Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

What you think about how you think.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:19 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:45 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Please copy and paste where Klinko, or anyone other than yourself, has posted about increasing the pain threshold.

4) That means there is no guiding going on.
No copy and paste Matt. ..........because.............Klinko never said such things. Matt: you really do need to follow what is actually said and not mischaracterize it as you do.

Personally, I agree, about Five Times now, that "guiding" is the wrong term to use..........and I think Oleg has most accurately described what the evolutionary mechanism is. We are all saying the same thing, with different precision/fidelity to the dictionary in the words we use. And for the FIFTH TIME again: no where does "consciousness" of pain or anything else enter into the discussion until CRSIPR was developed.........well.........until Mendel with his peas?
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:26 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: No copy and paste Matt. ..........because.............Klinko never said such things.
You are an idiot Bobbo. I have been quoting from Klinko's original claims on his Inter mind website and have done so since this thread started. You haven't read it. Klinko is trying to change what his claim is.

http://www.theintermind.com/

Now go run away and play with Tom Palven
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:21 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:26 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: No copy and paste Matt. ..........because.............Klinko never said such things.
You are an idiot Bobbo. I have been quoting from Klinko's original claims on his Inter mind website and have done so since this thread started.
You don't have the credibility for me to believe that, the very reason I am asking you to copy and paste. If you have already done that earlier in this long thread........should be very easy for you to do so.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:26 am
You haven't read it.
Thats true. But I've read enough of you.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:26 am
Klinko is trying to change what his claim is.
That could well be the case. Time passes, ideas change, memory fades, poor word choice always possible. Thats why an actual copy and paste quote would be helpful rather than your proven dubious reportage.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:26 am
Now go run away and play with Tom Palven
TP has been direct and responsive on several of my challenges. You could learn from him.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:41 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: You don't have the credibility for me .........
Bobbo, I don't care what you think or don't think. You are the idiot who claims to have fought in the Yom Kippur War while serving in the USAF. The USA didn't fight in the Yom Kippur War.

You are just another boring 75 year old like Tom Palven, Norma Blum and Gorgeous seeking attention on a forum, with nothing to add.
:lol: :lol:

At least Norma had the decency of dying of old age rather than continue to seek attention with nothing, like you do. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:27 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:41 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: You don't have the credibility for me .........
Bobbo, I don't care what you think or don't think. You are the idiot who claims to have fought in the Yom Kippur War while serving in the USAF. The USA didn't fight in the Yom Kippur War.

You are just another boring 75 year old like Tom Palven, Norma Blum and Gorgeous seeking attention on a forum, with nothing to add.
:lol: :lol:

At least Norma had the decency of dying of old age rather than continue to seek attention with nothing, like you do. :lol: :lol:
Matt.........whats with you?...........YOU provided the link in the other thread re handbaskets to the Nickle Grass Operation where the USA provided war materiel to Israel during Yom Kippur. but then.........you OBVIOUSLY ALSO DID NOT read the 1917 Espionage Act you love to make reference to as if it was relevant...............and yet contradictorially, you claim to know the contents of sealed documents issued in the Assange case.

Just what kind of nutball are you?..........its...........all.......ego.............right?

1-2-3 such slip ups even without recognition or apology can be absorbed. your CONSTANT mishcharacterizations.........cannot be.

Proud to say I'm younger than 75 (always the youngest person in every group I ever was in....parents started me in school 18 months early)......so, I say with great affection: grow up. Become a better version, if not the best version, of yourself.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:31 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt.........whats with you?...........
Nothing Bobbo. This thread is for making fun of Steve Klinko's religious claim.

You seem to have the same problem as Norma Blum and want to make the thread about you. I have no interest in you other than to quickly show holes in your claims when you interrupt a thread.

The USA did not fight in the Yom Kippur War. You did not read the Espionage Act (1917). You have not read Steve Klinko's Inter mind "manifesto" that I have been quoting from.

