Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

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SteveKlinko
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Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:19 pm

The Physicalists on The Inter Mind thread complain about three basic statements that I have made. They seem to show an emotionalism in their replies that reveals a hidden frustration with their inability to address the statements in any coherent way. They are getting more and more Delirious. They are self appointed Guardians of the knowledge base of Science but that knowledge base is empty with regard to questions about Consciousness. They will not admit that there is Zero Scientific understanding of Consciousness so they resort to Insults and other Diversionary tactics that only reveal their ignorance. If Science cannot deal with Something then that Something can only be Supernatural or Religious in their way of thinking. They therefore need to make that Something go away rather than trying to study it more and come up with a Scientific Explanation. This necessarily implies that they think that Science has obtained all the knowledge that it will ever obtain. But this is not the Science that I know. I have been taught and expect that Science is discovering New Phenomena all the time. Here are the three statements that annoy the Physicalists to the point of mental breakdown:

1) Science has Zero, I repeat Zero, understanding with regard to Consciousness.
2) Conscious experiences are in a whole different Category of Phenomena than any known Scientific Category of Phenomena.
3) The Conscious experience of Pain can give an Organism or Animal a statistical Evolutionary survival advantage that can affect the Evolution of that Organism or Animal.

As for the first statement, the Physicalists say things like: The Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity and then they say that Explains it, end of discussion. This is Naïve and Shallow beyond all reasonableness. It isn't even a good Scientific guess. It is Pure Belief. It's so bad I have to think the Physicalists are not really serious when they say things like this but are just messing with me. They think that Measuring Neural Activity IS the same thing as Measuring the Conscious Activity. They are Measuring the Neural Correlates of Conscious experience not the Conscious experience itself. They treat the actual Conscious experience as if it did not even exist. I can not understand how they get to this point in their Physicalist delirium. To perpetuate the Physicalist Belief they must Deny the actual existence of the Conscious experience. The Conscious experience of something like the Redness of Red is a Self Evident reality of the Universe, and they deny it. The Conscious experience of Redness is something that Science cannot Explain. The Self evident reality of it is that it exists only in the Mind. They know the Redness exists in the Mind because they See it too but still they must deny this Self Evident Phenomenon of Consciousness because if it did exist Science would have to Explain it. But Science cannot Explain it at this point in time.

The second statement points out how the Physicalists might come to understand that Science doesn't have any Knowledge of what Conscious experience could be. If Conscious experience could be found to be in any known Category of Scientific Phenomena then Science would have had a lot to say about Consciousness by now. Instead we get Silence. Conscious experience is in a Category all by itself and this new Category of Phenomena has not been integrated into the Scientific knowledge base yet. Science does not know what to do with this Category of Phenomena. Since Science does not know what to do with this Category of Conscious Phenomena the Physicalists say it is Supernatural or Religious. It's neither of these, it's simply not understood yet. Don't be afraid you little Physicalists those scary Conscious experiences will not hurt you.

I think the third statement is completely sensible from even the most basic understanding of Evolutionary mechanisms. The Physicalists completely oppose this statement however. I don't know how they can justify thinking that the Conscious experience of Pain will not actually increase the statistical Evolutionary survival advantage for an Organism or Animal and thus influence Evolutionary outcomes for an Organism or Animal. And it is not just Pain but all the multitudes of other Conscious experiences that exist in the Universe. I suppose the opposition to this is because it admits the existence of Conscious experience which they Deny. So because they have to Deny Conscious experience they must Deny a basic premise of Evolution. They say that Evolutionary literature does not mention Conscious experience so therefore the Conscious experience of Pain cannot influence Evolutionary outcomes. This takes Shallow thinking and fear of what's outside the Box to extremes. I'll go so far as to say that if Evolutionary literature does not take into account Conscious experience then Evolutionary literature needs a Big Update.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by gorgeous » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:32 pm

true.....one could say that almost any new science discovery was supernatural until it was understood....they still insist the mind is in the brain though there is no brain diagram with a section labeled 'mind'...and there are scientists that admit they don't know where the mind is....(it is non-physical)....Robert Monroe has applied science methods to learning about consciousness when one is out of body...they use sounds and can tell when the person is correctly concentrating when they are preparing for the obe by monitoring their vitals and brain patterns....they have a 'map' of the basic non-physical dimensions and know what sounds put you in each dimension.....it has been verified by thousands of people...
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Gord » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:53 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:19 pm
1) Science has Zero, I repeat Zero, understanding with regard to Consciousness.

