Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:46 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:57 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:50 pm
maunas wrote: PS: For Matthew; Genetic drift symbolizes "Entropy."
No. It represents random mutations. If the bad mutations are not fatal on their own, the environment then causes them to be removed from the ongoing gene pool. Therefore this directly contradicts your claim entropy causes evolution.
Genetic drift:
It's variation in the relative frequency of different genotypes in a small population, owing to the chance disappearance of particular genes as individuals die or do not reproduce. Entropy is not the appropriate word to describe this. Genes can disappear for other reasons besides mutations. In a small population, genes can disappear as a result of forming haploids in the process of forming both gametes in an offspring in a small population. A parent is unable to pass along all of it's genes due to the limited number of offspring.
Landrew,
You said "CHANCE disappearance". This implies randomness/disorder/entropy and so genetic drift in these species is 'entropy' trying to dissipate them to extinction.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:48 am

Randomness creates and randomness destroys.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:12 am

maunas wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:46 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:57 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:50 pm
maunas wrote: PS: For Matthew; Genetic drift symbolizes "Entropy."
No. It represents random mutations. If the bad mutations are not fatal on their own, the environment then causes them to be removed from the ongoing gene pool. Therefore this directly contradicts your claim entropy causes evolution.
Genetic drift:
It's variation in the relative frequency of different genotypes in a small population, owing to the chance disappearance of particular genes as individuals die or do not reproduce. Entropy is not the appropriate word to describe this. Genes can disappear for other reasons besides mutations. In a small population, genes can disappear as a result of forming haploids in the process of forming both gametes in an offspring in a small population. A parent is unable to pass along all of it's genes due to the limited number of offspring.
Landrew,
You said "CHANCE disappearance". This implies randomness/disorder/entropy and so genetic drift in these species is 'entropy' trying to dissipate them to extinction.
Mutations too are random phenomenon, thus, they represent entropy. The gene exchange during pachytene stage of haploid cell formation is also a random process, thus again entropy.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:26 am

If the gene lost by the chromatids during egg and sperm formation, or, by a (random) mutation is essential for adjusting to the niche, then, the progeny will not live to reproduce. On the other hand, all the other non essential genetic material will be lost by the species in the millions and billions of years of it's existence in it's niche.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:32 am

So, genetic drift, effectively halts further evolution in an extremely long lived species.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:44 am

To Lance,
Off course some mutations can bring about a neutral change in progeny, not effecting their chances of survival, so, if genetic drift favours their spread in the population then some insignificant change can be expected, but, in extemely long times of existence, because such probabilities are rare.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:33 pm

maunas wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:46 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:57 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:50 pm
maunas wrote: PS: For Matthew; Genetic drift symbolizes "Entropy."
No. It represents random mutations. If the bad mutations are not fatal on their own, the environment then causes them to be removed from the ongoing gene pool. Therefore this directly contradicts your claim entropy causes evolution.
Genetic drift:
It's variation in the relative frequency of different genotypes in a small population, owing to the chance disappearance of particular genes as individuals die or do not reproduce. Entropy is not the appropriate word to describe this. Genes can disappear for other reasons besides mutations. In a small population, genes can disappear as a result of forming haploids in the process of forming both gametes in an offspring in a small population. A parent is unable to pass along all of it's genes due to the limited number of offspring.
Landrew,
You said "CHANCE disappearance". This implies randomness/disorder/entropy and so genetic drift in these species is 'entropy' trying to dissipate them to extinction.
You are using the word "entropy" in the loosest and widest possible sense, and it's not appropriate in this case. Genetic drift is caused by a small genepool, where certain genes are omitted by chance and then lost to the genepool because of the small number of reproductions occurring.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:33 pm

landrew wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:57 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:50 pm
maunas wrote: PS: For Matthew; Genetic drift symbolizes "Entropy."
No. It represents random mutations. If the bad mutations are not fatal on their own, the environment then causes them to be removed from the ongoing gene pool. Therefore this directly contradicts your claim entropy causes evolution.
Genetic drift:
It's variation in the relative frequency of different genotypes in a small population, owing to the chance disappearance of particular genes as individuals die or do not reproduce. Entropy is not the appropriate word to describe this. Genes can disappear for other reasons besides mutations. In a small population, genes can disappear as a result of forming haploids in the process of forming both gametes in an offspring in a small population. A parent is unable to pass along all of it's genes due to the limited number of offspring.
Genetic drift is a mechanism of evolution in which allele frequencies of a population change over generations due to chance (sampling error). Genetic drift occurs in all populations of non-infinite size, but its effects are strongest in small populations.
During the periods of mass extinctions, populations of almost all organisms shrink. Most species get extinct, but till now, small populations of at least some species have survived. The time period of unfit for life conditions during which mass extinctions took place were pretty long. During these unhealthy long periods, genetic drift threw out useless genes as if they were a ballast being thrown down from an air ship.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:45 pm

landrew wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:33 pm
maunas wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:46 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:57 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:50 pm
maunas wrote: PS: For Matthew; Genetic drift symbolizes "Entropy."
No. It represents random mutations. If the bad mutations are not fatal on their own, the environment then causes them to be removed from the ongoing gene pool. Therefore this directly contradicts your claim entropy causes evolution.
Genetic drift:
It's variation in the relative frequency of different genotypes in a small population, owing to the chance disappearance of particular genes as individuals die or do not reproduce. Entropy is not the appropriate word to describe this. Genes can disappear for other reasons besides mutations. In a small population, genes can disappear as a result of forming haploids in the process of forming both gametes in an offspring in a small population. A parent is unable to pass along all of it's genes due to the limited number of offspring.
Landrew,
You said "CHANCE disappearance". This implies randomness/disorder/entropy and so genetic drift in these species is 'entropy' trying to dissipate them to extinction.
You are using the word "entropy" in the loosest and widest possible sense, and it's not appropriate in this case. Genetic drift is caused by a small genepool, where certain genes are omitted by chance and then lost to the genepool because of the small number of reproductions occurring.
Landrew,
Entropy has a universal spectrum in this universe. Doubts expressed by you regarding population sizes not being small enough for effective genetic drift is unwarranted as I have clarified in my just previous post.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:36 pm

Yet evolution still represents a reversal of entropy. This is possible due to the fact that it is a small subset in a much larger set of increasing entropy.

This happens in other areas, of course. Generating and transmitting electricity is governed by entropy, but a small subset is the charging of batteries, which represent a small scale reversal of entropy.

Large scale entropy can include a smaller subsystem in which entropy is reversed. The second law of thermodynamics is retained, because the net result is still an increase in entropy.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:10 am

maunas wrote: So, genetic drift, effectively halts further evolution in an extremely long lived species.
No, and no one said that. If the overall environment is not changing genetic drift of the phenotype will be eliminated by natural selection. However viruses are always quickly mutating and thus a species needs continual genetic variation that will in the long run be eliminated by natural selection if no new virus arises. Remember that I have already stated that mutation rates also evolve.

I think you really need to read Stephen Gould's "Eight little piggies" which will explain why your entropy claim makes no sense concerning evolution. His best example is old world fishes and fins.

Before old world fish moved to land, they had rear and front fins of three, four, five, six and seven radial bones ( early fingers). The number did not matter underwater, The most physically beneficial number of "early fingers" for walking on land is five. Thus all animals today have only five fingers per hand and foot. Evolution reduced the range of variations.

Can you see what I did? I replaced your incorrect use of the word "entropy" concerning evolution, with the expression range of variations ( mutations)

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:28 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:36 pm
Yet evolution still represents a reversal of entropy. This is possible due to the fact that it is a small subset in a much larger set of increasing entropy.

This happens in other areas, of course. Generating and transmitting electricity is governed by entropy, but a small subset is the charging of batteries, which represent a small scale reversal of entropy.

Large scale entropy can include a smaller subsystem in which entropy is reversed. The second law of thermodynamics is retained, because the net result is still an increase in entropy.
Lance,

This is what, even i had said. Earth being a living planet causes a small scale reversal of entropy. So life makes it thermodynamically a more open system, than any other heavenly body in the Solar system which does not harbour life, to capture the Sun's energy,to grow. In place of batteries i gave example of petroleum, coal and living things.

Rearding evolution i expressed my opinion that entropy/ minions of disorder/randomness is the reason behind the origin, evoluton and extinction of living things. In fact all the apparent order we see around us is transient, it has arisen from randomness, this universe, all existence is a random phenomenon. In this broad sense, evolution is also a random phenomenon. The order which we perceive in it is like a small segment of a random sketch on paper, because we are not seeing the whole, we are seeing a straight orderly line or some other orderly figure.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:21 am

maunas wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:48 am
Randomness creates and randomness destroys.
Adaption to an environment is not random. It is defined by the environment. The introduction of random mutations to a gene poll is one thing, but natural selectio to an environment., the second part of evolution, is another

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:04 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:10 am
maunas wrote: So, genetic drift, effectively halts further evolution in an extremely long lived species.
No, and no one said that. If the overall environment is not changing genetic drift of the phenotype will be eliminated by natural selection. However viruses are always quickly mutating and thus a species needs continual genetic variation that will in the long run be eliminated by natural selection if no new virus arises. Remember that I have already stated that mutation rates also evolve.

I think you really need to read Stephen Gould's "Eight little piggies" which will explain why your entropy claim makes no sense concerning evolution. His best example is old world fishes and fins.

Before old world fish moved to land, they had rear and front fins of three, four, five, six and seven radial bones ( early fingers). The number did not matter underwater, The most physically beneficial number of "early fingers" for walking on land is five. Thus all animals today have only five fingers per hand and foot. Evolution reduced the range of variations.

Can you see what I did? I replaced your incorrect use of the word "entropy" concerning evolution, with the expression range of variations ( mutations)
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:10 am
maunas wrote: So, genetic drift, effectively halts further evolution in an extremely long lived species.

Matthew,

I am unable to understand the first para of your post. Why will natural selection occur to change the phenotype of a species which is at it's peak of fitness for it's niche, that too when the overall environment is not changing?

I have already said that some variability in the gene pool is required to tide over infectious epidemics, other biotic and abiotc turmoils, even in an extremely long lived species.

Certainly mutation rates can evolve, there are many types, but in total, comparatively if you can see, there is a basal mutation rate minimum (determined mainly by the local environmentand niche), and, extremely long lived species have already evolved toards the minimum, as they are very well adjusted in their niches. Mutation rate increases are required only in species which are radiating into new species in new niches, emptied during previous mass extinction or are virgin. Such radiations are done by stem species, with high reproduction rates, and, which posses genes that dispose them with abilities of having a lot of non functional DNA..

Your claim that "the most physically beneficial number of 'early fingers' for walking on land is five" is, wrong. There is no special biomechanical advantage of having five digits only, in the initial common ancestor of tetrapods.



Michael Coates, associate professor in the department of Organismal Biology and Anatomy at the University of Chicago and co-editor of Evolution & Development, explains.
The condition of having no more than five fingers or toes--in this context, 'most species' means a subgroup of jawed vertebrates--probably evolved before the evolutionary divergence of amphibians (frogs, toads, salamanders and caecilians) and amniotes (birds, mammals, and reptiles in the loosest sense of the term). This event dates to approximately 340 million years ago in the Lower Carboniferous Period. Reduction from these polydactylous patterns to the more familiar arrangements of five or fewer digits accompanied the evolution of sophisticated wrist and ankle joints--both in terms of the number of bones present and the complex articulations among the constituent parts.

Is there really any good evidence that five, rather than, say, four or six, digits was biomechanically preferable for the common ancestor of modern tetrapods? The answer has to be "No," in part because a whole range of tetrapods have reduced their numbers of digits further still. In addition, we lack any six-digit examples to investigate. This leads to the second part of the answer, which is to note that although digit numbers can be reduced, they very rarely increase. In a general sense this trait reflects the developmental-evolutionary rule that it is easier to lose something than it is to regain it. Even so, given the immensity of evolutionary time and the extraordinary variety of vertebrate bodies, the striking absence of truly six-digit limbs in today's fauna highlights some sort of constraint. Moles' paws and pandas' thumbs are classic instances in which strangely re-modeled wrist bones serve as sixth digits and represent rather baroque solutions to the apparently straightforward task of growing an extra finger


Why this ancestral tetrapod had specifically five digits is still a mystery, though, according to Dr Justin Adams, a palaeontologist at Monash University.

“We know that in the Devonian there were many [fish-like] tetrapods with different digit ray numbers — five, seven, I believe up to 13 — but by the end of the period, we had only pentadactyl tetrapods,” he says.

Were five digits simply better than any other number? Any hypotheses “would be highly speculative without a lot of data on the types of selective pressures organisms at the time were facing,” says Adams.

“I would err on the side of caution and suggest that we simply don't 100% know the 'why' or 'how' of the narrowing of hand morphology to five digit rays in the Devonian," says Adams.




“Your post implies that the vertebrate dactyly plan got fairly locked about 340 million years ago in the Lower Carboniferous Period. And obviously evolution does not happen,”.

Essentially, we have five digits because our ancestors did.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:33 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:10 am
color=#000080]Can you see what I did? I replaced your incorrect use of the word "entropy" concerning evolution, with the expression range of variations ( mutations) [/color]
"the expression range of variations ( mutations)" is equivalent to saying that " Entropy is the number of possible arrangements of the state of your system."
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:01 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:21 am
maunas wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:48 am
Randomness creates and randomness destroys.
Adaption to an environment is not random. It is defined by the environment. The introduction of random mutations to a gene poll is one thing, but natural selectio to an environment., the second part of evolution, is another
Feathers initially adjusted the animal to survive and reproduce even in cold climatic conditions by keeping them warm but it's some other variations also helped them to glide. Still later variations adjusted them even for flight. These variations helped adjustment of life to new unoccupied niches, with abundant new opportunities for new types of food, and, space to populate.