Now go away and play with Tom Palven . You two have a lot in common (early senility) .
:lol: :lol:

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:33 am

Constant mischaracterization, fabrication, and refusal to answer direct questions.

I withdraw.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:35 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:12 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:24 pm
3) Therefore a Conscious Experience can affect or guide Evolutionary outcomes.

Where is the Religion in that?
Which of the items do you disagree with?
.....guide.....
It's like the Tracks Guiding the Train. No Religion needed. The Tracks know nothing and the Train knows nothing but the Tracks Guide the Train nevertheless.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:48 pm

Poodle wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:16 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:24 pm
Poodle wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:09 am
This thing has gone on for far too long. On the one hand, we have Steve who says that his self-proclaimed view of Enid Blyton evolution cannot be false whilst, on the other hand, we have everyone else and their dogs and cats pointing out the outsize errors in Steve's logic. Steve is using dogma (which he thinks is philosophy) whilst everyone else is trying to use logical arguments. It's never worked against god-botherers of any kind and, I'm afraid, Steve is merely another god-botherer although, admittedly, with a novel presentation.
For how long has Gorgeous been here? That's a very similar situation. Steve will continue to sit tight upon his fantasies and everyone else will become frustrated at his intransigence. It has all become pointless.
Because you insist to Lie and say that what I say is Religious, let me repeat what I actually have said.

It's a simple 3 step chain of logic:

1) The experience of Pain increases survival rates.
2) Increased survival rates will affect Evolutionary outcomes.
3) Therefore a Conscious Experience can affect or guide Evolutionary outcomes.

Where is the Religion in that?
Which of the items do you disagree with?
I've said before, Steve, that you are not reading replies to the point of comprehension. I may have used the term 'pseudo-religious'. That does not mean 'religious'. So where's the lie? Your entire 'theory' is conjectural and based upon a misunderstanding of evolution and human physiology. How could I lie about that?
Here's what I said:
Because you insist to Lie and say that what I say is Religious ...

You said I am a god-botherer. Where is the Religion in the above 3 statements? Do you even know the definition of god-botherer?

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:54 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:21 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:45 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Please copy and paste where Klinko, or anyone other than yourself, has posted about increasing the pain threshold.
You really aren't getting this are you.

1) A creature that feels a level of pain already has evolved the genes that feel that level of pain, which means it is neutral to the species survival in the environment.
2) Steve Klinko claims the feeling of pain "guides" evolution.
3) I gave examples where both an evolved reduced feeling of pain and an evolved increased feeling pain offer evolutionary advantages
4) That means there is no guiding going on.

Try keep up.
Pain motivates avoidance behaviour. The critters that are better at avoiding pain causing phenomena have a better chance at reproducing. Avoidance behaviour is selected for. Pain is the messenger that this is something to stay away from.

Steve's tail is wagging his dog.
So in a manner of speaking Pain is a Guiding force in the Evolution of these Critters. Good observation.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:12 pm

So, in a manner of speaking, pain is whatever you want it to be. You cannot continue making such declarations.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:21 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:33 am
Constant mischaracterization, fabrication, and refusal to answer direct questions.

I withdraw.
I understand your frustration. It is difficult to have a conversation with Ellard because of the Lies. He literally modifies what I wrote and posts replies to his Vandalized versions of what I wrote. I can't believe he spends so much time doing this kind of thing. He has denigrated some of the older people just for being old. He seems to have the maturity of someone in Grade school. I'm waiting for him to grow up, but it isn't happening. He always gets stuck in Shallow thought streams. He needs to think Deeper about things. But that's just my opinion.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:23 pm

Poodle wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:12 pm
So, in a manner of speaking, pain is whatever you want it to be. You cannot continue making such declarations.
Where did I change the meaning of what Pain is? What are you talking about?

