Libertarians are Monsters

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Tom Palven
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:16 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:40 am
So you think that the US should treat a single human the way they treat another country?
How would that work?
Yes, it should not coerce, initiate aggression against, a single human being, such as a peaceful person smoking a joint, just as one tiny example.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Wordbird » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:55 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:06 am
The NAP is almost identical to the various Golden, Silver, and Platinum Rules, particularly the negative Golden Rule- "Do not do to others what you don't want done to yourself," which Karen Armstrong mentions:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=le ... d+talk&vie...
That's a load of BS. Do you read the links you post?

The golden and silver rules are about treating other people as people. In other words, think before you do something to someone else: How would I feel if the situation were reversed? It's obvious that bullying people into suicide is against these rules.

The Non-Aggression Principle is about hurting others with impunity as long as you don't commit the narrow, narrow sin of aggression.

I'm asking you why you think telling others to commit suicide is not wrong.

Not only is it not wrong in libertarianism, but if there is a government, it should be focused on protecting bullies like these from any retaliation. Only thing you can do against them in libertarianism? Not buy their stuff.

You want to hurt people with impunity.

Don't offer better rules and pretend I'm attacking them. Defend your rule: The NAP.
Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:16 pm
Yes, [government] should not coerce, initiate aggression against, a single human being, such as a peaceful person smoking a joint, just as one tiny example.
And government should not initiate aggression against those who bully others into suicide, as another example.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:02 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:16 pm
ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:40 am
So you think that the US should treat a single human the way they treat another country?
How would that work?
Yes, it should not coerce, initiate aggression against, a single human being, such as a peaceful person smoking a joint, just as one tiny example.
but what is coercion?
If a country with a huge market starts negotiating a trade deal with a much smaller one, one side is obviously much more desperate to get the deal than the other. Non-coercion would mean that the bigger country would have to offer more favorable terms to the smaller country than it would to a bigger one, just to stay peaceful.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:35 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:02 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:16 pm
ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:40 am
So you think that the US should treat a single human the way they treat another country?
How would that work?
Yes, it should not coerce, initiate aggression against, a single human being, such as a peaceful person smoking a joint, just as one tiny example.
but what is coercion?
If a country with a huge market starts negotiating a trade deal with a much smaller one, one side is obviously much more desperate to get the deal than the other. Non-coercion would mean that the bigger country would have to offer more favorable terms to the smaller country than it would to a bigger one, just to stay peaceful.
The critical error is accepting the conventional wisdom that countries trade with each other. THEY DO NOT. It is individuals and companies that import and export goods and services, except for the MIC which has government officials involved in negotiating their deals.

For example, an agribusiness in a small country like Guatemala, Venezuela, or Cuba can negotiate a deal to sell tomatoes or avocadoes to Wal-Mart that is acceptable to both parties if the US government doesn't get in the way.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:10 pm

Wrong.
People can only trade inside or outside a country if a state or inter-state treaties create the appropriate conditions.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:38 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:35 pm
The critical error is accepting the conventional wisdom that countries trade with each other. THEY DO NOT. It is individuals and companies that import and export goods and services, except for the MIC which has government officials involved in negotiating their deals.
Countries don't trade with each other, but the people in those countries do?

How could I have been so stupid?
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:10 pm

Gee landrew you sure are putting a lot of effort into refusing new ideas/different contexts. Goes right back to anthropomorphizing countries.....as in: they aren't. Yes, its common parlance to make that analogy or construct ........BUT THE WHOLE POINT IS: that construct doesn't work when you want to apply morals.

Shirley thats not so difficult? ===Nice gif though.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:54 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:10 pm
Wrong.
People can only trade inside or outside a country if a state or inter-state treaties create the appropriate conditions.
That's what An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations was all about, getting rid of the older version of Trumpism with its sanctions, tariffs and other politically-motivated asinine barriers to FREE TRADE which are a perfect example of Proudhon's Complaint:

"To be governed is to be watched over, inspected, spied on, directed, legislated at, regulated, docketed, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, assessed, weighed, censored, ordered about, by men who have neither the right nor the knowledge nor the virtue."
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:00 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:10 pm
Wrong.
People can only trade inside or outside a country if a state or inter-state treaties create the appropriate conditions.
Not to mention tariffs and quotas which a state can impose unilaterally
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:00 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:54 pm
ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:10 pm
Wrong.
People can only trade inside or outside a country if a state or inter-state treaties create the appropriate conditions.
That's what An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations was all about, getting rid of the older version of Trumpism with its sanctions, tariffs and other politically-motivated asinine barriers to FREE TRADE which are a perfect example of Proudhon's Complaint:

"To be governed is to be watched over, inspected, spied on, directed, legislated at, regulated, docketed, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, assessed, weighed, censored, ordered about, by men who have neither the right nor the knowledge nor the virtue."
Not exactly true. They do have the right.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:35 pm

Yep. Rights are conferred by LAW. ............... and LAW is forced on the governed by those who have it.

A simple dichotomy, and a good example of neither side being right.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:58 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:00 pm
ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:10 pm
Wrong.
People can only trade inside or outside a country if a state or inter-state treaties create the appropriate conditions.
Not to mention tariffs and quotas which a state can impose unilaterally
Dedicated to Matthew Ellard:
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:10 pm

I saw Roy in a rather small club near the end of his life. Small: about 300 or so. Don't recall ever hearing "The Crowd" before but the melody is so like "all" of his songs. I don't think the boy knew too many chords???? He had a three Octave Range....until he played our Club.....age or booze or.......doesn't matter, still a good evening. My favorite: "I drove all night". One of the few tunes that I think Dion does quite well with her three octave range.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:00 pm

Roy was special, unique, like Frankie Valli, or Bob Dylan.

It's surprising to hear that he couldn't fill a big venue, even at the end.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:17 pm

He filled the venue.....it was just "small."

...................................Heh, heh..............and ==>I'm getting glimmers that it wasn't Roy, but rather a Tribute Roy.

I AGREE: he would have filled stadiums to the end. Still a good evening though........obviously. xxxxxxxx And Beer was involved.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Wordbird » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:14 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:20 am
HARASSMENT is AGGRESSION: BY DEFINITION.
Not to libertarians. To libertarians, aggression is force or fraud.

http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bi ... 7224291/10
Then if the employer requests the sex favors, the employee simply quits. The employee is also free to publicize the incident.

Of course, you realize that I am not advocating for sexual harassment. I am simply saying that the market will take care of it.

In modern day, sexual harassment is really solicitation for prostitution. But that should be legal also.

Again, the market will take care of it. The business will lose customers. If the boss finds out that middle management is attempting to engage in such activity, that middle management will tend to be left without employment. I certainly don't want to be paying for prostitutes for my middle managers.
Agreed. There is no Constitutional authority for the Federal government to regulate "sexual harassment" other than for itself
Again, despicable behavior that the market can fix. We don't need the government trying to fix it. Similar to refusing a certain race at your business. The market will punish you.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:58 am

You are a few steps into crazy when you redefine common words and meanings to make your ideas "work" ....as they do/don't. Its a huge red flag if not a gravestone.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:27 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:58 am
You are a few steps into crazy when you redefine common words and meanings to make your ideas "work" ....as they do/don't. Its a huge red flag if not a gravestone.
The handwriting was on the wall, so I quit the LP years ago, well before they nominated conservative Congressman Bob Barr as their Presidential candidate, and I haven't signed the LP Non-aggression pledge in that many years.

If I have to have a label, I would call myself a classical liberal who advocates all the very similar Gold, Silver and Platinum Rules, which can essentially be construed as "live and let live." Have I said anything contrary to that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

If wordbird wants to attack libertarians, fine. If he wants to make it personal and attack me, he should attack my classical liberalism and the various Rules I mentioned. I don't know who he is quoting, above, but none of the quotes are from me.

Again, I call myself a classical liberal. I agree with all the neoliberal advocacy of civil liberties including women's rights to choose, gay rights, and racial equality, but I agree with the classical liberal views on free trade. Where have I indicated otherwise?

What words have I redefined?

What do you label yourself aside from "pragmatist?"
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:53 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:27 am
Where have I indicated otherwise?

What words have I redefined?

What do you label yourself aside from "pragmatist?"
I don't know or care. I respond to the words I put in quotes and don't do personality research. I have called out wordbird for the definition of harassment that he used whether or not he supports that or not. I don't know or care of any words that you have used improperly aka: not as the DICTIONARY sets forth. Such issues would have to come up in due course and be relevant. Again: no research.

A few of my other self assessments are in my signature line. These are not "goals" or guidelines or constrictions. Just labels that fit most of the time when I analyze my own thinking. So, classical liberal and fiscal conservative and near absolute free speech advocate would also work...........labels are fun, if you don't choke on them.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:15 am

Multicelluar organisms can accomplish things that single-cell organisms can't even fathom.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:35 am

I never think of myself as multi-cellular........until I post about how many bacteria are in our guts. Gives me a fuzzy spiritual feeling.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:26 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:53 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:27 am
Where have I indicated otherwise?

What words have I redefined?

What do you label yourself aside from "pragmatist?"
I don't know or care. I respond to the words I put in quotes and don't do personality research. I have called out wordbird for the definition of harassment that he used whether or not he supports that or not. I don't know or care of any words that you have used improperly aka: not as the DICTIONARY sets forth. Such issues would have to come up in due course and be relevant. Again: no research.

A few of my other self assessments are in my signature line. These are not "goals" or guidelines or constrictions. Just labels that fit most of the time when I analyze my own thinking. So, classical liberal and fiscal conservative and near absolute free speech advocate would also work...........labels are fun, if you don't choke on them.
Christ! I felt that I was getting abused by The Crowd here, and assumed that when you talked about redefining words that you were addressing me, but you had been calling out wordbird!

Sorry about that!
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Wordbird » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:43 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:58 am
You are a few steps into crazy when you redefine common words and meanings to make your ideas "work" ....as they do/don't. Its a huge red flag if not a gravestone.
I'm not the one doing that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle
The non-aggression principle (NAP), also called the non-aggression axiom, the anti-coercion, zero aggression principle, or non-initiation of force, is an ethical stance asserting that aggression is inherently wrong. In this context, aggression is defined as initiating or threatening any forceful interference with an individual or their property.

This is exactly what libertarians want. Instead of making up a new word for their crazy, ridiculous principle, they use a common one and a meaning specific to their cause.

Wordbird addresses the libertarian definition of aggression and Bobbo jumps down his throat because he's using the wrong definition!

Congrats libertarians. You've successfully redirected and diverted conversation away from the fact that you don't believe telling people to commit suicide should be illegal.
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:26 am
Christ! I felt that I was getting abused by The Crowd here, and assumed that when you talked about redefining words that you were addressing me, but you had been calling out wordbird!

Sorry about that!
Yep, he was calling out me for your definition of aggression, exactly as you intended.

You have the wool pulled over his eyes.

All so you can avoid talking about the fact that you do not believe verbally bullying others into suicide should be illegal.

Or am I wrong? If you don't believe that, then you're not a libertarian and I have no problem with you.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:37 pm

Youse two guys: not everything is about YOU. ((Joke: I mean: I'm here too!))

Ever get a "twinge" of emotion?....................................understand it.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by landrew » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:01 pm

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