Killing Hope by William Blum

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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:34 pm

Tom Palven wrote:I'll stand by my opinion that the Afghanistan War is a cash cow for US weapons producers.
The Afghanistan military uses Russian equipment, The USA doesn't manufacture Russian equipment. French British and other NATO members in Afghanistan also don't use US equipment.

Your beloved Taliban, who you call "home boys", killed another 32 innocent civilians overnight. Taliban is trying to overthrow the democratically elected government who you call a Fourth Reich Vichy occupation government

Why do you hate Afghanistan civilians so much?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Tom Palven wrote:As leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party Adolph Hitler was an avowed socialist and also a warmonger.
The NSDAP wasn't socialist and you are using the English translation of a German word "Nationalsozialistische" {National Union) you complete idiot. You are aware they don't speak English in Germany, right? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Where does Hitler avow he is socialist, as you claimed?

You simply lied again as that's all you do.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Matt is as Neocon as Cheney and Bolton

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:32 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:34 pm
Tom Palven wrote:As leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party Adolph Hitler was an avowed socialist and also a warmonger.
The NSDAP wasn't socialist and you are using the English translation of a German word "Nationalsozialistische" {National Union) you complete idiot. You are aware they don't speak English in Germany, right? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Where does Hitler avow he is socialist, as you claimed?

You simply lied again as that's all you do.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You made up your own facts about US air power in Afghanistan, my college education, Adam Smith's credentials, and other things, so it's no surprise that you made up your own translation of "Nazism":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
Last edited by Tom Palven on Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
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Re: Killing Hope by William Blum

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:36 am

From your citation:
Wikipedia wrote:The term "National Socialism" arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of "socialism", as an alternative to both international socialism and free market capitalism. Nazism rejected the Marxist concept of class conflict, opposed cosmopolitan internationalism and sought to convince all parts of the new German society to subordinate their personal interests to the "common good", accepting political interests as the main priority of economic organization.
Nazism is not at all similar to what anybody but Nazis mean by the term "socialism", by their own efforts.
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Re: Killing Hope by William Blum

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:56 am

Austin Harper wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:36 am
From your citation:
Wikipedia wrote:The term "National Socialism" arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of "socialism", as an alternative to both international socialism and free market capitalism. Nazism rejected the Marxist concept of class conflict, opposed cosmopolitan internationalism and sought to convince all parts of the new German society to subordinate their personal interests to the "common good", accepting political interests as the main priority of economic organization.
Nazism is not at all similar to what anybody but Nazis mean by the term "socialism", by their own efforts.
You, Bernie Sanders, and anyone else can define "socialism" any way you want to.

My argument is with Matt, who says that Nazi doesn't stand for National Socialist German Workers' Party. Didn't he just say that? along with making up his own facts about my college education, Adam Smith's credentials, US air power in Afghanistan, and other BS that I don't see you taking him to task for.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Killing Hope by William Blum

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:13 am

I don't really know why Matt said that. Nationalsozialismus directly translates into English as "National Socialism"; the words are cognates. That doesn't mean they actually promoted socialist ideals, just that that's how they billed themselves.
Socialism, as it is generally understood is "any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods." (wiktionary definition) As I pointed out, from your Wikipedia citation, the Nazis redefined the word for their own use, but that doesn't change what the word means in general usage.
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Re: Killing Hope by William Blum

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:21 am

Austin Harper wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:13 am
I don't really know why Matt said that. Nationalsozialismus directly translates into English as "National Socialism"...
Can you guess why he said that? Could it be because he's full of disinformation (crap)?

If Matt is a paragon of socialism, it means that socialists believe that Edward Snowden, Julian Assange, and Chelsea Manning should be convicted and probably executed for treason, park rangers and farmers are scum, and that lawyers and secret police are the salt of the earth.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Killing Hope by William Blum

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:31 am

I can't speak to his views on Snowden, Assange, and Manning, but I don't think he's ever said park rangers or farmers are scum. If he has, could you please provide a quote of that? I also don't think he's every said that lawyers and secret police are the salt of the earth, but if you can show a quote for that I'd be interested in seeing it. I don't particularly like your equation of "lawyers" and "secret police"; they perform very different tasks and only one of them exists in the United States.
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Matt is as Neocon as Cheney and Bolton

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:14 am

Austin Harper wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:31 am
I can't speak to his views on Snowden, Assange, and Manning, but I don't think he's ever said park rangers or farmers are scum. If he has, could you please provide a quote of that? I also don't think he's every said that lawyers and secret police are the salt of the earth, but if you can show a quote for that I'd be interested in seeing it. I don't particularly like your equation of "lawyers" and "secret police"; they perform very different tasks and only one of them exists in the United States.

