The Inter Mind

What you think about how you think.
Matthew Ellard
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:59 am

SteveKlinko wrote:Are you seriously asking me to provide the exact chain of Evolutionary steps that led to the first experience of Pain?
No. I am asking you how a creature experiencing pain will evolve one way or the other. The creature already has the required genes to feel pain ......to feel pain in the first place.

Secondly, as you claim there is an evolved consciousness in another non-physical dimension, and non-physical things can't feel pain, you already contradicted your own claim. that "it needs to feel pain to evolve". How do you claim this non-physical consciousness in another dimension evolves? :lol: :lol:

Your "Inter mind" religious claim is both contradictory and doesn't make any sense, whereas the normal scientific understanding of evolution in normal physics is already known and established.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Poodle » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:01 am

Why do you always attempt to pass the buck, Steve? This stuff is all your baby. Defend it logically or give it up. It's simple, really. What I'm constantly saying is that YOU are constantly making claims which you cannot substantiate. They may be interesting, but your constant habit of moving swiftly from suggestion to angry defence is telling.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by landrew » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:29 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:23 pm

Are you seriously asking me to provide the exact chain of Evolutionary steps that led to the first experience of Pain? This is a disingenuous Diversion from the point of the original statement that the Pain experience probably gave early Animals and Organisms a survival advantage with the effect that the Conscious experience of Pain affected Evolutionary outcomes. The issue of how and when Pain Evolved is another topic. The answer to your question is nobody knows.
Nobody knows but it would be logical to assume that it appeared when brains became capable of learned behaviors in response to pain stimuli. I'm guessing it's somewhere between a lizard and a shrew. A mollusk, or even a fish may learn to avoid an electric shock, but it's not clear that it needs to feel pain to do it.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:38 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:59 am
SteveKlinko wrote:Are you seriously asking me to provide the exact chain of Evolutionary steps that led to the first experience of Pain?
No. I am asking you how a creature experiencing pain will evolve one way or the other. The creature already has the required genes to feel pain ......to feel pain in the first place.

Secondly, as you claim there is an evolved consciousness in another non-physical dimension, and non-physical things can't feel pain, you already contradicted your own claim. that "it needs to feel pain to evolve". How do you claim this non-physical consciousness in another dimension evolves? :lol: :lol:

Your "Inter mind" religious claim is both contradictory and doesn't make any sense, whereas the normal scientific understanding of evolution in normal physics is already known and established.
I have told you a hundred times. It' in the original statement itself. What is the purpose of Pain? I say Pain will give an Organism or Animal an increase in their Survival rate. Increased Survival Rate will let more of these Animals Survive. So the Point is simply that Pain, a Conscious Experience, can affect Survival Rates. Something that affects Survival Rates certainly will affect Evolution. No Pain, then expect different kinds of Evolutionary outcomes. This is purely a thought experiment. If you deny that Pain does influence Evolutionary outcomes then that's ok too. I think most people would see the Logic in what I am saying. At the same time I think most people would agree that it is Illogical to think that Pain did not affect Evolutionary outcomes.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:21 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:I say Pain will give an Organism or Animal an increase in their Survival rate.
You are an idiot. If a predator feels "more" pain fighting a prey, that would be an adaptive disadvantage as the predator would not hunt that prey. A creature has to already have the appropriate pain gene to feel pain in the first place.

You keep avoiding answering my simple question. How doe a creature feeling pain, evolve one way or another, as it already has the "pain" gene?
SteveKlinko wrote:. I think most people would see the Logic in what I am saying.
No one agrees with you. Everyone here knows that species evolve to adapt to their environment and not their own internal existing physiology. You are just too stupid and ignorant to read how evolution actually works.
Evolution for dummies.jpg
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by landrew » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:42 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:21 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:I say Pain will give an Organism or Animal an increase in their Survival rate.
That makes no sense. If the pain hasn't caused the animal to learn a new behavior that enhances its survival, it serves no purpose. Cancer causes pain, but it has nothing to do with survival. Mice will flee a burning haystack, but when they see a potential predator, they run back into the flames and are consumed, at least that's what I observed. I'm not sure how the feeling of pain helped them to survive in that situation.
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dimebag » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:01 am

What Matt seems to be saying is, pain dependent behaviour is what continues to aid evolution of a species. Steve is leaving out the behaviour aspect and is focusing on the pain experience itself.

What I would like to know is, is pain dependent behaviour contingent on conscious experience of pain? Or can pain dependent behaviour be triggered without conscious awareness of pain? If not, then would you not have to include conscious recognition of pain within the necessary causal chain required for automatic pain dependent behaviour (e.g. withdrawing a hand from intense heat).

I have a feeling this kind of pain reflex might be actioned preconsciously, with conscious recognition occurring after the specific reflex has been initiated.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:44 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:21 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:I say Pain will give an Organism or Animal an increase in their Survival rate.
You are an idiot. If a predator feels "more" pain fighting a prey, that would be an adaptive disadvantage as the predator would not hunt that prey. A creature has to already have the appropriate pain gene to feel pain in the first place.

You keep avoiding answering my simple question. How doe a creature feeling pain, evolve one way or another, as it already has the "pain" gene?
SteveKlinko wrote:. I think most people would see the Logic in what I am saying.
No one agrees with you. Everyone here knows that species evolve to adapt to their environment and not their own internal existing physiology. You are just too stupid and ignorant to read how evolution actually works.
Evolution for dummies.jpg
You just gave an example of how Pain can affect things. If a Predator feels more Pain it will be a disadvantage for it. If this Predator feels enough Pain while hunting it may stop hunting, and maybe it would start eating more vegetation. This creature would certainly, after many hundreds of generations, Evolve differently than if it continued being a Predator. You have just admitted that the experience of Pain can affect Evolutionary outcomes. Very Good.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:47 am

Dimebag wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:01 am
What Matt seems to be saying is, pain dependent behaviour is what continues to aid evolution of a species. Steve is leaving out the behaviour aspect and is focusing on the pain experience itself.

What I would like to know is, is pain dependent behaviour contingent on conscious experience of pain? Or can pain dependent behaviour be triggered without conscious awareness of pain? If not, then would you not have to include conscious recognition of pain within the necessary causal chain required for automatic pain dependent behaviour (e.g. withdrawing a hand from intense heat).

I have a feeling this kind of pain reflex might be actioned preconsciously, with conscious recognition occurring after the specific reflex has been initiated.
There is no Pain dependent behavior without the actual experience of Pain.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by landrew » Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:31 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:44 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:21 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:I say Pain will give an Organism or Animal an increase in their Survival rate.
You are an idiot. If a predator feels "more" pain fighting a prey, that would be an adaptive disadvantage as the predator would not hunt that prey. A creature has to already have the appropriate pain gene to feel pain in the first place.

You keep avoiding answering my simple question. How doe a creature feeling pain, evolve one way or another, as it already has the "pain" gene?
SteveKlinko wrote:. I think most people would see the Logic in what I am saying.
No one agrees with you. Everyone here knows that species evolve to adapt to their environment and not their own internal existing physiology. You are just too stupid and ignorant to read how evolution actually works.
Evolution for dummies.jpg
You just gave an example of how Pain can affect things. If a Predator feels more Pain it will be a disadvantage for it. If this Predator feels enough Pain while hunting it may stop hunting, and maybe it would start eating more vegetation. This creature would certainly, after many hundreds of generations, Evolve differently than if it continued being a Predator. You have just admitted that the experience of Pain can affect Evolutionary outcomes. Very Good.
Steve. Pain is only one of many stimuli that teach the brain how to learn. You talk as though it's the only one. Hormones and neurotransmitters such as:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog ... -happiness

...work on the other side of the coin, rewarding us for making choices that normally teach us behaviors beneficial to survival. It goes without saying that artificial stimulants can harm us by forming addictions and bad habits. It also goes without saying that the simpler the organism, the fewer neurochemicals are involved, as well as pain itself. I see no evidence that simpler organisms feel anything resembling pain.
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:17 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: You just gave an example of how Pain can affect things.
For that individual who already has evolved pain. It does not effect the evolution of the species.

Here is your religious claim.
SteveKlinko wrote: t would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience.
That has nothing to do with evolution. Explain to me how a creature experiencing pain will "be guided" evolve one way or the other. Show me each step in the your proposed evolutionary mechanism. You can't, can you, because it is religious crap.

Evolution adapts to the environment. A species does not evolve due to characteristics it has already evolved.
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by landrew » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:19 am

Evolution is not guided. There is no plan; no designer, and evolution often takes dead-end turns. Here is an example: Some species become parthogenic, where the male of the species completely disappears. There is a short-term advantage in terms of reproductivity, producing large numbers of clones, but it comes at the expense of genetic diversity, and the species is likely to go extinct as a result.

Another example is the way humans are still transitioning to a fully bipedal stance after several million years of evolution. We have a variety of back and leg problems which other bipedal organisms do not have. As Richard Dawkins termed it, evolution is a blind watchmaker. Everything proceeds by feel, without any pre-planning whatsoever. Evolution is entirely a RESULT of natural selection. Intent is absent from the process.

Edited: to credit the correct author of The Blind Watchmaker.
Last edited by landrew on Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Poodle » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:24 am

Richard Dawkins?

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:34 am

SteveKlinko wrote:. If this Predator feels enough Pain while hunting it may stop hunting, and maybe it would start eating more vegetation. This creature would certainly, after many hundreds of generations, Evolve differently than if it continued being a Predator.
I can't stop laughing. :lol: :lol: :lol:

How is this creature introducing new specific genes and passing them down, by choosing to eat more vegetation?

You really don't have any idea what evolution is, do you?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:28 pm

landrew wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:31 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:44 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:21 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:I say Pain will give an Organism or Animal an increase in their Survival rate.
You are an idiot. If a predator feels "more" pain fighting a prey, that would be an adaptive disadvantage as the predator would not hunt that prey. A creature has to already have the appropriate pain gene to feel pain in the first place.

You keep avoiding answering my simple question. How doe a creature feeling pain, evolve one way or another, as it already has the "pain" gene?
SteveKlinko wrote:. I think most people would see the Logic in what I am saying.
No one agrees with you. Everyone here knows that species evolve to adapt to their environment and not their own internal existing physiology. You are just too stupid and ignorant to read how evolution actually works.
Evolution for dummies.jpg
You just gave an example of how Pain can affect things. If a Predator feels more Pain it will be a disadvantage for it. If this Predator feels enough Pain while hunting it may stop hunting, and maybe it would start eating more vegetation. This creature would certainly, after many hundreds of generations, Evolve differently than if it continued being a Predator. You have just admitted that the experience of Pain can affect Evolutionary outcomes. Very Good.
Steve. Pain is only one of many stimuli that teach the brain how to learn. You talk as though it's the only one. Hormones and neurotransmitters such as:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog ... -happiness

...work on the other side of the coin, rewarding us for making choices that normally teach us behaviors beneficial to survival. It goes without saying that artificial stimulants can harm us by forming addictions and bad habits. It also goes without saying that the simpler the organism, the fewer neurochemicals are involved, as well as pain itself. I see no evidence that simpler organisms feel anything resembling pain.
We talk about all the Conscious Sensory experiences on this thread. We just happen to be talking about Pain now.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:34 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:17 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: You just gave an example of how Pain can affect things.
For that individual who already has evolved pain. It does not effect the evolution of the species.

Here is your religious claim.
SteveKlinko wrote: t would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience.
That has nothing to do with evolution. Explain to me how a creature experiencing pain will "be guided" evolve one way or the other. Show me each step in the your proposed evolutionary mechanism. You can't, can you, because it is religious crap.

Evolution adapts to the environment. A species does not evolve due to characteristics it has already evolved. Evolution for dummies.jpg
If you take the Pain away from that individual, that has Pain, what would happen to him? His survival rate would no doubt go down and that would most likely affect his Evolutionary future. So having Pain is performing the function of keeping that individual a viable and survivable species. The Conscious Experience of Pain is affecting his evolutionary future.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:41 pm

landrew wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:19 am
Evolution is not guided. There is no plan; no designer, and evolution often takes dead-end turns. Here is an example: Some species become parthogenic, where the male of the species completely disappears. There is a short-term advantage in terms of reproductivity, producing large numbers of clones, but it comes at the expense of genetic diversity, and the species is likely to go extinct as a result.

Another example is the way humans are still transitioning to a fully bipedal stance after several million years of evolution. We have a variety of back and leg problems which other bipedal organisms do not have. As Richard Dawkins termed it, evolution is a blind watchmaker. Everything proceeds by feel, without any pre-planning whatsoever. Evolution is entirely a RESULT of natural selection. Intent is absent from the process.

Edited: to credit the correct author of The Blind Watchmaker.
Pain is not part of a plan. It is just a Conscious Experience that we inexplicably have. Pain plays right into Natural Selection by creating higher survival Rates for species that have Pain. The reason why there is so much Pain and suffering in the World is because of the ultimate survival advantage that Pain provides.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:34 am
SteveKlinko wrote:. If this Predator feels enough Pain while hunting it may stop hunting, and maybe it would start eating more vegetation. This creature would certainly, after many hundreds of generations, Evolve differently than if it continued being a Predator.
I can't stop laughing. :lol: :lol: :lol:

How is this creature introducing new specific genes and passing them down, by choosing to eat more vegetation?

You really don't have any idea what evolution is, do you?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
You don't have any clue about what I just said. Read it again and think a little Deeper about the process of Evolution.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Poodle » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:03 pm

Think a little deeper - your constant, but meaningless, advice. What you said was that a predator could simply decide to eat more grass and leaves. Most carnivores, who don't have your reasoning powers, would be incapable of conceiving of such an action, let alone suddenly developing the digestive system which would allow them to do it.
Research a little more deeply, Steve - it will help your thinking enormously.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:13 pm

Poodle wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:03 pm
Think a little deeper - your constant, but meaningless, advice. What you said was that a predator could simply decide to eat more grass and leaves. Most carnivores, who don't have your reasoning powers, would be incapable of conceiving of such an action, let alone suddenly developing the digestive system which would allow them to do it.
Research a little more deeply, Steve - it will help your thinking enormously.
Here's what I said:

If a Predator feels more Pain it will be a disadvantage for it. If this Predator feels enough Pain while hunting it may stop hunting, and maybe it would start eating more vegetation. This creature would certainly, after many hundreds of generations, Evolve differently than if it continued being a Predator.

The details of what happens with Evolution are not the issue here. The point was that the Conscious experience of Pain most certainly is a Big Factor in Evolution.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by landrew » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:13 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 pm
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:34 am
SteveKlinko wrote:. If this Predator feels enough Pain while hunting it may stop hunting, and maybe it would start eating more vegetation. This creature would certainly, after many hundreds of generations, Evolve differently than if it continued being a Predator.
I can't stop laughing. :lol: :lol: :lol:

How is this creature introducing new specific genes and passing them down, by choosing to eat more vegetation?

You really don't have any idea what evolution is, do you?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
You don't have any clue about what I just said. Read it again and think a little Deeper about the process of Evolution.
Second opinion here. I've read it and I think you're having a tough time unlinking evolution from mental ideation. There is no consciousness, sensory experience or conscious intent in evolution. It's a simple process of natural selection of beneficial genes by removal of less useful genes from the genepool. Thought processes have no effect on the direction of evolution, not even the experience of pain. Nothing. Nada.
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:23 pm

It's actually kind of entertaining listening to you Physicalists try to argue that the Experience of Pain has never had any influence on Evolution. I would go so far as to say the World of Organisms and Animals that we have on this Planet might not even exist without the experience of Pain. The Earth would certainly be a different place without Pain. Maybe all there would be is Vegetation, assuming that Plant life does not have Pain.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:26 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:13 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 pm
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:34 am
SteveKlinko wrote:. If this Predator feels enough Pain while hunting it may stop hunting, and maybe it would start eating more vegetation. This creature would certainly, after many hundreds of generations, Evolve differently than if it continued being a Predator.
I can't stop laughing. :lol: :lol: :lol:

How is this creature introducing new specific genes and passing them down, by choosing to eat more vegetation?

You really don't have any idea what evolution is, do you?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
You don't have any clue about what I just said. Read it again and think a little Deeper about the process of Evolution.
Second opinion here. I've read it and I think you're having a tough time unlinking evolution from mental ideation. There is no consciousness, sensory experience or conscious intent in evolution. It's a simple process of natural selection of beneficial genes by removal of less useful genes from the genepool. Thought processes have no effect on the direction of evolution, not even the experience of pain. Nothing. Nada.
But you are reading more into what I said. I make no Claim of Conscious Intent. I simply say that the mere experience of Pain can increase Survival Rates of Organisms or Animals.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Poodle » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:37 pm

Well, Steve, if that's what you simply said, would you simply provide the evidence for your assertion? Or do you actually mean that it is your preferred theory?

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:50 pm

Poodle wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:37 pm
Well, Steve, if that's what you simply said, would you simply provide the evidence for your assertion? Or do you actually mean that it is your preferred theory?
The evidence is staring you in the face. Why is there so much Pain on this Planet? It's because Pain was absolutely necessary in order to Evolve the type of creatures we have on the Earth. Do you think that the Evolution of Species on the Earth would be the same without Pain? Do you think that Pain plays no part in Evolutionary outcomes? No one is smart enough to predict what the Life on the Earth would be like without Pain. It would probably only be Plant Life if we assume that Plants don't have Pain.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by landrew » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:20 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:26 pm

But you are reading more into what I said. I make no Claim of Conscious Intent. I simply say that the mere experience of Pain can increase Survival Rates of Organisms or Animals.
Only when it's working properly to enhance the learning experiences of higher organisms. Lower organisms have no need of pain.

Why does any more need to be said, and why do you keep saying it over and over?
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:15 am

Dodgeball.jpg
SteveKlinko wrote: If you take the Pain away from that individual, that has Pain, what would happen to him?
You can't take pain away from a species that has already evolved pain to adapt to its environment. That's as stupid as saying "If we cut the evolved legs off a monkey will it still climb trees?" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote: His survival rate would no doubt go down
....and how will that make the species add new genes and evolve one way or the other? You still don't have a clue what the theory of evolution is, do you? :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote:It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience.
SteveKlinko wrote: and that would most likely affect his Evolutionary future.
How? Explain exactly the steps that this individual's genes will change and be guided to evolve one way or the other?
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:27 am

SteveKlinko wrote: The evidence is staring you in the face.
Yep. I have asked you ten times to explain the steps where conscious thought introduces new genes and you can't offer any explanation. That's because you don't know what the theory of evolution is an you refuse to read a science book to find out. :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote: Why is there so much Pain on this Planet? It's because Pain was absolutely necessary in order to Evolve the type of creatures we have on the Earth.
You idiot!!! You forgot about evolved innate behaviour again. Animals evolved without consciousness. Plants were already evolving for 3.3 billion years before first animal evolved. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why do you hate science so much that you refuse to read science books on evolution? :lol: :lol:

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:35 am

SteveKlinko wrote: It's actually kind of entertaining listening to you Physicalists try to argue that the Experience of Pain has never had any influence on Evolution.
No Steve Klinko. Your posts are comedy gold. You cannot explain how your "pain theory" introduces new genes and make a species evolve one way or the other.

What is even funnier, is that your posts on this forum will be as far as your insane crackpot claim will ever go. You can't post your claim on a scientific evolution forum as you will be laughed at for hours. When scientists ask you the exact process for your claim, you will have to answer....."I don't know."
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:40 am

SteveKlinko a month ago wrote:It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience.
SteveKlinko yesterday wrote: I make no Claim of Conscious Intent.
.So you have dropped the "direct guidance" religious crap. You really are an idiot. :lol: :lol: