Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:03 pm

Just watched the docudrama "Brexit" starring Cumberbuns. I assume it is exaggerated in places for story telling effect but it sets forth the entire Brexit movement was a FAUX NEWS type conspiracy of FAUX NEWS type personalities and procedures.

Here in the USA, we weren't subject to the daily barrage of inane, irrelevant, and purposefully not fair and unbalanced news pimping. We had/have Trump for that instead.

My original "main" point is only buttressed. NOT to ignore the First Brexit, but rather to recognize that a Second Brexit vote two years later AFTER the BS has settled out and the REAL CONSEQUENCES/EFFECTS/CHOICES MADE of an actual HARD BREXIT are known by the voters.

Seems only fair, reasonble.........and appropriate. I actually don't care what the second vote would be.......just observing it would be a more valid measure of what the people actually want.

In the movie Brexit, it wasn't expressly stated, but with images of WW2.........it was clear the notion was that a positive of closer ties among all European Nations would be lessening the chances for War. Isn't that still true?........like above and beyond whatever tawdry interests are affoot as in the movie, selling Brexit on a wish for nostalgia? NOSTALGIA????? Please...........but whatever works.

A simlar contra re evils of the EU: totaly appropriate to join EU with the agreement that borders will be open to goods, services..........and PEOPLE. But when Merkle basically blew open the borders of Europe to non-Europeans....I think "she" violated the very premise of EU membership. Thats just an economic evaluation...........people are the same the world over.........with different ideas, notions, cultures, religions, etc........
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:30 am

Another Monday, another week.
Mrs May is trolling off to Brussels again to make another attempt to convince the bureaucrats that if they dropped the backstop, the UK would accept her deal wholeheartedly. While things may not be quite so simple as that, it's certainly a long way to acceptance - and it would mean that discussions could begin again in earnest. My prediction is that the Republic of Ireland will throw a dickyfit at the very suggestion but most other EU countries would look at it seriously. Whether the EU Commission would look at it at all is up for grabs, but even they must realise that March 29th is getting perilously near.
The TV debate frenzy seems to have died down a little, which is hardly surprising - everything that can be said has been said a hundred times and there appears to have been no major change of heart amongst the UK population. Opinion polls still show that another referendum would have the same result as the first one - meaning that the majority of UK citizens want to leave the EU.
There are still the doom-mongers peddling their wares - but if any of them genuinely think that UK businesses have not spent at least the last year gearing up for the possibility of a no-deal Brexit (and the same applies to EU businesses which deal with the UK) than they don't live in the real world.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:37 am

I may have hinted at this earlier, but as an OUTSIDER without all the history and indoctrination and so forth, I don't see why a "hard/EU" border should not exist between the Irelands. They are two different countries after all.......why any special treatment at all? Its actually kinda the same question as Brexit itself..........if you want the benefits, you take the liabilities as well. If you don't, then you don't.....and up goes the standard border.

..........and like Brexit itself, is there any "real" reason there should not be hard/regular/EU borders between the Irelands? Or is it just a position that is accepted as a given?? Ha, ha.........and then........if an except for Ireland.......why not for the entirety of EU?

Not an exercise in logic.......but rather....."how come?"

I was looking forward to watching an hour presentation on the negatives of forming a World Government on the local Public Access channel, but it appears I did not get it recorded. Well, hopefully it will be on again next weekend. I enjoy hearing the cons of any position I generally favor. Hmmmm, even in One World Gubment........should immigration be totally uncontrolled?...........I can see a wrinkle or two.............
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Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:10 am

bobbo,
building a wall between the US and Mexico will be very hard to do.
Building one between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland would require splitting people's living room in half in some cases.
People have gotten used to not feeling separated.

Think of it this way: would it be even remotely feasible to build up the Berlin Wall again? Would Germans, East or West, be ok with separating again?

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:35 am

I am uninformed and ignorant about any details of the Brexit/BackStop issues. My interest is very much more generalized.....but still.....there is no WALL like Israel built to separate itself from the rest of the Arabs at EU borders. Why would this be the model/concern with Ireland? I was thinking just customs controls and so forth.....to be enforce or not as desired by either side?

I traveled all over Europe before the EU arose and it was very hit and miss re border issues. Sometimes an hour delay, sometimes no delay at all.

