?

Inquiring minds want to know...........

If you don't already know: google the chicken and find out why they lay so many eggs. Fascinating.
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by TJrandom » Wed May 01, 2019 6:11 am

What? Chickens aren't velociraptors? Who knew…

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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed May 01, 2019 7:01 am

TJrandom wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:11 am
What? Chickens aren't velociraptors? Who knew…
they taste the same.

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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by Gord » Wed May 01, 2019 11:39 am

Pyrrho wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:21 pm
Yeah, when we don't really know, we should say that we don't really know.

Should have been phrased, "The bony armored frill around the head of a horned dinosaur (ceratopsians) may have been strictly for mating purposes, not defense from predators." and "Modern-day chickens may share a common ancestor with dinosaurs."

Followed by specific evidence.
To be clear, you can say modern-day chickens are dinosaurs if you follow the reasoning that you never evolve out of a clade, so all descendants of dinosaurs are still dinosaurs, have always been dinosaurs, and will always be dinosaurs.

That means that all birds belong to the following groups:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Clade: Dinosauria
Order: Saurischia
Suborder: Theropoda
Clade: Euornithes
Clade: Ornithuromorpha
Clade: Ornithurae
Class: Aves

If you go to youtube, Aron Ra has some interesting videos on phylogenetics: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAJfDi ... kgSRZrjadw

Rethinking things to see if we've got them right is a useful tool. If anyone wants to call this "hair-brained" or "over-thinking", I suggest they throw away their computer and go back to living in the woods since pretty much all scientific advances would fall into the same category.
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by Tom Palven » Wed May 01, 2019 1:57 pm

Gord wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:39 am
Pyrrho wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:21 pm
Yeah, when we don't really know, we should say that we don't really know.

Should have been phrased, "The bony armored frill around the head of a horned dinosaur (ceratopsians) may have been strictly for mating purposes, not defense from predators." and "Modern-day chickens may share a common ancestor with dinosaurs."

Followed by specific evidence.
To be clear, you can say modern-day chickens are dinosaurs if you follow the reasoning that you never evolve out of a clade, so all descendants of dinosaurs are still dinosaurs, have always been dinosaurs, and will always be dinosaurs.

That means that all birds belong to the following groups:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Clade: Dinosauria
Order: Saurischia
Suborder: Theropoda
Clade: Euornithes
Clade: Ornithuromorpha
Clade: Ornithurae
Class: Aves

If you go to youtube, Aron Ra has some interesting videos on phylogenetics: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAJfDi ... kgSRZrjadw

Rethinking things to see if we've got them right is a useful tool. If anyone wants to call this "hair-brained" or "over-thinking", I suggest they throw away their computer and go back to living in the woods since pretty much all scientific advances would fall into the same category.
I watched the video and found it very interesting, but I don't understand clades or your groups, above.

Are you saying that birds belong to one clade or another, or that, say, a robin, can belong to more than one clade?

(Btw, there is an egg incubator next to my computer with around 35 chicken eggs in it, half of which are supposed to hatch today and the rest Sunday, but no activity at the moment.

These eggs are from Araucana x Golden Phoenix crosses. The Araucanas lay blue-green eggs and the Phoenixes are beautiful birds, with the males having very long tails. My project is to cross the F1s, if they hatch and survive, and try to breed a beautiful chicken that lays blue-green eggs.

I had some problems with the incubator thermometer a while back, and hope that I'm not going to lose this whole batch of eggs.)
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by Gord » Wed May 01, 2019 4:43 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 1:57 pm
Gord wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:39 am
Pyrrho wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:21 pm
Yeah, when we don't really know, we should say that we don't really know.

Should have been phrased, "The bony armored frill around the head of a horned dinosaur (ceratopsians) may have been strictly for mating purposes, not defense from predators." and "Modern-day chickens may share a common ancestor with dinosaurs."

Followed by specific evidence.
To be clear, you can say modern-day chickens are dinosaurs if you follow the reasoning that you never evolve out of a clade, so all descendants of dinosaurs are still dinosaurs, have always been dinosaurs, and will always be dinosaurs.

That means that all birds belong to the following groups:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Clade: Dinosauria
Order: Saurischia
Suborder: Theropoda
Clade: Euornithes
Clade: Ornithuromorpha
Clade: Ornithurae
Class: Aves

If you go to youtube, Aron Ra has some interesting videos on phylogenetics: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAJfDi ... kgSRZrjadw

Rethinking things to see if we've got them right is a useful tool. If anyone wants to call this "hair-brained" or "over-thinking", I suggest they throw away their computer and go back to living in the woods since pretty much all scientific advances would fall into the same category.
I watched the video and found it very interesting, but I don't understand clades or your groups, above.
Which video? Aron Ra has many videos. Here's one that talks about systematic phylogenetics (also known as Cladistic taxonomy):



He also has a series called Systematic Classification of Life which has 39 episodes so far:


Are you saying that birds belong to one clade or another, or that, say, a robin, can belong to more than one clade?
Yes. A clade is defined at wikipedia, for example, as a group of organisms that consists of a common ancestor and all its lineal descendants, and represents a single "branch" on the "tree of life". So for example the clade Ornithurae would be all the branches that lead from one ancestor, but does not necessarily contain all the descendants of the common ancestor of the clade Ornithuromorpha even though everything that is a member of Ornithurae is a member of Ornithuromorpha. Think of them as familial relationships -- if your grandfather had two sons (your father and your uncle) who each had two sons (you and your brother on the one hand, and two cousins on the other hand), you would all be members of the "clade" starting with your grandfather, but your cousins would not be members of the "clade" starting with your father.