...

As for the first statement, the Physicalists say things like: The Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity and then they say that Explains it, end of discussion. This is Naïve and Shallow beyond all reasonableness.
Alright then, I'm curious now. How do you propose to demonstrate that neural activity and conscious activity are not essentially the same thing?
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Poodle » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:59 pm

Yeah! I'm watching this too, Steve. Please proceed ...

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Io » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:26 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:19 pm
The Physicalists on The Inter Mind thread complain about three basic statements that I have made. They seem to show an emotionalism in their replies that reveals a hidden frustration with their inability to address the statements in any coherent way. They are getting more and more Delirious. They are self appointed Guardians of the knowledge base of Science but that knowledge base is empty with regard to questions about Consciousness. They will not admit that there is Zero Scientific understanding of Consciousness so they resort to Insults and other Diversionary tactics that only reveal their ignorance. If Science cannot deal with Something then that Something can only be Supernatural or Religious in their way of thinking. They therefore need to make that Something go away rather than trying to study it more and come up with a Scientific Explanation. This necessarily implies that they think that Science has obtained all the knowledge that it will ever obtain. But this is not the Science that I know. I have been taught and expect that Science is discovering New Phenomena all the time. Here are the three statements that annoy the Physicalists to the point of mental breakdown:

1) Science has Zero, I repeat Zero, understanding with regard to Consciousness.
2) Conscious experiences are in a whole different Category of Phenomena than any known Scientific Category of Phenomena.
3) The Conscious experience of Pain can give an Organism or Animal a statistical Evolutionary survival advantage that can affect the Evolution of that Organism or Animal.
1: I'm not convinced it makes any difference how much you repeat it but "Science", or, more appropriately, science, can have a good stab at understanding the mechanisms of consciousness. Perhaps not the subjective interpretations of conscious experience, but that's still more than zero. Sorry, "Zero".

2: Not

3: Bleh

Look, I know those last two arguments aren't very well presented, but, frankly I got fed up thinking about it. I didn't read any further in your post for the same reason I haven't read most of the Inter Mind thread: it's boring as {!#%@}. I don't even know why I'm replying. I need to go to bed.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Io » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:27 am

Also, what's With you making Random words In everything You type start With a Capital letter?

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Gord » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:26 am

Io wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:26 am
1: I'm not convinced it makes any difference how much you repeat it but "Science", or, more appropriately, science, can have a good stab at understanding the mechanisms of consciousness. Perhaps not the subjective interpretations of conscious experience, but that's still more than zero. Sorry, "Zero".
I know, right?

I mean, you can just google "the science of consciousness" and you'll get a few dozens hits (141 million, but I can't vouch for ALL of them!).
Io wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:27 am
Also, what's With you making Random words In everything You type start With a Capital letter?
It looks like a German influence to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalization#Nouns (Or another Germanic language.)
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:07 am

Dodgeball.jpg
SteveKlinko wrote:The Physicalists on The Inter Mind thread complain about three basic statements that I have made.
Here are the three conflicting claims you simultaneously make
SteveKlinko wrote:Consciousness evolved
Animals first evolved consciousness about 500 million years ago. Plants, microbes, fungi and bacteria, which are not conscious started evolving 3.8 billion years ago.
SteveKlinko wrote:Consciousness might have existed prior to the Big Bang and might have even been the cause of the Big Bang."
Soooo....the consciousness that only started to evolve 500 million years ago, has magically being transported back in time to the Big Bang 13 billion years ago. How do you explain that magic? :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote:The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience.
Soooo....the consciousness that only started to evolve 500 million years ago, has magically being transported back in time to the start of Life on Earth 3.8 billion years ago to make itself evolve. How do you explain that circular magic? :lol: :lol:
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:18 am

SteveKlinko wrote: The Conscious experience of Pain can give an Organism or Animal a statistical Evolutionary survival advantage that can affect the Evolution of that Organism or Animal.

Step 1) Plants, bacteria, fungi do not feel pain and were evolving on Earth 3.3 billion years before the first animal with a central nervous system evolved.

Step 2) "Feeling pain" means the animal has already evolved the pain feeling genes. You not only have this back-to-front
but this claim was thoroughly debunked 200 years ago when Lamarkian evolution was debunked.

Go away and read a basic book on evolution.
Evolution for dummies.jpg
Lamarkian VS Darwinian evolution.
Lamarck is best known for his Theory of Inheritance of Acquired Characteristics, first presented in 1801 (Darwin's first book dealing with natural selection was published in 1859): If an organism changes during life in order to adapt to its environment, those changes are passed on to its offspring. He said that change is made by what the organisms want or need. For example, Lamarck believed that elephants all used to have short trunks. When there was no food or water that they could reach with their short trunks, they stretched their trunks to reach the water and branches, and their offspring inherited long trunks. Lamarck also said that body parts that are not being used, such as the human appendix and little toes are gradually disappearing. Eventually, people will be born without these parts. Lamarck also believed that evolution happens according to a predetermined plan and that the results have already been decided.

Darwin believed that the desires of animals have nothing to do with how they evolve, and that changes in an organism during its life do not affect the evolution of the species. He said that organisms, even of the same species, are all different and that those which happen to have variations that help them to survive in their environments survive and have more offspring. The offspring are born with their parents' helpful traits, and as they reproduce, individuals with that trait make up more of the population. Other indeviduals, that are not so well adapted, die off. Most elephants used to have short trunks, but some had longer trunks. When there was no food or water that they could reach with their short trunks, the ones with short trunks died off, and the ones with long trunks survived and reproduced. Eventually, all of the elephants had long trunks. Darwin also believed that evolution does not happen according to any sort of plan.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Gord » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:42 am

Io wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:26 am
I don't even know why I'm replying. I need to go to bed.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:22 am

SteveKlinko tells a direct lie and wrote: I read the Origin of Species cover to cover over 40 years ago, and over the years have read other more modern approaches to Evolution
SteveKlinko wrote: The Conscious experience of Pain can give an Organism or Animal a statistical Evolutionary survival advantage that can affect the Evolution of that Organism or Animal.
Why do you pretend you read anything about evolution? Where in Darwin's book or any modern science paper does anyone claim pain or any conscious thought can somehow change a species genes to make it evolve one way or the other? The species genes are already "locked in". :lol: :lol:

Let us all laugh at your lies some more
Hey Steve Klinko? Tell us the biological mechanism from your medieval Lamarkian "re-boot" that allows a species' consciousness to change its genes?


This is simply to sell T-Shirts
Your fairy tale is simply an attempt by you to sell T-shirts as well as home stereo software. .
:lol: :lol:
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by TJrandom » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:32 am

T-ShirT in All CapS toO... :roll:

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Poodle » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:57 am

This was a mistake, Steve. Return to your starting point. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Dimebag » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:58 am

Steve does have a point. Science created physicalism hundreds of years ago as a way of studying objective third person phenomena, however it seemingly forgot that subjective phenomena can and are studied by science. Here’s an experiment. Find a needle and allow the pointy end to come to rest in a soft part of your skin, and observe, subjectively, the pain which results from the objective third person account of the action. Anyone can replicate this study. The only problem science has is it can’t use a third person description of the subjective phenomena. It can use a persons report to verify what qualitative state is occurring, and therefore establish a correlate of that subjective state within the brain. What we do know is that there is a covariation between neuronal firing patterns and subjective qualitative states. We know that without these subjective states, an organism which typically has them, will not function effectively in the world, and therefore that those subjective states provide an advantage to the organism, by way of function. They serve a purpose. They help guide action, help plan action, they help veto planned and current action. If I am driving through an intersection and I fail to see the red light, I will most likely be injured or killed. These are subjective qualitative states that make a difference.

Edit: where Steve has gone wrong is in assuming that those subjective qualitative states are things in themselves. Effectively they are, pragmatically, but you can’t isolate the subjective state from the neuronal firing patterns which they belong to. Just as the wave is made of water, and is not a thing in itself, but an action within the substance.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Poodle » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:32 am

Yes.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Gord » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:43 pm

I agree with Poodle.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:40 am

Dimebag wrote:Steve does have a point.
Nope. If Steve Klinko had a point he would have set down a hypothesis. under the scientific method .

He didn't. He put up a web page to sell T-shirts.
:lol: :lol:
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by gorgeous » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:59 pm

"you can’t isolate the subjective state from the neuronal firing patterns which they belong to. "-----can and do ...Robert Monroe has proven it.....everyone leaves their body when they sleep...you can learn to ''wake ' ' yourself and be aware of it....people do it all the time.....you left out the non-physical part...
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:02 pm

Io wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:27 am
Also, what's With you making Random words In everything You type start With a Capital letter?
That may be unintentional. Happens to me sometimes when I write a post, that the forum software conveniently capitalizes every noun i type. Maybe a browser issue. I am dutiful enough to change back all those capital letters, but others probably dont bother.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by landrew » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:25 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:40 am
Dimebag wrote:Steve does have a point.
Nope. If Steve Klinko had a point he would have set down a hypothesis. under the scientific method .

He didn't. He put up a web page to sell T-shirts.
:lol: :lol:
Klinko's T-shirts.JPG
It looks to me that the T-shirt sales are intended to support the work of testing the hypothesis with the scientific method.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Poodle » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:25 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:25 pm
... the work of testing the hypothesis with the scientific method.
That'll be interesting. Anyone know where we can lay our hands on some samples of Intermind for testing?

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by landrew » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:34 pm

Poodle wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:25 pm
landrew wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:25 pm
... the work of testing the hypothesis with the scientific method.
That'll be interesting. Anyone know where we can lay our hands on some samples of Intermind for testing?
I didn't say it would meet with approval.
But I'm all for someone trying.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by TJrandom » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:01 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:02 pm
... the forum software conveniently capitalizes every noun i type.
I have never seen that happen. Is it on a smartphone or a PC? :?:

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:08 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:01 pm
OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:02 pm
... the forum software conveniently capitalizes every noun i type.
I have never seen that happen. Is it on a smartphone or a PC? :?:
I think it particularly happens on my office computer at times. Maybe a thing with browser/connection that makes it so? I just know that I occasionally get those capitalised words I didnt ask for. Annoying when it happens anyway.

PS: Just saying that it CAN happen. He may be capitalising on purpose of course.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:16 am

landrew wrote: It looks to me that the T-shirt sales are intended to support the work of testing the hypothesis with the scientific method.
Steve Klinko specifically said that he didn't actually have a hypothesis at all and he was only "speculating". This is because he never made a fixed claim that could be "falsified" which is a requirement of a hypothesis.

He states the t-shirt sales are to pay for an experiment on machine consciousness which he hasn't actually brought up. If you read the web page you can see it is rubbish.


http://www.theintermind.com/MachConExpe ... riment.asp

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Dimebag » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:28 am

gorgeous wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:59 pm
"you can’t isolate the subjective state from the neuronal firing patterns which they belong to. "-----can and do ...Robert Monroe has proven it.....everyone leaves their body when they sleep...you can learn to ''wake ' ' yourself and be aware of it....people do it all the time.....you left out the non-physical part...
I don’t usually block people, but I’m seriously considering it based on this comment

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Io » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:44 am

Oh wow, someone who hasn't blocked gorgeous!

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by gorgeous » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:31 pm

can't handle the truth...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by landrew » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:18 pm

C'mon now. Diversity makes this a better forum.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Cadmusteeth » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:52 pm

And false balance muddies the waters.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by landrew » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:07 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:52 pm
And false balance muddies the waters.
Our waters aren't meant to be clear. That would be boring.
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:18 am

It seems probable to me that Steve Klinko has abandoned these threads.

The forum member Mirror had noticed that Steve Klinko is issuing an automated tweet every hour to promote his t-shirt and inter mind religion webpage. These tweets recently stopped directing people to Steve Klinko's claims on our forum.
https://twitter.com/steveklinko?lang=en

I am guessing he finally picked up that his claimed method of evolution was Lamarkian evolution which was debunked 100 years ago. An animals's consciousness does not cause new genes to arise,

Steve Klinko was making the same claim as Zeuzzz did in his "Stoned Ape" claim. Zuezzz claimed that early humans took magic mushrooms and had such wild thoughts that new genes arose due to epigentics. In reality epigentics simply swaps between two already existing genes that had already evolved.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:54 am

gorgeous wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:59 pm
Robert Monroe has proven it.....
Robert Monroe is a small time con artist, who charges $2750 for people to sleep in his home made isolation chambers for two X four hour blocks. He simply renamed his home made isolation chambers as CHEC Units. :lol: :lol:


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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Gord » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:39 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:18 am
epigentics
If that's a spelling mistake of epigenetics then it is freakin' widespread. A google search with the verbatim option turned on gives me 8 pages of links. Many of them are from academia. Others are, well, like this one:

https://llivyour.life/blog/what-is-epigentics

Or this one:



They all seem to be talking about epigenetics, though, so I have to assume it's an extremely common spelling mistake.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by TJrandom » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:03 am

Well, you do have your work cut out for you now... get at it and correct all of those who mistakenly use epigentics... shame them into compliance, or threaten them with gene mutations... BTW, my spell checker agrees with you.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:52 pm

Gord wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:53 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:19 pm
1) Science has Zero, I repeat Zero, understanding with regard to Consciousness.

...

As for the first statement, the Physicalists say things like: The Neural Activity IS the Conscious Activity and then they say that Explains it, end of discussion. This is Naïve and Shallow beyond all reasonableness.
Alright then, I'm curious now. How do you propose to demonstrate that neural activity and conscious activity are not essentially the same thing?
You are asking me to prove a Negative. If you think that Neural Activity and Conscious Activity are the same thing then you must prove that. That would not be proving a Negative. The Website at http://TheInterMind.com is dedicated to showing how Conscious experience is a whole different thing than anything Science can talk about. The Arguments are all there. Sorry if they did not convince you.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:01 pm

Io wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:26 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:19 pm
The Physicalists on The Inter Mind thread complain about three basic statements that I have made. They seem to show an emotionalism in their replies that reveals a hidden frustration with their inability to address the statements in any coherent way. They are getting more and more Delirious. They are self appointed Guardians of the knowledge base of Science but that knowledge base is empty with regard to questions about Consciousness. They will not admit that there is Zero Scientific understanding of Consciousness so they resort to Insults and other Diversionary tactics that only reveal their ignorance. If Science cannot deal with Something then that Something can only be Supernatural or Religious in their way of thinking. They therefore need to make that Something go away rather than trying to study it more and come up with a Scientific Explanation. This necessarily implies that they think that Science has obtained all the knowledge that it will ever obtain. But this is not the Science that I know. I have been taught and expect that Science is discovering New Phenomena all the time. Here are the three statements that annoy the Physicalists to the point of mental breakdown:

1) Science has Zero, I repeat Zero, understanding with regard to Consciousness.
2) Conscious experiences are in a whole different Category of Phenomena than any known Scientific Category of Phenomena.
3) The Conscious experience of Pain can give an Organism or Animal a statistical Evolutionary survival advantage that can affect the Evolution of that Organism or Animal.
1: I'm not convinced it makes any difference how much you repeat it but "Science", or, more appropriately, science, can have a good stab at understanding the mechanisms of consciousness. Perhaps not the subjective interpretations of conscious experience, but that's still more than zero. Sorry, "Zero".

2: Not

3: Bleh

Look, I know those last two arguments aren't very well presented, but, frankly I got fed up thinking about it. I didn't read any further in your post for the same reason I haven't read most of the Inter Mind thread: it's boring as {!#%@}. I don't even know why I'm replying. I need to go to bed.
Science has made great progress Mapping the Brain and Measuring the Neural Correlates of Consciousness. It is your "Not" reply to item 2 that prevents you from understanding that Science has Zero understanding of the Phenomenon of Consciousness. You must think more Deeply and then understand that Conscious experience is a thing in itself. Something like the Redness of Red is a Phenomenon that only exists in the Mind. It is a Conscious Phenomenon. It is not a Phenomenon that Science can explain.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:11 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:58 am
Steve does have a point. Science created physicalism hundreds of years ago as a way of studying objective third person phenomena, however it seemingly forgot that subjective phenomena can and are studied by science. Here’s an experiment. Find a needle and allow the pointy end to come to rest in a soft part of your skin, and observe, subjectively, the pain which results from the objective third person account of the action. Anyone can replicate this study. The only problem science has is it can’t use a third person description of the subjective phenomena. It can use a persons report to verify what qualitative state is occurring, and therefore establish a correlate of that subjective state within the brain. What we do know is that there is a covariation between neuronal firing patterns and subjective qualitative states. We know that without these subjective states, an organism which typically has them, will not function effectively in the world, and therefore that those subjective states provide an advantage to the organism, by way of function. They serve a purpose. They help guide action, help plan action, they help veto planned and current action. If I am driving through an intersection and I fail to see the red light, I will most likely be injured or killed. These are subjective qualitative states that make a difference.

Edit: where Steve has gone wrong is in assuming that those subjective qualitative states are things in themselves. Effectively they are, pragmatically, but you can’t isolate the subjective state from the neuronal firing patterns which they belong to. Just as the wave is made of water, and is not a thing in itself, but an action within the substance.
Very good. But I don't say that Conscious experience cannot be part of the Mechanism of Neural Activity. I only say that it has not been shown exactly what property of Neurons produce the Conscious experience. It is completely unknown by Science. I try to get people to think about the Conscious experience itself by saying it is a whole separate and new Phenomenon. On the one hand you have Neurons firing and on the other hand you have a Conscious experience. Something very Big is missing that needs to go in between these two things.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:54 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:18 am
SteveKlinko wrote: The Conscious experience of Pain can give an Organism or Animal a statistical Evolutionary survival advantage that can affect the Evolution of that Organism or Animal.

Step 1) Plants, bacteria, fungi do not feel pain and were evolving on Earth 3.3 billion years before the first animal with a central nervous system evolved.

Step 2) "Feeling pain" means the animal has already evolved the pain feeling genes. You not only have this back-to-front
but this claim was thoroughly debunked 200 years ago when Lamarkian evolution was debunked.

Go away and read a basic book on evolution.
Evolution for dummies.jpg

Lamarkian VS Darwinian evolution.
Lamarck is best known for his Theory of Inheritance of Acquired Characteristics, first presented in 1801 (Darwin's first book dealing with natural selection was published in 1859): If an organism changes during life in order to adapt to its environment, those changes are passed on to its offspring. He said that change is made by what the organisms want or need. For example, Lamarck believed that elephants all used to have short trunks. When there was no food or water that they could reach with their short trunks, they stretched their trunks to reach the water and branches, and their offspring inherited long trunks. Lamarck also said that body parts that are not being used, such as the human appendix and little toes are gradually disappearing. Eventually, people will be born without these parts. Lamarck also believed that evolution happens according to a predetermined plan and that the results have already been decided.

Darwin believed that the desires of animals have nothing to do with how they evolve, and that changes in an organism during its life do not affect the evolution of the species. He said that organisms, even of the same species, are all different and that those which happen to have variations that help them to survive in their environments survive and have more offspring. The offspring are born with their parents' helpful traits, and as they reproduce, individuals with that trait make up more of the population. Other indeviduals, that are not so well adapted, die off. Most elephants used to have short trunks, but some had longer trunks. When there was no food or water that they could reach with their short trunks, the ones with short trunks died off, and the ones with long trunks survived and reproduced. Eventually, all of the elephants had long trunks. Darwin also believed that evolution does not happen according to any sort of plan.
What I say about Pain has nothing to do with Lamarckian Evolution. When an Organism, by random genetic processes, develops the ability to feel Pain, it will enhance the Organisms survival rate. The Pain itself will affect the survival rate. Therefore it is a Conscious experience that will affect the survival rate and thus affect the Evolution of the Organism. Conscious experiences obviously affect Evolution. You have to wonder if any kind of more complicated Organism could ever Evolve without something like Pain to help transitional species survive.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by gorgeous » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:41 pm

Ellard, astronauts and govt people have been trained in obe's at the Monroe Institute...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.