Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

What you think about how you think.
Relinquish85
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Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Thu May 26, 2016 11:09 pm

Hey guys! :)

Most of you will probably recognize the first part of this thread starter to be ALMOST identical to the one I did a few months ago called "Your actual experience". In the time since then, I have fleshed out my basic position on this matter and have arrived at this current treatment which I would love to subject to your scrutiny, and perhaps have another fun discussion.


You are aware. 

You perceive 'ever-changing form'.

You seem to be (or have) a particular body/mind. However, isn't this body/mind that you seem to be (or have) just another part of the 'ever-changing form' that is 'perceived' by what You are?

Because 'ever-changing form' is 'the perceived', NO part of it at all (such as ANY body/mind, ANY subpart or 'owner' thereof, or ANYTHING else) can actually BE what You are (that is, a 'perceiver').

That is to say, in truth, to be able to perceive is to be unable to be perceived, because to be able to be perceived is to be unable to perceive.

Therefore, AS a 'perceiver', You are absolutely changeless and formless.

As such, in truth, You have no location or edge, and so You do not begin or end. You are infinite and eternal, as the One unthreatenable Emptiness itself.

You are Pure Awareness; the one and only Perceiver that ever TRULY exists.

The ultimately singular ever-changing form known as 'the universe' is in fact Your only REAL Organism, and as such is an inseparable aspect of Your Being.

It gets it's characteristic asymmetrical structure simply from the fact that it is essentially the inseperable opposite of Your ever-changless and formless Awareness, which is, by it's very nature, perfectly symmetrical. Yet, in order to be coherent enough to be perceived at all, It has a natural 'fractal' inclination to It's perfectly asymmetrical form.

ALL apparent 'things' and 'events' are as they are simply because they are all 'parts' of this one Universal Organism.

Some of the 'nerve ends' of the Organism are of such an extreme level of physical complexity that they have the natural capacity to become 'hypnotized' by their surroundings. This hypnosis makes it seem to these 'nerve ends' (a.k.a. body/minds like the one You SEEM to be or have) as if there is a uniquely isolated, finite and temporary consciousness functioning within each one of them, which in turn gives rise to the illusion that they are the autonomous originators of their own particular movements.

As such, the absolute harmony that naturally exists between all the 'parts' of the Organism (and therefore, the Organism itself) is impossible to be seen by these hypnotized nerve ends. In it's place is seen a situation that seems confusingly fragmented, hostile and threatening. Seeing this, the hypnotized nerve ends are bound to suffer.

But this harmony certainly IS Here and Now, outside of the hypnosis, ever-patiently awaiting 'our' realization of (and resting in) it.

In this resting, there can be no suffering.

Thanks again for reading.

:)
Last edited by Relinquish85 on Sat May 28, 2016 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Fab Yolis » Fri May 27, 2016 12:52 am

Relinquish85 wrote:Hey guys! :)

You are aware. 
Are "you" aware, or is "you" an object within awareness?
You perceive 'ever-changing form'.
Ever-changing form is perceived.
You seem to be (or have) a particular body/mind. However, isn't this body/mind that you seem to be (or have) just another part of the 'ever-changing form' that is 'perceived' by what You are?
FIFY.
Because 'ever-changing form' is 'the perceived', NO part of it at all (such as ANY body/mind, ANY subpart or 'owner' thereof, or ANYTHING else) can actually BE what You are (that is, a 'perceiver').

That is to say, in truth, to be able to perceive is to be unable to be perceived, because to be able to be perceived is to be unable to perceive.

Therefore, AS a 'perceiver', You are absolutely changeless and formless.
This doesn't follow. Why is the ever-changing not capable of perception?

As such, in truth, You have no location or edge, and so You do not begin or end. You are infinite and eternal, as the One unthreatenable Emptiness itself.
Doesn't this claim render the very concept of "you" meaningless?
You are Pure Awareness; the one and only Perceiver that ever TRULY exists.
Except when "you" are unconscious or asleep...
The ultimately singular ever-changing form known as 'the universe' is in fact Your only REAL Organism, and as such is an inseparable aspect of Your Being.
I think you've put the cart before the horse here (or in this case, the person before the universe).
It gets it's characteristic asymmetrical structure simply from the fact that it is essentially the inseperable opposite of Your ever-changless and formless Awareness, which is, by it's very nature, perfectly symmetrical. Yet, in order to be coherent enough to be perceived at all, It naturally has a 'fractal' organization to It's perfectly asymmetrical form.
This doesn't follow either.
ALL apparent 'things' and 'events' are as they are simply because they are all 'parts' of this one Universal Organism.
Aside from the unnecessary use of the term "Universal Organism" instead of "universe", all you're offering here is a trivial tautological idea that "things are what they are because that's what they are".
Some of the 'nerve ends' of the Organism are of such an extreme level of physical complexity that they have the natural capacity to become 'hypnotized' by their surroundings. This hypnosis makes it seem to these 'nerve ends' (a.k.a. inteligent life forms) as if there is a uniquely isolated, finite and temporary consciousness functioning within each one of them, which in turn gives rise to the illusion that they are the autonomous originators of their own particular movements.
Again with the unwarranted use of the term "Organism" instead of simply saying "universe". Are you saying that there is no scope for free will?
As such, the absolute harmony that naturally exists between all the 'parts' of the Organism (and therefore, the Organism itself) is impossible to be seen by these hypnotized nerve ends. In it's place is seen a situation that seems confusingly fragmented, hostile and threatening. Seeing this, the hypnotized nerve ends are bound to suffer.

But this harmony certainly IS Here and Now, outside of the hypnosis, ever-patiently awaiting 'our' realization of (and resting in) it.
Sure, if you also want to stretch the definition of "harmony" to the point of meaninglessness.
In this resting, there can be no suffering.
I doubt there can be any motivation to do anything either.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Fri May 27, 2016 10:12 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:Hey guys! :)

You are aware. 
Are "you" aware, or is "you" an object within awareness?
You perceive 'ever-changing form'.
Ever-changing form is perceived.
You seem to be (or have) a particular body/mind. However, isn't this body/mind that you seem to be (or have) just another part of the 'ever-changing form' that is 'perceived' by what You are?
FIFY.
Because 'ever-changing form' is 'the perceived', NO part of it at all (such as ANY body/mind, ANY subpart or 'owner' thereof, or ANYTHING else) can actually BE what You are (that is, a 'perceiver').

That is to say, in truth, to be able to perceive is to be unable to be perceived, because to be able to be perceived is to be unable to perceive.

Therefore, AS a 'perceiver', You are absolutely changeless and formless.
This doesn't follow. Why is the ever-changing not capable of perception?

As such, in truth, You have no location or edge, and so You do not begin or end. You are infinite and eternal, as the One unthreatenable Emptiness itself.
Doesn't this claim render the very concept of "you" meaningless?
You are Pure Awareness; the one and only Perceiver that ever TRULY exists.
Except when "you" are unconscious or asleep...
The ultimately singular ever-changing form known as 'the universe' is in fact Your only REAL Organism, and as such is an inseparable aspect of Your Being.
I think you've put the cart before the horse here (or in this case, the person before the universe).
It gets it's characteristic asymmetrical structure simply from the fact that it is essentially the inseperable opposite of Your ever-changless and formless Awareness, which is, by it's very nature, perfectly symmetrical. Yet, in order to be coherent enough to be perceived at all, It naturally has a 'fractal' organization to It's perfectly asymmetrical form.
This doesn't follow either.
ALL apparent 'things' and 'events' are as they are simply because they are all 'parts' of this one Universal Organism.
Aside from the unnecessary use of the term "Universal Organism" instead of "universe", all you're offering here is a trivial tautological idea that "things are what they are because that's what they are".
Some of the 'nerve ends' of the Organism are of such an extreme level of physical complexity that they have the natural capacity to become 'hypnotized' by their surroundings. This hypnosis makes it seem to these 'nerve ends' (a.k.a. inteligent life forms) as if there is a uniquely isolated, finite and temporary consciousness functioning within each one of them, which in turn gives rise to the illusion that they are the autonomous originators of their own particular movements.
Again with the unwarranted use of the term "Organism" instead of simply saying "universe". Are you saying that there is no scope for free will?
As such, the absolute harmony that naturally exists between all the 'parts' of the Organism (and therefore, the Organism itself) is impossible to be seen by these hypnotized nerve ends. In it's place is seen a situation that seems confusingly fragmented, hostile and threatening. Seeing this, the hypnotized nerve ends are bound to suffer.

But this harmony certainly IS Here and Now, outside of the hypnosis, ever-patiently awaiting 'our' realization of (and resting in) it.
Sure, if you also want to stretch the definition of "harmony" to the point of meaninglessness.
In this resting, there can be no suffering.
I doubt there can be any motivation to do anything either.
As much as it is not normally realized, to say that awareness fundamentally emerges from a changeful form (such as a brain) is to say that something that is ultimately not aware can potentially have an experience. To say this is to talk nonsense. The very reason why form is never ultimately aware (and can therefore never have an experience of any kind) is precisely because it is what is 'perceived'. The 'You' that is being addressed in the thread starter is the TRUE 'perceiver' of the 'perceived', rather than the ALLEGED perceiver. The One that is TRUELY aware.

So the assertion here is that Reality is actually a Self, and ultimately the only Self that exists. As such, just as this Self has an Awareness (ever-changeless formlessness), it would make sense that It would also have a Body, so I refer to the universe as the Universal Organism.

If the Awareness is formless and the Organism is form, then they are in a way opposite 'sides' of the One Self. So then, if the formless Awareness is perfectly symmetrical, the form of the Organism must be perfectly asymmetrical, as is, relatively speaking, the universe we see all around us. However, it clearly isn't a situation of total chaos, and this is because of the natural fractal inclination that is necessarily inherent in perfect asymmetry in order for it to be at all perceivable. All apparent 'things' have their fundamental place in this One Organism.

As you can see, this leaves no place for free will, except as an illusion, and I explained in the thread starter how this illusion is arrived at.

Motivation for the 'nerve ends' to do stuff is a natural part of the maturing process of the Universal Organism. It happens when it can happen, and doesn't happen when it can't happen.
Last edited by Relinquish85 on Sat May 28, 2016 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Poodle » Fri May 27, 2016 11:37 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:If the Awareness is formless and the Organism is form, then they are in a way opposite 'sides' of the One Self. So then, if the formless Awareness is perfectly symmetrical, the form of the Organism must be perfectly asymmetrical, as is, relatively speaking, the universe we see all around us. However, it clarely isn't a situation of total chaos, and this is because of the natural fractal inclination that necessarily inherent in perfect asymmetry. All apparent 'things' have their fundamental place in this One Organism.
If ... if ... must be ... clearly isn't ...

... is the progression of your argument in a single paragraph. Not the most sparkling of logic. I do like "the natural fractal inclination that necessarily inherent in perfect asymmetry", though. It has a certain ring to it, despite it being juvenile verbiage.

Just remember - in the all-encompassing minisculity can be found the limits of infinity.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat May 28, 2016 12:03 am

"the natural fractal inclination that necessarily inherent in perfect asymmetry" /// It can't even be juvenile until its grammatically coherent...at least structurally forming a complete thought?
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Sat May 28, 2016 1:05 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"the natural fractal inclination that necessarily inherent in perfect asymmetry" /// It can't even be juvenile until its grammatically coherent...at least structurally forming a complete thought?
Yeah....missed that one. Thanks. :)

Here's a correction and a slight edit.

However, it clearly isn't a situation of total chaos, and this is because of the natural fractal inclination that is necessarily inherent in the perfect asymmetry in order for it to be at all perceivable.

Does this at least raise it to the rank of 'juvenile'?

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat May 28, 2016 1:22 am

No....its only capable of such now.

I'd have to google but aren't fractals a type of symmetry? Irrelevant because you have vomited up nothing but word salad. No coherent thought at all.

I wonder if you worked on it for awhile if you actually have the kernel of an idea, anywhere. One deconstructive nalysis to demonstrate: logically you are saying that anything without fractal inclination (sic) which is many, many things cannot be perceived. And yet, many, many things are.

So.......................... you know...................while indecipherable..............it inclines towards pure BS.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Nonpareil » Sat May 28, 2016 1:29 am

Relinquish85 wrote:You perceive 'ever-changing form'.
We are already edging dangerously close to word salad territory.
Relinquish85 wrote:Because 'ever-changing form' is 'the perceived', NO part of it at all (such as ANY body/mind, ANY subpart or 'owner' thereof, or ANYTHING else) can actually BE what You are (that is, a 'perceiver').

That is to say, in truth, to be able to perceive is to be unable to be perceived, because to be able to be perceived is to be unable to perceive.
Non sequitur, bare assertion, contradicts observed evidence. Discarded.
Relinquish85 wrote:Therefore, AS a 'perceiver', You are absolutely changeless and formless.
Non sequitur.
Relinquish85 wrote:As such, in truth, You have no location or edge, and so You do not begin or end. You are infinite and eternal, as the One unthreatenable Emptiness itself.

You are Pure Awareness; the one and only Perceiver that ever TRULY exists.
And we have now descended into full word salad. Solipsistic word salad, at that, so it's even more lacking in substance than usual.

I stopped reading there. Gibberish is not going to convince anyone of anything.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Sat May 28, 2016 1:49 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No....its only capable of such now.

I'd have to google but aren't fractals a type of symmetry? Irrelevant because you have vomited up nothing but word salad. No coherent thought at all.

I wonder if you worked on it for awhile if you actually have the kernel of an idea, anywhere. One deconstructive nalysis to demonstrate: logically you are saying that anything without fractal inclination (sic) which is many, many things cannot be perceived. And yet, many, many things are.

So.......................... you know...................while indecipherable..............it inclines towards pure BS.
Take the example of the Mandelbrot Set. Horizontally it is completely symmetrical, vertically it is completely asymmetrical. The symmetrical aspect of the set is essentially a byproduct of the very fact that it is fundamentally a fractal asymmetry.

What I'm saying is that all forms that occur (either side of the purely mental division between 'natural' and 'man made') are inherent features of the Universal Organism.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat May 28, 2016 3:28 am

See Nonpareil.

OR.....I do assume to the most degree this IS just a joke? An exercise in word salad, hold the dressing?
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Poodle » Sat May 28, 2016 6:59 am

There is something to be extracted from Relinquish85's floral tribute to English so far ...

Everything which is contained within the universe is contained within the universe.

We should be grateful for this staggering insight.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Sat May 28, 2016 10:45 am

Poodle wrote:There is something to be extracted from Relinquish85's floral tribute to English so far ...

Everything which is contained within the universe is contained within the universe.

We should be grateful for this staggering insight.
Haha. I've actually provided a perfectly plausible explanation (that doesn't contradict any of the known evidence) for how everything has come to be the way it is, and showed that 'what we actually ARE' is in truth completely unharmable and free of it all.

I was trying, at least with the first half of the thread starter, to induce an EXPERIENCIAL recognition of this fact, all-together beyond any conceptual conveyance.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Gord » Sat May 28, 2016 11:24 am

This discussion needs more random Deepak Chopra quotes.

The ego quiets essential sexual energy.
The invisible projects onto objective human observation.
Perceptual reality corresponds to great destiny.

Mmmm, there we go. :drool:

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat May 28, 2016 11:27 am

What are we actually?

What is the "it" that cannot harm us?

Experiencial is anecdotal and not science or factual.

If the experiential recognition is beyond any conceptual conveyance ........... shouldn't you shut the {!#%@} up until you can? This very concept is why I stopped reading Anne Rice Interview with the Vampire: "The air had an indescribable foreboding...." and I thought: "But THAT is the very job of YOU as a writer...." and that was the last time I glanced at Anne Rice. Can't tell you how pissed I am she is rich, famous, and popular.... while I post here.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Nonpareil » Sat May 28, 2016 3:47 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:Haha. I've actually provided a perfectly plausible explanation (that doesn't contradict any of the known evidence) for how everything has come to be the way it is, and showed that 'what we actually ARE' is in truth completely unharmable and free of it all.
No.

No, you really haven't.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Sat May 28, 2016 8:16 pm

I ask anyone reading this right now to think back to any previous moment in their life (the further back, the better).

Obviously, whatever You are remembering was perceived by You, just as You are perceiving this right now. You were aware of it.

Now, were You not ultimately aware of the remembered experience (no matter how pleasant or painful, interesting or dull, or whatever) in EXACTLY the same way as You are aware of this current experience of reading these words?

In other words, in Your DIRECT experience, has 'that which is aware of Your experience' (including the experience of the changeful body and mind) ITSELF ever changed? If so, what is the nature of that change, and what was aware of it?

You have witnessed the body and mind continue to mature for the entire duration of it's life, and continuous changes in it's surroundings. Have 'You who witnessed this maturation' also been maturing this whole time, or are You EXACTLY the same as You have ALWAYS been, aware of it in just the same way at every point of the maturation?

Just look.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by fromthehills » Sat May 28, 2016 9:29 pm

Please, changeful? Goddamnit, no.

And memory is a construct of the brain. You got nothing, bud. Look critically at your own opinions, here. You really need to

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat May 28, 2016 10:22 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:I ask anyone reading this right now to think back to any previous moment in their life (the further back, the better).

Obviously, whatever You are remembering was perceived by You,
That's not how memory works. You can remember things that you have not perceived in any way, shape or form. Brain memory is not data storage, it is a reconstruction from a bunch of bits. It drifts over time. After a few years, a remembered experience may have little resemblance to what was actually experienced.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Sat May 28, 2016 11:36 pm

fromthehills wrote:Please, changeful? Goddamnit, no.

And memory is a construct of the brain. You got nothing, bud. Look critically at your own opinions, here. You really need to
I'm sorry, what exactly was your issue with the word 'changeful'?

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Sun May 29, 2016 12:33 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:I ask anyone reading this right now to think back to any previous moment in their life (the further back, the better).

Obviously, whatever You are remembering was perceived by You,
That's not how memory works. You can remember things that you have not perceived in any way, shape or form. Brain memory is not data storage, it is a reconstruction from a bunch of bits. It drifts over time. After a few years, a remembered experience may have little resemblance to what was actually experienced.
Obviously I'm referring to memories of things that WERE perceived by You.

Either way, has 'that which has been aware of Your entire experience of life' (including all the different shapes and sizes the body and mind You SEEM to be have been, and up to and including this moment) ever been aware of it in ANY way other than the way it is aware of the current experience?

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun May 29, 2016 1:16 am

The continuing word salad BS notwithstanding, I spot an undigested corn kernel that might be of interest: "......ever been aware of it in ANY way other than the way it is aware of the current experience?" ///// I recall once thinking that memories/perceptions were much more objective and true than all the epistemological challenges placed before it. Then....I fell on a website that has lots and lots of optical illusions and explanations as to how they work. Bottom line is: what we see and perceive is very much constructed. The stimulus is "real" but our construction of it is "manufactured." In most cases, close enough to tell the difference between a poisonous mushroom and a lion for instance. but still.... And then I read about how memories change over time. And I recall a whole series of "memories" that didn't happen at all..... driven by a very powerful desire to be with a particular woman. I have to INTELLECTUALLY reconstruct where I have been over the years and where she has been over the years and KNOW she never moved to the house 3 doors away, but never visited me. Only furtive glances of her from time to time. The memories are VIVID.

So, as best as I can make some sense of the last post.....I indeed used to perceive/recall/conceive of my experience in ways different than I do now, and I assume I will change for the continuing betterment later. The truth..... is always a bit of reality, and a bit of construction. Percentages to vary on the subject considered.

STOP THE BS!

LATE EDIT: Just because its very relevant and of interest to me: I think the vivid memories I have are actually memories of dreams I had. Its made me be careful of memories from years before. Highly emotional issues seem to be a favorite but maybe only because those are the ones I can separate from reality? Yep. Hot babe I really wanted, another category is JOB situations. Job conflicts that impacted my career path. When I remember that my arms turned into propellers and I flew around the world, I pretty much instantly recognize that was actually just a dream. Still vivid though.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Sun May 29, 2016 1:44 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The continuing word salad BS notwithstanding, I spot an undigested corn kernel that might be of interest: "......ever been aware of it in ANY way other than the way it is aware of the current experience?" ///// I recall once thinking that memories/perceptions were much more objective and true than all the epistemological challenges placed before it. Then....I fell on a website that has lots and lots of optical illusions and explanations as to how they work. Bottom line is: what we see and perceive is very much constructed. The stimulus is "real" but our construction of it is "manufactured." In most cases, close enough to tell the difference between a poisonous mushroom and a lion for instance. but still.... And then I read about how memories change over time. And I recall a whole series of "memories" that didn't happen at all..... driven by a very powerful desire to be with a particular woman. I have to INTELLECTUALLY reconstruct where I have been over the years and where she has been over the years and KNOW she never moved to the house 3 doors away, but never visited me. Only furtive glances of her from time to time. The memories are VIVID.

So, as best as I can make some sense of the last post.....I indeed used to perceive/recall/conceive of my experience in ways different than I do now, and I assume I will change for the continuing betterment later. The truth..... is always a bit of reality, and a bit of construction. Percentages to vary on the subject considered.

STOP THE BS!
That's not what I'm talking about.

It doesn't matter if your memory about was perceived at any time previous is accurate or not, or even whatever was ACTUALLY perceived at any time. The point is that it was ALL (changing thoughts/memories, feelings, sensations and perceptions) perceived by 'something', and has been continuously thoughout the life of 'your' body, up to and including the present moment.

Has this 'something' not always been doing the perceiving of all this change in exactly the same way at all 'points' thoughout?

I'm not talking about phenomena here.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun May 29, 2016 1:49 am

...........but that "something" as best as I can grok your scribblings is constantly changing.

Another huge false equivalency based on ignornace and lack of definitional/clarification. Until you define "something"===you got nothing.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Gord » Sun May 29, 2016 2:46 am

Relinquish85 wrote:Now, were You not ultimately aware of the remembered experience (no matter how pleasant or painful, interesting or dull, or whatever) in EXACTLY the same way as You are aware of this current experience of reading these words?
No.
In other words, in Your DIRECT experience, has 'that which is aware of Your experience' (including the experience of the changeful body and mind) ITSELF ever changed?
Yes.
If so, what is the nature of that change, and what was aware of it?
I changed. I'm different.
You have witnessed the body and mind continue to mature for the entire duration of it's life, and continuous changes in it's surroundings. Have 'You who witnessed this maturation' also been maturing this whole time, or are You EXACTLY the same as You have ALWAYS been, aware of it in just the same way at every point of the maturation?
I have changed. I would not call it "maturing", I would call it "being altered". My awareness has been much greater at points in the past than it is now. I think everyone experiences similar changes, but often without realizing it. In my case, the change was obvious due to its sudden onset; in other people, the change takes years, so they don't seem to notice.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Sun May 29, 2016 9:24 am

The conventional view is that consciousness is fundamentally a mere (but very real) state of the brain. However, the brain (which is albeit unfathomably complex) is entirely comprised of exactly the same non-conscious 'stuff' as the rest of the demonstrably non-conscious universe, which is in a constant state of flux. For this reason, it remains a complete mystery as to how the brain can ever be in a conscious state, being able to actually experience phenomena of many different kinds.

My basic solution to this mystery is the suggestion that only that which is always fundamentally conscious is ever truly conscious. The basic 'stuff' of the universe is NOT fundamentally conscious, and only seems to be intermittently conscious when it has reached the particular (as yet unknown) level of complexity observed in the brain. As such, I assert that the brain (along with all other physical phenomena) is NEVER truly conscious at all. The brain state of consciousness is an illusion.

However, there is undeniably 'SOMETHING' that is truly conscious in Reality. It is the fundamental nature of this 'something' to be ever-changelessly conscious, so we can call it Pure Consciousness, or Consciousness Itself.

Intermittent consciousness is an illusion, but if there is any illusion going on, there must exist a real Consciousness that isn't intermittent. There is no such thing as a 'non-intermittent form'.

Therefore, Consciousness Itself (the only one that is truly conscious) is absolutely formless, and so, infinite.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Poodle » Sun May 29, 2016 10:41 am

fromthehills wrote:Please, changeful? Goddamnit, no.
You know, from, I'm in complete agreement with you. It really is a word, though, defined in the OED. It does mean 'full of change', or 'changeable' but it's interesting what the OED says about its use. It's restricted to poetic use - works of fiction and fancy.

After thinking about it for a while, it's therefore probably in exactly the right place.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Gord » Sun May 29, 2016 1:00 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:...the brain (which is albeit unfathomably complex) is entirely comprised of exactly the same non-conscious 'stuff' as the rest of the demonstrably non-conscious universe, which is in a constant state of flux. For this reason, it remains a complete mystery as to how the brain can ever be in a conscious state, being able to actually experience phenomena of many different kinds.
My car (which is albeit unfathomably complex) is entirely comprised of exactly the same non-automotive 'stuff' as the rest of the demonstrably non-automotive universe, which for some reason it's important to state is in a constant state of flux. For this reason, it remains a complete mystery as to how my Toyota can ever be in an automotive state, being able to actually burn gasoline and be driven around the neighbourhood and whatnot.

Because I don't understand how it works, therefore it must not work the way it seems to.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by fromthehills » Sun May 29, 2016 1:58 pm

Poodle wrote:
fromthehills wrote:Please, changeful? Goddamnit, no.
You know, from, I'm in complete agreement with you. It really is a word, though, defined in the OED. It does mean 'full of change', or 'changeable' but it's interesting what the OED says about its use. It's restricted to poetic use - works of fiction and fancy.

After thinking about it for a while, it's therefore probably in exactly the right place.

I had to break out my OED with accompanying magnifying glass. Yeah, sure enough. I agree, it's used in proper context, then.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Poodle » Sun May 29, 2016 2:20 pm

fromthehills wrote:
Poodle wrote:
fromthehills wrote:Please, changeful? Goddamnit, no.
You know, from, I'm in complete agreement with you. It really is a word, though, defined in the OED. It does mean 'full of change', or 'changeable' but it's interesting what the OED says about its use. It's restricted to poetic use - works of fiction and fancy.

After thinking about it for a while, it's therefore probably in exactly the right place.

I had to break out my OED with accompanying magnifying glass. Yeah, sure enough. I agree, it's used in proper context, then.
AHHHH! Now I don't know if you know what I was getting at. :lol:

Just in case, I was referring to the fiction and fancy bit. And yes, mine has a magnifying boulder too.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by fromthehills » Sun May 29, 2016 2:22 pm

:P yeah, yeah. Exactly

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Nonpareil » Sun May 29, 2016 8:32 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:The conventional view is that consciousness is fundamentally a mere (but very real) state of the brain.
No. Consciousness is a process, involving changes in brain states. A single brain state is not consciousness.
Relinquish85 wrote:However, the brain (which is albeit unfathomably complex) is entirely comprised of exactly the same non-conscious 'stuff' as the rest of the demonstrably non-conscious universe, which is in a constant state of flux. For this reason, it remains a complete mystery as to how the brain can ever be in a conscious state, being able to actually experience phenomena of many different kinds.
Not so much of a mystery as all that, really. There are quite a lot of varying theories on the subject; Tononi's integrated information theory, for example.

Admittedly, none of these are confirmed, but we are not so clueless as all that.
Relinquish85 wrote:My basic solution to this mystery is the suggestion that only that which is always fundamentally conscious is ever truly conscious.
Define "fundamentally conscious".

Define "truly conscious".
Relinquish85 wrote:However, there is undeniably 'SOMETHING' that is truly conscious in Reality. It is the fundamental nature of this 'something' to be ever-changelessly conscious, so we can call it Pure Consciousness, or Consciousness Itself.
Define "ever-changelessly conscious".
Relinquish85 wrote:Intermittent consciousness is an illusion, but if there is any illusion going on, there must exist a real Consciousness that isn't intermittent.
Non sequitur.
Relinquish85 wrote:There is no such thing as a 'non-intermittent form'.
Bare assertion, undefined term.
Relinquish85 wrote:Therefore, Consciousness Itself (the only one that is truly conscious) is absolutely formless, and so, infinite.
Non sequitur, followed by a non sequitur, insufficiently defined.

Try harder.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by gorgeous » Sun May 29, 2016 8:53 pm

you let pompous Non down... :(
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Sun May 29, 2016 9:38 pm

Gord wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:...the brain (which is albeit unfathomably complex) is entirely comprised of exactly the same non-conscious 'stuff' as the rest of the demonstrably non-conscious universe, which is in a constant state of flux. For this reason, it remains a complete mystery as to how the brain can ever be in a conscious state, being able to actually experience phenomena of many different kinds.
My car (which is albeit unfathomably complex) is entirely comprised of exactly the same non-automotive 'stuff' as the rest of the demonstrably non-automotive universe, which for some reason it's important to state is in a constant state of flux. For this reason, it remains a complete mystery as to how my Toyota can ever be in an automotive state, being able to actually burn gasoline and be driven around the neighbourhood and whatnot.

Because I don't understand how it works, therefore it must not work the way it seems to.
You are suggesting that consciousness is a sum of parts. Well, if this is the case, it is the only sum of parts in the universe that can actually EXPERIENCE other sums of parts.

If ALL of the parts are ultimately the same stuff, and as such all the sums of parts are the same stuff too, how is this possible?

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by gorgeous » Sun May 29, 2016 9:43 pm

sum of parts of what???....something non-physical....
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Sun May 29, 2016 10:45 pm

Nonpareil wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:The conventional view is that consciousness is fundamentally a mere (but very real) state of the brain.
No. Consciousness is a process, involving changes in brain states. A single brain state is not consciousness.
Relinquish85 wrote:However, the brain (which is albeit unfathomably complex) is entirely comprised of exactly the same non-conscious 'stuff' as the rest of the demonstrably non-conscious universe, which is in a constant state of flux. For this reason, it remains a complete mystery as to how the brain can ever be in a conscious state, being able to actually experience phenomena of many different kinds.
Not so much of a mystery as all that, really. There are quite a lot of varying theories on the subject; Tononi's integrated information theory, for example.

Admittedly, none of these are confirmed, but we are not so clueless as all that.
Relinquish85 wrote:My basic solution to this mystery is the suggestion that only that which is always fundamentally conscious is ever truly conscious.
Define "fundamentally conscious".

Define "truly conscious".
Relinquish85 wrote:However, there is undeniably 'SOMETHING' that is truly conscious in Reality. It is the fundamental nature of this 'something' to be ever-changelessly conscious, so we can call it Pure Consciousness, or Consciousness Itself.
Define "ever-changelessly conscious".
Relinquish85 wrote:Intermittent consciousness is an illusion, but if there is any illusion going on, there must exist a real Consciousness that isn't intermittent.
Non sequitur.
Relinquish85 wrote:There is no such thing as a 'non-intermittent form'.
Bare assertion, undefined term.
Relinquish85 wrote:Therefore, Consciousness Itself (the only one that is truly conscious) is absolutely formless, and so, infinite.
Non sequitur, followed by a non sequitur, insufficiently defined.

Try harder.
Of all the varying theories on the subject, no matter how intricate, we remain utterly clueless as to weather or not any of them are even pointing in the right direction. Even if we arrive at a genuine consensus about a particular theory, the question "how do these processes (that we have PROVEN cause an experience to be had) cause an experience to be had?" will remain. The fact that this question can never have an empirically verifiable answer doesn't make it a meaningless question.

Fundamentally conscious means conscious 'of itself' by it's own nature.

Truly conscious means conscious in a non-illusory way.

Ever-changelessly conscious means eternally conscious in the same way.

There can be no illusion outside of the apparentness of that illusion. There can be no apparentness outside of the experiencing of that apparentness. There can be no experiencing outside of consciousness. So even if the consciousness that emerges from brain activity is an illusion (as Dan Dennett asserts), there must also exist a Consciousness that ISN'T an illusion.

This REAL Consciousness can not have a non-conscious source or cause. REAL Consciousness is causeless, and therefore eternal and infinite. It isn't an effect.
Last edited by Relinquish85 on Sun May 29, 2016 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by gorgeous » Sun May 29, 2016 10:47 pm

Admittedly, none of these are confirmed,-----------------so..just more made up stuff..
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Sun May 29, 2016 10:52 pm

gorgeous wrote:Admittedly, none of these are confirmed,-----------------so..just more made up stuff..
That's not what I said. I'm saying that the best confirmation science can possibly give us about this will not rid us of the question that we want answered more than any other.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun May 29, 2016 11:01 pm

"If the religious could accept rational argument/facts, they wouldn't be religious to begin with."

But the tautology is very tight. If you keep asking the same question, filter out all the "no's," what you have left is all the "yes's."
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Gord » Mon May 30, 2016 1:22 am

Relinquish85 wrote:
Gord wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:...the brain (which is albeit unfathomably complex) is entirely comprised of exactly the same non-conscious 'stuff' as the rest of the demonstrably non-conscious universe, which is in a constant state of flux. For this reason, it remains a complete mystery as to how the brain can ever be in a conscious state, being able to actually experience phenomena of many different kinds.
My car (which is albeit unfathomably complex) is entirely comprised of exactly the same non-automotive 'stuff' as the rest of the demonstrably non-automotive universe, which for some reason it's important to state is in a constant state of flux. For this reason, it remains a complete mystery as to how my Toyota can ever be in an automotive state, being able to actually burn gasoline and be driven around the neighbourhood and whatnot.

Because I don't understand how it works, therefore it must not work the way it seems to.
You are suggesting that consciousness is a sum of parts. Well, if this is the case, it is the only sum of parts in the universe that can actually EXPERIENCE other sums of parts.
The sum of the parts of a black hole is the only sum of parts in the universe that possesses the properties of a singularity.

The sum of the parts of the water in my coffee cup is the only sum of parts in the universe that experiences the position of being within my coffee cup.

The sum of the parts of a car is the only sum of parts in the universe that possesses the qualities of being a car.

So what? Only things that make up specific objects are the things that make up specific objects. This should come as no surprise to anyone.
If ALL of the parts are ultimately the same stuff, and as such all the sums of parts are the same stuff too, how is this possible?
Because all the "same stuff" differentiates into forms with varying emergent properties. Water is made of oxygen and hydrogen, and possesses properties neither hydrogen nor oxygen have on their own. It's a feature of the "stuff".
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Fab Yolis » Mon May 30, 2016 1:36 am

Relinquish85 wrote: As much as it is not normally realized, to say that awareness fundamentally emerges from a changeful form (such as a brain) is to say that something that is ultimately not aware can potentially have an experience. To say this is to talk nonsense.
Why does changeability preclude the possibility of awareness? What is wrong with saying that something which is ultimately not aware can potentially have an experience?
The very reason why form is never ultimately aware (and can therefore never have an experience of any kind) is precisely because it is what is 'perceived'.
Why are the ability to perceive and the state of being perceived mutually exclusive?
The 'You' that is being addressed in the thread starter is the TRUE 'perceiver' of the 'perceived', rather than the ALLEGED perceiver. The One that is TRUELY aware.
What "True" Perceiver? How have you established the existence of this entity?
So the assertion here is that Reality is actually a Self, and ultimately the only Self that exists.
What do you mean by "Self"?
As such, just as this Self has an Awareness (ever-changeless formlessness), it would make sense that It would also have a Body, so I refer to the universe as the Universal Organism.
In other words, you fabricate some vague notion of a "Self" and then arbitrarily assign the universe as its body, and then point to the universe as evidence of the Self. This is an example of circular reasoning.

How can awareness be "ever-changeless formlessness"? Isn't awareness always in relation to an object of awareness? Doesn't that suggest that awareness is continually subject to change?
If the Awareness is formless and the Organism is form, then they are in a way opposite 'sides' of the One Self. So then, if the formless Awareness is perfectly symmetrical, the form of the Organism must be perfectly asymmetrical, as is, relatively speaking, the universe we see all around us. However, it clearly isn't a situation of total chaos, and this is because of the natural fractal inclination that is necessarily inherent in perfect asymmetry in order for it to be at all perceivable. All apparent 'things' have their fundamental place in this One Organism.
Unsubstantiated gobbledygook.
As you can see, this leaves no place for free will, except as an illusion, and I explained in the thread starter how this illusion is arrived at.
No, I don't see that. It might help if you actually defined what you meant by "free will"...
Motivation for the 'nerve ends' to do stuff is a natural part of the maturing process of the Universal Organism. It happens when it can happen, and doesn't happen when it can't happen.
So now you've arbitrarily fabricated a "maturing process" for your arbitrarily fabricated "Self" to undergo, and then told us in an unnecessarily mystical way that things happen when they happen. Are we supposed to be impressed by this??
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