The Inter Mind

What you think about how you think.
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Dimebag
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Dimebag » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:27 am

Gord wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:45 am
Dimebag wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:32 am
...you want them to be able to actively effect the body....
You mean affect, right? I have to ask because, as verbs, "effect" means "to bring something into being" whereas "affect" means "to influence something", so you could mean either one depending on how deep down this rabbit hole you're going.
Sorry, I did mean affect.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:21 am

SteveKlinko wrote:Consciousness has existed with and in Animals all through Evolutionary history.
Animals only evolved 500 million years ago. Plants and microbes are 3.8 billion years old. Are you really so ignorant you really think animals evolved first? :lol: :lol:

Secondly, see the Dickinsonia in the drawing below. It was the first animal and it wasn't conscious as it had yet to evolve a complex central nervous system. Are you so ignorant you thought early animals looked like they do today? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why are you so stupid? :lol: :lol:
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:15 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:21 am
SteveKlinko wrote:Consciousness has existed with and in Animals all through Evolutionary history.
Animals only evolved 500 million years ago. Plants and microbes are 3.8 billion years old. Are you really so ignorant you really think animals evolved first? :lol: :lol:

Secondly, see the Dickinsonia in the drawing below. It was the first animal and it wasn't conscious as it had yet to evolve a complex central nervous system. Are you so ignorant you thought early animals looked like they do today? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why are you so stupid? :lol: :lol:

Dickinsonia.jpg
You really are getting goofy. If I say Animals then of course I mean when they existed. You're just playing word games and not being serious about the question. Do you really believe that the experience of Pain has no affect on the survival rates of Animals?

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by landrew » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:25 pm

"Complex" animals appeared in the fossil record around 500 million years ago. Simpler animals appeared before that.
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:57 am

landrew wrote:"Complex" animals appeared in the fossil record around 500 million years ago. Simpler animals appeared before that.
If you are claiming, jelly fish, from 600 million year ago, which do not have a central nervous system are conscious, you should join forces with Steve Klinko now. :lol:
Steve Klinko wrote:"Consciousness has existed with and in Animals all through Evolutionary history.
Do you, landrews, agree with Steve Klinko's claim, that consciousness existed, all through evolutionary history, which actually started 3.8 billion years ago? Yes or No?

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:08 am

SteveKlinko wrote: The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience.
SteveKlinko wrote: If I say Animals then of course I mean when they existed. . Do you really believe that the experience of Pain has no affect on the survival rates of Animals?
So are your claiming the earliest animals, jellyfish are conscious and feel pain? :lol:

Do you now accept that animals with central nervous systems are only 500 million years old?

Do you now understand that evolution was already happening for 3.3 billion years before that, and no consciousness was required?
SteveKlinko wrote: The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience.
SteveKlinko wrote:Do you really believe that the experience of Pain has no affect on the survival rates of Animals?
The genes to feel pain are already evolved in the creature feeling pain. You keep making that same backwards error as you do not know what evolution is. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by landrew » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:58 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:57 am
landrew wrote:"Complex" animals appeared in the fossil record around 500 million years ago. Simpler animals appeared before that.
If you are claiming, jelly fish, from 600 million year ago, which do not have a central nervous system are conscious, you should join forces with Steve Klinko now. :lol:
Steve Klinko wrote:"Consciousness has existed with and in Animals all through Evolutionary history.
Do you, landrews, agree with Steve Klinko's claim, that consciousness existed, all through evolutionary history, which actually started 3.8 billion years ago? Yes or No?
I don't believe that a simple avoidance response is evidence of feeling pain or consciousness. That requires a much more complex brain and nervous system.
By "complex" I meant multicellular, higher animals we associate with swimming creatures, not a sessile animal like coral, or a unicellular animal like a protozoa.

I just want to stick to the topic at hand. No joining forces or tribal battles for me.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:44 am

landrew wrote: I don't believe that a simple avoidance response is evidence of feeling pain or consciousness. That requires a much more complex brain and nervous system.
OK. We agree on that.

Steve Klinko does not understand the difference between innate and conscious decision making processes. A single cell organism will follow a light. It doesn't have to consciously think "I will follow that light".

It is the same thing for pain. Pain is not a conscious thing. Indeed many forms of pain avoid the brain and go through the autonomic nervous system. Pain is an evolved innate reaction, generally to damage, that had to already have evolved for the creature to feel it.

Steve Klinko simply can't grasp that concept as he doesn't understand evolution. That is why he can't set out a mechanism for his Lamarkian, debunked, evolutionary claim.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:09 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:08 am
SteveKlinko wrote: The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience.
SteveKlinko wrote: If I say Animals then of course I mean when they existed. . Do you really believe that the experience of Pain has no affect on the survival rates of Animals?
So are your claiming the earliest animals, jellyfish are conscious and feel pain? :lol:

Do you now accept that animals with central nervous systems are only 500 million years old?

Do you now understand that evolution was already happening for 3.3 billion years before that, and no consciousness was required?
SteveKlinko wrote: The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience.
SteveKlinko wrote:Do you really believe that the experience of Pain has no affect on the survival rates of Animals?
The genes to feel pain are already evolved in the creature feeling pain. You keep making that same backwards error as you do not know what evolution is. :lol: :lol: :lol:
You are a Fool to even suggest that you know anything about the Genesis of Consciousness in the Universe. Nobody knows anything about when Consciousness occurred. No one can say if Consciousness occurred at any particular point in time or if it has always existed.

Now back to the issue at hand. It's really the simplest of all questions that I am asking you: Do you really believe that the experience of Pain would have no affect on the survival rates of Organisms or Animals?

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:15 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:44 am
landrew wrote: I don't believe that a simple avoidance response is evidence of feeling pain or consciousness. That requires a much more complex brain and nervous system.
OK. We agree on that.

Steve Klinko does not understand the difference between innate and conscious decision making processes. A single cell organism will follow a light. It doesn't have to consciously think "I will follow that light".

It is the same thing for pain. Pain is not a conscious thing. Indeed many forms of pain avoid the brain and go through the autonomic nervous system. Pain is an evolved innate reaction, generally to damage, that had to already have evolved for the creature to feel it.

Steve Klinko simply can't grasp that concept as he doesn't understand evolution. That is why he can't set out a mechanism for his Lamarkian, debunked, evolutionary claim.
Avoidance without an actual experience of Pain is not a Pain Response. Only avoidance because of Pain is a Pain Response. You are either purposely confusing concepts to create controversy or you are really just a Confused Shallow Thinker

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:28 am

Must be aliens.jpg
Steve Klinko "It must be aliens then"
SteveKlinko wrote: You are a Fool to even suggest that you know anything about the Genesis of Consciousness in the Universe.
So do you have an example of a conscious alien? :lol: :lol:

Do they have the same neurons as us earthlings? :lol: :lol:

So are you now claiming, for your fairy tale, aliens only see the colour red because a non-physical "thingee" in another dimension is also sucking data from their alien brains and sending it back as colour data?
:lol: :lol:

You are simply making your fairy tale up, as you go now, aren't you? :lol: :lol:
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:36 am

SteveKlinko wrote: Avoidance without an actual experience of Pain is not a Pain Response.
Why are you so stupid?
My autonomous nervous system, uses innate ( non-conscious) systems to reduce inflammation, send antibodies and so on and I also feel a pain consciously. (Do you consciously tell your jaw to swell when you have a sore tooth?) The mechanisms to recognise pain related inputs, evolved first in animals.

You really can't grasp the basics of evolution can you? :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote: or you are really just a Confused Shallow Thinker
I studied human evolution at university and I am laughing at your hilarious nonsensical claims concerning evolution. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Gord » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:05 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:09 pm
No one can say if Consciousness occurred at any particular point in time or if it has always existed.
Whut. :|
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:11 am

SteveKlinko wrote:No one can say if Consciousness occurred at any particular point in time or if it has always existed.
Gord wrote:Whut. :
Steve Klinko is renaming "God" as "consciousness" in an attempt to make his religion sound scientific. You will enjoy this claim he made, below, about the Big Bang. In essence, every time I point out a hole in his fairy tale he adds a new layer. Currently we have aliens in another unknown dimension, sucking out data from aliens and humans in our dimension and sending it back to other aliens and humans, in our dimension so they and we humans, can see colour. (It is very very funny) :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote:Consciousness might have existed prior to the Big Bang and might have even been the cause of the Big Bang."

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Gord » Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:16 am

I've read that before. I was more confused about his claim that "no one can say" something.

I can say it. I'm sure a lot of people can say it. Anyone who can't say it should probably visit a neurologist or something. Maybe a speech therapist.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:03 pm

Gord wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:16 am
I've read that before. I was more confused about his claim that "no one can say" something.

I can say it. I'm sure a lot of people can say it. Anyone who can't say it should probably visit a neurologist or something. Maybe a speech therapist.
Looks like you are trapped up in a Semantic Feedback Loop. I would suggest realigning your Semantic Phase Inverter Coils.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:11 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:36 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Avoidance without an actual experience of Pain is not a Pain Response.
Why are you so stupid?
My autonomous nervous system, uses innate ( non-conscious) systems to reduce inflammation, send antibodies and so on and I also feel a pain consciously. (Do you consciously tell your jaw to swell when you have a sore tooth?) The mechanisms to recognise pain related inputs, evolved first in animals.

You really can't grasp the basics of evolution can you? :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote: or you are really just a Confused Shallow Thinker
I studied human evolution at university and I am laughing at your hilarious nonsensical claims concerning evolution. :lol: :lol: :lol:
It's still not clear to me if you Do, or Do Not, think that the experience of Pain increases the Survival rate of an Organism or an Animal? That is the issue. All your other Ramblings, as usual, are irrelevant to the question.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Poodle » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:03 pm

No, it's not an issue at all. What anyone THINKS the answer to be is completely irrelevant. If there is a question, the answer is determined by research and experiment. If you think that cannot be done, then you're in the metaphysical world where pixies live.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by landrew » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:58 pm

I think pain is irrelevant to simpler organisms. They require only simple programmed avoidance responses like a Roomba and don't feel pain. Pain is part of the learning matrix of higher organisms with highly developed brains. Pain teaches the brain to control behaviors to avoid a stimulus, while pleasure does the opposite.

Insects and simpler animals can learn simple behaviors based on stimuli, but it's doubtful that they do so in a behavioral response to pain or pleasure. A worm will avoid certain passages in a maze to avoid electric shock, but it's a simple mechanical response, not a painful learning experience as we might imagine anthropomorphically.

A friend told me years ago that a fly has emotions, based on the "freaking out" behavior they exhibit when you try to catch them, flying around rapidly at random. I contend that such behavior is simply a programmed response which has nothing to do with emotions. The fly will behave the same way every time it receives that stimulus, unless over-ridden by a different set of stimuli. Simple brains are like computer ROM (read-only memory) with a tiny or absent amount of RAM (random-access memory). Higher organisms such as ourselves are the reverse.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:46 am

SteveKlinko wrote: It's still not clear to me if you Do, or Do Not, think that the experience of Pain increases the Survival rate of an Organism or an Animal?
1) Plants are not conscious and thus cannot experience "pain". "Pain" does not effect their survival rate.

2) Animals that have already evolved consciousness and "pain" receivers are already at equilibrium with the environments they evolved into. It does not effect their species survival rate. If I increased the amount of pain, for something like child birth, less children would be born.

You simply don't understand the theory of evolution. All species evolve to match the environment. That means their phenotype pain thresholds have already reached equilibrium with the environment.

