The Inter Mind

What you think about how you think.
Matthew Ellard
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:45 am

mack_10 wrote: Why are people taking this muddled mishapen nonsense seriously?
Essentially, the same fuzzy claims keep getting posted by different people, who think they have invented something new, or by people who are trying to make money with a new perpetual motion machine or psychology tonic or other crank idea.

A good skeptic reads all theses claims and some of them, do seem, at first glance, to have merit, however most are rubbish from the first paragraph. If the claims are nonsense, it then becomes an entertaining game, like a crossword, to identify all the errors and present the errors back to the person making the claim. In this thread Steve Klinko is putting up a fight because he has all the t-shirts he wants to sell.

However, there is a nasty side. For example, this forum has the largest anti-holocaust denial sub form. We get very bad people who make scientific and historical claims to promote fascism and racial prejudiced behaviour. Thankfully we have some very well educated historians who argue back with citations and good logic. All through the general threads you will see some people promoting Trump or denigrating Islam, or promoting a book on ESP or even the remains of a 1960's cult. It is the skeptics who argue back against these people who post counter arguments that the general public can read and potentially use.

/////////

There are rules for debate that skeptics. One of those rules is "don't argue against your own strawman argument" which means a skeptic cannot define what the person making the claim is arguing, but must force the person making the claim to define his argument. Steve Klinko, states he has no actual hypothesis ( defined claim) and is merely "speculating". This allows him to claim directly opposing claims at the same time. That's why we have to quote him and he never offers to define his claim.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:06 am

SteveKlinko wrote: But the Stripes, in and of themselves, affect the future Evolution of the Animal.
Soooooooo...........you are now saying that every evolved adaption in a species affects future evolution.

That absolutely destroys your entire claim that
SteveKlinko wrote: "It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience".
You can stop posting here now. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:08 am

SteveKlinko wrote: I'm not trying to be funny
Try harder. Everyone here is laughing at you. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:47 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:06 am
SteveKlinko wrote: But the Stripes, in and of themselves, affect the future Evolution of the Animal.
Soooooooo...........you are now saying that every evolved adaption in a species affects future evolution.

That absolutely destroys your entire claim that
SteveKlinko wrote: "It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience".
You can stop posting here now. :lol: :lol: :lol:
I try to make sure I say Can Affect Evolution and not Does Affect Evolution.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:09 pm

I have found that a significant number of the Physicalists on this forum and in other media will try to minimize the existence and importance of Consciousness because they have no way to deal with it. This was the motivation for writing "The Primacy Of Consciousness" section on the website. This section tries to show how, not only is Consciousness Important, but it is of Primary Importance. I think now is a good time to post that section:

The Scientific view of Consciousness is that it is some kind of byproduct of Neural Activity in the Brain. Most Scientists believe that Consciousness is not very important and some go so far as to say that it is just an Illusion with no real purpose. Philosophers have invented the Philosophical Zombie as a tool for thinking about Consciousness or the lack of Consciousness. The P-Zombie is supposed to live and interact with the World just like any one else except that it would not be Conscious.

But from the Inter Mind Model point of view the P-Zombie would be blind and would not be able to interact with the World. The Inter Mind (IM) and the Conscious Mind (CM) are further processing stages that are absolutely necessary for Sight. Neural Activity is not enough. All we know about Seeing is through Conscious experience. We experience the Conscious Light (CL) that's inside us. Take away the CL experience and what's left? Blind Neural Activity is all you have. You will not See anything. The Primacy of the CL experience for Sight is undeniable, and the same is true for every other Conscious experience that you have. You don't know anything about the Physical World except that which you obtain through your own internal Conscious experiences.

The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react. There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing. This applies to simple organisms and to Humans. It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience.

Since Science is unable to say what Consciousness is we can and should speculate what it could be and how it could have developed. We can, for example, speculate that Consciousness might have existed prior to the Big Bang and might have even been the cause of the Big Bang. The Universe might have been created by Consciousness and for Consciousness. We can also speculate that the ultimate goal of Physical Evolution is to provide a better and better host for Consciousness. We can speculate that maybe the very Existence of the Physical Universe is pointless without Consciousness. Maybe the Physical Body is just some sort of incubator for the Conscious Mind (CM) and the Conscious Mind (CM) is the more important part. Maybe the Physical Mind (PM) creates a Connection to Conscious Space (CSp) in order to create a CM in that CSp. The CM would then strictly exist only in that CSp. All speculations are still on the table. Remember that the only thing we know about the Physical Universe is through our Conscious experiences. Conscious Experiences are Primary to what we are.

Scientists need to find a way to understand and study Consciousness. They have to stop hiding their inability to study Consciousness by trying to minimize its importance. The Primacy of Consciousness must be understood.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:24 pm

So who thinks Science actually has a good way to study Consciousness? Who thinks that Science has even a clue about what Consciousness really is? Not the Neural Correlates of Consciousness but actual Consciousness itself? Do any of you Physicalists understand the Special Nature of Consciousness? Show me how Consciousness is all in the Neurons.

This thread is about Consciousness. The continual harping on peripheral issues is revealing of the complete lack of understanding of Consciousness by the Physicalists on this thread. There is a Hard Problem in the Physicalist view that they are afraid to address. Actually they are just unable to address it. Science does not yet have the knowledge about Consciousness for the Physicalists to work with so they try to minimize the existence and importance of Consciousness. The Primacy of Consciousness must be understood. The Physiclists must learn to think Deeper about the Phenomenon of Consciousness.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by mack_10 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:44 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:24 pm
So who thinks Science actually has a good way to study Consciousness? Who thinks that Science has even a clue about what Consciousness really is? Not the Neural Correlates of Consciousness but actual Consciousness itself? Do any of you Physicalists understand the Special Nature of Consciousness? Show me how Consciousness is all in the Neurons.

This thread is about Consciousness. The continual harping on peripheral issues is revealing of the complete lack of understanding of Consciousness by the Physicalists on this thread. There is a Hard Problem in the Physicalist view that they are afraid to address. Actually they are just unable to address it. Science does not yet have the knowledge about Consciousness for the Physicalists to work with so they try to minimize the existence and importance of Consciousness. The Primacy of Consciousness must be understood. The Physiclists must learn to think Deeper about the Phenomenon of Consciousness.
Mind is a function of the brain QED
It is for the person making the extraordinary claim to provide proof
Why do you believe what you believe?
What phenomenum did you observe that made you reject a century of neurobiology for a new version of the soul?
Did you read it in a book? Which book?
Did you read it in an article in a journal? Citation?
Did it come to you in a dream? Kekule's understanding of aromatic compounds came to him in a dream?
What made you think that microtubules can respond to "quantum fluctutations"? When the functions of microtubules in the cytoskeleton including retrograde and anterograde transport are so well documented?
Where is even a tiny scrap of possible proof for your extraordinary claim?
Have you read any neurobiology? If not on what basis can you claim an interest in "brain science"?
It is not for others to accept your unsubstantiated claims, when they run contrary to the vast subject that is neurobiology, it is for you to show proof.
If you can not show any form of proof what difference does your claim make?
And no, none of use want to buy T-shirts from you

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:48 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:I have found that a significant number of the Physicalists on this forum and in other media will try to minimize the existence and importance of Consciousness because they have no way to deal with it.

Not in the slightest. Firstly, you never made a fixed hypothesis, You keep making fuzzy contradicting statements pretending you were "speculating". After a while it became apparent you didn't have a clue what you were discussing and you could never set out any evidence or mechanism for your claims. You were simply here to sell your awful t-shirts.
SteveKlinko wrote:The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience.
Life on Earth is 3.7 billion years old. The first conscious species were chordates, with CNS, only 350 million years ago. When we informed you about this you lied and pretended there was some sort of early conscious species on Earth 3.7 billion years ago, with no evidence. Everyone laughed at you. :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote:Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react.
Innate reactions occur in species that are not conscious. You keep pretending to forget that. :lol: :lol:

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:55 pm

mack_10 wrote: And no, none of use want to buy T-shirts from you
The t-shirts are just terrible. Steve Klinko "composed" a slogan for his religion that appears on every t-shirt. The slogan is just awful. :D
t-shirt.JPG
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:22 am

I disagree. Anyone drawn to the light, or light in their loafers, should love such a tee-shirt. I do prefer them wet...........
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:54 pm

mack_10 wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:44 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:24 pm
So who thinks Science actually has a good way to study Consciousness? Who thinks that Science has even a clue about what Consciousness really is? Not the Neural Correlates of Consciousness but actual Consciousness itself? Do any of you Physicalists understand the Special Nature of Consciousness? Show me how Consciousness is all in the Neurons.

This thread is about Consciousness. The continual harping on peripheral issues is revealing of the complete lack of understanding of Consciousness by the Physicalists on this thread. There is a Hard Problem in the Physicalist view that they are afraid to address. Actually they are just unable to address it. Science does not yet have the knowledge about Consciousness for the Physicalists to work with so they try to minimize the existence and importance of Consciousness. The Primacy of Consciousness must be understood. The Physiclists must learn to think Deeper about the Phenomenon of Consciousness.
Mind is a function of the brain QED
It is for the person making the extraordinary claim to provide proof
Why do you believe what you believe?
What phenomenum did you observe that made you reject a century of neurobiology for a new version of the soul?
Did you read it in a book? Which book?
Did you read it in an article in a journal? Citation?
Did it come to you in a dream? Kekule's understanding of aromatic compounds came to him in a dream?
What made you think that microtubules can respond to "quantum fluctutations"? When the functions of microtubules in the cytoskeleton including retrograde and anterograde transport are so well documented?
Where is even a tiny scrap of possible proof for your extraordinary claim?
Have you read any neurobiology? If not on what basis can you claim an interest in "brain science"?
It is not for others to accept your unsubstantiated claims, when they run contrary to the vast subject that is neurobiology, it is for you to show proof.
If you can not show any form of proof what difference does your claim make?
And no, none of use want to buy T-shirts from you
I just really want to know, for example, how the Brain can produce an Experience of Redness in the Mind. Can anyone in the world explain that? Saying it's all in the Neurons is not an Explanation. Saying it is all an Illusion is not an Explanation. I'm looking for an answer to the Hard Problem of Consciousness. Because I have not been able to find that answer through Science, or Philosophy I am forced to make Speculations about Consciousness. You are demanding explanations for Speculations. If you want to denigrate the act of Speculating then you don't understand the Depth of the lack of understanding that Science has regarding Consciousness. All there is are Speculations when it comes to Consciousness. You should think more Deeply about Consciousness and the Experience of something like the Redness of Red. What do you think that Redness is, that is in your Mind? How can Neurons firing produce such a Phenomenon? Tell me where in Brain Science it is that this is Explained? This is not a rhetorical question implying that I think that Brain Science does not have the answer. It just implies that I haven't found it in what I have read.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:00 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:55 pm
mack_10 wrote: And no, none of use want to buy T-shirts from you
The t-shirts are just terrible. Steve Klinko "composed" a slogan for his religion that appears on every t-shirt. The slogan is just awful. :D
t-shirt.JPG
Thank You for the advertisement. So what do you not understand about the slogan?

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Poodle » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:02 pm

I wonder which part of the universe holds the Smell Repository and Nasal Reference Library.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:16 pm

Here is a snippet from the Inter Mind website that summarizes the sequence of processing that happens with the Perception of Light, and to the conclusion that "We all Have Our Own Light":

According to the Inter Mind Model: Physical Light is converted into Neural Light by the Physical Mind in Physical Space, and then Neural Light is converted into Conscious Light by the Inter Mind, and then Conscious Light is what is actually perceived by the Conscious Mind in Conscious Space. But the Physical Light, Neural Light, and Conscious Light are three very different kinds of phenomena related to the experience of Light. The Physical Light is Electro-Magnetic Energy, the Neural Light is Neural Activity in the Visual areas, and the Conscious Light is the Thing that we actually perceive.

This means that we all have our own Personal Conscious Light that we use to guide us while moving around in the world. I have my own Conscious Light and every other person on the planet has their own Conscious Light. No one sees Physical Light but only their own Personal Conscious Light. I have my Light, you have your Light, we all have our own Light. We don't really See in the way we think we do, rather we examine our Conscious Light to determine what we are looking at. So instead of asking the question: "What do you see?", we should ask: "What does your Conscious Light show you?".

Physicalists: Even if it is all in the Neurons, it is still Your Own Neurons, and it is still Your Own Light. Furthermore, You Are That Light, that you have always seen.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:28 am

SteveKlinko wrote: Thank You for the advertisement.
That wasn't an advertisement for your repulsive t-shirts. It was more like showing a photo of a car crash as a warning to drivers to stay away. :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote:So what do you not understand about the slogan?
I understand it exactly. It is a logo written by a complete idiot who doesn't understand basic marketing. The same sort of idiot who posts his religious inter mind fairy tale on a skeptic forum to get publicity and, instead, gets laughed at while his scientific errors are systematically identified. :lol: :lol:

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:30 am

SteveKlinko wrote: Here is a snippet from the Inter Mind website................
Do you really think spamming your religious crap on our science forum helps promote your stupid religion? :lol: :lol:

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dimebag » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:51 am

I would be interested Steve, given the model of the inter mind which you have come up with, are there any testable predictions you could make based on the structure of your model? Does it say anything about what we currently know of the brain, or could you posit a hypothesis based on anything your model postulates? If not, what exactly do you want from people here, or the wider neuroscientific community in general? Is it simply to acknowledge that there is a phenomena which needs explaining, I.e. what is consciousness and how does the brain do it?

Based on the criticisms you have read in the now thousands of comments in these two threads regarding your inter mind, is there anything you think needs to be changed, any statements which on second thought are probably unjustified? Imagine yourself as someone else examining your work here, what do you imagine they might suggest?

My opinion:

1. Drop the talk about consciousness guiding evolution, it is clear now that consciousness does not play a role in any directing of evolution.

2. Find a different way to talk about your concepts which is more in line with the field you are examining. Use neuroscientific terms where they exist. If they don’t, look to psychology. If that fails, philosophy is necessary, but chances are there already exist terms which cover the concepts you are exploring.

3. Show your references. If you want people to take you seriously they need to see you have read the literature and aren’t just spitballing ideas but really understand the field you are describing and delving into. Find ways to tie those references into your work to support your ideas.

4. During your reviewing of the literature, ensure you keep a clear distinction between your ideas and the established knowledge on the subject.

5. Back up your claims with evidence, even if it is from philosophers with similar opinions, but you need something to support your claims. People need to see how you came to your conclusions.

6. Drop anything and all woo related, this means no references to the soul, religion, quantum consciousness, telekinesis/telepathy/stranger things inspired seti communication, esp. you know what I mean. Any attempt at sneaking this in destroys your credibility. You will gain nothing by including this beyond ridicule.

7. Ensure there are no logical inconsistencies within your work, and where they exist, address them.

8. Take on board criticism and use it to improve your work.

I hope you heed this and reflect on it.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:56 am

Dimebag wrote: I would be interested Steve, given the model of the inter mind which you have come up with, are there any testable predictions you could make based on the structure of your model?
That is a great question. However Gord went one step further. A hypothesis has to match an observed hypothesis and Steve Klinko has offered no evidence for the "observed facts" in his claim. Steve Klinko simply ignored Gord's question.
Dimebag wrote: 1. Drop the talk about consciousness guiding evolution, it is clear now that consciousness does not play a role in any directing of evolution.
Hear hear!!!
Dimebag wrote:5. Back up your claims with evidence, even if it is from philosophers with similar opinions, but you need something to support your claims. People need to see how you came to your conclusions.
Hear hear!!!

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by mirror93 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:43 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:11 pm
Dimebag wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:00 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:06 pm
Poodle wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:01 am
For the future reference of anyone else who feels like jumping in head first with zero knowledge, I think it worthwhile to state some basics ...
1. The generally accepted theory is that consciousness (and let's keep it to human consciousness to avoid a million levels of squirmy argument) is an emergent property of the kind of Central Nervous System that humans have.
2. Steve's Inter Mind theory is that it is not, and that there is some part of human consciousness which resides outside of any individual human organism.
That, in a nutshell, is the matter for discussion. Statement 1 makes it all internal and Statement 2 makes at least part of it external. I think Steve is away with the fairies and Steve thinks I'm away with 'em too. However, the emergent property case stays within the physical constraints of the universe whereas the Inter Mind case depends upon supra-natural phenomena (that's the politest way I can put it).
The Inter Mind website clearly states, in multiple places, that Consciousness could all be located in the Neurons like the Physicalists Believe. But the website also acknowledges that Consciousness could also be some new Category of Phenomena that is currently outside of any known Scientific Phenomena. Nobody knows for sure at this point. One thing for sure is that there has to be some sort of Inter Mind concept for either of these two trains of thought to be true. First, if Consciousness is all in the Neurons then there must be some more processing or some new Property of Neurons that will Explain the Consciousness Property of Neurons. This new Processing or this Property will be implemented by something we should call the Inter Mind effect. Second, if Consciousness really is some new Phenomenon of Nature then there must be some kind of Processing or Connection that must happen that Explains How Neural Activity leads to Conscious Activity. We should call the thing that implements this the Inter Mind.
(To all the skeptics reading this, please humour me for a minute)

Hey Steve, I was wondering. I imagine your inter mind concept to be something like a non physical dimension which allows any one point to be connected to any other point, like some kind of entangled mesh. And somehow in this space “processing” can take place. But I wonder why wouldn’t the inter mind have connected directly to the sense organs, making the rest of the brain redundant? It seems like the inter mind is a non physical representation of the information contained in the brain, but because binding is seen as a problem, you have tried to get around that by shifting the information to somewhere it is all connected. It seems to me, however, that by shifting all of these connections to this “new dimension”, that there is a redundant duplication, with the physical brain and it’s neuronal firing patterns containing connected information. I don’t see why you need another duplication of these connections. The inter mind seems redundant, even when I try to take it seriously.
̶i̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶a̶p̶p̶e̶a̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶f̶o̶r̶m̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶a̶l̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶c̶r̶e̶a̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶g̶r̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶c̶e̶n̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶e̶x̶p̶e̶r̶i̶e̶n̶c̶e̶.̶ ̶r̶a̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶e̶c̶o̶n̶s̶t̶r̶u̶c̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶a̶l̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶d̶e̶t̶e̶c̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶e̶l̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶a̶r̶y̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶p̶e̶r̶t̶i̶e̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶n̶e̶s̶,̶ ̶e̶d̶g̶e̶s̶,̶ ̶m̶o̶t̶i̶o̶n̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶l̶o̶r̶.̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶d̶o̶w̶n̶s̶t̶r̶e̶a̶m̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶a̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶v̶o̶l̶v̶e̶d̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶r̶e̶c̶o̶n̶s̶t̶r̶u̶c̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶c̶e̶n̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶e̶x̶p̶e̶r̶i̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶c̶o̶n̶s̶t̶r̶u̶c̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶p̶e̶r̶t̶i̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶d̶e̶t̶e̶c̶t̶s̶.̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶ ̶u̶n̶d̶i̶s̶t̶o̶r̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶t̶i̶n̶a̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶e̶y̶e̶.̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶v̶a̶r̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶g̶e̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶h̶i̶g̶h̶l̶y̶ ̶w̶a̶r̶p̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶t̶o̶r̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶m̶a̶p̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶t̶i̶n̶a̶.̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶h̶i̶g̶h̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶g̶e̶s̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶m̶a̶p̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶.̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶h̶i̶g̶h̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶g̶e̶s̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶v̶o̶l̶v̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶i̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶c̶o̶g̶n̶i̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶o̶w̶e̶r̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶g̶e̶s̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶m̶e̶c̶h̶a̶n̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶t̶r̶o̶l̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶f̶o̶c̶u̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶e̶y̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶v̶e̶r̶g̶e̶n̶c̶e̶.̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶f̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶t̶i̶f̶a̶c̶t̶s̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶o̶w̶n̶s̶t̶r̶e̶a̶m̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶g̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶i̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶c̶e̶n̶e̶.̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶e̶x̶a̶m̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶e̶d̶g̶e̶ ̶e̶n̶h̶a̶n̶c̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶h̶a̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶e̶f̶f̶e̶c̶t̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶g̶e̶n̶e̶r̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶v̶1̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶e̶x̶p̶e̶r̶i̶e̶n̶c̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶c̶e̶n̶e̶.̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶a̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶v̶1̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶ ̶e̶q̶u̶i̶v̶a̶l̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶b̶l̶a̶c̶k̶e̶d̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶a̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶a̶p̶p̶e̶a̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶c̶e̶n̶e̶.̶ ̶s̶i̶m̶i̶l̶a̶r̶l̶y̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶l̶o̶r̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶a̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶l̶o̶r̶ ̶e̶x̶p̶e̶r̶i̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶i̶m̶p̶a̶i̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶l̶e̶t̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶m̶i̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶.̶ ̶s̶o̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶c̶r̶e̶a̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶c̶e̶n̶e̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶d̶s̶ ̶m̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶t̶a̶c̶t̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶g̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶a̶m̶e̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶.̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶c̶e̶n̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶k̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶l̶a̶y̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶a̶s̶.̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶a̶t̶a̶ ̶a̶v̶a̶i̶l̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶s̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶g̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶h̶i̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶c̶e̶n̶e̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶l̶o̶o̶k̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶.̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶d̶a̶t̶a̶ ̶m̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶p̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶d̶.̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶l̶o̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶r̶e̶i̶n̶t̶e̶g̶r̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶a̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶u̶l̶t̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶i̶n̶g̶l̶y̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶f̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶c̶e̶n̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶e̶x̶p̶e̶r̶i̶e̶n̶c̶e̶.̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶g̶a̶p̶.̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶m̶o̶n̶i̶t̶o̶r̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶a̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶r̶e̶a̶t̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶c̶e̶n̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶s̶e̶l̶f̶.̶ ̶i̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶s̶t̶r̶u̶c̶t̶i̶v̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶p̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶m̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶l̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶a̶s̶p̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶s̶t̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶f̶u̶r̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶g̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶m̶o̶n̶i̶t̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶g̶e̶n̶e̶r̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶c̶e̶n̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶c̶e̶i̶v̶e̶s̶.̶ ̶
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̶i̶ ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶d̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶m̶e̶n̶t̶i̶o̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶b̶i̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶u̶l̶t̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶v̶a̶r̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶a̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶y̶s̶t̶e̶m̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶c̶r̶e̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶i̶n̶g̶l̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶c̶e̶n̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶c̶a̶l̶l̶e̶d̶ ̶b̶i̶n̶d̶i̶n̶g̶.̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶a̶c̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶s̶ ̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶m̶p̶l̶i̶s̶h̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶c̶a̶l̶l̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶n̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶b̶l̶e̶m̶.̶ ̶i̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶n̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶m̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶f̶o̶u̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶l̶o̶c̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶c̶e̶p̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶k̶i̶n̶d̶.̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶d̶a̶y̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶n̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶f̶o̶u̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶u̶n̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶u̶r̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶f̶u̶n̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶a̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶c̶o̶v̶e̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶l̶l̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶s̶p̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶a̶i̶n̶.̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶ ̶h̶o̶l̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶n̶e̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶i̶s̶,̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶b̶r̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶i̶v̶i̶t̶y̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶e̶x̶p̶e̶r̶i̶e̶n̶c̶e̶.̶ ̶
̶
̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶o̶t̶t̶o̶m̶ ̶l̶i̶n̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶m̶i̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶n̶e̶u̶r̶a̶l̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶i̶z̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶e̶x̶p̶e̶r̶i̶e̶n̶c̶e̶.̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶h̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶b̶l̶e̶m̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶n̶e̶s̶s̶.̶
consciousness -(eyes;)your vision)\\\\ the room (scene)
they are separate. You are separated from what you see, there is a gap, empty space between you, and what you see. Always. All the time.

- just like EXPERIENCE is separated from your consciousness.
Consciousness \ Experience

(you're in the middle and prior to ANYTHING you interact to and possibly have an experience)

never forget it Steve. It's of no use repeating phrases and trying to use shitty subconscious programming technique (through repetition) on a skeptic forum. you dullard.
:paladin:

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:55 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:51 am
I would be interested Steve, given the model of the inter mind which you have come up with, are there any testable predictions you could make based on the structure of your model? Does it say anything about what we currently know of the brain, or could you posit a hypothesis based on anything your model postulates? If not, what exactly do you want from people here, or the wider neuroscientific community in general? Is it simply to acknowledge that there is a phenomena which needs explaining, I.e. what is consciousness and how does the brain do it?

Based on the criticisms you have read in the now thousands of comments in these two threads regarding your inter mind, is there anything you think needs to be changed, any statements which on second thought are probably unjustified? Imagine yourself as someone else examining your work here, what do you imagine they might suggest?

My opinion:

1. Drop the talk about consciousness guiding evolution, it is clear now that consciousness does not play a role in any directing of evolution.

2. Find a different way to talk about your concepts which is more in line with the field you are examining. Use neuroscientific terms where they exist. If they don’t, look to psychology. If that fails, philosophy is necessary, but chances are there already exist terms which cover the concepts you are exploring.

3. Show your references. If you want people to take you seriously they need to see you have read the literature and aren’t just spitballing ideas but really understand the field you are describing and delving into. Find ways to tie those references into your work to support your ideas.

4. During your reviewing of the literature, ensure you keep a clear distinction between your ideas and the established knowledge on the subject.

5. Back up your claims with evidence, even if it is from philosophers with similar opinions, but you need something to support your claims. People need to see how you came to your conclusions.

6. Drop anything and all woo related, this means no references to the soul, religion, quantum consciousness, telekinesis/telepathy/stranger things inspired seti communication, esp. you know what I mean. Any attempt at sneaking this in destroys your credibility. You will gain nothing by including this beyond ridicule.

7. Ensure there are no logical inconsistencies within your work, and where they exist, address them.

8. Take on board criticism and use it to improve your work.

I hope you heed this and reflect on it.
Dimebag: Yes, all I really want is for the Scientific community to acknowledge that there really is a Phenomenon that they are completely unable to explain. The Physicalists on this forum claim that Consciousness is all already Explained, but they are unable to present an Explanation. Some actually just snidely say it's all an Illusion. There was always a kind of arrogant pompousness to the so called Explanations that they do throw out there. They stifle any actual research or thinking about Consciousness. Remember they say there is no Hard Problem or Explanatory Gap so why bother with this? It's all in the Neurons and that's good enough for them. It's not good enough for me.

When I say that Consciousness Guides Evolution you have to remember the context that that I say that in. If you see what I say I specifically say that the Conscious Experience of Pain can increase Survival Rates for Organisms that have Pain. If Pain can increase Survival Rates it seems to me that Pain, a Conscious Experience, is Guiding Evolution to move in a certain direction. It is the Physicalists on this forum that try to put the Woo in this idea. I think it is as appropriate to say, Pain Guides Evolution, as it is to say, the Tracks Guide the Train. The Physicalists are obsessing over the Semantics of this. You can not say that the Conscious Experience of Pain, think about Pain itself, does not affect Evolutionary outcomes. How could the Life we have today on this planet even exist without Pain? All we would end up with is some kind of Painless Plant Life. And that's just Conscious Pain. We can make similar arguments for the Conscious Pleasures. How about something like simple Hunger? This too is a Conscious Experience.

My basic argument is linked to understanding that we perceive Light in an unexpected way. Do you understand how the Light that you See in your Conscious Mind is a Surrogate for the Electromagnetic Light in the Physical World. You don't See the Electromagnetic Light you See the Conscious Light that is inside your Mind. So what is that Conscious Light? That is my question. This Phenomenon of the internal Conscious Light is the pivotal concept of the Inter Mind website. This Conscious Light is a self evident fact of our existence. It is inside our Minds and is part of what we are. So implied in this is that we each have our own internal Conscious Light and we therefore actually are that Light. If this is religious or bordering on a Soul concept then I think it's just a coincidence. I don't find anything in Religion that talks about this Surrogate Internal Conscious Light that I have described. I think that Conscious Light is a real Phenomenon that can and will be understood by Science someday.

I have in fact updated the Inter Mind website many times over the almost 2 years that I have been on this forum. For example I updated the more Speculative sections to clearly emphasize the Speculative nature of those sections.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:16 am

.........but he is just spitballing. and the above expression leaves out the worst of what he has posted. I'd say "Just Look"....but.......no. Don't.

Pain guides evolution. Ok. So what?
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:48 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:16 am
.........but he is just spitballing. and the above expression leaves out the worst of what he has posted. I'd say "Just Look"....but.......no. Don't.

Pain guides evolution. Ok. So what?
It's the fact that Pain is a Conscious Phenomenon that has no Scientific Explanation. Science can't Explain it so no big deal?

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by landrew » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:51 am

Pain is an electrochemical signal that fires on pain-receptor neurons in the brain. Purely physical and biological. Completely irrelevant to consciousness.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:59 am

I know you aren't conscious about supporting your comments..........but pain too?

My electrochemical signals are firing there is yet a trifecta to observe......................
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:17 am

SteveKlinko wrote: It's the fact that Pain is a Conscious Phenomenon that has no Scientific Explanation. Science can't Explain it so no big deal?
Science understands the evolution of the Central Nervous System and the resulting conscious knowledge of "pain", "tastes salty" and "I'm hungry"

You are the anti science person who claims a magical conscious creature existed outside of the initial singularity and caused the "Big Bang" without a scrap of evidence.
SteveKlinko wrote:We can, for example, speculate that Consciousness might have existed prior to the Big Bang and might have even been the cause of the Big Bang. The Universe might have been created by Consciousness and for Consciousness.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:31 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:48 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:16 am
Pain guides evolution. Ok. So what?
It's the fact that Pain is a Conscious Phenomenon that has no Scientific Explanation. Science can't Explain it so no big deal?
But I've seen Matt's and others explain what science DOES KNOW and you just keep refusing to accept it. Science can and does explain much of consciousness.......there is always the unknown that makes science fun. ITS YOU.......you can't "accept" the Science.

What is it about Pain as a Conscious Pehnomenon that you think Science hasn't explained? ......... I'm getting a feeling its related to the "Intermind"? Ha, ha........lets hear it. For as Science can't explain Consciousness..........you can't explain the Intermind. See any parallels?

(((Yeah....I switched horses there. pros and cons to all we do.)))
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:00 pm

Neuroscientists close in on the brain signature for consciousness
https://newatlas.com/brain-scan-neural- ... ead%20more
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dimebag » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:21 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:00 pm
Neuroscientists close in on the brain signature for consciousness
https://newatlas.com/brain-scan-neural- ... ead%20more
That’s good. At least there might be an inkling of what to focus on when trying to explain consciousness. The idea of long distance complex signals has been proposed as a possible site for consciousness to be occurring from. The next step would be to find out what exactly the communications are, complexity entails structure. Are the signals purely stochastic or is there information encoded within them?

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:41 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:51 am
Pain is an electrochemical signal that fires on pain-receptor neurons in the brain. Purely physical and biological. Completely irrelevant to consciousness.
Are you serious? It's just physical and biological? You should think more Deeply about the Conscious experience of Pain. The Pain, in and of itself, as you know it in your Conscious Mind.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:53 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:31 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:48 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:16 am
Pain guides evolution. Ok. So what?
It's the fact that Pain is a Conscious Phenomenon that has no Scientific Explanation. Science can't Explain it so no big deal?
But I've seen Matt's and others explain what science DOES KNOW and you just keep refusing to accept it. Science can and does explain much of consciousness.......there is always the unknown that makes science fun. ITS YOU.......you can't "accept" the Science.

What is it about Pain as a Conscious Pehnomenon that you think Science hasn't explained? ......... I'm getting a feeling its related to the "Intermind"? Ha, ha........lets hear it. For as Science can't explain Consciousness..........you can't explain the Intermind. See any parallels?

(((Yeah....I switched horses there. pros and cons to all we do.)))
With replies like this I think you really do not understand the Conscious Pain experience that happens in your own Mind. When you can understand Pain as a thing in itself then you will understand what Science does not know about it. You will find that Science in fact knows nothing about the Experience itself. Science knows about Neurons firing but cannot even begin to Explain how Neurons firing results in a Conscious Experience of Pain in the Mind. This is the Hard Problem of Consciousness. Think more Deeply about Pain as a Conscious Experience. It is a Phenomenon that occurs only in the Mind. This is true for all the other Conscious Phenomena that you can think of. The Redness of Red is my favorite example.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:07 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:00 pm
Neuroscientists close in on the brain signature for consciousness
https://newatlas.com/brain-scan-neural- ... ead%20more
Do you realize that this article is strictly talking about the Neural Correlates of Consciousness. It sheds no light on the Conscious Experience of things like Pain or the Experience of the Redness of Red. No closer to understanding these things. Like it says they are trying to find Signatures of Consciousness, and not Consciousness itself. This will be a good diagnostic tool.

The analogy for the Experience of Red is that Science can measure the Neurons that fire for Red and can say that the patient is Experiencing Redness somewhere in their field of view. But they cannot Explain what that Redness Experience is, as a thing in itself. It is all just Neural Correlates of Consciousness. It's the Redness itself that is the Quest. What is that? It is the Pain itself that is the Quest. What is that?

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by landrew » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:19 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:41 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:51 am
Pain is an electrochemical signal that fires on pain-receptor neurons in the brain. Purely physical and biological. Completely irrelevant to consciousness.
Are you serious? It's just physical and biological? You should think more Deeply about the Conscious experience of Pain. The Pain, in and of itself, as you know it in your Conscious Mind.
Yes, just a signal, generated by the body to indicate a problem, so that the brain can react to it. Not a component of consciousness.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:40 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:17 am
SteveKlinko wrote: It's the fact that Pain is a Conscious Phenomenon that has no Scientific Explanation. Science can't Explain it so no big deal?
Science understands the evolution of the Central Nervous System and the resulting conscious knowledge of "pain", "tastes salty" and "I'm hungry"

You are the anti science person who claims a magical conscious creature existed outside of the initial singularity and caused the "Big Bang" without a scrap of evidence.
SteveKlinko wrote:We can, for example, speculate that Consciousness might have existed prior to the Big Bang and might have even been the cause of the Big Bang. The Universe might have been created by Consciousness and for Consciousness.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I specifically say "We can Speculate". What is it that you don't understand about the word Speculate? By definition a Speculation is a thought, or a pondering often given without evidence. When you ask for Evidence you are showing your lack of understanding of the word Speculate. That particular section of the Inter Mind that you like to quote from, "The Primacy of Consciousness", is dedicated to promoting the importance of Consciousness as opposed to the usual Physicalist approach which tries to minimize Consciousness as some kind of unimportant secondary effect or even an Illusion. The section is clearly a cheerleading session for Consciousness and many Speculations are suggested. But Speculations are all that we have when it comes to Consciousness. If you continue to ridicule Speculations then you are ridiculing the only attempts at understanding Consciousness that exist.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:43 pm

landrew wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:41 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:51 am
Pain is an electrochemical signal that fires on pain-receptor neurons in the brain. Purely physical and biological. Completely irrelevant to consciousness.
Are you serious? It's just physical and biological? You should think more Deeply about the Conscious experience of Pain. The Pain, in and of itself, as you know it in your Conscious Mind.
Yes, just a signal, generated by the body to indicate a problem, so that the brain can react to it. Not a component of consciousness.
It's actually fascinating that you are unable to distinguish a separate Pain Experience Phenomenon from the Neural Signal Phenomenon.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by landrew » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:40 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:43 pm
landrew wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:41 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:51 am
Pain is an electrochemical signal that fires on pain-receptor neurons in the brain. Purely physical and biological. Completely irrelevant to consciousness.
Are you serious? It's just physical and biological? You should think more Deeply about the Conscious experience of Pain. The Pain, in and of itself, as you know it in your Conscious Mind.
Yes, just a signal, generated by the body to indicate a problem, so that the brain can react to it. Not a component of consciousness.
It's actually fascinating that you are unable to distinguish a separate Pain Experience Phenomenon from the Neural Signal Phenomenon.
When you burn your hand on a stove, your hand pulls away without any "conscious experience" whatsoever. "Pain Experience Phenomenon" and "Neural Signal Phenomenon" are concocted phrases, not scientifically demonstrated phenomena. "Pain response" is the correct scientific term.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:43 pm

landrew wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:40 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:43 pm
landrew wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:41 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:51 am
Pain is an electrochemical signal that fires on pain-receptor neurons in the brain. Purely physical and biological. Completely irrelevant to consciousness.
Are you serious? It's just physical and biological? You should think more Deeply about the Conscious experience of Pain. The Pain, in and of itself, as you know it in your Conscious Mind.
Yes, just a signal, generated by the body to indicate a problem, so that the brain can react to it. Not a component of consciousness.
It's actually fascinating that you are unable to distinguish a separate Pain Experience Phenomenon from the Neural Signal Phenomenon.
When you burn your hand on a stove, your hand pulls away without any "conscious experience" whatsoever. "Pain Experience Phenomenon" and "Neural Signal Phenomenon" are concocted phrases, not scientifically demonstrated phenomena. "Pain response" is the correct scientific term.
But within a fraction of a second you Experience the actual Pain. It is the actual Pain Experience that will teach an Animal or Organism not to touch the hot object the next time. If all there was, was the reflex, then there would be little motivation not to touch the hot object again and again until there was serious damage. There is certainly something more to Pain then the mere Neural signal. Think about the Pain Experience in and of itself.

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landrew
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by landrew » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:03 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:43 pm
landrew wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:40 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:43 pm
landrew wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:41 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:51 am
Pain is an electrochemical signal that fires on pain-receptor neurons in the brain. Purely physical and biological. Completely irrelevant to consciousness.
Are you serious? It's just physical and biological? You should think more Deeply about the Conscious experience of Pain. The Pain, in and of itself, as you know it in your Conscious Mind.
Yes, just a signal, generated by the body to indicate a problem, so that the brain can react to it. Not a component of consciousness.
It's actually fascinating that you are unable to distinguish a separate Pain Experience Phenomenon from the Neural Signal Phenomenon.
When you burn your hand on a stove, your hand pulls away without any "conscious experience" whatsoever. "Pain Experience Phenomenon" and "Neural Signal Phenomenon" are concocted phrases, not scientifically demonstrated phenomena. "Pain response" is the correct scientific term.
But within a fraction of a second you Experience the actual Pain. It is the actual Pain Experience that will teach an Animal or Organism not to touch the hot object the next time. If all there was, was the reflex, then there would be little motivation not to touch the hot object again and again until there was serious damage. There is certainly something more to Pain then the mere Neural signal. Think about the Pain Experience in and of itself.
Long before your brain learns anything, the pain response causes you to withdraw from a hot stove. Most organisms will do that, and most of them have no consciousness in spite of what you imagine. Being conscious of a threat which could burn you need not involve pain at all. We can become aware that excessive heat can lead to burns. I don't recall being burned by a stove before I learned not to touch it.

We don't always need pain to learn something. Pain is a sensory signal, which along with our other sensory data informs our brains of our surroundings and builds a conscious awareness. People who are born without the ability to feel pain can eventually be taught to lead a fairly normal life, once they mature enough to know they can't gnaw their own fingers off.
Pain is not required for consciousness.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

Matthew Ellard
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:44 am

SteveKlinko wrote: Are you serious? It's just physical and biological?
Yes Steve Klinko. DNA can only carry physical and biological attributes. All life on Earth reproduces using DNA.

This means your magical religion and paranormal dimensions are not evolved as you claim and do not exist.

You keep running away when we point this out to you. You then wait a week and make exactly the same debunked claim.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Matthew Ellard
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:48 am

SteveKlinko" wrote: It is the actual Pain Experience that will teach an Animal or Organism not to touch the hot object the next time. If all there was, was the reflex, then there would be little motivation not to touch the hot object again and again until there was serious damage.
You complete idiot!!! If there is an evolved reflex to move away from a particular activity, that means there is already an evolved recognition that it is dangerous.

You refuse to read any books on evolution and this is why you keep repeating the same debunked religious rubbish over and over again. You are unable to set out any evolutionary mechanism for your hilarious religious claims.

Matthew Ellard
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:53 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:You are the anti science person who claims a magical conscious creature existed outside of the initial singularity and caused the "Big Bang" without a scrap of evidence.
SteveKlinko wrote:I specifically say "We can Speculate". What is it that you don't understand about the word Speculate?
"Speculate" means considering alternative hypotheses for an observed phenomena. Your religious fairy tale, that a magical "god" consciousness existed outside of the initial singularity is simply a religious fairy tale that doesn't match any observed phenomena.

You may as well say a "leprechaun existed outside of the Big Bang and made all rainbows" :lol:
Leprechaun 1.jpg
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