A few people being used to "whatever" is no reason not to treat the larger issues with the rigor they demand.......and note, the demand/rigor required could be near zero or on Maximum High all as the situation changes?

I "assume" the relevant issues are not those of people who have houses/property straddling the imaginary line on a map ((Catch-22 Reference there)) and not even "trade" or "working people" passing back and forth but.......what would UK "want to do" if a bunch of Gypsies, Romas, and other ne'er do wells started using the Back Door of Europe to "invade" NI? If not a Wall...I could see border security of appropriate design going up pretty fast? Isn't this the very real/actual/motivating force that got Brexit approved? That was the strongest propaganda from the film Brexit: "going back to having the friends you used to have". Ha, ha.....yes, the bigoted fear based appeal. Who needs "new" friends?

Need it be said? "The Wall" with Mexico is purely symbolic....., well, not exactly because it IS still a wall. A wall would keep the innocent and ineffectual and casual refugee at bay until they get frustrated and do what all their friends are doing. I think "the Wall" much like the Back Stop re Ireland is more about habit patterns that are hard to change rather than reality that has ready answers absent the habit patterns.

Mexican border crossing "used to be" mostly about JOBS and the job magnet the USA had on at full strength when we hypocritically, but for supposed humane reasons, ended the Bracero invited in season labor from Mexico. Unionized farm laborers, all Mexicans, didn't like the competition and aggitated against it. So, legal visa holders program was terminated and we got illegal labor to replace it. Hooray for Democracy????????? Today though, even if the JOBS magnet was turned off by Employer Enforcement which would be VERY EASY to do........our border would still be swamped by political refugees. This time, its the hypocritical USA Drug enforcement policies that have created the swamp of terror throughout Central America.....causing the exodus of victims all according to the Laws the USA has on its books. Again, Hooray for Democracy although this issue is thornier than the seasonal fruit picker issue.

Yeap.....its just people, wanting the pros and any situation and screaming about the cons. Just like Global Warming.....just like every issue you can name. The solutions aren't all that "hard".........just unacceptable. Ha, ha.
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Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:45 am

It is probably true that even with a hard border between NI and RoI, we wouldn't get another religious war between Protestants and Catholics.
But there is a real fear that NI would try to split from the UK via Referendum, the way Scotland has been trying to. Then it might or might not join RoI, but would very likely become part of the EU either way.

The UK might lose way more than just border autonomy if it does a bad Brexit deal.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:50 am

Thanks EM.......yes, still knowing nothing.......there is that domino effect. Another reason to stay in the EU? The devil you know..........

there is that purely emotional issue of wanting the fewest controls on you as possible........thats wanting the Pros while avoiding the cons........as stated a few times on this forum: if people could vote for it, the largest governmental entity would be each mans castle/home/hovel that he occupied. But the smaller you are, the more vulnerable you are......and why Germany was not an issue until all its city states joined up. And Brexit and then perhaps a unified Ireland shows the always present countervailing desire to as Steve Martin used to Joke: "Get Small."

Pros and Cons.....................in any political/social evaluation..........make sure they are appropriately allocated.
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:58 am

Ah....unrelated TV news just reminded me. How "issues" change and morph over time without the recognized initial motivating factors/assumptions/bases being kept in mind.

The OBVIOUS: Trumps Wall: WAS BASED ON........Mexico paying for it. How many people would have voted for Trump and His Wall if it was The Wall for 5 Billion in new taxes? and the answer is near zero but the original premises have been forgotten/morphed. Hooray for Democracy?

My assumption: Brexit is no different. While the wording of the REF is short, clear, and on one level easy to understand, it was SOLD with a bunch of hoopla on the order of "Mexico will pay for it."....perhaps as I recall some messaging like "Brexit will Save Millions of Pounds of EU contributions we can spend on ourselves better fund National Health" and such come on's? And I (again) assume: all those BASES on which Brexit was passed, have morphed. When conditional premises have changed, is any vote based on them still valid?????? I say: NO.

The WALL is not valid AT ALL........because Mexico is not paying for it.
Brexit is not valid at all.............because, I assume, all the lies to pass it have been recognized???????

hooray for Democracy!
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Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:00 pm

The obvious reason to stay in the EU is to be able to negotiate with China and the US on eye level - united we bargain, alone we beg applies to workers as well as small countries.
If the EU fractures, it will become irrelevant, economically and geo-politically; it might also cause NATO to deteriorate, which would open Eastern Europe and the Baltic up to Russian takeover in all but name.

It might be a strategy to become/stay so small that the Big Fish don't bother with you, but that's pretty risky.

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Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:01 pm

the LEAVE faction has been talking about the "Brexit Dividend" - May has frequently used the term.
It is the idea that the UK would suddenly become rich by leaving the EU.

Every economist has said that this is BS, has the UK makes more money in the common market than it can on its own.
Looks like the experts were right - what were the chances of that?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:03 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:45 am
It is probably true that even with a hard border between NI and RoI, we wouldn't get another religious war between Protestants and Catholics.
But there is a real fear that NI would try to split from the UK via Referendum, the way Scotland has been trying to. Then it might or might not join RoI, but would very likely become part of the EU either way.

The UK might lose way more than just border autonomy if it does a bad Brexit deal.
I have to say, I did think the possibility of a reunification of Ireland under one government, long the dream of the IRA, might actually happen. When I first went to England in 1981, most of the English that I met felt that the future of NI was with the Republic. But back in those days, now nearly 40 years ago, there were a lot of theological dogmas in the Irish Constitution, and on the other side there was the firebrand Ian Paisley who said he was willing to fight England in order to remain English. Now that things have settled down, and now that the power of the priests has been broken in the Republic, it would be a positive outcome, in the unwanted opinion of this Yank. (It has also changed my relations with the Irish-American community, some of whose members, in their attachment to the Old Sod, were bankrolling the IRA. I think they have now found different hobbies. I hope so.)
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:08 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:58 am
Ah....unrelated TV news just reminded me. How "issues" change and morph over time without the recognized initial motivating factors/assumptions/bases being kept in mind.

The OBVIOUS: Trumps Wall: WAS BASED ON........Mexico paying for it. How many people would have voted for Trump and His Wall if it was The Wall for 5 Billion in new taxes? and the answer is near zero but the original premises have been forgotten/morphed. Hooray for Democracy?

My assumption: Brexit is no different. While the wording of the REF is short, clear, and on one level easy to understand, it was SOLD with a bunch of hoopla on the order of "Mexico will pay for it."....perhaps as I recall some messaging like "Brexit will Save Millions of Pounds of EU contributions we can spend on ourselves better fund National Health" and such come on's? And I (again) assume: all those BASES on which Brexit was passed, have morphed. When conditional premises have changed, is any vote based on them still valid?????? I say: NO.

The WALL is not valid AT ALL........because Mexico is not paying for it.
Brexit is not valid at all.............because, I assume, all the lies to pass it have been recognized???????

hooray for Democracy!
I don't see a detailed parallelism between the Wall and Brexit, but on the Wall, you've got a very good point, and the Democrats should make use of it. First the lie was "Mexico will pay for it." Then the lie became, "Mexico IS paying for it through the new NAFTA that I, the Donald the Magnificent, negotiated (even though this treaty is not yet ratified)." And, when that one fell through, the new spin, starting last week, was "It will pay for itself." That is perhaps closest to what appears to be the reasoning that may have prevailed in parts of the pro-Brexit movement.

I'm happy that Britain is willing to be the guinea pig for this experiment in nationalism vs. internationalism. I'll keep an open mind after Brexit occurs, and we'll see how it goes. I do recall, though, Bertrand Russell's remark that when the Great War broke out, many of his friends were sure the British economy was going to boom as a result of the destruction of German trade. Well, German trade did get destroyed, but if there was a boom in the British economy afterwards, my history books failed to notice it. Britain and France were in debt to an unforgiving Republican isolationist coterie in the US. Every Vermonter's favorite President, Calvin Coolidge of Plymouth, famously said, in refusing to cancel the debt, "They hired the money, didn't they?" There was even a general strike due to hard times in 1926.
Last edited by Upton_O_Goode on Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:11 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:00 pm
It might be a strategy to become/stay so small that the Big Fish don't bother with you, but that's pretty risky.
As posted a little bit back: Putin is all for Brexit. .......................... why? Its that eye-level thing. BEYOND TRADE: Putin doesn't want a unified Europe. Heck, get small and disunited enough, and Turkey could take another shot. I mean if Islam has ever occupied any locality..........its rightfully theirs forever.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:16 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:11 pm
Heck, get small and disunited enough, and Turkey could take another shot. I mean if Islam has ever occupied any locality..........its rightfully theirs forever.
I don't know if the typical Muslim believes that, but the fanatics certainly do. Osama bin Laden's highest aspiration was to recapture Andalusia, which he called Al-Andalus (known to the blind unbelievers in the West as Spain). And ISIS wants to resurrect the Ottoman Empire.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:38 pm

Right on point Upton: movements are led by their extremists. Proof: Brexit. (sarc off.............or, was it ever on?)
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Re: Brexit

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:41 pm

BTW, if any of you British people start feeling lonely after Brexit, Puerto Rico gets a much better deal from the USA than the UK ever did from the EU.

Of course being a "commonwealth" of the USA means you'll have to withdraw from that other Commonwealth, but what have they done for you lately?

And don't worry, despite what you might have heard the metric system is legal here and so is "footie". You can even beat us at "footie" unlike in that other Commonwealth.

Or if that's a little bit too marriage-like for a country that doesn't want to commit, you could at least join the North American Free Trade Area. I mean if Turkey and Bulgaria can be "North Atlantic", why not?

:P :P :P :P :P
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:43 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:08 pm

I don't see a detailed parallelism between the Wall and Brexit, ..............
Its not detailed.....its generalized as described. Get general enough........and everything is related to everything else. its not accurate, just the best way to think about things.......as one touch stone. Then throw in all the other stones, and get stoned. Its the bobbo way: its pragmatic.
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:45 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:08 pm

I'm happy that Britain is willing to be the guinea pig for this experiment in nationalism vs. internationalism. I'll keep an open mind after Brexit occurs, and we'll see how it goes.
I second your unstated premise that a study of history is worth nothing. Good man...............and there goes an entire building complex on my alma matter. They all became social workers anyway. Parasites on the parasites some had it.
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Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:01 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:16 pm
I don't know if the typical Muslim believes that, but the fanatics certainly do. Osama bin Laden's highest aspiration was to recapture Andalusia, which he called Al-Andalus (known to the blind unbelievers in the West as Spain). And ISIS wants to resurrect the Ottoman Empire.
no they don't: if there is one thing all Arabs can agree on, it is that they hate the Turks.
Erdogan wants to become the New Caliph, but ISIS wants a different Caliphate, with Turkey as one of many vassals.
But it is true that part of Islam is the belief that there can't be peace unless there is a unified world-government which runs on Sharia 1.0.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:05 pm

In long-secular Turkey, sharia is gradually taking over - The ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/.../in-l ... -taking-ov...
Feb 16, 2018 - While the secular constitutional system remains, my own research, polls and recent developments in Turkey together demonstrate a dangerous ...
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:28 pm

Primitive though some (including me) may think it, the majority of the Irish are Catholics and the majority of the Northern Irish are Protestants and, to them, that's important. I know of no majority movement within Northern Ireland for unification with the Republic. There IS an unpopular one amongst the Catholic population, which is what the Provisional IRA was all about. The Good Friday Agreement (providing a much higher degree of devolved government) stopped the troubles in NI, but it's my opinion that if Irish Unification was forced, the troubles would be back, this time with the Protestant part of the NI community being the militants. There's much more to nationhood than geographic proximity.
The Republic of Ireland seceded from the UK in 1921. The northern six counties (mostly Protestant descendants of settlers from the Highlands of Scotland) did not want to be ruled from Dublin and so stayed with the UK. I know of no good reason to act against the current wishes of the majority of the population of Northern Ireland.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:45 pm

Here's my proposed solution ...
1. Refuse to erect a physical border between the two Irelands. The Irish can do what they like, but it would be unilateral.
2. Tell the EU Commission to stick their backstop where the sun don't shine.
3. Leave (as we must in the event of no further extension) on March 29th, better off by £39 billion.
4. Open the UK immediately to international bilateral trade agreements.
That's called a no-deal Brexit and it cuts straight through intransigence and obstructionism and satisfies the referendum result. What could be simpler?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:00 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:45 pm
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:08 pm

I'm happy that Britain is willing to be the guinea pig for this experiment in nationalism vs. internationalism. I'll keep an open mind after Brexit occurs, and we'll see how it goes.
I second your unstated premise that a study of history is worth nothing. Good man...............and there goes an entire building complex on my alma matter. They all became social workers anyway. Parasites on the parasites some had it.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. History, to me, is a respectable subject. However, although I didn't write this, I well could have done.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:20 am

On April 18, 1930, the BBC announced "There is no news".
Today, January 22, 2019, there is no news.

There is, actually, but it's the same as yesterday and last week. Mrs May continues to close her eyes, cross her fingers, and sing "la, la, la" whilst carrying on with her doomed deal.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:42 am

You arouse a rare gambling instinct in me, Poodle. Some sixth sense tells me there will be a deus ex machina at the end of all this, and some simulacrum of a deal will emerge.

But I've learned not to trust that sixth sense. Back in December 2017, I had the overwhelming sense that I would not live through 2018. Well, maybe I actually didn't. Maybe I'm dead and don't know it...
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:04 pm

I have the same sixth sense, UoG, but I think it will be an 'out' deal rather than an 'in' deal. It is utterly senseless to go through a bitter and absolute divorce. I would like to see the UK free to trade as it would wish anywhere in the world - that's a thing which more or less defines the UK and it's also the thing which most Brexiteers identify as 'interfering EU regulation'. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if most Brexiteers thought that's all it was.
However, it would be stupid (on both sides) if the UK was excluded from the scientific cooperation which has been achieved and, in fact, it may well be that very scientific cooperation which, in the end, could forge some kind of continuing partnership.
But another however - it is a frustrating, if comical, thing to watch Mrs May carry on with her dead duck regardless, and I feel it will lead to an initial no-deal situation.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:13 pm

Poodle wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:04 pm
I would like to see the UK free to trade as it would wish anywhere in the world - that's a thing which more or less defines the UK and it's also the thing which most Brexiteers identify as 'interfering EU regulation'.
Free trade.....with all the rules/laws/treaties/customs and practices in place that provide for a level playing field. Just like always.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:29 pm

EDIT: Sorry - bad site I directed you to,

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:11 pm

Things are getting serious. The EU is threatening to impose something which neither Ireland nor the UK want - in fact, something which both Ireland and the UK have said they will not do. I think that confirms the nature of the beast.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10760 ... ote-latest

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Re: Brexit

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:35 pm

After Brexit, England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales could petition Ottawa to be accepted as our 11th, 12th, 13th, and 14th provinces (15th, if Turks & Caicos is ever accepted - they keep applying). I mean, you couldn't be any worse than them Kaybeckers, thanks to whom, we are already inured to exit referenda.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:19 pm

Vive le Royaume-Uni libre!!!

Oh - you forgot the Isle of Man and the Channel islands.
Last edited by Poodle on Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:27 am

I never thought to do this before - so I've been scanning all the major newspapers in EU countries. It seems that a recent suggestion to solve the border issue is gaining support. It's to put the border on the coast of France, thus leaving the Irish/UK border as open as it is now and no need for a backstop arrangement. If you think about that for a minute or so, your mind will begin to go around in ever-decreasing circles.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:28 pm

Just for grins, I looked it up; World GDP Ranking 2018 - StatisticsTimes.com
statisticstimes.com/economy/projected-world-gdp-ranking.php

Jun 9, 2018 - Projected GDP Ranking (2018-2023) This ranking is based on projection by International Monetary Fund (IMF) outlook April 2018 for year 2018 and 2023. In 2018, Top ten countries in nominal terms are : United States, China, Japan, Germany, United Kingdom, France, India, Italy, Brazil and Canada.

I forgot Japan. Time was: this singular Island Nation was quite the powerhouse and about to take over from the USA.....then their bubble burst and they still haven't recovered (if being No3 is such a disaster) and evidently as the real estate tax haven bubble is finally resolving somewhat they are into their too many old folks/not enough workers in the Ponzi Scheme economists call "business" reality.

I know, see, and appreciate the joke..............but.............no reason for UK to claim its independence/sovereignty demands to turn around and subjugate themselves to Canada or anyone else. Ha, ha.........more likely: invade and take over Ireland. Seems like a natural to me.......absent World Law, treaties, and other restraints on self interest. THAT is "kinda" a joke and very much follows building that wall in Normandy.
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Re: Brexit

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:06 pm

A wall off the coast of France makes a lot of sense. A hard border for the EU, AND it will keep out the rising seas from global warming. Win- win.


Of course, it would have to go all the way around, at least to mountains in the north and south.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:56 pm

Michel Barnier has announced that putting a time limit on the Irish backstop is pointless. True, Michel, so as there is most certainly not going to be an unlimited backstop there's no point in even thinking about it. Maybe that's where the idea of the French coastal border came from. To be frank, he must think that the entire population of the UK fell out of a Christmas tree.
Meanwhile, International Trade Secretary Liam Fox is upping the pressure, having concluded a post-Brexit free trade deal with Israel. It's a mere £10 billion thing (our trade last year with Israel was more than that), but it's a start. He's apparently aiming for South Korea, Hong Kong, Canada and Colombia next, as they are also at the World Economic Forum being held in Davos. But here's a hint, Liam - there are many other countries attending Davos.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:47 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:28 pm

I forgot Japan. Time was: this singular Island Nation was quite the powerhouse and about to take over from the USA.....then their bubble burst and they still haven't recovered (if being No3 is such a disaster) and evidently as the real estate tax haven bubble is finally resolving somewhat they are into their too many old folks/not enough workers in the Ponzi Scheme economists call "business" reality.
Yes indeed. If you want to read a novel that has gone way past its sell-by date, look at "Live from Golgotha" by Philip Roth, published in the 1980s. I didn't read it until about 2010, and by then the ending, which would have been a firecracker of a finale back in 1989, just looked pathetic.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:51 am

The major fuglemen of the American left appear not to share your sanguine view of a no-deal Brexit, Poodle. I remain, as always, neutral and undecided.

Here's a sample. You can read the full story at the link.
You’d think such a resounding defeat would kill off the deal, forcing May to reach out across Parliament and consider other options. But no, this is a zombie deal—the Chucky doll of Brexit deals. In the days since May’s humiliating defeat, we have learned that her Plan B is to try to rally support (again) among her own MPs by asking the EU (again) to amend bits of the deal that they have already said, in every possible way, that they will not and cannot amend. This delusional behavior is being described by Conservative MPs as “one more heave.”
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:52 am

I remember seeing that title but I could not get into Portnoy's Complaint so I gave it and the rest of Roth a pass. Rather read wolfe or Kesey or Vonnegut........and then wish Heller had written another book.....better than the one he did..........

to each our own. Spend time on a pathetic book??? Ha, ha.........you don't like me much do you Upton? (JOKE....I know you love me. ((( x-2))))
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:54 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:51 am
The major fuglemen of the American left appear not to share your sanguine view of a no-deal Brexit, Poodle. I remain, as always, neutral and undecided.

Here's a sample. You can read the full story at the link.
You’d think such a resounding defeat would kill off the deal, forcing May to reach out across Parliament and consider other options. But no, this is a zombie deal—the Chucky doll of Brexit deals. In the days since May’s humiliating defeat, we have learned that her Plan B is to try to rally support (again) among her own MPs by asking the EU (again) to amend bits of the deal that they have already said, in every possible way, that they will not and cannot amend. This delusional behavior is being described by Conservative MPs as “one more heave.”
I dunno. I kinda hear Churchill in her stance...".....we shall nevare surrender.........."
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:00 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:54 am
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:51 am
The major fuglemen of the American left appear not to share your sanguine view of a no-deal Brexit, Poodle. I remain, as always, neutral and undecided.

Here's a sample. You can read the full story at the link.
You’d think such a resounding defeat would kill off the deal, forcing May to reach out across Parliament and consider other options. But no, this is a zombie deal—the Chucky doll of Brexit deals. In the days since May’s humiliating defeat, we have learned that her Plan B is to try to rally support (again) among her own MPs by asking the EU (again) to amend bits of the deal that they have already said, in every possible way, that they will not and cannot amend. This delusional behavior is being described by Conservative MPs as “one more heave.”
I dunno. I kinda hear Churchill in her stance...".....we shall nevare surrender.........."
Naw, she doesn't have a Churchillian cadence. She's more like Ulysses S. Grant: "I propose to fight it out along these lines, even if it takes all summer."
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)