All descendants of dinosaurs are therefore members of the clade Dinosauria.
(Btw, there is an egg incubator next to my computer with around 35 chicken eggs in it, half of which are supposed to hatch today and the rest Sunday, but no activity at the moment.

These eggs are from Araucana x Golden Phoenix crosses. The Araucanas lay blue-green eggs and the Phoenixes are beautiful birds, with the males having very long tails. My project is to cross the F1s, if they hatch and survive, and try to breed a beautiful chicken that lays blue-green eggs.

I had some problems with the incubator thermometer a while back, and hope that I'm not going to lose this whole batch of eggs.)
May all your chickens hatch. :mrgreen:
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"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by Tom Palven » Wed May 01, 2019 7:34 pm

Gord wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 4:43 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 1:57 pm
Gord wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:39 am
Pyrrho wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:21 pm
Yeah, when we don't really know, we should say that we don't really know.

Should have been phrased, "The bony armored frill around the head of a horned dinosaur (ceratopsians) may have been strictly for mating purposes, not defense from predators." and "Modern-day chickens may share a common ancestor with dinosaurs."

Followed by specific evidence.
To be clear, you can say modern-day chickens are dinosaurs if you follow the reasoning that you never evolve out of a clade, so all descendants of dinosaurs are still dinosaurs, have always been dinosaurs, and will always be dinosaurs.

That means that all birds belong to the following groups:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Clade: Dinosauria
Order: Saurischia
Suborder: Theropoda
Clade: Euornithes
Clade: Ornithuromorpha
Clade: Ornithurae
Class: Aves

If you go to youtube, Aron Ra has some interesting videos on phylogenetics: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAJfDi ... kgSRZrjadw

Rethinking things to see if we've got them right is a useful tool. If anyone wants to call this "hair-brained" or "over-thinking", I suggest they throw away their computer and go back to living in the woods since pretty much all scientific advances would fall into the same category.
I watched the video and found it very interesting, but I don't understand clades or your groups, above.
Which video? Aron Ra has many videos. Here's one that talks about systematic phylogenetics (also known as Cladistic taxonomy):



He also has a series called Systematic Classification of Life which has 39 episodes so far:


Are you saying that birds belong to one clade or another, or that, say, a robin, can belong to more than one clade?
Yes. A clade is defined at wikipedia, for example, as a group of organisms that consists of a common ancestor and all its lineal descendants, and represents a single "branch" on the "tree of life". So for example the clade Ornithurae would be all the branches that lead from one ancestor, but does not necessarily contain all the descendants of the common ancestor of the clade Ornithuromorpha even though everything that is a member of Ornithurae is a member of Ornithuromorpha. Think of them as familial relationships -- if your grandfather had two sons (your father and your uncle) who each had two sons (you and your brother on the one hand, and two cousins on the other hand), you would all be members of the "clade" starting with your grandfather, but your cousins would not be members of the "clade" starting with your father.

All descendants of dinosaurs are therefore members of the clade Dinosauria.
(Btw, there is an egg incubator next to my computer with around 35 chicken eggs in it, half of which are supposed to hatch today and the rest Sunday, but no activity at the moment.

These eggs are from Araucana x Golden Phoenix crosses. The Araucanas lay blue-green eggs and the Phoenixes are beautiful birds, with the males having very long tails. My project is to cross the F1s, if they hatch and survive, and try to breed a beautiful chicken that lays blue-green eggs.

I had some problems with the incubator thermometer a while back, and hope that I'm not going to lose this whole batch of eggs.)
May all your chickens hatch. :mrgreen:
I had watched the first video- Phylogeny Challenge.

Thank you for your explanation. I'm going to watch the other two videos, and chew on and try to digest your explanation later tis evening.

Still not a peep.
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu May 02, 2019 12:53 am

I never liked the word "clade". It is too damn non specific. If you want to know the proper classification of any group you should use the proper words, like phylum, class, order, family, genus, etc.

Birds are descended from dinosaurs, and remain the closest thing in the world today to dinosaurs. The exact classification of birds remains controversial. My own view is that we should bite the bullet and call Aves an order under the class Reptilia.

Then the reptiles would be divided into five orders.
Birds, the most successful reptiles.
Crocodiles and alligators.
Turtles and tortoises.
Snakes and lizards.
Tuatara.

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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by landrew » Thu May 02, 2019 1:00 am

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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by Tom Palven » Thu May 02, 2019 5:28 am

Still no baby chicks. I've incubated eggs a few times and have never had a complete failure. A storm knocked out power for a couple of hours about half way through the hatch. I covered the incubator with blankets and the temperature dropped from 100 F to the mid-90's before power was restored.

Whether that was enough to kill all the eggs I don't know. The other half of the eggs are supposed to hatch this coming Sunday. We'll see.

I still haven't seen he other videos, but intend to.
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu May 02, 2019 6:06 am

Can't you see if the chicks are alive with a strong flashlight?

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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by Tom Palven » Thu May 02, 2019 6:39 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 6:06 am
Can't you see if the chicks are alive with a strong flashlight?
That's a thought.

I don't know if I could tell that way, but I don't want to open the lid and mess with the incubator now. Either they are alive or not.

One thing I'd like to avoid, though, is exploding rotten eggs. That is one horrible stench.
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu May 02, 2019 6:57 am

Relatives of mine raise chicks, and they use a flashlight with which you can see the thing move inside the egg if alive - it reacts to the warmth.

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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu May 02, 2019 4:30 pm

My first "real" job was on a chicken ranch. Every egg got washed in soapy dish water, dried, and then "candled" by going over a bright light that allowed seeing inside the egg. Purpose was to affirm there were no fertilized eggs with an embryo of any size and to remove eggs with any "blood spot" or any cracks in the shell. Its fun to see how much of the human body will be visible with a very strong light source attached to it. Good for the same analysis used on chickens................
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by TJrandom » Thu May 02, 2019 11:17 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 6:57 am
Relatives of mine raise chicks, and they use a flashlight with which you can see the thing move inside the egg if alive - it reacts to the warmth.
We used a 100 watt light bulb. More warmth.

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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri May 03, 2019 10:45 am

Go to the light!
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by Gord » Sat May 04, 2019 2:41 pm

Schrödinger's chicks?
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by landrew » Sat May 11, 2019 4:09 pm

The chick hatchery hired a theoretical physicist, so they could print on the box: "The chickens in this box have a 50% probability of being either dead or alive."
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by Tom Palven » Sun May 12, 2019 2:59 pm

Well, I started up the incubator again this morning, with 16 eggs in it.

If all goes well, and they hatch around June 1, just a few males and females should be enough for the F1 generation, I would think. They would be hybrids of two pure strains, and should all be very much the same.

It would be the F2 generation, where a lot of diversity would be expected, where one would want a lot of birds to select from.
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by Gord » Mon May 13, 2019 10:36 pm

So the others didn't hatch at all?
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by TJrandom » Mon May 13, 2019 10:42 pm

Gord wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:36 pm
So the others didn't hatch at all?
I assume he ate them - waste not, want not. ;)

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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by landrew » Mon May 13, 2019 11:20 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:42 pm
Gord wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:36 pm
So the others didn't hatch at all?
I assume he ate them - waste not, want not. ;)
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by TJrandom » Tue May 14, 2019 7:41 am

landrew wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:20 pm
TJrandom wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:42 pm
Gord wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:36 pm
So the others didn't hatch at all?
I assume he ate them - waste not, want not. ;)
Balut!
Or... just rotten eggs. :shock:

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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by Tom Palven » Tue May 14, 2019 8:07 am

Gord wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:36 pm
So the others didn't hatch at all?
No, I even gave them a couple of extra days to make sure, and not a single egg hatched.

This time there are 16 large fresh eggs from young healthy chickens in the incubator which is holding perfectly at 100 degrees plus or minus about a half a degree, and I expect around a perfect hatch unless there is a power outage. One egg is exceptionally large, which may be due to a double yolk or something, and we'll see what happens with that one. (Could this end up with a breed of giant chickens? :D )
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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by TJrandom » Tue May 14, 2019 8:20 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:07 am
Gord wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:36 pm
So the others didn't hatch at all?
No, I even gave them a couple of extra days to make sure, and not a single egg hatched.

This time there are 16 large fresh eggs from young healthy chickens in the incubator which is holding perfectly at 100 degrees plus or minus about a half a degree, and I expect around a perfect hatch unless there is a power outage. One egg is exceptionally large, which may be due to a double yolk or something, and we'll see what happens with that one. (Could this end up with a breed of giant chickens? :D )
Erm... didjya have a rooster with the egg layer? :roll:

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Re: Recurring doubt

Post by Tom Palven » Tue May 14, 2019 9:45 am

TJrandom wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:20 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:07 am
Gord wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:36 pm
So the others didn't hatch at all?
No, I even gave them a couple of extra days to make sure, and not a single egg hatched.

This time there are 16 large fresh eggs from young healthy chickens in the incubator which is holding perfectly at 100 degrees plus or minus about a half a degree, and I expect around a perfect hatch unless there is a power outage. One egg is exceptionally large, which may be due to a double yolk or something, and we'll see what happens with that one. (Could this end up with a breed of giant chickens? :D )
Erm... didjya have a rooster with the egg layer? :roll:
Yes, a young healthy Golden Phoenix rooster with several Ameraucana hens, and a two young Ameraucana roosters with several Golden Phoenix hens contributed to the first batch of eggs.

This current batch of 16 eggs is from one Golden Phoenix rooster with "blue" (slate gray) legs, and 4 Ameraucana hens which were chosen for having large well-developed tails for Ameraucana hens.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/review ... ana.10835/
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