Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Post by MikeN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:53 pm

>whatever the procedure is

Shouldn't you learn what the procedure is before making this statement?

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:01 pm

No. Its correct no matter what. What a silly question. NAME a procedure that would not be appropriate to follow? ==> You can't.
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Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:05 pm

How dare citizens use democracy to undo a previous democratic decision?
It's almost like they want regular elections or something.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:40 am

Goody67 wrote: I was referring to traditional skinheads, you know like the members of Slade were once upon a time.
Slade was a glam band that adopted skinhead clothing as a publicity stunt for one album. Skinheads already existed as a legacy from Mods. You didn't know that at all did you? :lol: :lol:





You never lived in London at all. Are you from Wales?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:49 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:05 pm
How dare citizens use democracy to undo a previous democratic decision?
It's almost like they want regular elections or something.
That's a interesting point, EM, if mistaken. Let's take a theoretical General Election, for instance, in which the Labour Party won with a 4% majority and the Labour leader should thereby, become Prime Minister. Lets also suppose that for whatever reason, the Labour Party was simply prevented from forming a government and so the Conservative Party kept hold of the reins. Two years later, the Conservatives are STILL in power and, despite many demonstrations and arguments in pubs and declarations of the will of the people, the Labour Party have been kept from power despite numerous pressure groups, protestations and loud demands.
Should the Labour Party not be allowed to take their rightful and legal place as Her Majesty's Government?

EDIT: People tend to forget this little thing below ...
https://services.parliament.uk/bills/20 ... rawal.html
That little thing is the Act of Parliament which passed the result of the referendum into law. Until it is repealed, we CANNOT simply decide to remain within the EU, no matter how many referenda are held. Last time I looked, there was a majority of pro-leave MPs in Parliament.

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Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:52 am

Goody67 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:03 pm
TJrandom wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:13 pm
Nope - not at all. These 'natives' can take non-emotional action to use the law, and if in the majority can block the wishes of the miniority. Thowing in 'feel uncomfortable' is simply an appeal to emotion.
You used the appeal to emotion as an excuse, yet at the same time you used the appeal to the majority.

Book an appointment with your local doctor.
I rather suspect that you don't know what you are saying. I used neither, but rather pointed out the absurdity of placing the blame for how you feel upon others based upon your emotions instead of thinking and using society’s agreed processes. What was it - 5% of people unlike you at blame for you feeling uncomfortable and causing you to avoid certain areas? Nematode or simply an inadequate individual?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:58 am

I found some recent numbers ...
Only three days ago, MPs voted by 374 to 164 to reject a plan to delay the UK's departure from the EU until 22 May 2019.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:27 am

Poodle wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:49 am
ElectricMonk wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:05 pm
How dare citizens use democracy to undo a previous democratic decision?
It's almost like they want regular elections or something.
That's a interesting point, EM, if mistaken. Let's take a theoretical General Election, for instance, in which the Labour Party won with a 4% majority and the Labour leader should thereby, become Prime Minister. Lets also suppose that for whatever reason, the Labour Party was simply prevented from forming a government and so the Conservative Party kept hold of the reins. Two years later, the Conservatives are STILL in power and, despite many demonstrations and arguments in pubs and declarations of the will of the people, the Labour Party have been kept from power despite numerous pressure groups, protestations and loud demands.
Should the Labour Party not be allowed to take their rightful and legal place as Her Majesty's Government?

EDIT: People tend to forget this little thing below ...
https://services.parliament.uk/bills/20 ... rawal.html
That little thing is the Act of Parliament which passed the result of the referendum into law. Until it is repealed, we CANNOT simply decide to remain within the EU, no matter how many referenda are held. Last time I looked, there was a majority of pro-leave MPs in Parliament.
the hole in that argument is "for whatever reason." I assume its that very reason that makes the head of the conservative party the LEGAL prime minister and labor came close, but got and deserves no banana.

similarly, ie all the rules that apply still apply, a REF can be held as the REF rules allow while at the same time Parliament turning REFs into "laws" had, have, and will and should have all the power they do. You frame this as a conflict or limitation.........but its all part of the system.

"How Dare They........" still stands.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:29 pm

A referendum can, indeed, be held, Bobbo - but its result, whatever it is, has no standing in any way unless passed into law and, as most MPs are against it, they'd vote any such bill down. Any government holding such a referendum would be taken to task for wasting public money (and a referendum is NOT cheap). It would also take a long time to even decide upon the question, let alone organising the mechanics of the whole thing. This is why we don't have a referendum every week. And then the result would be called into question because Mr and Mrs Jones forgot about it, so their voices aren't being heard, and then the government would be criticised for (... insert complaint ...) and then if Remain won, the Leavers would demand a third referendum, and the world would end and everyone would go to Hell.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:38 pm

yes.......exactly how it should/must/no other alternative work.

Those who say "we can't have another REF".......are simply wrong. Add more words to the statement, and the question changes.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Goody67 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:55 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:40 am
Goody67 wrote: I was referring to traditional skinheads, you know like the members of Slade were once upon a time.
Slade was a glam band that adopted skinhead clothing as a publicity stunt for one album. Skinheads already existed as a legacy from Mods. You didn't know that at all did you? :lol: :lol:





You never lived in London at all. Are you from Wales?
Of course I did, those are the skinheads whom I was referring to when I said that they are often judged wrongly due to misconceptions and preconceived ideas of the definition of a skinhead.

You don't know whether I lived in London or not. My personal life has absolutely nothing to do with you so stop wasting your time asking me personal questions.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Goody67 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:58 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:52 am
I rather suspect that you don't know what you are saying. I used neither, but rather pointed out the absurdity of placing the blame for how you feel upon others based upon your emotions instead of thinking and using society’s agreed processes. What was it - 5% of people unlike you at blame for you feeling uncomfortable and causing you to avoid certain areas? Nematode or simply an inadequate individual?
I think it is you who do not know what he is saying! You think that how someone feels has absolutely nothing to do with external factors. Such a suggestion is mind-boggling.
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:03 pm

You two should stop arguing "generally" and get down to brass tacks. What are either of you actually talking about? but then: those are my feelings....
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Re: Brexit

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:21 am

Goody67 wrote: I was referring to traditional skinheads, you know like the members of Slade were once upon a time.
Matthew Ellard wrote: Slade was a glam band that adopted skinhead clothing as a publicity stunt for one album. Skinheads already existed as a legacy from Mods. You didn't know that at all did you? :lol: :lol:
Goody67 wrote: Of course I did,
Nope. You didn't. Do you call the drummer's hair from Slade a skinhead haircut do you? (Perhaps you like "girly skinhead boys" in an Oscar Wilde kind of way?) :lol:
Slade.jpg
Goody67 wrote: .......those are the skinheads whom I was referring to when I said that they are often judged wrongly due to misconceptions and preconceived ideas of the definition of a skinhead.
Your lovely skin head friends who wear steel capped bover boots and belonged to the National Front? How long were you in the National Front for?
National Front Skins.jpg
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:58 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:21 am
How long were you in the National Front for? [/color]National Front Skins.jpg
Matthew!!!!
Never end a sentence with a preposition!

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Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:56 am

Goody67 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:58 pm
TJrandom wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:52 am
I rather suspect that you don't know what you are saying. I used neither, but rather pointed out the absurdity of placing the blame for how you feel upon others based upon your emotions instead of thinking and using society’s agreed processes. What was it - 5% of people unlike you at blame for you feeling uncomfortable and causing you to avoid certain areas? Nematode or simply an inadequate individual?
I think it is you who do not know what he is saying! You think that how someone feels has absolutely nothing to do with external factors. Such a suggestion is mind-boggling.
Learn to read - I didn't say or suggest that at all, but rather it isn't someone else's fault that you feel a certain way. You are responsible for your own feelings.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:55 am

The menu for this week ...
There is an EU leaders'conference on Thursday. Mrs May MUST put her deal back to Parliament before that starts - if she fails to do that, we crash out on March 29th (or, at least, that's what all the pundits say). If her deal (not particularly modified in any way) is accepted this time, she will request a short-term 'technical' extension and Brexit will proceed. If her deal is rejected yet again, then she must request a much longer extension which, even if acceptable to the EU (probably not) would make everything even murkier than it already is and would present a greater possibility that the UK would remain in the EU. To do that, May would have to get legislation passed to do away with the legislation which followed the referendum.
So many ifs.
Once again, lots depends upon the DUP of Northern Ireland. If they accept that the backstop (now accompanied by promises from the EU that it is not a method of keeping the UK within the EU indefinitely, but nothing with any legal weight) then they will vote for her deal.
Politics used to become clearer as time went on. When did that change?

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:04 pm

Ha, ha.............Fareed Zakaria just knocked the {!#%@} out of Brexit. I'm watching the show live but here is google comfirmation:

Brexit will mark the end of Britain's role as a great power - The ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/.../brex ... b8d80a1e4f_...
3 days ago - A pro-Brexit protester holds up a sign outside the Houses of Parliament in London on Thursday. (Dylan Martinez/Reuters). By Fareed Zakaria.

EDIT: well, that link no longer works and I can't find Fareeds comments so..............just unusual for Fareed to take such a "one side of the issue" position. The man has a good world view/sense of history. Heh, heh: emotions vs rationality.........emotions usually win until after the rationality sets in and some kind of recovery is attempted. Taunts from high school ring in my ears: "smooth move: exlax."
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:16 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:04 pm
Ha, ha.............Fareed Zakaria just knocked the {!#%@} out of Brexit. I'm watching the show live but here is google comfirmation:

Brexit will mark the end of Britain's role as a great power ...
I'd always sort of assumed that World War 2 did that,

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:27 pm

Yeah....that was a bump in the road for sure......but I thought Brexit was more of a 50/50 almost "equal" kind of a deal with only a slight economic hit vs cultural values being emphasized kind of chocolate vs vanilla ice cream "choice." Lots of different ways to evaluate the choice........all coming down to what is valued, and what is not. IE: no right or wrong: just values.

UNLESS AND UNTIL: ALONG with whatever "value" anyone wants to champion, you load on false statements to nudge the values along. From what I can see: the biggest fraudulent claim was how much money UK would save and perhaps how trade under WTO would be quite acceptable, meaning not cause prices to go and stay higher??

Of note, the panel discussion on Fareed mentioned that the EU would be weaker without UK but that standing strong on Brexit would make the EU stronger, more in control, of the EU members. Like I said: no reason for EU to play nice with UK...before, during..................OR POST...Brexit.

No reason to accelerate a downhill slide.............or to reject being part of a larger more stable economic union.......ha, ha.......unless your values say otherwise??? How much are values ever worth?
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Re: Brexit

Post by landrew » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:49 pm

Poodle wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:16 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:04 pm
Ha, ha.............Fareed Zakaria just knocked the {!#%@} out of Brexit. I'm watching the show live but here is google comfirmation:

Brexit will mark the end of Britain's role as a great power ...
I'd always sort of assumed that World War 2 did that,
I thought it was mostly over for them after the first world war.
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Re: Brexit

Post by landrew » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:52 pm

I think some are using Brexit as a ploy to try to raise the UK's profile in the EU.
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:56 pm

Two bumps and a long slide with a sharpe decline after raising their profile? Yep.....thats one description.

World influence: really does seem to correlate to number of people under control/support. Evidently, being in a commonwealth doesn't have the kind of control/support required to count?
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Re: Brexit

Post by MikeN » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:30 pm

Bobbo, suppose the procedure is there is a referendum, when Prince Charles calls for one.

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Re: Brexit

Post by MikeN » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:32 pm

Poodle, there is a rule of Parliament that you can't vote twice on the same matter. The Speaker might not allow a third vote.
Also, is it the case that any single EU country can block an extension?
I"m wondering if Boris Johnson will engage in some collusion...

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Re: Brexit

Post by Goody67 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:44 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:56 am
Learn to read - I didn't say or suggest that at all, but rather it isn't someone else's fault that you feel a certain way. You are responsible for your own feelings.
Learn to be more coherent.

One's feelings can be, and often are, because of external factors.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Goody67 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:46 pm

Nope. You didn't. Do you call the drummer's hair from Slade a skinhead haircut do you? (Perhaps you like "girly skinhead boys" in an Oscar Wilde kind of way?)
I referred to a band that used the skinhead image and were not Nazis.
Your lovely skin head friends who wear steel capped bover boots and belonged to the National Front? How long were you in the National Front for?
You really have lost the plot.

I don't give a monkey's about the NF and have always been a member of the Conservative Party.

Again, no arguments and just petty little name calling.
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Re: Brexit

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:06 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:04 pm
Ha, ha.............Fareed Zakaria just knocked the {!#%@} out of Brexit. I'm watching the show live but here is google comfirmation:

Brexit will mark the end of Britain's role as a great power - The ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/.../brex ... b8d80a1e4f_...
3 days ago - A pro-Brexit protester holds up a sign outside the Houses of Parliament in London on Thursday. (Dylan Martinez/Reuters). By Fareed Zakaria.

EDIT: well, that link no longer works and I can't find Fareeds comments so..............just unusual for Fareed to take such a "one side of the issue" position. The man has a good world view/sense of history. Heh, heh: emotions vs rationality.........emotions usually win until after the rationality sets in and some kind of recovery is attempted. Taunts from high school ring in my ears: "smooth move: exlax."
Seems that link was just a copy pasta gone bad. :-P This should work.
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Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:16 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:44 pm
TJrandom wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:56 am
Learn to read - I didn't say or suggest that at all, but rather it isn't someone else's fault that you feel a certain way. You are responsible for your own feelings.
Learn to be more coherent.

One's feelings can be, and often are, because of external factors.
Why bother? Your intentional dishonesty, or is it simple ignorance, is on display. :roll:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Nessie » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:28 pm

MikeN wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:32 pm
Poodle, there is a rule of Parliament that you can't vote twice on the same matter. The Speaker might not allow a third vote.
Also, is it the case that any single EU country can block an extension?
I"m wondering if Boris Johnson will engage in some collusion...
May has been trying to get round the rule about repeated votes by just changing part of her deal and the wording. One of the recent votes was on a proposal to try and stop that from happening, but it was defeated. So, she can just alter the deal slightly and the wording and resubmit it for another vote.

It is the case any EU country can block the extension. So, Latvia could just say no and that is it, the UK leaves on the 29th.
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:42 pm

How long before "the Troubles" reignite? I see it this way:

Brexit with No Deal.......so a standard border is put up between the EU and N Ireland purely for trade purposes, which means collecting tariffs and denying entry etc. Its a Universal Law that when such barriers are erected that a black market/smuggling operation will be set up to profit from the set-up. and the smugglers will be shot at, killed, arrested etc because of the EU and Non-EU border IE: having nothing to do with UK vs Ireland or Protestant vs Catholic or Non-Resident Land Owners vs tennant Farmers and all the standard Troubles stuff. "...........................but.................." it will be said that the Troubles are Back..........and it will come larded on with many of those tropes and old injuries and even some old debt settling.

Humans are like this.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:42 am

Goody67 wrote: I referred to a band that used the skinhead image and were not Nazis.
Slade is a glam band that one dressed up as skins for a publicity stunt. They were always a glam band. You haven't got a clue who Slade is do you?

Are you next going to tell me Johnny Rotten was a Teddy Boy? :lol: :lol:
Teddy Boy.jpg
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Re: Brexit

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:51 am

Goody67 wrote: ......and have always been a member of the Conservative Party.
Have you sent a letter to Prime Minister May to complain about the Conservative Party's progressive (socialist) personal tax scales? :lol: :lol:

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Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:59 am

It's almost amusing that having another referendum is undemocratic, but asking Parliament to vote on the same deal over and over is not.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:56 am

Well - here's a turn-up for the books ...
From the BBC ... "Former foreign secretary Boris Johnson says it would be "absurd" to hold a vote on the PM's Brexit deal before attempting further talks with the EU".

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Re: Brexit

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:08 am

One of the reasons Lydon is wearing that drape is that its left over shop stock from one of McLaren's previous 430 Kings Road Chelsea, London incarnations - before the 'Sex' or the 'Seditionaries' and finally 'SEDS' phase of the shop - the 'Let it Rock' venture.

Image

In some pics you can see punks wearing crepes or brothel creeper shoes and its ditto for that too. McLaren stocked these as well at Let it Rock Which I believe did annoy a lot of London Teds who Malcolm had previously sold them too. He was now flogging the same gear to the punks. Only the Teds considered them their footwear. Its absurd really.

Image
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

AHF

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Re: Brexit

Post by Goody67 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:03 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:51 am
Have you sent a letter to Prime Minister May to complain about the Conservative Party's progressive (socialist) personal tax scales? :lol: :lol:
You're showing your ignorance the more you post. A progressive tax system is not exclusive to socialism.

I told you I have been a member for the Conservative Party because you seem hell-bent on trying to associate me with the NF. I'm not surprised though because there are many lefties like yourself who are complete tossers and describe anyone as a "fascist", "white supremacist", "Nazi", etc, who do not agree with your views.
"Good friends, good books, and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life." - Mark Twain

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Goody67
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Re: Brexit

Post by Goody67 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:05 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:42 am
Slade is a glam band that one dressed up as skins for a publicity stunt. They were always a glam band. You haven't got a clue who Slade is do you?

Are you next going to tell me Johnny Rotten was a Teddy Boy? :lol: :lol:
You seem to be taking this way out of context. I used Slade as an example of people who dressed as skinheads (the subculture was very popular in many parts of the UK in the late 1960s and early 1970s) and were not Nazis. Why are you trying to turn this into something it is not?

The joke is actually on you because you are missing my point.
"Good friends, good books, and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life." - Mark Twain

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Goody67
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Re: Brexit

Post by Goody67 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:30 am

TJrandom wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:16 pm
Why bother? Your intentional dishonesty, or is it simple ignorance, is on display. :roll:
It's not my fault that you're not making any sense. :shock:
"Good friends, good books, and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life." - Mark Twain

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TJrandom
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Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:37 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:30 am
TJrandom wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:16 pm
Why bother? Your intentional dishonesty, or is it simple ignorance, is on display. :roll:
It's not my fault that you're not making any sense. :shock:
Correct - not making sense to a nematode. :roll: