Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:37 pm

maunas wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:22 pm
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:03 pm
Life has two characteristics. Evolution and reproduction.

It has always amused me that most of the lists of characteristics published for living things would make a forest fire into a living thing. But a forest fire cannot evolve.

Mind you. Even my two are not perfect. There are software programs that exhibit evolution and reproduction, but I do not think those two factors exist in the real world when they exist only in the virtual world of a computer.
During the pre- proto cell era reproduction was due to more or less random factors, while,, evolution has been a universal phenomenon always.
We have nothing in our era to compare to these purported very early stages of abiogenesis. Everything about replication and increasing complexity is moving farther and farther away from randomness and entropy. Everything about life on our planet, and our planet itself is anti-entropy.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:40 pm

landrew wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:09 pm
maunas wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:29 pm

How were the self replicating RNA's shielded from destruction by the intense ionizing radiations impinging the earth, in that era?
I was talkiing of pre-proto cell era..
It's been awhile since I read about this theory of abiogenesis, but I think it is believed to have happened in the ocean, where the water provided the radiation shielding.
Oceans would have very effectively diluted the RNA's and the fatty acids required for the formation of proto-cell vesicles .
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:30 pm

maunas wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:40 pm
landrew wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:09 pm
maunas wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:29 pm

How were the self replicating RNA's shielded from destruction by the intense ionizing radiations impinging the earth, in that era?
I was talkiing of pre-proto cell era..
It's been awhile since I read about this theory of abiogenesis, but I think it is believed to have happened in the ocean, where the water provided the radiation shielding.
Oceans would have very effectively diluted the RNA's and the fatty acids required for the formation of proto-cell vesicles .
No one can say what the actual conditions may have been. For all we know, if may have occurred in fissures deep inside the earth. This is a highly speculative theory, and few of us are qualified to defend it.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:12 am

Maunas

In the time before the first life, there was no reproduction because there was no life. Once the first life form appeared, no matter how small and simple, there was reproduction and evolution.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:49 am

Kennedy

Regarding prebiotic evolution, the link below may interest you.

https://rdcu.be/bbhJB
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:57 pm

maunas wrote:The first so understood simple organisms were characterised by the greatest number of possible configurations of interactions between the molecules in and around their bodies.
Matthew Ellard wrote:I don't think that is true. The first simple organisms were characterised by their ability to self replicate the same RNA . Simply being characterised by the greatest number of interactions between molecules in the greatest number of configurations, does not mean the thing can self replicate ( reproduce)
maunas wrote:How were the self replicating RNA's shielded from destruction by the intense ionizing radiations impinging the earth, in that era?
They were under water. All life on Earth came from under water.

You need to read a basic book on how life on Earth evolved.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:06 am

maunas" wrote: Oceans would have very effectively diluted the RNA's and the fatty acids required for the formation of proto-cell vesicles .
Compared to what? The early atmosphere was hydrogen sulfide, methane, and carbon dioxide. There was no oxygen in the atmosphere until 2.5 billion years ago. Life started 3.8 billion years ago.

We already know that life started on Earth under water, which means the conditions were right. What point are you even arguing?

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:25 am

Maunas doesn't understand the system. The microsystems would be in the tidal pools, not in the ocean at large.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:50 pm

The amount of knowledge available for replicating the abiogenic origin of life on early earth, (in a lab), today, is tremendous. Using this data a computer should have been successful in deciding the steps by now, and the experiment declared a success.
See a small sample of the wonderful knowledge
Here:: https://www.nature.com/subjects/origin-of-life

In spite of all these resources we have not been successful. It seems, some basics maybe are erroneous.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:31 pm

Like I said...
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:40 pm

maunas wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:50 pm
The amount of knowledge available for replicating the abiogenic origin of life on early earth, (in a lab), today, is tremendous. Using this data a computer should have been successful in deciding the steps by now, and the experiment declared a success.
See a small sample of the wonderful knowledge
Here:: https://www.nature.com/subjects/origin-of-life

In spite of all these resources we have not been successful. It seems, some basics maybe are erroneous.
Not really. Producing nucleotides and amino acids in a lab is a long, long way from replicating abiogenic life.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:51 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:40 pm
maunas wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:50 pm
The amount of knowledge available for replicating the abiogenic origin of life on early earth, (in a lab), today, is tremendous. Using this data a computer should have been successful in deciding the steps by now, and the experiment declared a success.
See a small sample of the wonderful knowledge
Here:: https://www.nature.com/subjects/origin-of-life

In spite of all these resources we have not been successful. It seems, some basics maybe are erroneous.
Not really. Producing nucleotides and amino acids in a lab is a long, long way from replicating abiogenic life.
PREBIOTIC RNA POLYMERIZATION

Assuming the presence of pools of RNA nucleotides, how did long strands of RNA form on the early Earth?

One possibility is that strands of RNA could have formed in salty ice water. David Deamer's lab at the University of California at Santa Cruz has found that the process of freezing a dilute solution of chemically activated RNA nucleotides causes the nucleotides to become concentrated as ice crystals form, eventually resulting in the formation of strands of RNA.

PREBIOTIC RNA REPLICATION

Even in the absence of enzymatic catalysts, single-stranded RNAs may have been able to copy strands of RNA through template-directed polymerization. This process has been confirmed by experiments performed in Jack Szostak's Lab (MGH/Harvard) using chemically activated nucleotides

For more details see: http://exploringorigins.org/nucleicacids.html
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:54 pm

maunas wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:39 am
The first so understood simple organisms were characterised by the greatest number of possible configurations of interactions between the molecules in and around their bodies. That is to say, so called simple life originates in an environment of high entropy values, BUT, in order for their living organisations to get fixed, they should be lucky enough to get exposed and survive a freeze- thaw cycle. In other words, fluctuations of high and low entropy in the environment, selects a molecular structure to allow it's entry into the realm of life.
The freeze - thaw cycle or in other words fluctuations of high and low entropy requirement in the environment required for abiogenic origin of life experiment to be successful was suggested in this post.
The following statement in the previous post supports this, as it say:
Another possibility is that strands of RNA could have formed in salty ice water. David Deamer's lab at the University of California at Santa Cruz has found that the process of freezing a dilute solution of chemically activated RNA nucleotides causes the nucleotides to become concentrated as ice crystals form, eventually resulting in the formation of strands of RNA.
So self replicating ribozymes are shown here to have been produced in a low entropy salty ice water, whereas the RNA nucleotides were produced as far as we know, in a high entropy environment.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:46 pm

Krebs cycle could have emerged from a non-enzymatic precursor that forms spontaneously in the presence of sulfate radicals.

Sulfate radicals enable a non-enzymatic Krebs cycle precursor
Markus A. Keller, Domen Kampjut[…]Markus Ralser
Nature Ecology & Evolution volume 1, Article number: 0083
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:58 pm

Geothermal fields could provide the right setup for establishing wet–dry cycles (ENTROPY) that allow for the synthesis of RNA nucleosides by continuous synthesis. Providing both the canonical and many ubiquitous non-canonical purine nucleosides in parallel by simple changes of physical parameters such as temperature, pH and concentration. The data show that modified nucleosides were potentially formed as competitor molecules. They could in this sense be considered as molecular fossils.

Nature Communicationsvolume 9, Article number: 163 (2018)
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:23 pm

maunas wrote:Geothermal fields could provide the right setup for establishing wet–dry cycles (ENTROPY) that allow for the synthesis of RNA was the right timenucleosides by continuous synthesis.
Aren't you simply saying the right time was the right time in Earth's changing environment? That's the reason, not Entropy, itself, as causation.

If I set fire to a house with a match, it is the burning match that is the reason, not rapid oxidation of the match head.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:46 pm

Ribozyme function is likely to require strands of RNAs that are composed of at least 30-40 nucleotides. Research from James Ferris' group at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute suggests that the formation of long strands of RNA may have been catalyzed by clays such as montmorillonite. The charged clay surface attracts the nucleotides and the increased local concentration of nucleotides causes bond formation between nucleotides, forming a polymer of RNA.

In this case too, the charged montmorillonite like clays are freezing/reducing entropy of free nucleotides by forming a polymer out of them.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:05 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:23 pm
maunas wrote:Geothermal fields could provide the right setup for establishing wet–dry cycles (ENTROPY) that allow for the synthesis of RNA was the right timenucleosides by continuous synthesis.
Aren't you simply saying the right time was the right time in Earth's changing environment? That's the reason, not Entropy, itself, as causation.

If I set fire to a house with a match, it is the burning match that is the reason, not rapid oxidation of the match head.
Entropy is the number of possible arrangements of the state of your system. I am suggesting that when entropy is high, there are moments when interactions and configurations of molecules is such that they can serve as prebiotic ancestors of the biotic world molecules. Exactly at this moment, such a configuration of prebiotic molecules has to get fixed by an environmental factor, which consumes the excess entropy, so that, the prebiotic ancestor system of the biotic world survives. This excess entropy consumer can be salty water ice, wet dry cycles, montmorillonite clay etc. SO I AM SAYING NOT ONLY CHANGE IN ENTROPY'S AT THE RIGHT TIME BUT ALSO ADJUSTMENT OF THE ENTROPY'S OF VARIOUS PREBIOTIC SYSTEMS WOTH EACH OTHER IN SUCH WAYS AMD PLACES THAT THEY BLOOM OUT AS A BIOTIC WORD.

The change in earths environment at the right time which you are saying is right, but, note that the cause of this change is the second law of thermodynamics. According to which increasing entropy of the universe is the cause of all change. The orders and laws for predictability which we see in our Newtonian and Einsteinian universe are in existence only till all excess entropy is being adjusted or consumed by comparatively lower entropy entities. For example at the level of galaxies it is generally their central black hole.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:23 am

The biosphere is not a closed system. Entropy is a null concept in an open system. More energy is provided by solar radiation than all they systems on Earth combined can put to use. Your hypothesis is flopping on the ground like a beheaded goose.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:30 am

maunas wrote: The change in earths environment at the right time which you are saying is right, but, note that the cause of this change is the second law of thermodynamics.
Oleg the Batty explains, above, why your claim is flawed. The Earth was not a closed system. You also seem to be forgetting about the changing environment over time and accumulating complex carbon molecule formed in earlier periods.

May I ask you to clearly set out your claim, again, using the common meaning of scientific terms.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:33 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:30 am
, using the common meaning of scientific terms. [/color]
That would be nice.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:11 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:23 am
The biosphere is not a closed system. Entropy is a null concept in an open system. More energy is provided by solar radiation than all they systems on Earth combined can put to use. Your hypothesis is flopping on the ground like a beheaded goose.
You rightly said that earths biosphere has to be considered an open system because it every day receives the decay from it's sun on which life on earth feeds to save itself, as well as grow against the increasing entropy of the universe.
BUT, OLEG, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT THAT I AM AT PRESENT TALKING OF AN EARTH WHICH HAS NO BIOSPHERE. IT WAS AT THAT TIME PREBIOTIC, SO , IT''S
CONTENTS WERE EXPERIENCING THE INCREASING ENTROPY OF A CLOSED SYSTEM. EVEN TODAY, EARTH IS PART OF AN UNIVERSE WHICH IN GENERAL IS UNDERSTOOD TO BE A CLOSED SYSTEM.. THE LOCAL OPEN SYSTEM EFFECT EXPERIECED BY THE BIOSPHERE TODAY due to energy captured from the Sun does not NULLIFY THE CLOSED SYSTEM EFFECTS OF ENTROPY OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE ON EARTH. Life demonstrates a local open system effect on earth but does not stop experiencing the genral closed system increase in entropy of the universe. ENTITIES OF A PURE OPEN SYSTEM WOULD BE IMMORTAL.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:18 am

maunas wrote: You rightly said that earths biosphere has to be considered an open system because it every day receives the decay from it's sun on which life on earth feeds to save itself, as well as grow against the increasing entropy of the universe. BUT, OLEG, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT THAT I AM AT PRESENT TALKING OF AN EARTH WHICH HAS NO BIOSPHERE. IT WAS AT THAT TIME PREBIOTIC, SO , IT''S CONTENTS WERE EXPERIENCING THE INCREASING ENTROPY OF A CLOSED SYSTEM.


The sun was radiating on Earth, all through Earth's history, even before life evolved. Why are you claiming it was a closed system?

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:56 am

Mike the Headless Chicken lived for 18 months after being beheaded, so there!

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:15 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:18 am
maunas wrote: You rightly said that earths biosphere has to be considered an open system because it every day receives the decay from it's sun on which life on earth feeds to save itself, as well as grow against the increasing entropy of the universe. BUT, OLEG, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT THAT I AM AT PRESENT TALKING OF AN EARTH WHICH HAS NO BIOSPHERE. IT WAS AT THAT TIME PREBIOTIC, SO , IT''S CONTENTS WERE EXPERIENCING THE INCREASING ENTROPY OF A CLOSED SYSTEM.


The sun was radiating on Earth, all through Earth's history, even before life evolved. Why are you claiming it was a closed system?
Prebiotic earth was majorly a closed system because photosynthesis to capture the sun's energy and then using it counter the genral increase in entropy had not yet come in to existence. Without plants the earth will majorly behave as a closed system. Oleg said "BIOSPHERE".
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:25 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:The sun was radiating on Earth, all through Earth's history, even before life evolved. Why are you claiming it was a closed system?
maunas wrote: Prebiotic earth was majorly a closed system because photosynthesis to capture the sun's energy and then using it counter the genral increase in entropy had not yet come in to existence. Without plants the earth will majorly behave as a closed system. Oleg said "BIOSPHERE".
That makes no sense whatsoever. Photosynthesis evolved 2.3 billion years ago. Life on Earth commenced 3.8 billion years ago using radiation from the sun in other ways.....like not freezing. How do you claim Earth was a closed system before photosynthesis?

Can you please set out your exact claim using the common meaning of scientific terms.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:00 am

Mathew,
It looks like you have not even read the OP of this topic.
It clearly states that the fossils of prokaryotic bacteria studied are 3.465 billion years old and that they were primitive photosynthesizers.

Two of the five species the researchers studied were primitive photosynthesizers, one was an Archaeal methane producer, and two others were methane consumers.

Not freezing indicates increased entropy.

Life, which existed before photosynthesis depended on the heat and chemicals of geothermal vents below the oceans and the process of geothermal venting is a process which signifies a increase in the entropy of earth., So at that time earth has to be considered a closed system in spite of receiving energy from the sun.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:06 am

PS: Sorry for the spelling mistake in your name.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:04 pm

maunas wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:15 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:18 am
maunas wrote: You rightly said that earths biosphere has to be considered an open system because it every day receives the decay from it's sun on which life on earth feeds to save itself, as well as grow against the increasing entropy of the universe. BUT, OLEG, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT THAT I AM AT PRESENT TALKING OF AN EARTH WHICH HAS NO BIOSPHERE. IT WAS AT THAT TIME PREBIOTIC, SO , IT''S CONTENTS WERE EXPERIENCING THE INCREASING ENTROPY OF A CLOSED SYSTEM.


The sun was radiating on Earth, all through Earth's history, even before life evolved. Why are you claiming it was a closed system?
Prebiotic earth was majorly a closed system because photosynthesis to capture the sun's energy and then using it counter the genral increase in entropy had not yet come in to existence. Without plants the earth will majorly behave as a closed system. Oleg said "BIOSPHERE".
The lithosphere isn't closed either.

No amount of flopping will make these systems where solar energy won't overwhelm any localized entopic reactions.

PS . Entropy is the lack of energy available to do work. By definition, it can't cause anything. There's no energy available to do so.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:01 am

maunas wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:00 am
Mathew, It looks like you have not even read the OP of this topic.
I simply read your incorrect claim about entropy and that early Earth was a closed system when it clearly wasn't.

If the early life used an early version of photosynthesis, which is debatable, you can't claim the sun wasn't an input.


Can you please set out your exact claim using the common meaning of scientific terms.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:14 am

I do understand what Maunas is getting at. In the first billion years or so, life on Earth did not photosynthesize . It was chemosynthetic, and the energy in the chemical compounds it used were frequently from geothermal processes, which derives its energy from nuclear fission. It is not known if sunlight played a part in those early days.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:12 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:04 pm
maunas wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:15 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:18 am
maunas wrote: You rightly said that earths biosphere has to be considered an open system because it every day receives the decay from it's sun on which life on earth feeds to save itself, as well as grow against the increasing entropy of the universe. BUT, OLEG, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT THAT I AM AT PRESENT TALKING OF AN EARTH WHICH HAS NO BIOSPHERE. IT WAS AT THAT TIME PREBIOTIC, SO , IT''S CONTENTS WERE EXPERIENCING THE INCREASING ENTROPY OF A CLOSED SYSTEM.


The sun was radiating on Earth, all through Earth's history, even before life evolved. Why are you claiming it was a closed system?
Prebiotic earth was majorly a closed system because photosynthesis to capture the sun's energy and then using it counter the genral increase in entropy had not yet come in to existence. Without plants the earth will majorly behave as a closed system. Oleg said "BIOSPHERE".
The lithosphere isn't closed either.

No amount of flopping will make these systems where solar energy won't overwhelm any localized entopic reactions.

PS . Entropy is the lack of energy available to do work. By definition, it can't cause anything. There's no energy available to do so.
When the number of possible arrangements of the state of your system can no more be increased, a state of homogeneity is reached, so, no more work is available to be done, THIS IS A STATE OF MAXIMUM ENTROPY/sometimes this is understood as a state of maximum disooder. DO NOT CONFUSE LACK OF WORK WITH LACK OF ENERGY.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Gord » Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:23 am

maunas wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:12 am
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:04 pm
maunas wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:15 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:18 am
maunas wrote: You rightly said that earths biosphere has to be considered an open system because it every day receives the decay from it's sun on which life on earth feeds to save itself, as well as grow against the increasing entropy of the universe. BUT, OLEG, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT THAT I AM AT PRESENT TALKING OF AN EARTH WHICH HAS NO BIOSPHERE. IT WAS AT THAT TIME PREBIOTIC, SO , IT''S CONTENTS WERE EXPERIENCING THE INCREASING ENTROPY OF A CLOSED SYSTEM.


The sun was radiating on Earth, all through Earth's history, even before life evolved. Why are you claiming it was a closed system?
Prebiotic earth was majorly a closed system because photosynthesis to capture the sun's energy and then using it counter the genral increase in entropy had not yet come in to existence. Without plants the earth will majorly behave as a closed system. Oleg said "BIOSPHERE".
The lithosphere isn't closed either.

No amount of flopping will make these systems where solar energy won't overwhelm any localized entopic reactions.

PS . Entropy is the lack of energy available to do work. By definition, it can't cause anything. There's no energy available to do so.
When the number of possible arrangements of the state of your system can no more be increased, a state of homogeneity is reached, so, no more work is available to be done, THIS IS A STATE OF MAXIMUM ENTROPY/sometimes this is understood as a state of maximum disooder. DO NOT CONFUSE LACK OF WORK WITH LACK OF ENERGY.
You're wrong. Planets that receive energy from a nearby star are not closed systems.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:01 am

maunas wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:12 am
When the number of possible arrangements of the state of your system can no more be increased, a state of homogeneity is reached
The sun is still sending radiation to Earth. Why do you keep incorrectly claiming early Earth was a closed system?
maunas wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:12 am
DO NOT CONFUSE LACK OF WORK WITH LACK OF ENERGY.
How is the sun's radiation a "lack of energy"?

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:32 am

Gord wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:23 am
maunas wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:12 am
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:04 pm
maunas wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:15 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:18 am
maunas wrote: You rightly said that earths biosphere has to be considered an open system because it every day receives the decay from it's sun on which life on earth feeds to save itself, as well as grow against the increasing entropy of the universe. BUT, OLEG, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT THAT I AM AT PRESENT TALKING OF AN EARTH WHICH HAS NO BIOSPHERE. IT WAS AT THAT TIME PREBIOTIC, SO , IT''S CONTENTS WERE EXPERIENCING THE INCREASING ENTROPY OF A CLOSED SYSTEM.


The sun was radiating on Earth, all through Earth's history, even before life evolved. Why are you claiming it was a closed system?
Prebiotic earth was majorly a closed system because photosynthesis to capture the sun's energy and then using it counter the genral increase in entropy had not yet come in to existence. Without plants the earth will majorly behave as a closed system. Oleg said "BIOSPHERE".
The lithosphere isn't closed either.

No amount of flopping will make these systems where solar energy won't overwhelm any localized entopic reactions.

PS . Entropy is the lack of energy available to do work. By definition, it can't cause anything. There's no energy available to do so.
When the number of possible arrangements of the state of your system can no more be increased, a state of homogeneity is reached, so, no more work is available to be done, THIS IS A STATE OF MAXIMUM ENTROPY/sometimes this is understood as a state of maximum disooder. DO NOT CONFUSE LACK OF WORK WITH LACK OF ENERGY.
You're wrong. Planets that receive energy from a nearby star are not closed systems.
Sorry Gord, but, you are wrong. The solar system (including the sun obviously) form a closed system. The universe as a whole is a closed system, that is why we experience an arrow of time. This should be clear from the second law of thermodynamics.
Singularity! Because entangled.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:59 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:04 pm
maunas wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:15 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:18 am
maunas wrote: You rightly said that earths biosphere has to be considered an open system because it every day receives the decay from it's sun on which life on earth feeds to save itself, as well as grow against the increasing entropy of the universe. BUT, OLEG, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT THAT I AM AT PRESENT TALKING OF AN EARTH WHICH HAS NO BIOSPHERE. IT WAS AT THAT TIME PREBIOTIC, SO , IT''S CONTENTS WERE EXPERIENCING THE INCREASING ENTROPY OF A CLOSED SYSTEM.


The sun was radiating on Earth, all through Earth's history, even before life evolved. Why are you claiming it was a closed system?
Prebiotic earth was majorly a closed system because photosynthesis to capture the sun's energy and then using it counter the genral increase in entropy had not yet come in to existence. Without plants the earth will majorly behave as a closed system. Oleg said "BIOSPHERE".
The lithosphere isn't closed either.

No amount of flopping will make these systems where solar energy won't overwhelm any localized entopic reactions.

PS . Entropy is the lack of energy available to do work. By definition, it can't cause anything. There's no energy available to do so.
EARLY EARTH WAS SO HOT AND TURBULENT THAT IF SOLAR ENERGY COULD OVERWHELM MOST OF THE LOCALIZED ENTROPIC REACTIONS, EARTH WOULD NOT HAVE COOLED DOWN AND LIFE COULD NOT HAVE ORIGINATED.
Singularity! Because entangled.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by maunas » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:17 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:01 am
maunas wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:12 am
When the number of possible arrangements of the state of your system can no more be increased, a state of homogeneity is reached
The sun is still sending radiation to Earth. Why do you keep incorrectly claiming early Earth was a closed system?
maunas wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:12 am
DO NOT CONFUSE LACK OF WORK WITH LACK OF ENERGY.
How is the sun's radiation a "lack of energy"?
I have answered your first question in the just previous post.

The answer for the second question is like:
When heat flows from a hotter to a cooler body, and, they reach thermal equilibrium after some time, no more work seems to be continuing, but, the bodies do contain energy.
Singularity! Because entangled.

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:47 pm

maunas wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:59 am

EARLY EARTH WAS SO HOT AND TURBULENT THAT IF SOLAR ENERGY COULD OVERWHELM MOST OF THE LOCALIZED ENTROPIC REACTIONS, EARTH WOULD NOT HAVE COOLED DOWN AND LIFE COULD NOT HAVE ORIGINATED.
I would consider this statement dubious. We still do not truly know what early Earth was like. Avoid speculation.

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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by landrew » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:27 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:47 pm
maunas wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:59 am

EARLY EARTH WAS SO HOT AND TURBULENT THAT IF SOLAR ENERGY COULD OVERWHELM MOST OF THE LOCALIZED ENTROPIC REACTIONS, EARTH WOULD NOT HAVE COOLED DOWN AND LIFE COULD NOT HAVE ORIGINATED.
I would consider this statement dubious. We still do not truly know what early Earth was like. Avoid speculation.
There's a lot of better speculation available, which I haven't researched in much detail. The geological time scale is vast, and we don't know very accurately how hot and turbulent the earth was, and for how long, but according to informed speculation, there was well over a billion years after the formation of the earth for life to originate. Remember that extremophiles exist today in a myriad of hostile environments, but that in no way tells us how hostile the early environments for abiogenesis may have been. I haven't ruled out panspermia either, because billions of years of bombardments provides reasonable odds that life may have found it's way here from other worlds. It's simply a question of being persuaded by the odds, which are considerable and hard to ignore.
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Re: Study: Simple Life Forms are Common throughout Universe

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:05 pm

We need to remember how little we know.
The existence of extremophiles does not mean much. They took 4 billion years to evolve into their current niche and current adaptations. Early life would not have had those abilities. Mind you, I suspect that, from the point of view of the first life, it is humans who are the extremophiles.