Is it not possible that what we term as adaptation, and random adjustment of entropies of different entities (living thing and it's environment) are one and the same thing?
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:08 pm

maunas wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:01 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:21 am
maunas wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:48 am
Randomness creates and randomness destroys.
Adaption to an environment is not random. It is defined by the environment. The introduction of random mutations to a gene poll is one thing, but natural selectio to an environment., the second part of evolution, is another
Feathers initially adjusted the animal to survive and reproduce even in cold climatic conditions by keeping them warm but it's some other variations also helped them to glide. Still later variations adjusted them even for flight. These variations helped adjustment of life to new unoccupied niches, with abundant new opportunities for new types of food, and, space to populate.

Is it not possible that what we term as adaptation, and random adjustment of entropies of different entities (living thing and it's environment) are one and the same thing?
Since the term "adaptation" convey's an action on the part of an organism which is Lamarckian in view and has been disproved, We should see adaptation as a PASSIVE adjustment of the entropy responsible for genrating a structure with the entropies of various entities in it's environment.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:28 pm

Maunas

Forget entropy in evolution. Entropy is from thermodynamics. It is not a concept that is useful in biology. You cannot use it to gain new insights into how evolution works. It is just a clumsy and useless mental tool in this field, better replaced by discussions of variation, adaptation, and selection.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:19 pm

OK Fine.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:27 am

maunas" wrote: Is it not possible that what we term as adaptation, and random adjustment of entropies of different entities (living thing and it's environment) are one and the same thing?
No. You are trying really hard to push the word "entropy" into the theory of evolution for absolutely no reason.

A species evolves a rate of which it has new random mutations into its own gene pool. It is not the environment's entropy that causes the new mutation rate but the creatures already existing evolved DNA.

Most of the non-fatal resulting phenotypes of the new mutations enter the gene-pool. Depending on the environment, some phenotypes have an adaptive advantage and reproduce more and increase their gene frequency in the gene pool. This eliminates the randomness of new genes in the gene-pool.

It has nothing to do with the environment's increasing entropy.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:41 am

Some data:
Support is presented for the hypothesis that natural selection pushes mutation rates down to a lower limit set by the power of random genetic drift rather than by intrinsic physiological limitations, and that this has resulted in reduced levels of replication, transcription, and translation fidelity in eukaryotes relative to prokaryotes.

Trends Genet . Author manuscript; available in PMC 2011 Aug 1.
Published in final edited form as:
Trends Genet. 2010 Aug; 26(8): 345–352.
Published online 2010 Jun 30.
doi: [ 10.1016/j.tig.2010.05.003 ]
PMCID: PMC2910838
NIHMSID: NIHMS220215
PMID: 20594608
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:00 am

And some more data:
Generation time affects mutation rates: The long-lived woody bamboos (tribes
Arundinarieae and Bambuseae ) have lower mutation rates (short branches in the
phylogenetic tree ) than the fast-evolving herbaceous bamboos ( Olyreae ).
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:06 am

What to infer from the just above 2 observations?
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:41 am

I think they tell that, "mutation rates are higher in recently originated species and reduced in ancient species, and also that, RANDOM genetic drift is the cause.."
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:52 am

So, random genetic drift tends to prevent a species from evolving further.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:28 am

Now we can see how randomness produces order:
A very recently originated species has small population so the chisel of random genetic drift strikes strongest on it to give it an orderly shape.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:31 am

So, randomness creates as well as destroys (causes extinctions).
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:37 am

maunas wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:06 am
What to infer from the just above 2 observations?
If the mutation rate introducing new genes is too fast the species does not pass down the best combination of adaptions to meet the environment as too many new genes flood the gene pool.

If the mutation rate introducing new genes is too slow the species cannot have enough variety to counter new small changes to the environment such as new viruses.

This is why mutation rates are also evolved in a species.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:39 am

maunas wrote: Now we can see how randomness produces order: A very recently originated species has small population so the chisel of random genetic drift strikes strongest on it to give it an orderly shape.
You are using words to artificially make the two different processes of evolution to appear as one process.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:13 am

There are many factors determining mutation rates. For example, the mopping up of mutation inducing free radicals and oxidizing compounds, the repair of the DNA molecule when copy errors creep in, and even the induction of cell suicide to eliminate cells with harmful mutations.

All these are subject to natural selection, and thus the rate of mutation can be controlled to something advantageous to the species. Control of mutation rate by natural selection.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:23 am

But optimum mutation rates induced by these factors are finally dependent on the genes available in the gene pool. And all those genes are again affected by RANDOM genetic drifts.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:36 am

So, not only abiogenesis but also the evolution of life is a RANDOM phenomenon.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:41 am

So, natural selection is an OSTENSIVE APPARITION.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:46 pm

The evolution of pathogens resistant to antibiotics/antivirals is due to ARTIFICIAL SELECTION in an orderly body.


Production of highly selective antibodies for killing a pathogen, is through the process of clonal deletion of lymphocytes which fail to express antibodies on their surface capable of binding to an antigen belonging to the pathogen. The variety of antibodies displayed on different lymphocytes are produced by random transcriptions
Of genes present in the HLA, complex of the the animals leukocytes.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:53 pm

Genetic draft is ineffective in case of pathogens because of their high population density in the living body.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:19 pm

maunas wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:36 am
So, not only abiogenesis but also the evolution of life is a RANDOM phenomenon.
Mutations are randome events, but the results are not random, they are derandomized by a number of factors, including natural selection, environment etc.

Why do you want it to be either totally random, or no random events at all?
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:48 pm

Oleg,

I feel that i am not being able to convey clearly, what i want to express, and, i am being misunderstood. Allow me to try once again:

Firstly, i want to declare that, "i don't have any preconceived theory, neither am i emotionally attached to any previously propounded ones, nor i wish to be emotionally attached to any future ones.
I am merely expressing skepticism."

So Oleg,
You may have got the impression that i want origin and evolution of life to be either totally random, or non random.

At present i am trying to check the truth of my hunch, that, order is derived or contained as a small segment of infinite disorder and, that is why it is transient.


1) Randomness/unpredictability/disorder/indefinite/haphazard....
like words convey similar meaning.
2)
The opposite meaning is conveyed by words like:
Organized/predictable/order/calculability/deterministic....like words

Not all mutations are random, some are promoted by mutation promoter genes in a certain direction.
For example: Though initially useful, but with passage of many generations the antlers of a certain ancient species of deer which had continued to mutate to bigger and still bigger size, finally became so unwieldy that the deer could not lift his head properly and became extinct. Here we can see that first, order (antler like useful structure is created via a mutation) was promoted by a new configuration of DNA, that had happened due to a a random mutation in the genome. But, after many generations, the same configuration of DNA becomes the cause of a disorder ( unwieldy antlers). Here We see a genetic disorder becoming order and then again a disorder. WHERE IS THE NATURAL SELECTION AND ADAPTATION HERE?
Singularity! Because entangled.

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:07 pm

I would be very surprised to see a deer extinction from antler size alone. I am skeptical.
More likely some other factor was also at play, such as a new predator ( like humans? ).

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Gord
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Gord » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:42 am

maunas wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:48 pm
For example: Though initially useful, but with passage of many generations the antlers of a certain ancient species of deer which had continued to mutate to bigger and still bigger size, finally became so unwieldy that the deer could not lift his head properly and became extinct. Here we can see that first, order (antler like useful structure is created via a mutation) was promoted by a new configuration of DNA, that had happened due to a a random mutation in the genome. But, after many generations, the same configuration of DNA becomes the cause of a disorder ( unwieldy antlers). Here We see a genetic disorder becoming order and then again a disorder. WHERE IS THE NATURAL SELECTION AND ADAPTATION HERE?
I'll take this as a hypothetical to avoid arguing over the little details.

Whatever evolutionary forces there were that selected for larger antlers would have been countered by evolutionary forces that selected for smaller antlers. For instance, sexual selection may favour larger antlers, but unwieldiness may favour smaller antlers. Individuals that survive will tend towards the largest possible antlers.

If predation forces change, larger-antlered individuals may suddenly face new survival challenges. This will result in smaller-antlered individuals becoming more favoured. If predation forces change drastically, the species may not have time to adapt and will face extinction.
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maunas
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:05 am

Thank you Gord, Thank you Lance,

Here is a non hypothetical seeming example.

The net result of our study is to raise questions about the reigning hypothesis that “tough times” during the late Pleistocene contributed to the gradual extinction of large carnivores,” DeSantis summarized. “While we can not determine the exact cause of their demise, it is unlikely that the extinction of these cats was a result of gradually declining prey (due either to changing climates or human competition) because their teeth tell us that these cats were not desperately consuming entire carcasses, as we had expected, and instead seemed to be living the ‘good life’ during the late Pleistocene, at least up until the very end.”

Reference:

https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2012/12/26/ ... xtinction/
Singularity! Because entangled.