Consciousness / Evolution of Pain / Adaption Trade off
"Others have argued that pain can be demonstrated by adverse reactions to negative stimuli that are non-purposeful or even maladaptive.[79] One such reaction is transmarginal inhibition, a phenomenon observed in humans and some animals akin to mental breakdown."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... 05.00289.x

Berekley University / MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT EVOLUTION
https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibra ... faq.php#b5
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:05 am

landrew wrote: I think pain is irrelevant to simpler organisms. They require only simple programmed avoidance responses like a Roomba and don't feel pain.
Thank you. Consciousness only arose in creatures with central nervous systems, from a common ancestor around 500 million years ago. Prior to that all reactions to external environments was innate ( unconscious evolved behaviours)

Steve Klinko is claiming life on Earth from 3.8 billion years ago required the conscious experience, although no such thing existed. :lol:

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:13 am

Must be aliens.jpg
SteveKlinko wrote: You are a Fool to even suggest that you know anything about the Genesis of Consciousness in the Universe.
Hey Steve Klinko!!!! You didn't answer my question about your conscious aliens in the universe.

According to your "theory", do the other conscious aliens in our dimension, see red because the alien in the other dimension , that allows humans to see red,.....also lets them see red?
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:19 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:36 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Avoidance without an actual experience of Pain is not a Pain Response.
/// I agree completely. Its definitional.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:36 am
Why are you so stupid?
/// I agree completely. It has to be more than to sell tee-shirts as he ain't selling any with the time spent here. something more..........psychological? Say Klink: what other subjects do you enjoy discussion/arguing/thinking about? there should always be more than one.................
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:36 am
My autonomous nervous system, uses innate (non-conscious) systems to reduce inflammation, send antibodies and so on
innate: "Not established by conditioning or learning" aka the same as pain and having nothing to do with conscious systems.........not exactly correct as probably anything an entity is conscious of will lead to some kind of learning about it.....but still. Just giving the illusion of equal-handed ness here (smile)
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:36 am
and I also feel a pain consciously.
pain: A symptom of some physical hurt or disorder //// Symptom: "any sensation or change in bodily function that is experienced...."/// So...again definitionally pain is a conscious recognition. No Conscious recognition: No Pain. The basis for analgesia and Beer.

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:36 am
(Do you consciously tell your jaw to swell when you have a sore tooth?) The mechanisms to recognise pain related inputs, evolved first in animals.
Now, this statement/idea/conflation/misplaced notions is totally fubar....but at least its in a relevant ballpark?
LMFTFY: "The mechanism to recognize/react to/and protect against INJURY which better permits the entity to reproduce and care for its young so they can reproduce is highlighted by the PAIN RESPONSE. Other mechanism also take place like swelling, temperature rise, sweating, etc.

When dealing with made up words and concepts, its doubly important to use Real Words correctly.
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:24 am

I don't know why [/quote] did not fix my post....but it didn't. Hopefully, such typesetting will work next time?
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:48 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote: I don't know why did not fix my post....but it didn't. Hopefully, such typesetting will work next time?
Thank you for that. I understood your above post. I now know that "pain" as defined, can only be used in regards to conscious animals. Therefore I have to reword my rebuttal argument to : the evolution of consciousness integrated existing innate nervous system activities to allow conscious thoughts and management about pain. :D

However that still means there were no animals on Earth experiencing pain until the central nervous system evolved 500 million years ago.

If Steve Klinko is claiming consciousness existed before 500 million years ago, somewhere else in the universe.....it must be an alien and Steve Klinko's claim that it needed another alien in another dimension to see red is knocked out.........as he doesn't know how aliens see different electromagnetic wave forms. :D

QED Steve Klinko's claim is wrong and simply a fairy tale. :D

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:40 am

Poodle wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:03 pm
No, it's not an issue at all. What anyone THINKS the answer to be is completely irrelevant. If there is a question, the answer is determined by research and experiment. If you think that cannot be done, then you're in the metaphysical world where pixies live.
You are Diverting from the issue by this Semantic detour. I know you know what the intention of the question is.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:06 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:46 am

2) Animals that have already evolved consciousness and "pain" receivers are already at equilibrium with the environments they evolved into. It does not effect their species survival rate. If I increased the amount of pain, for something like child birth, less children would be born.
Ok so I take it from this that you maintain that the experience of Pain to avoid and reduce Injury does not increase survival Rates for Organisms or Animals. Thank You for the answer.

However:

Increasing Pain for childbirth would not be a good thing and maybe even result in less children born. This could affect Evolutionary outcomes. But the important thing here is that the experience of Pain, which is a Conscious Phenomenon, looks like it could affect Evolutionary outcomes. Remember that random genetic changes are not always a good thing for an Animal or Organism.

So according to you: Extra Pain during child birth can affect Evolutionary outcomes but normal Pain to avoid and reduce Injury would not affect Evolutionary outcomes.

The important revelation here is that you actually do admit that the experience of Pain could affect Evolutionary outcomes in the case where the Pain of child birth got more intense. You have admitted that a Conscious Phenomenon can affect Population rates and ultimately affect Evolutionary Outcomes. Very Good.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by landrew » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:23 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:05 am
landrew wrote: I think pain is irrelevant to simpler organisms. They require only simple programmed avoidance responses like a Roomba and don't feel pain.
Thank you. Consciousness only arose in creatures with central nervous systems, from a common ancestor around 500 million years ago. Prior to that all reactions to external environments was innate ( unconscious evolved behaviours)

Steve Klinko is claiming life on Earth from 3.8 billion years ago required the conscious experience, although no such thing existed. :lol:
I'm not so certain. It may be semantics, but I believe consciousness requires the ability to place one's self within a model of the world that we construct within our own minds. I'm not sure that dogs or even apes have this ability. Humans may have acquired this ability perhaps 50-100,000 years ago when we began to imagine a world outside of Africa, and developed new strategies for survival in those new habitats. Lower animals can't do that, and must wait for evolution to provide adaptation over millions of years. We can do it in real time, using our consciousness to modify our behaviors to adapt to new situations.

I believe this new ability allowed us to follow the arc of islands along the Indian Ocean, developing new ideas and strategies, until we reached Australia about 50,000 years ago. We found new sources of food, means of transport, perhaps crude boats, and learned how to avoid poisonous and dangerous creatures. All these things were made possible from the narrative we were able to create from our senses and reasoning, and pass on to others.
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:29 am

SteveKlinko wrote: Ok so I take it from this that you maintain that the experience of Pain to avoid and reduce Injury does not increase survival Rates for Organisms or Animals. Thank You for the answer.
You didn't understand a word I wrote. The genes that make you feel pain have to have already evolved for you to feel pain. Before consciousness evolved 500 million years ago innate behaviour performed all the same tasks without requiring consciousness.
SteveKlinko wrote: Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react. There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing.
Tell us why do don't believe in evolved innate behaviour?

It is clear you haven't got a clue what evolution is, how it works and you directly claim evolution has a goal.
SteveKlinko wrote: The Universe might have been created by Consciousness and for Consciousness. We can also speculate that the ultimate goal of Physical Evolution is to provide a better and better host for Consciousness. We can speculate that maybe the very Existence of the Physical Universe is pointless without Consciousness.
Evolution 101 : Evolution does not have "a goal". :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:39 am

landrew wrote: but I believe consciousness requires the ability to place one's self within a model of the world that we construct within our own minds. I'm not sure that dogs or even apes have this ability. Humans may have acquired this ability perhaps 50-100,000 years ago when we began to imagine a world outside of Africa
In 1979 I was heading to Iran to dig up early humans and measure their skulls for Sydney University. (The Iranian revolution ended the dig) Iran is interesting because 65,000 years ago as the humans were burying their dead with flowers. That offers a form of evidence that humans were aware of themselves in their environment at least 65, 000 years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanidar_Cave
"For many years, Shanidar 4 was thought to provide strong evidence for a Neanderthal burial ritual. Routine soil samples from around the body, gathered for pollen analysis in an attempt to reconstruct the palaeoclimate and vegetational history of the site, were analysed eight years after its discovery. In two of the soil samples in particular, whole clumps of pollen were discovered by Arlette Leroi-Gourhan in addition to the usual pollen found throughout the site, suggesting that entire flowering plants (or at least heads of plants) had been part of the grave deposit"

If I had to make a guess, consciousness in humans clearly existed roughly 2 million years ago in homo habilis, as homo habilis had to search for the right stone to make the first stone tools.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:25 am

Consciousness: everything falls on a continuum. THAT is how evolution works.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:19 am

SteveKlinko wrote: Increasing Pain for childbirth would not be a good thing and maybe even result in less children born. This could affect Evolutionary outcomes.

If you had read a basic book about human evolution you would be aware that there was already an evolutionary trade off. Human brains cannot get any bigger if humans are to remain bipedal. Therefore, from homo erectus babies are born with soft skulls and cannot fend for themselves for five of six years, It has nothing to do with pain or conscious behaviour.

Obstetrical dilemma / Why Is Human Childbirth So Painful?
https://www.americanscientist.org/artic ... so-painful

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:21 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:29 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Ok so I take it from this that you maintain that the experience of Pain to avoid and reduce Injury does not increase survival Rates for Organisms or Animals. Thank You for the answer.
You didn't understand a word I wrote. The genes that make you feel pain have to have already evolved for you to feel pain. Before consciousness evolved 500 million years ago innate behaviour performed all the same tasks without requiring consciousness.
SteveKlinko wrote: Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react. There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing.
Tell us why do don't believe in evolved innate behaviour?

It is clear you haven't got a clue what evolution is, how it works and you directly claim evolution has a goal.
SteveKlinko wrote: The Universe might have been created by Consciousness and for Consciousness. We can also speculate that the ultimate goal of Physical Evolution is to provide a better and better host for Consciousness. We can speculate that maybe the very Existence of the Physical Universe is pointless without Consciousness.
Evolution 101 : Evolution does not have "a goal". :lol: :lol: :lol:
You are again a Fool to think you know anything about the existence or non existence of Consciousness 500 million years ago. No one knows what Consciousness is even today. Ironically we don't know what Consciousness is in spite of the fact that we are Consciousness. We don't know what we are.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:32 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:19 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Increasing Pain for childbirth would not be a good thing and maybe even result in less children born. This could affect Evolutionary outcomes.

If you had read a basic book about human evolution you would be aware that there was already an evolutionary trade off. Human brains cannot get any bigger if humans are to remain bipedal. Therefore, from homo erectus babies are born with soft skulls and cannot fend for themselves for five of six years, It has nothing to do with pain or conscious behaviour.

Obstetrical dilemma / Why Is Human Childbirth So Painful?
https://www.americanscientist.org/artic ... so-painful
You were the one that fell into the Trap saying that increased Pain in Childbirth would lead to less births. I'm not exactly sure how increased Pain would lead to significantly less births. Seems like it would just result in more agony for the mothers. But you set up the premise. I just went with it. You probably didn't realize it when you wrote that but you were admitting that the Conscious experience of Pain would lead to less Childbirths. This would lead to reduced offspring, and in the long run could affect Evolutionary outcomes for the species. Thus the Conscious experience of Pain could very well affect Evolutionary outcomes in species.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:33 am

SteveKlinko wrote: You are again a Fool to think you know anything about the existence or non existence of Consciousness 500 million years ago.

You are unable to produce one example of any creature that had a central nervous system before 500 million years ago. You are unable to offer one example of any conscious animal from before 500 million years ago.

You are simply making up a religious fairy tale because you didn't know how life evolved on Earth. You forgot that plants, microbes and so on were evolving for 3.3 billion years before animals evolved.

You additionally forgot that simple creature have evolved innate non-conscious behaviour and made a hilarious claim that nothing could motivate a creature before consciousness evolved.
SteveKlinko wrote: Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react. There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing.
Your fairy tale has been debunked over and over and over again.


"Innate Behavior
One type of behavior that is clearly controlled by genes and subject to natural selection is innate behavior. Innate behavior is behavior that occurs naturally in all members of a species. For innate behavior to occur, it just needs a particular stimulus to trigger it. Innate behavior is also called instinctive behavior. Instinct is the ability of an animal to perform a particular behavior in response to a given stimulus the first time the animal is exposed to the stimulus. In other words, an instinctive behavior does not have to be learned or practiced.

https://www.ck12.org/book/CK-12-Biology ... tion/14.6/
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:46 am

SteveKlinko wrote:. I'm not exactly sure how increased Pain would lead to significantly less births.

That's why I informed you exactly what happened in real evolution and not your bogus fairy tale. Pain and consciousness had nothing to do with it.

Humans cannot grow bigger brains as it is a trade off with bipedal motion. The last brain growth for homo sapiens, was a trade off with babies having soft brains at birth and unable to fend for themselves up until the age of around seven years.

Now explain to me using a evolutionary model, how a mother's thoughts (pain) can change genes so that babies are born with soft skulls. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

False : Evolution always increases consciousness
I will next further debunk your ridiculous claim, using the evolutionary examples where animals have "dumbed down" as a trade off to achieve an alternative adaptive advantage.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:57 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:46 am


False : Evolution always increases consciousness
I will next further debunk your ridiculous claim, using the evolutionary examples where animals have "dumbed down" as a trade off to achieve an alternative adaptive advantage.
I'd be careful of that, giving any kind of "intentionality" to evolution. Its one of the most common errors made, making evolution the cause of anything when it is ALWAYS the result of the environment and selective adaptation. I hope you use the one about squirrels that was stated just last night on Nature or Nova: tree squirrels are smarter than ground squirrels. Jumping around trees requires it....or selects for it...……..and THEN: cover why there are so many stooped hoomans. Whats the selective advantage there?
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:59 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:46 am


False : Evolution always increases consciousness
I will next further debunk your ridiculous claim, using the evolutionary examples where animals have "dumbed down" as a trade off to achieve an alternative adaptive advantage.
I'd be careful of that, giving any kind of "intentionality" to evolution. Its one of the most common errors made, making evolution the cause of anything when it is ALWAYS the result of the environment and selective adaptation. I hope you use the one about squirrels that was stated just last night on Nature or Nova: tree squirrels are smarter than ground squirrels. Jumping around trees requires it....or selects for it...……..and THEN: cover why there are so many stooped hoomans. Whats the selective advantage there?
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:59 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:46 am


False : Evolution always increases consciousness
I will next further debunk your ridiculous claim, using the evolutionary examples where animals have "dumbed down" as a trade off to achieve an alternative adaptive advantage.
I'd be careful of that, giving any kind of "intentionality" to evolution. Its one of the most common errors made, making evolution the cause of anything when it is ALWAYS the result of the environment and selective adaptation. I hope you use the one about squirrels that was stated just last night on Nature or Nova: tree squirrels are smarter than ground squirrels. Jumping around trees requires it....or selects for it...……..and THEN: cover why there are so many stooped hoomans. Whats the selective advantage there?
Last edited by bobbo_the_Pragmatist on Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:59 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:46 am


False : Evolution always increases consciousness
I will next further debunk your ridiculous claim, using the evolutionary examples where animals have "dumbed down" as a trade off to achieve an alternative adaptive advantage.
I'd be careful of that, giving any kind of "intentionality" to evolution. Its one of the most common errors made, making evolution the cause of anything when it is ALWAYS the result of the environment and selective adaptation. I hope you use the one about squirrels that was stated just last night on Nature or Nova: tree squirrels are smarter than ground squirrels. Jumping around trees requires it....or selects for it...……..and THEN: cover why there are so many stooped hoomans. Whats the selective advantage there?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?