Brexit

Where no two people are likely to agree.
User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10846
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:08 pm

I'm a bit dumbfounded. Mrs May's address to the nation was a five-minute (after all that waiting and hype) damp squib in which she said nothing new and blamed Parliament for everything. She is developing the habit of picking up custard pies and pushing them into her own face.

User avatar
Balsamo
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2079
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Brexit

Post by Balsamo » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:06 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:23 pm
Adding more context to try and make your post relevant, but I may be off a degree or two: Yes or No: could the UK hold another REF asap "if it wanted to" or not? Please answer THAT question..........not the 3-4 other questions you substitute for a simple straight forward question. Is it cheating to remind you Poodle has already answered Yes?
Not the UK, but the Parliament could of course. However, It is not as in Switzerland where the people has a right to impose a Referendum to the government. So yes, the Parilament can ask a new Referendum any time. That is the theory.

You might be happy with this answer. But i cannot keep myself from adding the following. If you happy with the above, don't read it.

Now Great Britain has a very old tradition in the way it conceives democracy, therefore, Referendum has always been an exceptional measure, especially a national one. It usual requires some deals BEFORE a general election, so that the Party who wanted the referendum for whatever reason can decide/impose it if it wins the election.
This is what happened in 2016. Up to this day, it is still the same Party that decided the Referendum, that recognized the result and passed it into law that has the majority at the Chamber. So if this very same majority would decide to organize another one, even though it got what it wanted, it would be politically so ridicule that it would become a joke. Hence the pointlessness of the idea.

You understand now, that the same Party that organized the referendum, that was happy with the result, and turned this result into a law thanks to its majority is very very very unlikely to decide for a new referendum.

Those dickheads who voted no to May's proposal are not all "Remainers", but most are "Brexiters" who do not want the amount of compromises that is IN the deal. And one can understand that given the price of the whole thing.

The problem of course being that there are remainers and brexiters in both party.

Poodle rightly pointed out that even if this insane Parliament decided to organize a new referendum, which would be absurd given the above, it would be too late as the result of the first one has already been turned into Law - which took more than a year for finally being signed by the Queen. So even if this majority of dummies wanted to commit a political suicide, it would be too late.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19276
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:33 am

Thanks Balsamo, that all makes sense.

Its quite stark to me that in the UK REFS are used to push responsibility of an action from the Parliament onto the people. Here in California anyway, REFS do come "from the people" whenever a petition for one is signed by so many people. Seems like a better system: when the people are dissatisfied that their political leaders are asleep at the switch, the people can wake them up and tell them what to do. Far superior...except...you just get the vagaries of another interest group.

No perfect system whether direct democracy, representational democracy, The AlreadyTooRich by bought and Paid For Congresscreeps....or whatever system you have. Just tried to google up "How to initiate Referendum UK" and couldn't get anything on point to counter what you have posted. Weird..totally different concept in UK than in the USA..........Ha, ha........UK doesn't have a Bill of Rights either. It does show.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10846
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:21 am

It's time for a 'where we are' report, I think.
Last night, Theresa May positioned herself as the lone warrior heroically battling an intransigent Parliament in order to save the UK - not from the EU Commission, but from the UK Parliament. She insisted that 'her' deal was better then anything else in the world. It is a deal which would lock the whole of the UK into an EU-defined backstop arrangement - otherwise known as EU membership - because part of her arrangement with the DUP of Northern Ireland (who hold May's tenuous majority) is that anything pertaining in NI must apply across the UK as a whole. If NI must have the backstop applied, so must England, Scotland, Wales, Gibraltar, the Channel Islands etc. The backstop's existence cannot be terminated unilaterally - if the EU thought it advantageous, they could keep it going ad infinitum.
May is demanding that Parliament votes for this arrangement ASAP so that Brexit can be finalised. Her opponents say that if we enter the backstop, Brexit will NEVER be finalised. The EU will not budge from their backstop terms. The only thing making this face-off real is the Good Friday Agreement which ended the Troubles in NI and, unless we want the Troubles to return, we must keep that border open.

So, the choices facing the UK are a) cancel Brexit b) accept a backstop over which the UK has no control, or c) exit with no deal at all.

a) As things stand, Brexit must happen by law - the only question is how? Cancelling Brexit would need an Act of Parliament to be passed to annul the law made as a result of the referendum. That would take a long time to do even if it had support and we would run into the March 29th barrier before even the first debate on the subject.
b) The backstop is the reason why Mrs May's attempts to finalise any deal with the EU have failed. In a nutshell, the backstop means that UK would, for the foreseeable future, continue to operate under EU terms with no unilateral get-out clauses. I don't need to explain why that may not be acceptable to the UK public.
c) The straightforward no-deal. The UK leaves on 29th March. No deals, no conditions, no backstop ... end of story.

Whatever happens, Mrs May is on her last legs, and last night's tirade confirmed that. So I give you all fair warning ... The Boris has had a haircut and is looking almost statesman-like. He's also kept his mouth firmly shut recently. Watch this space and keep your eyes on Dominic Raab too. I foresee a contest between those two.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 11951
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:14 am

See looks velly good to me. ;)

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19276
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:26 pm

Poodle wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:21 am
The only thing making this face-off real is the Good Friday Agreement which ended the Troubles in NI and, unless we want the Troubles to return, we must keep that border open.
I doubt it. Why would Protestant vs Catholic animosities return just because of an EU border? History and people often act this way though, kinda a fake Troubles stalking horse for the other disagreements that always exist. Most likely: a situation/concern that will last as long as lives in being plus their first generation die off and the continuing society can move on with a fresh page on which to write.

Heh, heh: as the provided link/video above illustrates: borders are totally artificial and artifacts of history. In our existential world, the borders "mean" whatever import people give to them. Nothing new.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11208
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: Brexit

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:37 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:26 pm
Poodle wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:21 am
The only thing making this face-off real is the Good Friday Agreement which ended the Troubles in NI and, unless we want the Troubles to return, we must keep that border open.
I doubt it. Why would Protestant vs Catholic animosities return just because of an EU border? History and people often act this way though, kinda a fake Troubles stalking horse for the other disagreements that always exist. Most likely: a situation/concern that will last as long as lives in being plus their first generation die off and the continuing society can move on with a fresh page on which to write.

Heh, heh: as the provided link/video above illustrates: borders are totally artificial and artifacts of history. In our existential world, the borders "mean" whatever import people give to them. Nothing new.
Things have moved on since the times of The Troubles. The old animosities and divisiveness are dying away with the older generation. The concept of nation-state is supported by ethnic diversity, which is also dying off as the internet is rapidly creating a "global culture." There's no going back to that world.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10846
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:28 pm

I sincerely hope you're both correct.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19276
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:31 pm

Ha ha.........the current generation, but only some of their ideas, always dies out. It gives room for new stupid ideas to take over.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10846
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:20 am

Yesterday's Happy Happy Club meeting produced results ...

Dear Mrs May ...
1. Forget March 29th - we were just kidding ha ha ha.
2. Think more 12th April (if you fail to get the deal through Parliament) ...
3. ... or 22 May (if you get your deal through Parliament).
Yours lovingly, the EU.

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5180
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:55 am

Poodle wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:20 am
Yesterday's Happy Happy Club meeting produced results ...

Dear Mrs May ...
1. Forget March 29th - we were just kidding ha ha ha.
2. Think more 12th April (if you fail to get the deal through Parliament) ...
3. ... or 22 May (if you get your deal through Parliament).
Yours lovingly, the EU.
seriously ?

you are making fun of the EU for giving the UK a chance to not have the no-deal they don't want but would have to have due to their dysfunctional Parliament?

Yes, the EU doesn't want the Uk to crash and burn - unlike plenty of UK politicians.

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10846
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:16 am

Not at all, EM. I'm making fun of all of 'em. I've never, in my entire life, seen such a shambles - and they're all as much at fault as anyone else. But I do wish for a little bit of certainty, a tiny twinkle of a clue that someone - anyone - involved in this fiasco has any idea what they're doing.
Neither you nor I actually know that the UK does not want a no-deal solution. Nor do we know that the UK does want one.
The only guidance we have as to what the UK wants remains the referendum result. In the meantime, the UK Parliament is doing what it's supposed to do - it may appear chaotic, but it's democratic rather than dysfunctional. Sometimes democracy IS messy - I give you the EU as another prime example.
The only thing demonstrated by last night's outcome is the wish on the parts of Theresa May and the EU representatives to avoid a no-deal scenario - but we all already knew that. It was a complete and utter waste of time and its conclusion was as obvious as obvious can be.
Oh - and I doubt it will make any difference at all. The dinner menu looked nice, though.
Last edited by Poodle on Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 11951
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:18 am

Maybe they want their 49 kajillion....

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10846
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:43 am

I suspect that the 49 kajillion (that's £39 billion in UK money) is already spoken for - the magic March 29th date is the delimiter for that. I didn't hear anything from last night's circus which delayed that payment.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 11951
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:52 am

Poodle wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:43 am
I suspect that the 49 kajillion (that's £39 billion in UK money) is already spoken for - the magic March 29th date is the delimiter for that. I didn't hear anything from last night's circus which delayed that payment.
Surely that was just a minor oversight... ;) ... and the EU will suspend that invoice. :roll:

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5180
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:32 am

The Referendum was a clear statement that the UK is undecided, not that it wants a Brexit.

Any other reading of the result is disingenuous.

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10846
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:34 am

Ah - I neglected to say that all of these date changes are totally dependent upon Parliament accepting Mrs May's proposed deal. If they don't (and it's not likely) then it's all back to square one and March 29th.

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10846
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:43 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:32 am
The Referendum was a clear statement that the UK is undecided, not that it wants a Brexit.

Any other reading of the result is disingenuous.
That's absolute BS, EM, and you know it. In which universe is a majority not a majority? The terms of the referendum, known to all voters before they ever set foot in any polling station, were that a simple majority would win. In your world, every Parliament would be a hung Parliament on the grounds that majorities mean nothing. This appears to be a developing problem in this world - let's all redefine words so that they mean what we want them to mean whenever it's convenient. Shame on you!

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5180
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:56 am

Poodle, please don't be daft.

in democracy, a majority doesn't get to ignore the will of 48% of its population. But that is exactly way they are doing.
If the result is so close, it is NOT a decision.

And this is obvious, since the referendum was never binding.

A clear political MINORITY wants Brexit, and they aren't even in agreement about what Brexit is.

Again, it is simply not true that the UK wants Brexit.
Part of its population did, but not the country as a whole.

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10846
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:15 am

Some minor points ...
Now you are being silly. As I've explained on this very section of this very forum, the result of the referendum was passed into law by the UK Parliament. That makes the RESULT of the referendum legally binding.
I appreciate your political viewpoint, EM, but I have to ask - how do you know what the UK wants? What do you mean by 'the country as a whole'? How is a close result NOT a decision? What is your understanding of the concept of democracy? Why do you think that the will of a minority, no matter how large a minority, should hold sway over the will of a majority, no matter how small?
Why do you think that the representatives we send to Parliament after every General Election should not be allowed to execute the will of the electorate?
You are taking up a ridiculous standpoint under which a single dissenting voice should be allowed to devalue a majority choice - and if you can possibly try to deny that, how do you justify your sense of size?
It's nonsense.

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5180
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:26 am

That is a BIG difference, Poodle.

You just agreed that it was the political will of the government to use the referendum as the means to justify a Brexit.

That DOESN'T make it the will of the people. This is not a silly distinction.

What you are supporting is Tyranny of the Majority, and the slimmest majority at that.
That is why in most cases, democracies demand a 2/3 majority for decisions on the scale of Brexit.

It is nonsense to claim that the UK government has a clear mandate for Brexit from the referendum.


In fact, the very next election made it abundantly clear that there isn't widespread support for Brexit. Why aren't representatives allowed to execute the will to postpone Leave until things are more clear?

The lack of unity in government is proof that there is no true will for Brexit at the current moment.

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10846
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:29 am

You're not, by any chance, from a country which practices proportional representation, are you? I have assumed, I must admit, that you're British.

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5180
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:36 am

Poodle wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:29 am
You're not, by any chance, from a country which practices proportional representation, are you? I have assumed, I must admit, that you're British.
Actually, I have plenty of UK relatives.

But my point, which you don't seem toi grasp, is that the Referendum WAS NOT AN ELECTION! It was NOT a mandate.
It is just wrong to claim that it was.

If you think politicians need to listen to it, why not to the many petitions to stop Brexit?

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10846
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:53 am

Ah - so you are. That explains it. Simply put, the UK operates a first past the post system in all elections and, unless specifically stated otherwise, in referenda. No quibbling - a straightforward and simple majority, no matter how small, takes the prize. There's no point in arguing against the results of such a system (although close results always trigger a recount) - the system is there until it is changed by a simple majority voting in Parliament on that very question.
The referendum was not an election - you're correct. But, as promised under our particular democratic system (so everyone who had a brain knew what would happen) the result of the referendum was passed into law by our democratically-elected Parliament. It became an Act of Parliament. You're correct - it's not a mandate - it's a LAW which, as in any other law-abiding democracy, is there to be obeyed.
The relevant point here is that it was made clear at the time that a leave result to the referendum would be passed into law and, at that point, would become mandatory. Everyone knew this. The Leave Campaign got a simple majority in the referendum and that was duly passed into law.
You may not like that system. There are bits of UK law which I hate, but they're laws, nevertheless. I can do my best to get laws changed, if I like, by lobbying or, in extremis, by standing for Parliament myself. That's the UK system. It's as simple as that.
So you're wrong in a UK context. It's as simple as that, too.

EDIT: I would also point out that the majority of current Members of Parliament, duly elected under our first-past-the-post system, are in favour of Brexit. The current jumbled argument is about HOW we exit, not IF we exit.

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10846
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:44 pm


bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19276
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:12 pm

Poodle wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:43 am
In which universe is a majority not a majority?
Well, at least in those universes where EVERYONE doesn't vote?

Only to highlight the DENIED TRUTH THAT IS ALWAYS PRESENT: Countries, societies, any large group of people don't "think" or want anything........ITS ALWAYS A MIX OF THINGS, with political hack jobs lying for position within that mix.

Silly hoomans.

..............and, you know, for most/many/but not all issues: fraud employed to reach the goal once discovered invalidates that accomplishment. And yes Dear Friends, what else is politics in general as described above and specifically as demonstrated in the Brexit vote?

Silly hoomans.........X 2.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19276
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:16 pm

Poodle wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:44 pm
Just for Bobbo and Landrew ...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47665384
thanks Poodle. Yes, I agree: People be Stoopid ((aka: Silly Hoomans .............X 3....but its already getting "old?"....I agree)).

In your view Poodle, does the linked issue represent "anything" to do with "The Troubles" or is it more in the vein of "The Dog told me to kill people?"
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10846
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:11 pm

You know - you're a breath of fresh air, Bobbo. But, for the sake of the record - who gives a {!#%@} for rationalisation so long as people stop getting killed?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19276
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:13 pm

yaaabutt: Dogs bark at anything.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Darren Wilshak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1386
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:16 pm

Re: Brexit

Post by Darren Wilshak » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:40 pm

It was all about ticking a yes no box on an over-simplified piece of paper...

https://newsthump.com/2019/03/20/theres ... have-died/
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

AHF

User avatar
Darren Wilshak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1386
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:16 pm

Re: Brexit

Post by Darren Wilshak » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:49 pm

Oh WE ARE doing well with our democracy. Online petition reaches 3 million votes after going TITSUP on the web after the first million people logged on to express an opinion. It proposed to chuck Article 50 out of the window.

'Mrs' May ignores it. Presumably the mad old bat thinks that Brexit is like First World War mobilisation, once the process is under way it cannot be stopped. My pet theory is that she is staying on to torture us so that she can 'deliver' Brexit and go down in History as a slightly less worse Prime Sinister than David Cameron. The person who will of course be Britain's worst Prime Minister, Boris Johnson waits in the wings...

Meanwhile mad Brit truckers in Artics threaten to block one of Britain's motorways if they don't get their Brexit waaaaah diddums way in a somewhat un British and rather French way of protesting.

Tomorrow people from around the country zoom up down across etc. to that there London place to make their feelings known.

Edit: That petition that May wants or needs to ignore has now attracted 3.7 million sigs.
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

AHF

User avatar
Goody67
Regular Poster
Posts: 543
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:55 pm

Re: Brexit

Post by Goody67 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:33 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:47 pm
But you did - right here. Until this point we were sharing contradictory opinions. You went for a personal attack first.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=29850&sid=23707d35 ... 60#p702224
Don't lie.

You went for a personal attack first.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=29850&start=760#p702063
"We were the first country to attempt and to succeed in rolling back the frontiers of socialism, which is the first cousin to communism. Socialists don't like people to do things for themselves. Socialists like to get people dependent on the state! You never build a great society that way." - Margaret Thatcher

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 11951
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:35 pm

No personal attack there - please improve your reading skills.

User avatar
Goody67
Regular Poster
Posts: 543
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:55 pm

Re: Brexit

Post by Goody67 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:53 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:35 pm
No personal attack there - please improve your reading skills.
The pot calling the kettle black.

You asked me whether or not I was a worm. :?
"We were the first country to attempt and to succeed in rolling back the frontiers of socialism, which is the first cousin to communism. Socialists don't like people to do things for themselves. Socialists like to get people dependent on the state! You never build a great society that way." - Margaret Thatcher

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 11951
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:05 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:53 pm
TJrandom wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:35 pm
No personal attack there - please improve your reading skills.
The pot calling the kettle black.

You asked me whether or not I was a worm. :?
Well obviously - since your position up to that point suggested that you might indeed be incapable of use of higher brain functions. I have looked, and found no requirement that a forum member cannot be a nematode. But in that very next sentence, I assumed that you were human, and carried on. Of course I still have my doubts.

MikeN
Regular Poster
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:41 am

Re: Brexit

Post by MikeN » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:38 am

Poodle, can you explain the backstop, and which groups are for it and against it?
Also, has cancellation of the Mar 29 date been voted on already, making it eligible for the Speaker's no-re-vote rule?

I am surprised May is not going to reverse Article 50. It is possible my theory that she is a lying Remainer desperate to sabotage Brexit is wrong and instead she is just a weak negotiator who fell for every trap the EU placed in Article 50.

User avatar
Goody67
Regular Poster
Posts: 543
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:55 pm

Re: Brexit

Post by Goody67 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:01 am

TJrandom wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:05 pm
Well obviously - since your position up to that point suggested that you might indeed be incapable of use of higher brain functions. I have looked, and found no requirement that a forum member cannot be a nematode. But in that very next sentence, I assumed that you were human, and carried on. Of course I still have my doubts.
:roll:
"We were the first country to attempt and to succeed in rolling back the frontiers of socialism, which is the first cousin to communism. Socialists don't like people to do things for themselves. Socialists like to get people dependent on the state! You never build a great society that way." - Margaret Thatcher

User avatar
Balsamo
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2079
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Brexit

Post by Balsamo » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:09 am

Goody,
there is this little thing called "pm" to handle those personal disagreements, especially when those disagreements have nothing to do with the topic.
Just saying. ;)

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19276
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:15 am

Balsamo wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:09 am
Goody,
,,,,,,,,,,, nothing to do with the topic.
Just saying. ;)
Always more glaring when others are doing it. Out of hope and courtesy, I looked for a sub-forum on nematodes but this forum lacks that category. Could go with Brain, Mind, & Consciousness.

Goody: I did look for the relevance of your defense, the general description of the no-go zone, but Matt must have reference that comment from some other thread?

Always an honest debate when a word has 5 definitions commonly meaning one Def which you in fact "mean" but you defend a false claim by defaulting to one of the other definitions? Almost like: Fake News??? But I dither.....

FWIW: I value your contributions in support of my own minority views on the subject of blind thoughtless ecumenicism (sic), hate seeing you default to some lower standard. ((sic: evidently ecumenicism more formally applies only to Christian faiths????? I constantly see it applied across the major religions.))
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10846
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:52 am

MikeN wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:38 am
Poodle, can you explain the backstop, and which groups are for it and against it?
Also, has cancellation of the Mar 29 date been voted on already, making it eligible for the Speaker's no-re-vote rule?

I am surprised May is not going to reverse Article 50. It is possible my theory that she is a lying Remainer desperate to sabotage Brexit is wrong and instead she is just a weak negotiator who fell for every trap the EU placed in Article 50.
The UK and the Republic of Ireland both joined what was then the EC (I think) in 1973. The Troubles in Ireland had been going on since the 1960s, and it was the almost complete absence of an effective border (and the absolute impossibility of creating one) which facilitated the easy passage of terrorists from both sides. The Good Friday Agreement (signed by the UK and the RoI inter alia) was signed in 1998 and stopped the sectarian violence virtually overnight, and one of its major parts was an agreement not to erect any borders - easy to comply with because of the common EU membership, but that agreement is still there and does not disappear merely because one side or the other leaves the EU. So - there must be no physical border erected by the UK or the RoI in the future, and both have stated recently that they will not do it.
So, if the necessary border checks arising from the new non-EU status of the UK cannot be performed at the real border, then the 'customs border' must be moved somewhere else and, if the border must, indeed, be a physical one then the coast of Northern Ireland is the place for it to be, according to the EU. But that leaves Northern Ireland on the wrong side of the Northern Irish border and the EU's answer to this is the backstop - an area (coincidentally exactly the same size and shape as Northern Ireland) which will continue to operate under EU rules and regulations 'temporarily'.
That would be bearable if 'temporarily' could be defined, but the EU Commission insist that they must agree to any change in the 'temporary' arrangements which will be operating within a non-EU UK. Of course, the Democratic Unionist Party of NI - the very people propping up Theresa May's extremely slim majority, will countenance such an arrangement only if it applies across the whole of the UK. So, the idea is that if the UK finally leaves the EU, it remains in the EU for customs and excise purposes until the EU decides it can leave.
The EU, including the RoI, favour the backstop. The UK as a whole does not, and the DUP, as stated above, is sort of "I will if you will" about it all.
As far as I know, March 29th is still the leave date. That will only change if one of the EUs offers (from the very recent EU leaders' meeting as well as the Commission) is accepted, and all of those are predicated upon the acceptance by Parliament of whatever form of Mrs May's deal is current. That's unlikely to happen.
NOTE: Everything may have changed by the time you read this.
EDIT: Apparently, Parliament CAN vote to delay until 12th(?) April. I think that's unlikely to happen - what difference would a couple of weeks make to entrenched positions? And it would still be only Mrs May's deal on the table, complete with backstop.