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:43 am

SteveKlinko wrote: So in a manner of speaking Pain is a Guiding force in the Evolution of these Critters. Good observation.
No. We gave you clear evolutionary examples where a future evolved reduction of pain or an future evolved increase in pain would offer a species different evolutionary advantages in future environments. That negates your religious claim that existing evolved pain thresholds is a "guiding" force as it goes both ways.

If a bear had dark brown fur that was good camouflage for its current environment and the environment changed to a lighter wheat colour, if future mutations allowed a light brown fur to evolve, that does not mean that dark brown hair guided evolution, does it? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Go away and stop posting until you have read some basic books on the mechanisms of evolution.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:48 am

SteveKlinko wrote: It is difficult to have a conversation with Ellard because of the Lies.
Nope. It is difficult for you to understand my posts because you refuse to read any science book on evolution.

It is like me trying to explain, to you, a caveman, how a steam engine works.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:52 am

A steam engine works by constant reference to the Great Steam Engine Knowledge Repository in the Sky. Isn't that so, Steve?

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:01 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:43 am
SteveKlinko wrote: So in a manner of speaking Pain is a Guiding force in the Evolution of these Critters. Good observation.
No. We gave you clear evolutionary examples where a future evolved reduction of pain or an future evolved increase in pain would offer a species different evolutionary advantages in future environments. That negates your religious claim that existing evolved pain thresholds is a "guiding" force as it goes both ways.

If a bear had dark brown fur that was good camouflage for its current environment and the environment changed to a lighter wheat colour, if future mutations allowed a light brown fur to evolve, that does not mean that dark brown hair guided evolution, does it? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Go away and stop posting until you have read some basic books on the mechanisms of evolution.
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When you say that the reduction of Pain or the increases of Pain would offer different Evolutionary advantages in future environments, you are admitting that the very existence of the Conscious Experience of Pain can affect Evolutionary outcomes.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:05 am

Poodle wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:52 am
A steam engine works by constant reference to the Great Steam Engine Knowledge Repository in the Sky. Isn't that so, Steve?
I would say Not so to that. Next question please.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:03 am

SteveKlinko wrote: When you say that the reduction of Pain or the increases of Pain would offer different Evolutionary advantages in future environments, you are admitting that the very existence of the Conscious Experience of Pain can affect Evolutionary outcomes.
Why are you so stupid and ignorant?

New genes are random mutations. Conscious experiences do not create particular genes that do one thing or the other. (debunked Lamarckism) We have told you this over and over again and you still can't understand this basic fact and you still refuse to read any science book on evolution. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Go away and stop posting until you read one basic science book on the mechanisms of evolution.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:12 am

Recapping Steve Klinko's ridiculous arguments so far
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No1 and wrote: If Pain does not have any affect on Evolutionary Outcomes then why would Pain ever Evolve?
The skeptics laughed and wrote:"toe nails must direct and guide evolution otherwise why did we evolve toe nails" "Brown hair must direct and guide evolution otherwise why did we evolve brown hair?"
///////////////////////////////////////
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No2 and wrote: If it was Painful to grow toenails and hair we would not have any today..
The skeptics laughed again and wrote:I see.......... so women stopped having babies because of the pain? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
///////////////////////////////////////////
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No3 and wrote: There has been no coherent argument that shows how Pain has no affect on Evolutionary outcomes.
The skeptics laughed again and wrote: You have now failed 10 times to show how pain, that has already evolved, can "direct" and "guide" evolution as you claimed. When will you show us how your magic form of evolution works?
//////////////////////////////////////////////
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No4 and wrote: Consciously feeling pain and moving away from a fire obviously increases survival and therefore consciousness guides evolution.
The skeptics laughed again and wrote: A tiger's evolved camouflage stripes helps hide the tiger and increase its survival so do you claim a tiger's camoflage stripes guides evolution? :lol: :lol: :lol:

This thread is pure comedy now. :mrgreen:

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:01 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:21 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:33 am
Constant mischaracterization, fabrication, and refusal to answer direct questions.

I withdraw.
I understand your frustration. It is difficult to have a conversation with Ellard because of the Lies. He literally modifies what I wrote and posts replies to his Vandalized versions of what I wrote. I can't believe he spends so much time doing this kind of thing. He has denigrated some of the older people just for being old. He seems to have the maturity of someone in Grade school. I'm waiting for him to grow up, but it isn't happening. He always gets stuck in Shallow thought streams. He needs to think Deeper about things. But that's just my opinion.
No its not. ...........but..............Matts not always wrong. My experience intially was that he was mostly correct: he chooses woo's and deniers as his favorite targets. YMMV. Matt just never corrects himself so that when he is wrong, he just keeps his barrel rolling on. Its a habit pattern too common in people who are accustomed to being correct ........and not corrected. You see this a lot in this forum. It is also most common in people who refuse to answer direct questions. Another very damaging habit pattern to fall into.

Mind the gap.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:23 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:12 am
Recapping Steve Klinko's ridiculous arguments so far
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No1 and wrote: If Pain does not have any affect on Evolutionary Outcomes then why would Pain ever Evolve?
The skeptics laughed and wrote:"toe nails must direct and guide evolution otherwise why did we evolve toe nails" "Brown hair must direct and guide evolution otherwise why did we evolve brown hair?"
///////////////////////////////////////
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No2 and wrote: If it was Painful to grow toenails and hair we would not have any today..
The skeptics laughed again and wrote:I see.......... so women stopped having babies because of the pain? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
///////////////////////////////////////////
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No3 and wrote: There has been no coherent argument that shows how Pain has no affect on Evolutionary outcomes.
The skeptics laughed again and wrote: You have now failed 10 times to show how pain, that has already evolved, can "direct" and "guide" evolution as you claimed. When will you show us how your magic form of evolution works?
//////////////////////////////////////////////
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No4 and wrote: Consciously feeling pain and moving away from a fire obviously increases survival and therefore consciousness guides evolution.
The skeptics laughed again and wrote: A tiger's evolved camouflage stripes helps hide the tiger and increase its survival so do you claim a tiger's camoflage stripes guides evolution? :lol: :lol: :lol:

This thread is pure comedy now. :mrgreen:
Because you insist on Lying by changing the things I have said, let me repeat what I actually have said.

It's a simple 3 step chain of logic:

1) The experience of Pain can increase survival rates.
2) Increased survival rates can affect Evolutionary outcomes.
3) Therefore a Conscious Experience can affect or guide Evolutionary outcomes.

Which of the items do you disagree with?

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:45 am

Steve Klinko repeats his idiotic logic
SteveKlinko wrote: 1) The experience of Pain can increase survival rates.
2) Increased survival rates can affect Evolutionary outcomes.
3) Therefore a Conscious Experience can affect or guide Evolutionary outcomes.
The same claim can be said about any evolved quality. :lol:
1) A Tiger's evolved striped camouflage increases its survival rate
2) Increased survival rates can effect evolutionary outcomes
3) Therefore a tiger's evolved striped camouflage can affect or guide Evolutionary outcomes

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Now let us review Steve Klinko's ongoing idiocy.

A) The tigers current tiger stripes and current pain thresholds have already evolved. They already exist. They do not cause any future evolutionary changes in one direction or another.

B) Random mutations will enter the gene pool. These random new genes are not guided in anyway by the tiger's current stripes or pain thresholds. That is your false religious claim.

C) You are unable to write down any evolutionary mechanism for your "guidance" claim as it is religious BS.


Do not post again until you read a basic science book on evolution
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Dimebag » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:08 pm

I think guidance is the wrong word to use here Steve, because guidance implies teleology or agency. They may not guide the species, but the trait provides a survival advantage, which allows the gene which causes that trait to be passed on through offspring. This is the selection part of natural selection.

Could we then improve Steve’s original statement to bring it more in line with natural selection?

The conscious experience of pain is a trait which provides a survival advantage, so random genetic mutation which would interfere with an organisms conscious experience of pain (such as congenital insensitivity to pain) would be selected against.

Is that a fair statement?

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:25 pm

Thanks Dimebag. A nice clarification of the "language" problem.........but I suspect Klinko "wants" the very distinction you make. As Matt informatively pointed out there is no "guidance" at all in evolution. If history guides us: we won't get a clear response.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:38 pm

I still think my use of Guide is appropriate. It doesn't matter how or why the Tracks got there, the fact is that the Tracks Guide the Train. Similarly it doesn't matter how, why, or when Pain was introduced, the fact is that this Pain can Guide Evolution to a different configuration than the configuration that would exist if there was no Pain. The set of possible Evolutionary configurations with Pain will be mostly disjoint from the set of possible Evolutionary configurations without Pain. So you could say that the Pain Guides Evolution away from the set of Evolutionary configurations without Pain and to the set of Evolutionary configurations with Pain.

But the further realization is that Pain, a Conscious Experience, can have an affect on Evolutionary outcomes. There was probably a multitude of Conscious Experiences that had their individual affect on Evolution. Think about the agony of Hunger that drives Animals to eat. Without the literal Conscious agony there would be little motivation for an Animal to eat. Think about the Pleasure experience. Without the literal Conscious sensation of the Sexual Pleasure experience there would be little motivation for an Animal to procreate. Evolution would go nowhere without Conscious Experience. Probably the only thing that would ever Evolve is Plant life which we can only assume has no Conscious Experience. Or does it? We will not know until we understand our own Consciousness first.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:43 pm

Congrats Steve. Refusing to use what you were born withl

Its actually quite simple: silly hoomans do think in metaphors. But....reality is what it is: NOT a metaphor.

So...........I challenge you to apply this reality/context/understanding/point of view to your first two sentences. Think about it for yourself, and here is what you should have thought instead:
► Show Spoiler
it is as Matt posted...the environment filtering the best adapted from RANDOM genetic variation. Note the key concept RANDOM. Now, if you still want to use metaphors for what you actually think: how does RANDOM line up as a guiding set of tracks?
Last edited by bobbo_the_Pragmatist on Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:13 am

Dimebag wrote:Could we then improve Steve’s original statement to bring it more in line with natural selection?
Why bother? Steve Klinko should read a peer reviewed science book on evolution, rather than us try to correct all his errors.
Dimebag wrote:The conscious experience of pain is a trait which provides a survival advantage, so random genetic mutation which would interfere with an organisms conscious experience of pain (such as congenital insensitivity to pain) would be selected against.

Is that a fair statement?
No. You have simply shown that you also do not understand the theory of evolution.

A honey bear evolved a reduced threshold of pain to eat more honey.
:lol:

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:37 am

SteveKlinko wrote:I still think my use of Guide is appropriate. It doesn't matter how or why the Tracks got there, the fact is that the Tracks Guide the Train.
There are no "guiding tracks", you complete idiot. Random mutations are random. :lol: :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote:Without the literal Conscious sensation of the Sexual Pleasure experience there would be little motivation for an Animal to procreate.
You idiot!!! Life has been procreating for 3.77 billion years with no conscious experience at all. :lol: :lol:

Stop posting until you read a basic science book about evolution.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:26 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:05 am
Poodle wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:52 am
A steam engine works by constant reference to the Great Steam Engine Knowledge Repository in the Sky. Isn't that so, Steve?
I would say Not so to that. Next question please.
Sorry for the delay in my reply.
On what grounds would you say 'no' to my proposition?

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by landrew » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:22 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:I still think my use of Guide is appropriate. It doesn't matter how or why the Tracks got there, the fact is that the Tracks Guide the Train.
There are no tracks. There is no train. Evolution is not guided in any way.
You have been reading too much bad science fiction.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:10 am

landrew wrote: There are no tracks. There is no train. Evolution is not guided in any way.
You have been reading too much bad science fiction.
I think Steve Klinko is attempting to make money by copying the "Dianetics / Scientology" business model. He is promoting his religion, but disguising it as "science theory" and selling related merchandise.



His "Inter mind" manifesto is peppered with religious statements which he is careful not to mention here.

http://www.theintermind.com/
Steve Klinko wrote: The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience.
Life in Earth is 3.7 billion years old and the first conscious chordates only evolved 350 million year ago.
Steve Klinko wrote: Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react.
(He didn't know about innate reactions until he posted on our forum)
Steve Klinko wrote:It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience.
(Complete nonsense that doesn't even make sense)
Steve Klinko wrote: Consciousness might have existed prior to the Big Bang and might have even been the cause of the Big Bang.
(So consciousness that evolved on Earth magically travelled back in time to before the Big Bang)
Steve Klinko wrote: Any interpretation of the Jesus Light of the World statement will tell you that the Light simply means the Truth.
( Steve Klinko thinks Jesus is real and supports his claim 2,000 later )

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:56 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:43 pm
Congrats Steve. Refusing to use what you were born withl

Its actually quite simple: silly hoomans do think in metaphors. But....reality is what it is: NOT a metaphor.

So...........I challenge you to apply this reality/context/understanding/point of view to your first two sentences. Think about it for yourself, and here is what you should have thought instead:
► Show Spoiler
it is as Matt posted...the environment filtering the best adapted from RANDOM genetic variation. Note the key concept RANDOM. Now, if you still want to use metaphors for what you actually think: how does RANDOM line up as a guiding set of tracks?
Metaphors work good when-people understand that they must be constrained to the context that they were meant to operate in. A Metaphor seeks to state a simple truth. If you analyze a Metaphor to death you will lose sight of the immediate lesson of it.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:07 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:10 am
landrew wrote: There are no tracks. There is no train. Evolution is not guided in any way.
You have been reading too much bad science fiction.
I think Steve Klinko is attempting to make money by copying the "Dianetics / Scientology" business model. He is promoting his religion, but disguising it as "science theory" and selling related merchandise.



His "Inter mind" manifesto is peppered with religious statements which he is careful not to mention here.

http://www.theintermind.com/
Steve Klinko wrote: The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience.
Life in Earth is 3.7 billion years old and the first conscious chordates only evolved 350 million year ago.
Steve Klinko wrote: Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react.
(He didn't know about innate reactions until he posted on our forum)
Steve Klinko wrote:It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience.
(Complete nonsense that doesn't even make sense)
Steve Klinko wrote: Consciousness might have existed prior to the Big Bang and might have even been the cause of the Big Bang.
(So consciousness that evolved on Earth magically travelled back in time to before the Big Bang)
Steve Klinko wrote: Any interpretation of the Jesus Light of the World statement will tell you that the Light simply means the Truth.
( Steve Klinko thinks Jesus is real and supports his claim 2,000 later )
You have outdone yourself in Vandalizing my words, my meanings, and my intentions. You have ripped the Context of things to shreds. But thank you for the Shirt promotion.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:26 am

SteveKlinko wrote: You have outdone yourself in Vandalizing my words, my meanings, and my intentions. You have ripped the Context of things to shreds.
I have simply quoted your own words concerning your religious nonsense. Whilst in contrast, you can't quote one scientist or scientific theory to support your hilarious claims.

You should go away, re-locate and post on a non-science forum that enjoys your nonsense claims.

The God Like Productions Forum
https://www.godlikeproductions.com/

Above Top Secret Forum
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/

David Icke Alternative Science Forum
https://forum.davidicke.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:43 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:07 am
You have outdone yourself in Vandalizing my words, my meanings, and my intentions. You have ripped the Context of things to shreds. But thank you for the Shirt promotion.
Well Steve....as you have noticed I have made this same charge against Matt so I am sympathetic to this claim. But I look at the post you quoted and I don't see any vandalizing of your words and the context is substantially there by Matt quoting whole sentences instead of truncating them as he so often does.

So, I request you take ANY 1-2-3 of the quoted issues in the post you have quoted and show how Matt is wrong, or you are correct, or what your best thinking on the issue is. I'll start you off with one that should be easy. "Easy" I say because without knowing what your position is at all, "an" answer is immediately apparent.......whether it is yours or not would be interesting to see. xxxx No, I changed my mind and just went with the first quote. I see none of your complaints in evidence: so go ahead and respond directly?

1.
Steve Klinko wrote:
The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience.

Life in Earth is 3.7 billion years old and the first conscious chordates only evolved 350 million year ago.
Go=======================>
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:40 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:43 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:07 am
You have outdone yourself in Vandalizing my words, my meanings, and my intentions. You have ripped the Context of things to shreds. But thank you for the Shirt promotion.
Well Steve....as you have noticed I have made this same charge against Matt so I am sympathetic to this claim. But I look at the post you quoted and I don't see any vandalizing of your words and the context is substantially there by Matt quoting whole sentences instead of truncating them as he so often does.

So, I request you take ANY 1-2-3 of the quoted issues in the post you have quoted and show how Matt is wrong, or you are correct, or what your best thinking on the issue is. I'll start you off with one that should be easy. "Easy" I say because without knowing what your position is at all, "an" answer is immediately apparent.......whether it is yours or not would be interesting to see. xxxx No, I changed my mind and just went with the first quote. I see none of your complaints in evidence: so go ahead and respond directly?

1.
Steve Klinko wrote:
The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience.

Life in Earth is 3.7 billion years old and the first conscious chordates only evolved 350 million year ago.
Go=======================>
I have replied time and time again about this. Do I have to go through the whole explanation of Pain and Evolution again? Just posting this one line is taking the whole argument out of the context of the argument that was presented. I have answered this before: It is Irrelevant when Consciousness started. The point is that, when there is Consciousness, it can affect Evolutionary outcomes. Then he goes into saying I make Religious claims and said that I believe in Jesus. This is just his usual Infantile Obfuscation and Diversion routine.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:18 pm

Steve: you fail. Each "line" you post IS subject to criticisms like Matt's that are entirely valid. You make a correct statement in one line in your explanation...........so the wrong statement Matt quotes is NOT obfuscation and diversion. Its YOU being wrong.

Rereading.....I see you employ the "taking both sides of the argument" approach.

"It is irrelevant when Consciousness started." ///// No, its not.

"The point is that, when there is Consciousness, it can affect Evolutionary outcomes." ////// I agree.

In a sense.......what you are complaining about is being accurately criticized when you are so sloppy as to be WRONG. and that is giving you benefit of the doubt. If we "score" your presentation on this point alone, you state it incorrectly twice and correctly once.

What do you actually think................and why don't you post consistently with that thought?
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:08 am

SteveKlinko" wrote: The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience.
Matthew Ellard" wrote:Life in Earth is 3.7 billion years old and the first conscious chordates only evolved 350 million year ago.
SteveKlinko" wrote: I have replied time and time again about this.
Nope. You didn't. Before you joined this forum you didn't know that animals with central nervous systems only arose 350 million years ago. When we pointed this out to you, you pretended there was a species with a consciousness 3.7 billion years ago, but you couldn't provide any evidence for this creature or explain how such a species existed when life was still single celled. Everyone laughed at you. :lol: :lol:

Stop posting on this forum until you read a basic science book on evolution on Earth.
Evolution for dummies.jpg
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by landrew » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:00 pm

Steve,
you won't win this one by wearing everyone down.
It's not like throwing rocks at a wall until it eventually crumbles. Your arguments don't make logical sense, nor are they based on known facts.
At any rate, you are constantly wasting your time here.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.