Why can't you speak to his views on Snowden, Assange, and Manning? He makes them very plain in the A Monument to Courage is Being Planned thread.

I'm not going to do a lengthy search, but in the History section in the History Repeats in Afghanistan thread on Oct 08 at 4:57 AM he said:
"You are the scum that needs to be removed from posting fake news in the internet..."

On Tues. Oct 9 2018 he said "You are simply a senile, scum, right wing Trump fan that posts fake news on the internet..."

And he has constantly repeated the charge that I am a park ranger who went to a farmer college whereas he is a lawyer who apparently knows everything, while pretending such things as US air power in Afghanistan don't exist.

Does none of this register with you?

If none this registers with you and you think that his arguments by ad hominem are fine and dandy and persuasive, and you just want to nitpick with me, I'll just have to live with that.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:37 am

Tom Palven wrote: You made up your own facts about US air power in Afghanistan
I didn't. You lied and I caught you out. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: The Afghan airforce uses Russian equipment. The UK NATO member use UK equipment. The French NATO member use French equipment. The USA NATO member uses USA equipment. Therefore you lied about the Afghan war being a created war of the 1961 US Military Industrial Complex conspiracy. :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote: .....my college education,
You lied and studied horticulture and worked in horticulture. You never studied economics or Adam Smith. You said that on your Libertarian Party CV. Did you forget? :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:Adam Smith's credentials,
You lied again and denied Adam Smith was not an economist even though he is recognised as the father of economics and specifically used his economic supply and demand theory to create what he himself called the "invisible hand" :lol: :lol:

More Lies by Tom Palven.
Tom Palven wrote:As leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party Adolph Hitler was an avowed socialist and also a warmonger.
Hitler had the socialists arrested as he was a "Nationalsozialistische" which doesn't mean socialist, at all. You simply lied again and forgot Germans speak German, not English :lol: :lol:

Where and when did Hitler state he that he was a socialist ? You specifically said he was an avowed socialist. That was another lie wasn't it Tom Palven. :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote: Taliban are the "home boys" and fought the Soviets.
Taliban didn't exist when the mujahideen were fighting the Soviets. Taliban is the Maddrasa fundamental religious school student movement controlled by Pakistan's ISI who is currently blowing up Afghan civilians.
Tom Palven wrote: ....the Fourth Reich Vichy occupation government in Afghanistan
Why is the democratically elected government of Afghanistan a) the Fourth Reich b) from the French city of Vichy c) an occuaption government? You lied three times in one sentence.

Why do you support Taliban blowing up civilians to stop the democratic election.
:lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:You, Bernie Sanders, and anyone else can define "socialism" any way you want to.
Bernie Sander doesn't speak German and doesn't use the German word Nationalsozialistische. What makes you a total idiot is the NAZIs defined "Nationalsozialistische" in their manifesto. It isn't socialism. They executed socialists. :lol: :lol:

Why are you so stupid and lie all the time?
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:54 am

Tom Palven yesterday wrote:As leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party Adolph Hitler was an avowed socialist and also a warmonger.
Austin Harper wrote: I don't really know why Matt said that. Nationalsozialismus directly translates into English as "National Socialism";
I didn't. Tom Palven claimed this crap and is lying, again. :lol: :lol:

Firstly, I speak German as my family lived in Vienna and Munich when my father was in the airforce. . Secondly, the holocaust deniers both here and on Stormfront have been claiming the same crap that "Nationalsozialistische" translates into English as national socialism and were socialists

The NSDAP was fighting the socialists and promoting themselves as conservatives working with the industrialists. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Holocaust Encyclopedia
"In the months after Hitler took power, SA and Gestapo agents went from door to door looking for Hitler's enemies. They arrested Socialists, Communists, trade union leaders,"
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... ror-begins

Tom Palven simply tells lies to promote Fox News and conservative propaganda.

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:50 am

Nazism, socialism and the falsification of history
Thus, last week, Paul Murray complained that young people tempted by left-wing politics fail to understand that the Second World War was waged against socialism. Presumably by this he meant the Axis powers, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.......This bizarre view fails to consider the inconvenient fact that the Allies included among its number the communist Soviet Union,.

Under Hitler, the NAZI party looked squarely to the middle classes and farmers rather than the working class for a political base. Hitler realigned it to ensure that it was an anti-socialist, anti-liberal, authoritarian, pro-business party - particularly after the failed Beerhall Putsch of 1923.

So if the Nazis were so obviously anti-socialist, and believed so ardently in the virtues of private property and entrepreneurship, and if socialists were among the earliest and hardest hit victims of the Nazi party prior to the Second World War, why is Hitler being proclaimed by some as a socialist?

The current revisionist bible is Dinesh D'Souza's The Big Lie: Exposing the Nazi Roots of the American Left published in the United States last year to predictable applause from the right-wing parallel universe.
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/nazism- ... y/10214302

So Tom Palven? Tell us about when Hitler actually announced he was a "Socialist" in English, as you claimed? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Matt is as Neocon as Cheney and Bolton

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:12 am

Austin Harper wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:13 am
I don't really know why Matt said that. Nationalsozialismus directly translates into English as "National Socialism";
That was typical Matthew Ellard disinformation and obfuscation.

Another example of this is that Matthew has attacked the motives of US citizens Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning, but when asked his opinion of John Bolton or other US neoconservatives he just laughs it away and says that I am an idiot who should know by now that he is an Australian, not an American citizen, and pleads that he has no opinion about them.

Difference of opinion is one thing, but Matt has no problem at all with his personal attacks, inconsistency, double standards, obfuscation, and disinformation.

That is Matt in a nut shell, his modus operandi, and as long as he trolls my threads and posts that I am an idiot or a liar, I will continue to point out his BS.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Matt is as Neocon as Cheney and Bolton

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:09 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:14 am
Austin Harper wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:31 am
I can't speak to his views on Snowden, Assange, and Manning, but I don't think he's ever said park rangers or farmers are scum. If he has, could you please provide a quote of that? I also don't think he's every said that lawyers and secret police are the salt of the earth, but if you can show a quote for that I'd be interested in seeing it. I don't particularly like your equation of "lawyers" and "secret police"; they perform very different tasks and only one of them exists in the United States.
Why can't you speak to his views on Snowden, Assange, and Manning? He makes them very plain in the A Monument to Courage is Being Planned thread.
Because I haven't been keeping tabs on that thread, I guess. I don't remember reading his supporting any of those people or supporting them being tried for treason and executed.
Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:14 am
I'm not going to do a lengthy search, but in the History section in the History Repeats in Afghanistan thread on Oct 08 at 4:57 AM he said:
"You are the scum that needs to be removed from posting fake news in the internet..."

On Tues. Oct 9 2018 he said "You are simply a senile, scum, right wing Trump fan that posts fake news on the internet..."

And he has constantly repeated the charge that I am a park ranger who went to a farmer college whereas he is a lawyer who apparently knows everything, while pretending such things as US air power in Afghanistan don't exist.
Well it's certainly clear that he doesn't think much of you, but it's not because you're a park ranger. The reason he brings up your profession is because you tried to make arguments based on your education in economics at Cornell but that's not what you studied and you are in fact a park ranger. Being a park ranger isn't a bad thing (my cousin is a park ranger and she's a very intelligent woman) but falsifying credentials is. Matt has mentioned that he is a lawyer before but I think it's been in reference to issues concerning the law, where it was relevant. Also, my father is a lawyer and a good man. I still don't see what you think lawyers have in common with the secret police, which again, do not exist here in the US or in Matthew's home of Australia.
Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:14 am
Does none of this register with you?

If none this registers with you and you think that his arguments by ad hominem are fine and dandy and persuasive, and you just want to nitpick with me, I'll just have to live with that.
He has made some ad hominem attacks by calling you unintelligent, but they aren't examples of the ad hominem fallacy. He's not saying your arguments are wrong because you are stupid (which I'm not saying you are). He's calling you names and also explaining why you are wrong. I wish he wouldn't call people names because I think it reflects poorly on him, but his arguments are sound. You are making all sorts of claims and not providing evidence for them. When you do provide evidence, it's not for what you are claiming.
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Re: Killing Hope by William Blum

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:24 pm

One more thing:
As I said, I'm not sure what Matt has said regarding Snowden, Assange, and Manning because I'm not following that other thread, but all three of those people did commit crimes.
  • Snowden illegally leaked classified information about the NSA. He fled the country before he could be tried or convicted of anything.
  • I don't think Assange's founding of Wikileaks was illegal, nor was his position as editor. He was under suspicion of rape in Sweden in 2011 and surrendered to UK police. He was released on bail after a few days, at which point he breached bail to hide in the Ecuadorian embassy. The case in Sweden was dropped but he will be arrested in the UK if he ever leaves the embassy because the breach of bail was a criminal act.
  • Manning was convicted of violating the Espionage act by giving classified documents to Wikileaks for publication.
I think Manning thought she was doing the right thing by making those documents public, Assange thought he was doing the right thing by hosting them, and Snowden thought he was doing the right thing by releasing documents about the NSA. Whether or not their crimes were justified is a matter of debate, but there's a reason Snowden and Assange are in exile and Manning was in jail.

Perhaps in the future we'll find that the other people you've mentioned have also committed crimes. Time will tell.
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Re: Matt is as Neocon as Cheney and Bolton

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:18 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:09 pm
Well it's certainly clear that he doesn't think much of you, but it's not because you're a park ranger. The reason he brings up your profession is because you tried to make arguments based on your education in economics at Cornell but that's not what you studied and you are in fact a park ranger.
Why am I, in fact, a park ranger? Because Matthew Ellard said so? Am I also an idiot or is that just his typical pejorative BS?

I was a park naturalist for about a year as one of my first jobs out of college, but I've never been a park ranger, and I've never claimed to have majored in economics. I did study economics by taking courses in both macro and microeconomics while at Cornell, and have done a fair amount of reading in the field of economics since leaving college.

He has called me scum, and implied that park rangers and farmers are scum as compared to lawyers and his secret police heroes. You may not feel that he implied those things. That is just my very strong opinion.

It is also my opinion that Snowden, Manning and Assange acted heroically in violating the law. I think that the people who violated the law in Holland by harboring Anne Frank also acted heroically. That's just my opinion. You and Matt are entitled to your own opinions.

Another strong opinion of mine is that practically everything that Matt posts to me and about me is BS.

And again, how you can nitpick with me when he is so totally full of crap is something I don't want to even think about, much less do I want to answer your litany of questions. You can parse his crap for yourself.

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
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Re: Matt is as Neocon as Cheney and Bolton

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:21 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:18 pm
Why am I, in fact, a park ranger? Because Matthew Ellard said so? Am I also an idiot or is that just his typical pejorative BS?

I was a park naturalist for about a year as one of my first jobs out of college, but I've never been a park ranger
That's my mistake, I thought you had confirmed that you were a park ranger.
Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:18 pm
and I've never claimed to have majored in economics. I did study economics by taking courses in both macro and microeconomics while at Cornell, and have done a fair amount of reading in the field of economics since leaving college.
Not specifically, no, but saying "I studied economics at Cornell" implies that it was a focus of your studies. I can say that I studied pipe organ performance and African francophone literature at the University of Kansas but I wouldn't. Yes, I did take classes on those subjects and I do still play the organ and read African francophone literature but I would say that I studied aerospace engineering and took classes in other subjects. It may be a semantic difference but semantics matter.
Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:18 pm
He has called me scum, and implied that park rangers and farmers are scum as compared to lawyers and his secret police heroes. You may not feel that he implied those things. That is just my very strong opinion.
I don't agree that by insulting you personally Matthew has insulted park rangers or farmers in general, especially since you aren't either of those things, and I don't think he thinks lawyers or secret police are heroes. Again, I don't know where you're pulling this unfounded parallel between lawyers and secret police from. I'm also not sure where the parallel between park rangers and farmers comes from.
Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:18 pm
It is also my opinion that Snowden, Manning and Assange acted heroically in violating the law. I think that the people who violated the law in Holland by harboring Anne Frank also acted heroically. That's just my opinion. You and Matt are entitled to your own opinions.
I agree that it is sometimes appropriate to break the law, but that doesn't mean a law hasn't been broken.
Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:18 pm
Another strong opinion of mine is that practically everything that Matt posts to me and about me is BS.

And again, how you can nitpick with me when he is so totally full of crap is something I don't want to even think about, much less do I want to answer your litany of questions. You can parse his crap for yourself.
I think the difference is that you are claiming that he has said all sorts of things without any evidence that he has done so. As I said, you often give citations for claims but your citations don't back up your claims. You keep claiming that Matthew is a neoconservative who loves John Bolton and somehow he supports secret police and American military actions while he has informed you multiple times that he is a socialist from Australia who doesn't support American military actions. You tried to claim that Nazis were socialists to back up this claim but your own citation refuted that claim, as I showed you in the quote saying that the Nazis tried to redefine the term "socialism" to mean something other than the common definition that everybody else (including Matthew) is using.

The only thing I think Matthew has incorrectly claimed is that you are a park ranger and unintelligent.
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:25 am

Fox News is claiming Hitler is a socialist and that the left are warmongers. Tom copies Fox News propaganda. In this current thread Tom claimed
Tom Palven wrote:As leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party Adolph Hitler was an avowed socialist and also a warmonger.
However in the anti holocaust denial thread, as there were forum members of the UK and Australian Labor Parties, Tom tried a different false translation.
Tom Palven wrote:Hitler called himself a socialist, too, and was the leader of the Natiional Socialist Labor Party,
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... or#p657287

Tom forged the translation and was caught out by one of the anti-holocaust denial historians. . He then changed it again and made exactly the same Fox News claim. That's what he does. As Jeffk 1970, a WWII historian said to Tom Palven.
Jeffk 1970 wrote:National Socialist German Workers' Party, damnit. Christ, if you are going to butcher history at least get the name right.
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:42 am

Austin Harper wrote:That's my mistake, I thought you had confirmed that you were a park ranger.
He did, in his interview, when he stood for election for the anti-socialist Libertarian Party. Tom Palven is simply lying again.

"Occupation is horticulturist"

"Served two years in US Naval Reserve" ( You warmonger Tom! In contrast, I have never touched a weapon of any sort.) :lol: :lol: :lol:

"Has been employed for last eight years as Monmouth County Horticultural Consultant"

"I plan to drastically lower the budget by cutting out federal agencies and cutting out military aid to foreign governments, OSHA and the department of Energy would be abolished." ( Tom is more Trump than Trump.) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Poor Tom can't remember what he previously has posted on the internet. He still insists he studied Adam Smith, the economist for his economics modules........although he denies Adam Smith has anything to do with economics. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:Although it was not required reading in my economics courses at Cornell, (The Wealth of Nations was) I had taken it out of the library and perused it,
Hey Tom? How does Adam Smith define his "invisible hand" in economics, using supply and demand curves in Wealth of Nations ? :lol: :lol:

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Matt Ellard is as Neocon as Cheney and Bolton

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:49 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:42 am
Austin Harper wrote:That's my mistake, I thought you had confirmed that you were a park ranger.
He did, in his interview, when he stood for election for the anti-socialist Libertarian Party. Tom Palven is simply lying again.

"Occupation is horticulturist"

"Served two years in US Naval Reserve" ( You warmonger Tom! In contrast, I have never touched a weapon of any sort.) :lol: :lol: :lol:

"Has been employed for last eight years as Monmouth County Horticultural Consultant"

"I plan to drastically lower the budget by cutting out federal agencies and cutting out military aid to foreign governments, OSHA and the department of Energy would be abolished." ( Tom is more Trump than Trump.) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Poor Tom can't remember what he previously has posted on the internet. He still insists he studied Adam Smith, the economist for his economics modules........although he denies Adam Smith has anything to do with economics. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:Although it was not required reading in my economics courses at Cornell, (The Wealth of Nations was) I had taken it out of the library and perused it,
Hey Tom? How does Adam Smith define his "invisible hand" in economics, using supply and demand curves in Wealth of Nations ? :lol: :lol:
Nevada Barr and other park rangers can be highly intelligent nature lovers, but I was never one of them. "Horticulturist" is not the same as "park rangers" except to ignorant a-holes.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:13 am

Tom Palven wrote: Nevada Barr and other park rangers can be highly intelligent nature lovers, but I was never one of them. "Horticulturist" is not the same as "park rangers" except to ignorant a-holes.
Tell us about your economic courses for your horticulture studies? Are you now claiming Adam Smith was a gardener? :lol: :lol:

You are total idiot Tom Palven. Your lies and Fox News propaganda spams, keep getting caught out every time.
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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:22 am

Hey Tom Palven?

You claimed that the USA intelligence agencies are the "Deep State". But if Trump appointed all the directors of those same agencies..........doesn't that mean Trump is the leader of the Deep State?


You claimed the 1961 Military Industrial Complex conspiracy still exists, to create wars and sell weapons. But if Trump is keeping the 106 billion arms sale to Saudia Arabia and recomencing the manufacture of intermediatte range nuclear missiles, then isn't Trump also the leader of the MIC that you hate?

What are you doing to get rid of Trump, if he is your worst enemy? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Matt Ellard is as Neocon as Cheney and Bolton

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:54 am

Matt, you've had lots of opportunities to denounce Cheney. Bolton, or other neocons, but you've only denounced Snowden, Manning, and Assange.

And you constantly repeat all the US deep state BS about US involvement in Afghanistan and the Mid-East.

Do you really admire Cheney, Bolton, et al and believe all the deep state lies, or is it that you have to toe line for ASIS?

Are you paid to troll disinformation and disrupt honest inquiry while pretending to be a skeptical socialist do-gooder, or do you just do it for kicks and grins?
http://jimbovard.com/blog/2018/10/21/en ... istan-war/

I'm retired, but I'm curious how you get all the time to troll with elaborate cartoons while having a full-time job and little kids, unless things are not how you describe them.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:09 am

Tom Palven wrote: Matt, you've had lots of opportunities to denounce Cheney. Bolton, or other neocons, but you've only denounced Snowden, Manning, and Assange.

1) Dick Cheney isn't in government and hasn't been for nine years.
2) I specifically posted that Bolton should remain out of Iran and that Bolton is a right wing idiot who Trump hired from Fox News. You copy Fox propaganda here.
3) Neocons went with George Bush Jnr ( See Cheney)
4) Snowden handed 750,000 secret documents to Russia and defected to Russia where he is paid $200,000 a year,
5) Manning faced court and that was honorable of her, so I have no view,
6) Assange has flipped and is talking to Mueller about the Russian take over of Wikileaks, as I clearly wrote in the Assange thread.

However Tom Palven's lies and fabrications in this thread alone include.....

1) Lied with two different translations of the German compound Nationalsozialistische and then claimed Hitler was an avowed (openly stated) "socialist" when in reality the NAZIs were arresting socialists,
2) Called the legitimate Afghanistan democratic government a "Fourth Reich Vichy Occupation government, knowing none of that was true,
3) Tom offered support for Pakistan's controlled Taliban, "home boys" who hid Bin Laden and is blowing up Afghan civilians to stop the 2018 democratic elections, Tom lies and also claims Taliban threw out the Soviets.
4) Pretends the US intelligence agencies are the Fox News Fake "Deep State" conspiracy propaganda , while denying Trump himself appointed their directors of those same agencies
5) Pretends a fake "1961 Military Industrial Complex" conspiracy is selling weapons while denying Trump, himself is selling 107 billion dollars of weapons to Saudi Arabia, despite their execution of journalists.

Tom Palven is an idiot. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Killing Hope by William Blum

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:01 am

Wow! Matt gave a direct fulsome response. :good:

Will Tom reciprocate? :pc:
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Is Matt Paid to Troll?

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:34 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:09 am


Tom Palven's lies and fabrications in this thread alone include.....

1) Lied with two different translations of the German compound Nationalsozialistische and then claimed Hitler was an avowed (openly stated) "socialist" when in reality the NAZIs were arresting socialists,

Hitler's speech, "This is National Socialism:"
2:00-2:15 minutes:
"Our social welfare system is much more than just charity..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfZ22eJ ... 1540385402

I await with bated breath to see how you twist and spin the above with your inimitable BS dance moves, Matt.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=tw ... &FORM=VIRE
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Killing Hope by William Blum

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:55 pm

socialism: A political theory advocating state ownership of industry

autocracy: A political system governed by a single individual

Which is closer?...and what would any autocrat claim when trying to win the mob over?????
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:37 pm

Tom Palven wrote:2:00-2:15 minutes : Hitler :"Our social welfare system is much more than just charity..."
Why are you so stupid?
1) Hitler is speaking in German, not English
2) Hitler does not use the German word for socialist
3) Hitler directly uses the German word "Nationalsozialistische"
4) The English translation subtitles are from 2012, by a holocaust denier "THELIDGRENN" which suggests you have been looking at holocaust denial websites.


Tom Palven wrote:I await with bated breath to see how you twist and spin the above
Like the USA holocaust deniers, where you found this video, you misquoted Hitler in English, you complete idiot. Hitler didn't speak English.

I laughed as soon as I saw your English quote.
:D :D :D

Why are you so stupid? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Killing Hope by William Blum

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:04 pm

Matt: Kudos to you. I googled the translation for Nationalsozialistische and found it to mean "Nazism." Very invigorating to see the interplay of "what words mean" comparing directly to in context. The subtleties and room for error are wonderful to come to grips with.

Thank you.....and I hope Tom comes to see it as well?

Dithering: I have posted that the same kind of "direct vs context" exists even WITHIN the same language...with the error producing context being the passage of time. For instance the constitutional meaning of: "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Life and liberty are the same but in 1776 "pursuit of happiness" had a very different and definite meaning than a plain reading of those words today. "Happy" has nothing to do with it...and pursuit is different as well.

Words. You gotta love them and the hubris that goes with everything we hoomans do.
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:09 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:socialism: A political theory advocating state ownership of industry
As you know, Hitler did deals with the large German industrialists and the NAZI state did not take over companies. Instead, Hitler supplied them slave labour from NAZI occupied Europe. Hitler's best friend was Ferdinand Porsche who owned....Porsche,

Tom Palven and Fox News : "The Left is violent / Socialism is violent"
Tom Palven copies his right wing propaganda from Fox News. Fox News currently has a campaign claiming the left is violent and forming mobs to attack Americans. ( Hitler said the same about socialists and communists, to arrest them)
Lest is violent.jpg
Lest is violent2.jpg
Tom Palven , like Fox and our own forum holocaust deniers, is pretending that Hitler's "Nationalsozialistische" means "socialist" and that Hitler was a leftist.......and therefore all us socialists are warmongers like Hitler.

Tom Palven obviously hasn't read Hitler's book Mein Kampf and how Hitler said socialism and communism must be destroyed. Tom also hides the fact that Hitler arrested all socialists.

Tom is just another extreme right-wing idiot following Fox.


Hitler, Nazis, Socialism, and Rightwing Propaganda / David Klein / January 2011
https://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/NazismSocialism.html
"For several years, the right wing has been equating nazism, the left, and socialism. This is standard propaganda for Fox News and the Tea Party which both denounce Obama as a socialist and at the same time portray him visually with a Hitler mustache."

"Hitler and the Nazis outlawed socialism, and executed socialists and communists en masse, even before they started rounding up Jews. In 1933, the Dachau concentration camp held socialists and leftists exclusively. The Nazis arrested more than 11,000 Germans for "illegal socialist activity" in 1936."
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:12 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: ....and I hope Tom comes to see it as well?
Tom will simply start a new thread and make exactly the same debunked claim. The two Trump fans on our forum both do that. Gorgeous and Tom Palven. :D

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:28 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:09 pm
Fox News currently has a campaign claiming the left is violent and forming mobs to attack Americans.
Its instructive while increasingly disturbing to watch Tucker Carlson do his manipulations every night with every guest. Its "real" propaganda on display. Using the same critical assessments, I don't see the same on Russian TV...the Russian State Supported TV shown 24/7 in the USA. RT is actually a fine news source from everything I can see. Only a tiny bit of propaganda now and then and only when getting closer to Putin and then only by the female presenters.

Fun to observe....and switch channels when its Faux Spews.

It was funny watching Bill Maher last week. His observation: Trump unlike Putin is not trying to control the news media rather it is the other way around. Trump takes his "orders" from Fox News. My Lord.....the person actually running the country is Steve Doocy. Ha, ha. //// Trump: proof that stupid can give you the same results as intentional evil.
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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:43 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Its instructive while increasingly disturbing to watch Tucker Carlson do his manipulations every night with every guest.
Well guess who Tom Palven follows.......
Tom Palven wrote:Here's Tucker Carlson, a voice crying in the wilderness..........
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... er#p651845

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Does ASIS Pay Matt to Troll?

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:34 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:37 pm
Tom Palven wrote:2:00-2:15 minutes : Hitler :"Our social welfare system is much more than just charity..."
Why are you so stupid?
1) Hitler is speaking in German, not English
2) Hitler does not use the German word for socialist
3) Hitler directly uses the German word "Nationalsozialistische"
4) The English translation subtitles are from 2012, by a holocaust denier "THELIDGRENN" which suggests you have been looking at holocaust denial websites.


Tom Palven wrote:I await with bated breath to see how you twist and spin the above
Like the USA holocaust deniers, where you found this video, you misquoted Hitler in English, you complete idiot. Hitler didn't speak English.

I laughed as soon as I saw your English quote.
:D :D :D

Why are you so stupid? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

An amazingly excellent job, Matt, even better than your usual discredited horse crap, and your linking me to holocaust denial is stonkingly brilliant.

Your twisting of words and facts would be almost convincing to me if I didn't know better, and you've even picked up a supporting dupe!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRlT8ZoExGU

But the bottom line is that you unprincipled warmongering neoconservatives got nuthin but money, and are on the wrong side of history.
NEOCON WATCH:
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Re: Killing Hope by William Blum

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:13 pm

By coincidence, caught an old show of Bill Maher giving criticism of his friend RoseAnn. Her new show is a hit but she forgot who she was: not a right wing Trumpian Republican but a socialist. He then replayed some of her quotes showing she supported Sanders and socialism and "the people" and.....……..…….NOT...….."this kind of socialism" which was a picture of some White Power bald headed freaks marching with their hands up in a Nazi Salute with Nationallsozialistism" as the caption.

Making a distinction few will catch.
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Re: Does ASIS Pay Matt to Troll?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:17 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:34 am

An amazingly excellent job, Matt, even better than your usual discredited horse crap, and your linking me to holocaust denial is stonkingly brilliant.

Your twisting of words and facts would be almost convincing to me if I didn't know better, and you've even picked up a supporting dupe!
Tom Plaven: you see you make one statement and then immediately contradict it? .............so.........inquiring minds want to know: which is it???

If you disagree and think Nationalsozialistische means Hitler was a socialist then you simply are refusing to correct yourself......or what??? What was twisted ...besides your response????

The only "twisting" I see Matt doing is on what you post in order to straighten you out......but you see the difference there to?

Can you be substantive?..............try.
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:53 am

Tom Palven wrote:An amazingly excellent job, Matt, even better than your usual discredited horse crap, and your linking me to holocaust denial is stonkingly brilliant.
You downloaded a holocaust denier's video which a holocaust denier had added his false English translation of Hitler's speech which was in German. :lol: :lol:

You then quoted the holocaust denier and pretended it was an English quote by Hitler, :lol: :lol:

Hitler never spoke English, does not use the German word "socialist" and clearly uses the German word "Nationalsozialistische" (NAZI). You then pretended to forget that Hitler was arresting socialists since 1933 and was locking them up in Dachau concentration camp. :lol: :lol:
Tucker Carlson.jpg
Tom Palven wrote: you've even picked up a supporting dupe!
That would be some of the Jewish members of this forum whose grand parents were possibly sent to concentration camps and some of the historians from the anti-holocaust denial sub-forum, who are reading your Fox News false propaganda that Hitler was a socialist
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Is Matt an ASIS Troll?

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:54 am

Austin Harper wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:13 am
I don't really know why Matt said that. Nationalsozialismus directly translates into English as "National Socialism"; the words are cognates. That doesn't mean they actually promoted socialist ideals, just that that's how they billed themselves.
Exactly.

If you look at the timing of Matt's posts, that's probably just Matt doing his job as a disinformation troll during business hours, probably for ASIS or another CIA affiliate.

He claims to speak Russian and German in addition to English, but his twisted English is more like Legalese Gibberish.

No one but he would dispute that Hitler was the leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party who claimed to be a socialist, in addition to claiming to love altruism and to want a classless society and peace, prior to invading his neighbors.

Here's Hitler claiming to love peace:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6lhoOL ... 1540548597
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I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Killing Hope by William Blum

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:35 pm

Well he certainly speaks Russian; we have spoken Russian to each other to practice. Why is is unlikely that he speaks German too? I also speak French, Italian, Latin, and Ænglisc.
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:10 am

Tom Palven wrote:No one but he would dispute that Hitler was the leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party who claimed to be a socialist,
You are lying again Tom Palven

Three times I have asked you to back up your false claim, to link us to Hitler calling himself a socialist. All you have done so far is quote an America holocaust denier's 2013 translation of a Hitler you tube, where Hitler's audio voice is saying Nationalsozialistische. When I informed you Hitler was arresting socialists and sending the Dachau concentration camp since 1933 you ran away.

I then pointed out that you were simply copying Fox News propaganda anti socialist propaganda,,,,word for word. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hitler, Nazis, Socialism, and Rightwing Propaganda / David Klein / January 2011
https://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/NazismSocialism.html
"For several years, the right wing has been equating nazism, the left, and socialism. This is standard propaganda for Fox News and the Tea Party which both denounce Obama as a socialist and at the same time portray him visually with a Hitler mustache."

"Hitler and the Nazis outlawed socialism, and executed socialists and communists en masse, even before they started rounding up Jews. In 1933, the Dachau concentration camp held socialists and leftists exclusively. The Nazis arrested more than 11,000 Germans for "illegal socialist activity" in 1936."

Why do you tell so many lies to support Trump? :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:19 am

Tom Palven wrote:...... that's probably just Matt doing his job as a disinformation troll during business hours, probably for ASIS or another CIA affiliate.
It's Saturday in Australia you compete idiot. (We are in a different time zone) :lol: :lol:

You really are a total idiot Tom Palven :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:.Here's Hitler claiming to love peace:
You now openly watch pro Hitler films and post them on our anti-holocaust denial forum? :lol: :lol: :lol: