Brexit

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OutOfBreath
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Re: Brexit

Post by OutOfBreath » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:40 am

Set up a trade deal selling 2 bushels of wool to Tuvalu, and I suppose the factor will be just about infinity!

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Re: Brexit

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:10 am

Poodle wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:40 am
There is some good news, though - Spain and the UK are about to sign a treaty confirming Gibraltar's status as UK territory.
Be nice if the Brits would take back Washington, DC, too.

Washington, like the British parliament, is totally FUBAR.
https://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/FUBAR
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Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:24 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:10 am
Poodle wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:40 am
There is some good news, though - Spain and the UK are about to sign a treaty confirming Gibraltar's status as UK territory.
Be nice if the Brits would take back Washington, DC, too.

Washington, like the British parliament, is totally FUBAR.
https://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/FUBAR
Or maybe just the GOP with Faux news thrown in - but that is redundant. :roll:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:43 pm

“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:53 am

Interesting. There's nothing within that document with which I would substantially disagree - so I was very surprised when I spotted who authored it.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:57 am

I got about half way through. Too general. Political Pablum...............heh, heh........the very reason you can't disagree with it. IT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:26 pm

Mrs May returned from discussions with the EU Commission again today. She had nothing new to say to them and they had nothing new to say to her so, predictably, there were no surprises. The next Parliamentary vote on her unchanged deal is to be held on the 12th and it will, fairly obviously, be voted down as nothing has changed since the last no vote. Her deal is dead in the water and the EU Commission's counter-offer (ie the backstop) is dead in the water.
23 days to go and No-deal Brexit here we come. Unless someone blinks.
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Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:09 pm

Don't forget a good pair of gloves, a spade, hoe, rake, bucket, hose, ... and all UK made if possible.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:22 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:09 pm
Don't forget a good pair of gloves, a spade, hoe, rake, bucket, hose, ... and all UK made if possible.
I have two greenhouses and a third-of-an-acre of land (OK - it may be a quarter - but it's biggish) in which to grow emergency veggies. But as I use it like that anyway, I shouldn't see too much difference. Apart from the zombies, of course.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:31 pm

Zombies eat ................BRAINS. Not carrots.....or do you have them confused with cauliflower?

Close call: its on my list to make pan fried brussel sprouts. Never done that before but its been on tv about 5 times in the last month.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:34 pm

They're actually very nice. bobbo - but a tad on the difficult side. A couple of seconds over and they're burned.
Brussels sprouts, I mean, as opposed to brains.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:39 pm

.........or...........brains too?

Had a friend from Tennessee and he swore by squirrel brains all fried up........with dandelions if IIRC.

Ha, ha.........Brexit will be a good introduction to "End of Days" prepping.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:12 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:09 pm
Don't forget a good pair of gloves, a spade, hoe, rake, bucket, hose, ... and all UK made if possible.
:lol: :lol:
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:15 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:31 pm
Zombies eat ................BRAINS. Not carrots.....or do you have them confused with cauliflower?

Close call: its on my list to make pan fried brussel sprouts. Never done that before but its been on tv about 5 times in the last month.
I have a rule never to eat vegetables named after a city (Brussels sprouts, Jerusalem artichokes, and the like---they are uniformly wretched-tasting). The only exception is Chicago deep-pan-dish pizza, the world's greatest vegetable. I get the Windy City version at Pizzeria Uno about once a month. (Hmm, I think it's time for a revisit...)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:47 pm

We're now in an interesting situation. The Commission is requesting Mrs May to come up with acceptable changes to the backstop arrangements whilst, at precisely the same time, Mrs May is requesting the Commission to come up with acceptable changes to the backstop arrangements.
I can only assume that either a) we are very near to an agreement or b) we are nowhere near an agreement.
And time is becoming ever so short.

EDIT: Michel Barnier's (Chief Negotiator) explanation is that the UK can leave the backstop any time it wants, but Northern Ireland must stay within the backstop. The full title of the UK is 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. So - well said, Michel - clear as a bell and twice as helpful.

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Re: Brexit

Post by MikeN » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:22 pm

No deal Brexit seems preferable. As I understand it, May's deal calls for UK to give EU 60 billion a year to be part of the trade area. Either this is bad deal, or Trump should be able to get Mexico to pay for the wall by check.

As for Irish backstop, they can just leave the border relatively open, and get free trade with no deal via Northern Ireland.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:54 pm

Poodle wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:47 pm
Michel Barnier's (Chief Negotiator) explanation is that the UK can leave the backstop any time it wants, but Northern Ireland must stay within the backstop. The full title of the UK is 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. So - well said, Michel - clear as a bell and twice as helpful.
Huh???? How's that going to work? Last I heard, Northern Ireland wasn't planning to leave the UK, so how can the UK leave the backstop without taking Northern Ireland along?

Never mind, my poor addled brain would never be able to understand it. I'll just wait till the end of the month and then see what new facts I need to absorb to stay informed about the wider world. (Or, I could join so many of my fellow Americans and just ignore anything outside the American Empire.)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:11 am

I've said this before, UoG - It's Hotel California. You can check out any time you like. But you can never leave.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:23 am

Poodle wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:11 am
I've said this before, UoG - It's Hotel California. You can check out any time you like. But you can never leave.
I get it: a step above Roach Motel. At least you can check out. (I may be alluding to an American commercial here that didn't get across the water. Let me know, and I'll explain it, or some other Yank will.)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by Goody67 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:36 am



A great speech by Enoch Powell about the EEC/EU.


A man who wishes the United Kingdom to remain a part of the European Economic Community, and who thereby commits himself to this nation becoming one province of a European state, can be as honourable as the next. I have never denied that, provided that he openly acknowledges and professes the consequences of his opinion. He can be filled with benevolence towards his fellows and genuinely convinced that as individuals the peoples inhabiting this territory would enjoy important advantages as European provincials which they cannot have as British nationals. But one thing he cannot be. He cannot be a patriot; for the basis of his action and intention is the conviction that this country is no longer, or ought no longer to be a nation state whose people acknowledge no external human authority and owe no higher secular allegiance.
- Enoch Powell speech on 29 December 1976,

The sooner the UK leaves, the better.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:50 pm

Well - thanks for digging those up, Goody67. Those speeches were made by a potentially great politician and certainly a brilliant orator, and his predictions on the European situation have, very largely, turned into truth. I had a lot of respect for Enoch Powell when I was a student, even though my personal politics lay far to the left of his at the time. It is unfortunate that he is associated more with his infamous 'Rivers of Blood' speech than anything else he ever said. So let's not get the two matters confused, eh?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:10 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:23 am
Poodle wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:11 am
I've said this before, UoG - It's Hotel California. You can check out any time you like. But you can never leave.
I get it: a step above Roach Motel. At least you can check out. (I may be alluding to an American commercial here that didn't get across the water. Let me know, and I'll explain it, or some other Yank will.)
I had to Google it as you're correct - it never crossed the water. But yes - now I understand "a step above Roach Motel".

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:15 pm

Just in case (is the case possible?) anyone doesn't know ...
The Eagles ... Hotel California. One of the best songs ever written, in my ever so humble opinion. I mean - Tiffany twisted!

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Re: Brexit

Post by Goody67 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:25 am

Poodle wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:50 pm
Well - thanks for digging those up, Goody67. Those speeches were made by a potentially great politician and certainly a brilliant orator, and his predictions on the European situation have, very largely, turned into truth. I had a lot of respect for Enoch Powell when I was a student, even though my personal politics lay far to the left of his at the time. It is unfortunate that he is associated more with his infamous 'Rivers of Blood' speech than anything else he ever said. So let's not get the two matters confused, eh?
A couple more videos of Powell that are relevant to the subject:





I like and respect Enoch Powell. I think he would have been a great Prime Minister.

You hit the nail on the head, it is a shame that many people when they hear the name “Enoch Powell” associate him with racism and only think of his infamous Rivers of Blood speech. There was so much more to the man. Powell was not racist. Quite surprising for the BBC, 64% of the audience in 1998 said that Powell was not racist. Powell simply warned against mass immigration and the figures he stated were accurate. I think you’ll find that those who describe Powell as a “racist” don’t have a clue about what his views were at all.

By the way, most of the British people actually agreed with Powell’s Rivers of Blood speech in 1968. He became a national figure and received thousands of letters showing support for his speech. Heath even stated years later that Powell had a point about warning of the dangers of mass immigration.

Powell was very intelligent and a great intellect. I’m going to assume that you are already aware of his academic credentials (including being the youngest Professor of Greek at the age of 25) and his service during WW2.

Back in the day quite a few politicians, both left-wing and right-wing, were against the EEC/EU. Enoch Powell and Tony Benn were both against the EEC/EU and were actually close friends.

If you haven’t already, I recommend you to read Simon Heffer’s biography of him.

A small anecdote about Powell, he was the person who got me interested in India many years ago.
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:31 am

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:25 am
Powell was not racist. ..... Powell simply warned against mass immigration and the figures he stated were accurate. I think you’ll find that those who describe Powell as a “racist” don’t have a clue about what his views were at all.
I don't know Powell at all but being "against mass immigration" is the very definition of being racist that many people do use as the issue of migration/immigration whether mass or minor is discussed even today. I use the same concern for inviting "Muslims" from the Middle East into the USA today. My concern is simply "the mass" and "inconsistent values' not about anything else. Is that still racist? My racist roots are Caucasian/English but I would have the same concern about inviting Thousands of Englishmen into the USA if they wanted to impose a set of religious beliefs on the rest of the population or even if they just wanted to maintain those beliefs on their own community. Racist? Anit-Religion?? Pro-Rights of Individuals over the State??? Even if some group is "exactly like me"....I'm against immigration as it lessens my ability to demand more wages for my labor. Always interesting to note what arguments are lined up by our greedy alreadytoorich 1%'er to keep their fraud going.........and most of us buy into it.

Its the same Moose Turd Pie just sliced into different shapes.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:03 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:31 am
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:25 am
Powell was not racist. ..... Powell simply warned against mass immigration and the figures he stated were accurate. I think you’ll find that those who describe Powell as a “racist” don’t have a clue about what his views were at all.
I don't know Powell at all but being "against mass immigration" is the very definition of being racist that many people do use as the issue of migration/immigration whether mass or minor is discussed even today. I use the same concern for inviting "Muslims" from the Middle East into the USA today. My concern is simply "the mass" and "inconsistent values' not about anything else. Is that still racist? My racist roots are Caucasian/English but I would have the same concern about inviting Thousands of Englishmen into the USA if they wanted to impose a set of religious beliefs on the rest of the population or even if they just wanted to maintain those beliefs on their own community. Racist? Anit-Religion?? Pro-Rights of Individuals over the State??? Even if some group is "exactly like me"....I'm against immigration as it lessens my ability to demand more wages for my labor. Always interesting to note what arguments are lined up by our greedy alreadytoorich 1%'er to keep their fraud going.........and most of us buy into it.

Its the same Moose Turd Pie just sliced into different shapes.
Let it be stated clearly that the number of immigrants a country can assimilate in a brief time is finite, and, however badly it may reflect on the native populations, that's the way people are. The limits of their tolerance have to be taken into account in any rational policy. But I don't think those limits have been exceeded in the US with either Muslim or Mexican/Central American immigration. We could take many more than we do, if the demagogues in the current administration were not trying to exploit nativism for political profit.

I'm most worried at the moment about the fate of American Muslims. The Nazis started by laying down a propaganda baseline that said the Jews were a poison in their body politic. That is EXACTLY what the Trump Administration has now succeeded in doing relative to Muslims. I have neighbors, even here in "tolerant" Vermont, who want to deport ALL Muslims and allow no more to come here. And this lily-white state is still over 97% northern European in ethnicity. True, the county I'm in (Chittenden) has taken in a few hundred African refugees, but they are being successfully assimilated, and people are getting used to seeing black women covered from head to toe in flowing garments on the streets. I don't know how the Ship of State is going to navigate these shoals. My role is just to do what I can to calm down my hysterical neighbors and make the newcomers feel welcome.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:48 pm

Here's a BBC article which contains a flowchart explaining where we are and where things could go. It appears that there is only a single route which leads to a deal. If anyone manages to decipher it in a meaningful manner, please let me know ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46393399

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Re: Brexit

Post by Goody67 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:37 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:03 am
Let it be stated clearly that the number of immigrants a country can assimilate in a brief time is finite, and, however badly it may reflect on the native populations, that's the way people are. The limits of their tolerance have to be taken into account in any rational policy.
That's subjective. Marxists and their kind want open borders ("Workers of the world, unite!") and nationalists want to stop and control immigration.
But I don't think those limits have been exceeded in the US with either Muslim or Mexican/Central American immigration.
REALLY??? :shock:

Two of the main reasons why Trump was able to gain so much support was because he openly stated that he wanted to stop illegal immigration and to build a wall to control the immigration into the country from Mexico/Central America and to also sort out the problem with Islam.

Nevertheless, it is subjective as to whether or not any country has allowed too many immigrants - there are people who wish to stop all immigration and/or get rid of immigrants and there are people who want no borders.
We could take many more than we do, if the demagogues in the current administration were not trying to exploit nativism for political profit.
How many more?

Good luck trying to answer that question...

Has it never crossed your mind that many immigrants also exploit the America?
I'm most worried at the moment about the fate of American Muslims. The Nazis started by laying down a propaganda baseline that said the Jews were a poison in their body politic. That is EXACTLY what the Trump Administration has now succeeded in doing relative to Muslims.
I normally enjoy reading your posts, but this just screams hyperbole and utter nonsense. For someone who claims that the current administration in America is full of "demagogues" to then try and equate what the Nazis thought of the Jews to what Trump has said about Muslims is ridiculous.

There is no comparison between the Nazis and Trump.

May I ask, what Islamic books have you read? Instead of being worried about "American Muslims", maybe you should be worried about native Americans who are genuinely worried about the types of people being allowed into America. Has the past not taught you anything?
I have neighbors, even here in "tolerant" Vermont, who want to deport ALL Muslims and allow no more to come here. And this lily-white state is still over 97% northern European in ethnicity.
But, even Trump has never said that he wants to deport all Muslims. All he has said that he wants to halt Muslim immigration into America and to tackle the problem of Islamic extremism.
True, the county I'm in (Chittenden) has taken in a few hundred African refugees, but they are being successfully assimilated, and people are getting used to seeing black women covered from head to toe in flowing garments on the streets.
How do you know?
I don't know how the Ship of State is going to navigate these shoals. My role is just to do what I can to calm down my hysterical neighbors and make the newcomers feel welcome.
Such as?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:50 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:37 pm
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:03 am
Let it be stated clearly that the number of immigrants a country can assimilate in a brief time is finite, and, however badly it may reflect on the native populations, that's the way people are. The limits of their tolerance have to be taken into account in any rational policy.
That's subjective. Marxists and their kind want open borders ("Workers of the world, unite!") and nationalists want to stop and control immigration.
Of course it is. Individual people have different levels of tolerance. What's the point?
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:37 pm
But I don't think those limits have been exceeded in the US with either Muslim or Mexican/Central American immigration.
REALLY??? :shock:

Two of the main reasons why Trump was able to gain so much support was because he openly stated that he wanted to stop illegal immigration and to build a wall to control the immigration into the country from Mexico/Central America and to also sort out the problem with Islam.

Nevertheless, it is subjective as to whether or not any country has allowed too many immigrants - there are people who wish to stop all immigration and/or get rid of immigrants and there are people who want no borders.
Yeah. Once again, SO WHAT??? I didn't state or imply anything different from what you are saying here. All I did was give my own (SUBJECTIVE!) impression of what the limit might be. It's also true that the Obama administration had been rolling back the number of Mexicans living illegally in the United States for the eight years previous to the Trump presidency. The issue wasn't a major one until Trump whipped up a hysteria about it in order to get elected. The problem was being handled.
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:37 pm
We could take many more than we do, if the demagogues in the current administration were not trying to exploit nativism for political profit.
How many more?

Good luck trying to answer that question...
Of course, that's the issue. But it's one thing to do it in a climate of rationality, and quite another in a climate of rage stimulated by a demagogue.
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:37 pm
Has it never crossed your mind that many immigrants also exploit the America?
Where does this question come from? Why do you rhetorically imply that I've never thought about this? You don't know me.
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:37 pm
I'm most worried at the moment about the fate of American Muslims. The Nazis started by laying down a propaganda baseline that said the Jews were a poison in their body politic. That is EXACTLY what the Trump Administration has now succeeded in doing relative to Muslims.
I normally enjoy reading your posts, but this just screams hyperbole and utter nonsense. For someone who claims that the current administration in America is full of "demagogues" to then try and equate what the Nazis thought of the Jews to what Trump has said about Muslims is ridiculous.

There is no comparison between the Nazis and Trump.
Of COURSE there isn't...yet! As Benjamin Franklin said, "It is best to take alarm at the FIRST attempt on our liberties." The Trump Administration has in every way encouraged bigotry against Muslims. Trump knows the buttons to push. Of course, he's not going to come out and say (as Nazi propaganda did) that Muslims are a poison in the system. He doesn't have to. There are plenty of his followers to do that, especially among evangelical Christians. The road to hell is one that curves very gradually, so that it looks reasonably straight at any given point. But the base has been laid down. There is now a solid layer of anti-Muslim hatred all through the country.
Jimmy Swaggart wrote: You know what we ought to do? We ought to take every single Muslim student in every college in this nation and ship them back to where they came from.
But if Muslims are a bad example, consider also LBGT people, another minority with no real power, which Trump despises and does everything he can legally do to torment them. They also are a target of his mindless evangelical followers. Obviously, it isn't too bad...yet! But we need to stay on top of it.

(Parenthetically, I also enjoy reading your posts and am grateful to you for aiding me in my attempt to learn more about the Holocaust. So, I hope we can keep this debate from getting too acrimonious. Whatever you care to reply, I feel that, with this post, I will have said my piece and will shut up and let you have the last word.)
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:37 pm
May I ask, what Islamic books have you read? Instead of being worried about "American Muslims", maybe you should be worried about native Americans who are genuinely worried about the types of people being allowed into America. Has the past not taught you anything?
If you are referring to Islamic terrorists, I'm not naïve. We need to vet people very carefully for any signs of terrorist connections. But we were already doing that quite effectively when Obama was president. We didn't need a President who whips up fear of terrorists.
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:37 pm
I have neighbors, even here in "tolerant" Vermont, who want to deport ALL Muslims and allow no more to come here. And this lily-white state is still over 97% northern European in ethnicity.
But, even Trump has never said that he wants to deport all Muslims. All he has said that he wants to halt Muslim immigration into America and to tackle the problem of Islamic extremism.
Yes, that's all he literally SAID. But look at what his evangelical supporters say about them. And, again, he tried to impose a blanket ban on all people from predominantly Muslim countries (except, ironically, the ones who came from select countries, including the one that furnished the 9/11 terrorists).
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:37 pm
True, the county I'm in (Chittenden) has taken in a few hundred African refugees, but they are being successfully assimilated, and people are getting used to seeing black women covered from head to toe in flowing garments on the streets.
How do you know?
It's quite easy to tell. Some years ago, when these women walked down the street, they attracted stares. I noticed those stares. Nowadays, they don't attract stares. It's become routine to see them on the street.
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:37 pm
I don't know how the Ship of State is going to navigate these shoals. My role is just to do what I can to calm down my hysterical neighbors and make the newcomers feel welcome.
Such as?
Talking to my neighbors and talking to the newcomers.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:05 am

Well - I'm not really sure whether to laugh at this one or be mortified ...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... former-pm/

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:17 am

Poodle wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:05 am
Well - I'm not really sure whether to laugh at this one or be mortified ...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... former-pm/
Is there anything "wrong" with "Remainers" working with other Remainers to Remain? I can see laughing or mortifying...but probably for different reasons. Its all about political/cultural/values differences .........or has some connection been made now to Patriotism?
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Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:18 am

CGP Grey has two short videos explaining the Brexit dilemma quite well, in my opinion:




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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:26 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:50 pm
As Benjamin Franklin said, "It is best to take alarm at the FIRST attempt on our liberties."
How light is your trigger finger? "I think" it is folly to invite groups of people into your country who "do not share" your basic values. The basic value at play with Muslims is the value of Constitutitional Rights to be free from religion vs the Main and constant pull of Muslims to impose Sharia on everyone. Of course....when they are 3% of the population, they don't try to take over the country.........just the taxis on the late shift at the airport. So...failing to adopt american values....they become a constant source of ill will and discontent for their true believers who feel suppressed not being allowed to suppress others as they feel commanded to do.

Its only racists to say so as the notion applies to the numbers who don't agree. IOW: a position not vacated because it is racist. Its also: true.

I've never heard a good explanation for what "good" immigration does. Its like putting your foot out from under the covers on a cold night: it feels good when you bring it back under? Immigration is good because we are a stronger country when we overcome the ills of immigration?

Its tribe support all the way down.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:32 am

Here's a set of responses to a survey. It's just about exactly what I would have expected ...
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/explore-by- ... t-process/

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:53 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:18 am
CGP Grey has two short videos explaining the Brexit dilemma quite well, in my opinion:



They're pretty good illustrations, EM - except for one error. The UK is NOT insisting upon the erection of a 'wall' between the RoI and Northern Ireland. The UK has consistently said that there are ways of controlling that border with no physical structure. They're pretty hi-tech solutions, but they do work (ie they are working) elsewhere. Certainly the notion that a part of the UK could be put under the unilateral control of a third party is fairy dust.
Apart from that, the videos are good representations of actuality, and that's the reason for a small majority of the UK population saying that a no-deal Brexit is the only feasible plan. Anything else, they say, leaves the UK in Noddyland.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:23 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:26 am
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:50 pm
As Benjamin Franklin said, "It is best to take alarm at the FIRST attempt on our liberties."
How light is your trigger finger? "I think" it is folly to invite groups of people into your country who "do not share" your basic values. The basic value at play with Muslims is the value of Constitutitional Rights to be free from religion vs the Main and constant pull of Muslims to impose Sharia on everyone. Of course....when they are 3% of the population, they don't try to take over the country.........just the taxis on the late shift at the airport. So...failing to adopt american values....they become a constant source of ill will and discontent for their true believers who feel suppressed not being allowed to suppress others as they feel commanded to do.

Its only racists to say so as the notion applies to the numbers who don't agree. IOW: a position not vacated because it is racist. Its also: true.

I've never heard a good explanation for what "good" immigration does. Its like putting your foot out from under the covers on a cold night: it feels good when you bring it back under? Immigration is good because we are a stronger country when we overcome the ills of immigration?

Its tribe support all the way down.
Yes, I recognize that many people will consider me alarmist about the anti-Muslim propaganda being disseminated right now. I'm guided by the fact that that WAS the first step in the Nazi program: Get the word out that the Jews are poisonous vermin. It MAY not go beyond that in the US. I hope not, but I'd rather try to deal with it now than later, when some gun-toting vigilantes start shooting at peaceful Muslims. The slant of the Trump administration is very clear: They decry ANY violence committed BY black people, especially against the police, but Trump has never, even once, expressed any outrage over the many attacks on Muslims that take place all over the country, as well as the many minor attempts at harassment of them. (In Arkansas, locals purchased all the land around a mosque and filled it with pigs. Just one example.)

I gather you don't like diversity as much as I do. Well, OK, but unless you are willing to vet people by asking them what their religion is and making laws that explicitly deny rights to members of certain religions, the program you espouse is unworkable. You speak of "inviting" people into the country. We aren't going out and advertising to get Muslims to come here, but we (like ALL countries) do accept immigrants. At least we USED to; if Trump and his nativist supporters have their way, we'll pull the ladder up on that. And if you think his evangelical supporters hate only Muslims, think again: They'd like to require a belief in God as a condition of having any civil rights. There was a time, just after the Civil War, when various states tried to arrest Robert Ingersoll for going around and lecturing on agnosticism. They'd still like to REQUIRE the teaching of creationism in high-school science classes.

All this, as I said, is unworkable: Making certain beliefs (or their absence) a requirement for admission to the country simply won't keep out any terrorists. Anybody can SAY they hold the right beliefs in order to get into the country. And some of the terrorists are already here, native-born Americans recruited over the Internet.

I won't argue that Islamic values are basically peaceful. There's too much in the Quran that contradicts that position, and I think it's a horrible religion. But what should our POLICY be? That's the question. We HAVE to co-exist with Islam. Right now, that's not the direction we are going. We're engaged in dozens of countries, multiplying our enemies among the Muslims of the world, in a futile effort to kill ALL of the ones who hate us. That's the strategy that didn't work in Viet Nam, and it's not going to work any better on a global scale.
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:01 pm

Thanks UoG, as always very thoughtful. I disagree..........at the margin where issues not seldom addressed due to political correctness, new definitions, new issues etc. But I would like a round or two with you on subject BECAUSE.......you might move me off my best thinking on the subject? But.......I don't want to hijack this thread more than we have.

Of note, I did find the previous thread on topic and I AM SURPRISED it is now almost 4 years old.......feels like only 2 years ago? My memory still serves me otherwise: I think Poodle was closer to your position than mine until the poll reports of how many Muslims support Sharia law. I could well be reading into that........but I was also shocked at how Shria most Muslims are. Heh, heh: the very basis of my concern, and I think you recognize it as well..........so.....it can be an irritated subject to discuss, but I will take it to that older thread with the last few posts copied there.

I do assume you have much better things to think about...............but just incase it rains and dog eats your crossword of the day.......
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=26252&p=701240#p701240
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Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Poodle, you are just wrong there:
I assume you are talking about sensor grids, cameras etc., but in the case of NI/I, those would have to go through people's gardens.
There is no space to put any kind of staggered barrier - even a physical one will be hard to erect again.

The UK wants the pie and eat it, which is just not possible.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Goody67 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:22 pm



The impassioned intervention came after Ms Truss, who has backed Prime Minister David Cameron's recommendation Britain should stay in the EU, outlined the case defending the EU deal negotiated last week in Brussels.

She replied:
I'm sorry but I can't accept Liz's argument that they're trying to reduce the pull factors because what is increasing the living wage to £9 in 2020 going to do?

Eastern Europeans who have a minimum wage which is already one tenth of what ours is, surely that's going to increase net migration?
Presenter David Dimbleby intervened to ask what her solution would be and how she would be voting at the referendum on June 23.

She replied:
I would get out of the EU so we could have a fair points-based system so we don't favour people from the EU over people (outside) of the EU.

We can have someone unskilled within Europe coming in without any questions, but a really talented doctor from India has to go through an intensive process.

It doesn't make sense.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:27 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:01 pm
Thanks UoG, as always very thoughtful. I disagree..........at the margin where issues not seldom addressed due to political correctness, new definitions, new issues etc. But I would like a round or two with you on subject BECAUSE.......you might move me off my best thinking on the subject? But.......I don't want to hijack this thread more than we have.

Of note, I did find the previous thread on topic and I AM SURPRISED it is now almost 4 years old.......feels like only 2 years ago? My memory still serves me otherwise: I think Poodle was closer to your position than mine until the poll reports of how many Muslims support Sharia law. I could well be reading into that........but I was also shocked at how Shria most Muslims are. Heh, heh: the very basis of my concern, and I think you recognize it as well..........so.....it can be an irritated subject to discuss, but I will take it to that older thread with the last few posts copied there.

I do assume you have much better things to think about...............but just incase it rains and dog eats your crossword of the day.......
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=26252&p=701240#p701240
Thanks for the link. There is one salient fact here that may have been forgotten: GW Bush insisted he believed Islam was a religion of peace and that the terrorists had hijacked it. Well, there's a grain of truth there. Muslims have been fairly tolerant of religions of the book in places where they were in charge and Jews and Christians had to live under their laws. (Even in that case, during the Reconquista in Spain, Muslims committed pogroms against Jews. Not as bad as the Christians did, but still...) Bush would talk about "terrorists" but would never say "Islamic terrorists." Trump made a lot of points with his followers by boasting that he was not afraid to say "Islamic terrorists." But "political correctness" is not the difference there; the difference is what is good, diplomatic policy. Bush understood it; Trump didn't and doesn't.

There is a segment (a small one, I hope) of Christians who really WANT war to the knife with Islam and do all kinds of juvenile things deliberately aimed at provoking hostility. An example of that was the Florida fanatical preacher a few years ago, who announced his intention to do a very public burning of the Quran. (I believe he was, with great difficulty, dissuaded from this intent.)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)