If we could see what others see

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Dimebag
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If we could see what others see

Post by Dimebag » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:56 am

Imagine if in the not too distant future, we were able to identify via highly improved brain imaging, whether a person was conscious, and what the contents of that persons consciousness was. With such a tool, we could non invasively scan the brains of individuals suffering from varying degrees of brain damage (pre-damaged individuals by circumstance, not through experimental means), and study and or formulate the functional constraints of consciousness, and minimum required brain structures and functional capacities of those structures. Using this process, neuroscience could in effect formulate a functional model of how our brains create consciousness.

Now obviously this process would be dependent on the amount and variance of brain damaged individuals available for study. What if instead, neuroscience found a way to effectively “shut off” or silence certain areas of brain function, only temporarily. It would be an incredibly difficult task, but it would in essence be an attempt to reverse engineer the brain in order to understand its underlying function.

In science we are ethically bound to do no harm by experimentation, and over recent years we have studied the brain by looking at what areas of the brain are active while performing a certain task. The limitations of this method are unfortunately that we can’t gain a deep understanding of the functionality of the brain circuitry involved. One of the biggest hurdles to studying consciousness is that we have no access to the internal experience of individuals, but if this changed, and if we gained an ability to noninvasively tinker with brain function, we could effectively “map the functional conditions for consciousness”.

What this might look like, I would imagine, might be something similar to a binary readout table used to analyse logic gate circuitry, but in a far more complex scale. For those versed in computer science, hopefully you know what I am talking about, for those who are not, basically it is a table of input values, and output values, the values of the outputs depend on the values of the inputs as well as the makeup of the assorted circuit of logic gates. Think programming, and, or, nand (not and).

Anyway, just some thoughts.

SteveKlinko
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Re: If we could see what others see

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:56 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:56 am
Imagine if in the not too distant future, we were able to identify via highly improved brain imaging, whether a person was conscious, and what the contents of that persons consciousness was. With such a tool, we could non invasively scan the brains of individuals suffering from varying degrees of brain damage (pre-damaged individuals by circumstance, not through experimental means), and study and or formulate the functional constraints of consciousness, and minimum required brain structures and functional capacities of those structures. Using this process, neuroscience could in effect formulate a functional model of how our brains create consciousness.

Now obviously this process would be dependent on the amount and variance of brain damaged individuals available for study. What if instead, neuroscience found a way to effectively “shut off” or silence certain areas of brain function, only temporarily. It would be an incredibly difficult task, but it would in essence be an attempt to reverse engineer the brain in order to understand its underlying function.

In science we are ethically bound to do no harm by experimentation, and over recent years we have studied the brain by looking at what areas of the brain are active while performing a certain task. The limitations of this method are unfortunately that we can’t gain a deep understanding of the functionality of the brain circuitry involved. One of the biggest hurdles to studying consciousness is that we have no access to the internal experience of individuals, but if this changed, and if we gained an ability to noninvasively tinker with brain function, we could effectively “map the functional conditions for consciousness”.

What this might look like, I would imagine, might be something similar to a binary readout table used to analyse logic gate circuitry, but in a far more complex scale. For those versed in computer science, hopefully you know what I am talking about, for those who are not, basically it is a table of input values, and output values, the values of the outputs depend on the values of the inputs as well as the makeup of the assorted circuit of logic gates. Think programming, and, or, nand (not and).

Anyway, just some thoughts.
If Science could do this then it would have solved the Hard Problem of Consciousness. For example, Science would finally Know what the Redness experience is as a Phenomenon of Nature, or maybe we should say a Phenomenon of Conscious Nature.

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landrew
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Re: If we could see what others see

Post by landrew » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:45 pm

The human retina is an imperfect image sensor, with many imperfections and gaps. The raw image would not look very good by photo standards, so the brain conducts image-processing to correct the image, using multiple "frames" and eye movements to build an image that we see as fairly perfect. Estimates vary widely, but what we see in our minds corresponds to approximately a 7 megapixel image.

To take it further than that, into the deep workings of the brain is fairly meaningless in my opinion, because it delves into the way the brain processes the images we see. It makes sense that we all see the same images, except when our brains choose to interpret things differently due to some psychological disorder. I was once witness to a traffic accident where someone pulled out in front of a moving vehicle resulting in a collision. He swore adamantly that there was "no vehicles coming" when he pulled out in front of the truck that hit him. It's possible that due to fatigue, his mind chose to eliminate the image of the approaching vehicle from his conscious awareness.

Beyond the basic image, our brains conduct what is analogous to "photo interpretation" which I'm not sure would be possible for us to view from another standpoint. To "see" what another person sees is fairly straightforward, like mounting a GoPro on their head, but seeing how they interpret the images would not be very interesting unless they were hallucinating.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Dimebag
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Re: If we could see what others see

Post by Dimebag » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:02 am

landrew wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:45 pm
The human retina is an imperfect image sensor, with many imperfections and gaps. The raw image would not look very good by photo standards, so the brain conducts image-processing to correct the image, using multiple "frames" and eye movements to build an image that we see as fairly perfect. Estimates vary widely, but what we see in our minds corresponds to approximately a 7 megapixel image.

To take it further than that, into the deep workings of the brain is fairly meaningless in my opinion, because it delves into the way the brain processes the images we see. It makes sense that we all see the same images, except when our brains choose to interpret things differently due to some psychological disorder. I was once witness to a traffic accident where someone pulled out in front of a moving vehicle resulting in a collision. He swore adamantly that there was "no vehicles coming" when he pulled out in front of the truck that hit him. It's possible that due to fatigue, his mind chose to eliminate the image of the approaching vehicle from his conscious awareness.

Beyond the basic image, our brains conduct what is analogous to "photo interpretation" which I'm not sure would be possible for us to view from another standpoint. To "see" what another person sees is fairly straightforward, like mounting a GoPro on their head, but seeing how they interpret the images would not be very interesting unless they were hallucinating.
If you use a little imagination, you might be able to reconstruct memories for use within law enforcement and judicial processes. You might truly know if someone is guilty of a particular crime, or at least if their memory places them as being guilty or not. You could use it to record your dreams and gain an insight into your unconscious mind and the forces at play. If you could find a way to take the resulting experiences and translate them into an input to a persons consciousness, you could achieve the Vulcan mind meld, gaining insights into the “lived experiences” of others, maybe as a kind of sensitivity training for particularly hate filled discriminative individuals. Just a few ideas. Obviously sci-fi but within the realm of possibility.

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Re: If we could see what others see

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:02 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:02 am
landrew wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:45 pm
The human retina is an imperfect image sensor, with many imperfections and gaps. The raw image would not look very good by photo standards, so the brain conducts image-processing to correct the image, using multiple "frames" and eye movements to build an image that we see as fairly perfect. Estimates vary widely, but what we see in our minds corresponds to approximately a 7 megapixel image.

To take it further than that, into the deep workings of the brain is fairly meaningless in my opinion, because it delves into the way the brain processes the images we see. It makes sense that we all see the same images, except when our brains choose to interpret things differently due to some psychological disorder. I was once witness to a traffic accident where someone pulled out in front of a moving vehicle resulting in a collision. He swore adamantly that there was "no vehicles coming" when he pulled out in front of the truck that hit him. It's possible that due to fatigue, his mind chose to eliminate the image of the approaching vehicle from his conscious awareness.

Beyond the basic image, our brains conduct what is analogous to "photo interpretation" which I'm not sure would be possible for us to view from another standpoint. To "see" what another person sees is fairly straightforward, like mounting a GoPro on their head, but seeing how they interpret the images would not be very interesting unless they were hallucinating.
If you use a little imagination, you might be able to reconstruct memories for use within law enforcement and judicial processes. You might truly know if someone is guilty of a particular crime, or at least if their memory places them as being guilty or not. You could use it to record your dreams and gain an insight into your unconscious mind and the forces at play. If you could find a way to take the resulting experiences and translate them into an input to a persons consciousness, you could achieve the Vulcan mind meld, gaining insights into the “lived experiences” of others, maybe as a kind of sensitivity training for particularly hate filled discriminative individuals. Just a few ideas. Obviously sci-fi but within the realm of possibility.
Very good Speculations. Speculating is all we have with regard to Consciousness.

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landrew
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Re: If we could see what others see

Post by landrew » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:12 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:02 am

If you use a little imagination, you might be able to reconstruct memories for use within law enforcement and judicial processes. You might truly know if someone is guilty of a particular crime, or at least if their memory places them as being guilty or not. You could use it to record your dreams and gain an insight into your unconscious mind and the forces at play. If you could find a way to take the resulting experiences and translate them into an input to a persons consciousness, you could achieve the Vulcan mind meld, gaining insights into the “lived experiences” of others, maybe as a kind of sensitivity training for particularly hate filled discriminative individuals. Just a few ideas. Obviously sci-fi but within the realm of possibility.
I'm a bit more doubtful, because I don't think our brains store things verbatim in specific memory addresses like a computer. I think each memory exists as a myriad of connections all over the brain. We may eventually be able to decode such things, but I doubt it will be any time soon.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Dimebag
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Re: If we could see what others see

Post by Dimebag » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:56 am

landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:12 pm
Dimebag wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:02 am

If you use a little imagination, you might be able to reconstruct memories for use within law enforcement and judicial processes. You might truly know if someone is guilty of a particular crime, or at least if their memory places them as being guilty or not. You could use it to record your dreams and gain an insight into your unconscious mind and the forces at play. If you could find a way to take the resulting experiences and translate them into an input to a persons consciousness, you could achieve the Vulcan mind meld, gaining insights into the “lived experiences” of others, maybe as a kind of sensitivity training for particularly hate filled discriminative individuals. Just a few ideas. Obviously sci-fi but within the realm of possibility.
I'm a bit more doubtful, because I don't think our brains store things verbatim in specific memory addresses like a computer. I think each memory exists as a myriad of connections all over the brain. We may eventually be able to decode such things, but I doubt it will be any time soon.
Of course. My speculations are contingent on developing 2 different technologies, one of which is barely even in usage in neuroscience (affecting brain regions remotely) and the other (brain imaging) which would require huge resolution increases, as well as continued studying of the function of the brain in general, so yes it is effectively sci fi. I do admit that the way the memory is stored is very different to a computer, much more fuzzy with only certain details being stored and prone to misremembering and downright fabrication. So yes I agree this is not going to happen anytime soon.

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landrew
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Re: If we could see what others see

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:04 pm

Still much within the realm of science fiction:
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Scott Mayers
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Re: If we could see what others see

Post by Scott Mayers » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:04 am

I eat without fear of certain Death from The Tree of Knowledge because with wisdom, we may one day break free from its mortal curse.

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mirror93
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Re: If we could see what others see

Post by mirror93 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:30 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:56 pm
Dimebag wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:56 am
Imagine if in the not too distant future, we were able to identify via highly improved brain imaging, whether a person was conscious, and what the contents of that persons consciousness was. With such a tool, we could non invasively scan the brains of individuals suffering from varying degrees of brain damage (pre-damaged individuals by circumstance, not through experimental means), and study and or formulate the functional constraints of consciousness, and minimum required brain structures and functional capacities of those structures. Using this process, neuroscience could in effect formulate a functional model of how our brains create consciousness.

Now obviously this process would be dependent on the amount and variance of brain damaged individuals available for study. What if instead, neuroscience found a way to effectively “shut off” or silence certain areas of brain function, only temporarily. It would be an incredibly difficult task, but it would in essence be an attempt to reverse engineer the brain in order to understand its underlying function.

In science we are ethically bound to do no harm by experimentation, and over recent years we have studied the brain by looking at what areas of the brain are active while performing a certain task. The limitations of this method are unfortunately that we can’t gain a deep understanding of the functionality of the brain circuitry involved. One of the biggest hurdles to studying consciousness is that we have no access to the internal experience of individuals, but if this changed, and if we gained an ability to noninvasively tinker with brain function, we could effectively “map the functional conditions for consciousness”.

What this might look like, I would imagine, might be something similar to a binary readout table used to analyse logic gate circuitry, but in a far more complex scale. For those versed in computer science, hopefully you know what I am talking about, for those who are not, basically it is a table of input values, and output values, the values of the outputs depend on the values of the inputs as well as the makeup of the assorted circuit of logic gates. Think programming, and, or, nand (not and).

Anyway, just some thoughts.
if science could do this then it would have solved the hard problem of consciousness. for example, science would finally know what the redness experience is as a phenomenon of nature, or maybe we should say a phenomenon of conscious nature.
Stop saying the same thing in topics that has nothing to do with your religious crap. Go away dude, you're absolutely repetitive and tedious
:paladin: