About that statue of Columbus

Abdul Alhazred · Post by **Abdul Alhazred** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:34 am

I'm talking about Columbus atop the column in Columbus Circle, NYC.
The one Mayor DeBlasio is talking about getting rid of.

It's not like it's in any sense a real likeness of anybody.
And Christopher Columbus had {!#%@} all to do with New York City.

From now on (and retroactively forever) it should be deemed to be a statue of a prominent past New Yorker, Josephus Columbus.

He was giving a speech at a civil rights rally when he was shot at what is now Columbus Circle.

scrmbldggs · Post by **scrmbldggs** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:42 am

Pass it a round.

Aztexan · Post by **Aztexan** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:20 am

I hope I come back as a pigeon in my next life.

Nikki Nyx · Post by **Nikki Nyx** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:29 am

Speaking of which, it's LONG past time we got rid of "Columbus Day."

xouper · Post by **xouper** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:13 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:Speaking of which, it's LONG past time we got rid of "Columbus Day."

If I may ask, why would you want to stop celebrating the one good thing he did?

Gord · Post by **Gord** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:35 am

What did Columbus do, anyway?

scrmbldggs · Post by **scrmbldggs** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:28 am

I think he killed cigars.

xouper · Post by **xouper** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:37 am

Gord wrote:What did Columbus do, anyway?

He found the loophole in the immigration policy (of the original inhabitants of North America) that enabled massive immigration from Europe.

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:47 am

And murdered many most as he went.

Phoenix76 · Post by **Phoenix76** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:16 am

Hang on TJ, just how many of the original inhabitants of N.A. did he actually kill???? That is one hell of a statement you have made, perhaps you need to support the veracity of it.

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:54 am

Phoenix76 wrote:Hang on TJ, just how many of the original inhabitants of N.A. did he actually kill???? That is one hell of a statement you have made, perhaps you need to support the veracity of it.

Yes... My understanding is that he killed or enslaved - most natives he came into contact with, and that he reported this in his journals. No question that he was a bold killer, but how many is of course difficult for me to quantify (if a body count is necessary). I first read of this in `Lies My Teacher Told Me` by James W. Loewen, but a quick google search found this.

But I do grant that `many` would probably have been more accurate than `most`. Good catch.

Gawdzilla Sama · Post by **Gawdzilla Sama** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:09 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Hang on TJ, just how many of the original inhabitants of N.A. did he actually kill???? That is one hell of a statement you have made, perhaps you need to support the veracity of it.

Splitting hairs.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:02 pm

The history of the Columbus Square statue is that it was erected in response to a wave of anti-Italian sentiment very prevalent in NYC at the time. ie: nothing to do with columbus the man per se and everything to do with the rights/pride/solidarity/protection of Italians making their way in America.

Not that it can't have more than one meaning....................

Nikki Nyx · Post by **Nikki Nyx** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:17 pm

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Speaking of which, it's LONG past time we got rid of "Columbus Day."
If I may ask, why would you want to stop celebrating the one good thing he did?

If I may ask, have you read Columbus' journal?

Major Malfunction · Post by **Major Malfunction** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:35 pm

Why does everyone want to erase the past all of a sudden? You know that's not a good idea, right? You know the kind of ideology that stems from, right? And where it leads... Lest we forget.

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:57 am

Major Malfunction wrote:Why does everyone want to erase the past all of a sudden? You know that's not a good idea, right? You know the kind of ideology that stems from, right? And where it leads... Lest we forget.

Agreed - let`s update those monuments to cold blooded killers by adding nooses to their necks...

Better yet - make reading Lies My Teacher Told Me part of Common Core...

Major Malfunction · Post by **Major Malfunction** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:06 am

Nazi.

xouper · Post by **xouper** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:09 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Speaking of which, it's LONG past time we got rid of "Columbus Day."
If I may ask, why would you want to stop celebrating the one good thing he did?
If I may ask, have you read Columbus' journal?

I confess I haven't. But I have heard rumors.

With some historical figures, it is easy to form a consensus that the bad outweighed the good. So I agree, let's not celebrate with statues of Hitler in the public square.

It seems there is a continuum of good to bad with historical figures strewn every which where along that continuum.

Where do you draw the line and why do you put Columbus on the Hitler side of that line?

Enquiring Minds Wanna Know^TM

Nikki Nyx · Post by **Nikki Nyx** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:26 am

Let's look at it the other way: The reason we celebrate Columbus Day is because of the completely false notion that he discovered America. Notice how it's not the United States of Columbia?

To continue, how can it be argued that Columbus discovered America when the continent had an indigenous population upon his arrival? That's like me saying I discovered your house, kicking your arse out, and claiming the house is now mine. You can't claim you discovered a land when people have lived there for generations, having discovered it long before you arrived. Well, clearly you can, but it's {!#%@}. {!#%@}? {!#%@}? *sigh* I can't escape the red lines, which means it's probably time for bed.

But you really should read his journal. It's something of a wake-up call to hear it from the horse's mouth.

xouper · Post by **xouper** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:55 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:Let's look at it the other way: The reason we celebrate Columbus Day is because of the completely false notion that he discovered America.

Well, I'll be danged.

I never knew that's why we celebrate Columbus Day.

You mean all this time I've been celebrating it for the wrong reason?

I've never been under any illusion that Columbus "discovered America".

I always thought we were celebrating the anniversary of Christopher Columbus's arrival in the Americas on October 12, 1492. That was no small feat.

Although I have no Italian ancestry (that I know of), many Italian-Americans observe Columbus Day as a celebration of their heritage. So does Italy.

This brings us back to my previous question, where do you draw the line and why do you put Columbus on the Hitler side of that line? Are you suggesting Columbus's journal answers that question?

In any case, I'm certainly open to being persuaded to change my mind. I don't really have strong feelings about this particular holiday one way or the other.

Related question: Should we also rename the capital of Ohio (which is also the 14th-largest city in the United States)?

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:51 am

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Let's look at it the other way: The reason we celebrate Columbus Day is because of the completely false notion that he discovered America.
Well, I'll be danged.

I never knew that's why we celebrate Columbus Day.

You mean all this time I've been celebrating it for the wrong reason?

I've never been under any illusion that Columbus "discovered America".

I always thought we were celebrating the anniversary of Christopher Columbus's arrival in the Americas on October 12, 1492. That was no small feat.

Although I have no Italian ancestry (that I know of), many Italian-Americans observe Columbus Day as a celebration of their heritage. So does Italy.

This brings us back to my previous question, where do you draw the line and why do you put Columbus on the Hitler side of that line? Are you suggesting Columbus's journal answers that question?

I haven`t read his journals, but the author of Lies My Teacher Told Me did - and from what I remember Columbus put to the sword natives for not answering correctly his question - Do you believe in God? Not that they understood his question or needed to for that matter. IMO he belongs with Hitler - a powerful rapist using advanced technology of the time, against mostly defenseless peoples he had already conquered and enslaved.

But a line doesn`t actually need to be drawn if his deeds are accurately taught along with the resultant outcomes. ... A powerful new nation, but native peoples 90% killed off with the rest pushed into ghettos, etc.

No doubt even Hitler is responsible for some advances that have benefitted mankind, for example - the roadway system, the world facing up to antisemitism, US higher education for the masses thru the GI bill, etc.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:44 pm

Lots of false distinctions, the fallacy of either/or thinking on display here.

Did columbus discover america? Of course. Did he have to arrive here to do that? Of course. Is there any substantive difference between the two?==No. Does it matter that Indians were already here?==No. Are we all immigrants to the USA except the Indians?==NO...as Indians are too. All immigrants all over the World outside the Rift Valley. does the concept of being an immigrant or not mean anything?==No.

Is Columbus on the Hitler side of things? Yes, and No.....entirely definitional. ........................ and as I define the Hitler side of things, it becomes a rather interesting exercise. The "values" accepted and rejected. Every "Leader"/King/Government/God kills those he disagrees with or has land/wealth they want for themselves. Is every leader/king/gov/god on the Hitler side of things? I think so...............on that attribute. Hitler being within living memory is different but not substantive.......he too will pass into history as did Genghis Khan and all the Roman Emperors and Alexander. Why does Stalin and Mao not get the same rap as Hitler? They both killed more people (?).

Yep, fun subject to consider. Its all: culture.

Nikki Nyx · Post by **Nikki Nyx** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:43 pm

xouper wrote:I've never been under any illusion that Columbus "discovered America".

Most Americans are.

xouper wrote:I always thought we were celebrating the anniversary of Christopher Columbus's arrival in the Americas on October 12, 1492. That was no small feat.

To sail west from Europe and encounter land? It's more amazing that he managed to miss both continents, but make landfall on several small islands in the Caribbean.

xouper wrote:Although I have no Italian ancestry (that I know of), many Italian-Americans observe Columbus Day as a celebration of their heritage. So does Italy.

Kind of like some Southerners cherish the so-called Confederate Flag as a celebration of their heritage? Or how white supremacists feel the swastika is a symbol of their heritage?

xouper wrote:This brings us back to my previous question, where do you draw the line and why do you put Columbus on the Hitler side of that line? Are you suggesting Columbus's journal answers that question?

Personally, I draw the line when people are treated like things, and things are treated like people, which is what Columbus did. These few excerpts show his general attitude:

Thursday, 11 October 1492
Weapons they have none, nor are acquainted with them, for I showed them swords which they grasped by the blades, and cut themselves through ignorance. [sic] They are all of a good size and stature, and handsomely formed. [sic] It appears to me, that the people are ingenious, and would be good servants and I am of opinion that they would very readily become Christians, as they appear to have no religion.

Saturday, 13 October 1492
I was very attentive to them, and strove to learn if they had any gold. Seeing some of them with little bits of this metal hanging at their noses, I gathered from them by signs that by going southward or steering round the island in that direction, there would be found a king who possessed large vessels of gold, and in great quantities. I endeavored to procure them to lead the way thither, but found they were unacquainted with the route.

Sunday, 14 October 1492
I do not, however, see the necessity of fortifying the place, as the people here are simple in war-like matters, as your Highnesses will see by those seven which I have ordered to be taken and carried to Spain in order to learn our language and return, unless your Highnesses should choose to have them all transported to Castile, or held captive in the island. I could conquer the whole of them with fifty men, and govern them as I pleased.

Most of what I've quoted does not illustrate the physical violence, but it is emblematic of the general attitude. If you prefer an independent viewpoint and a more visceral one, read Bartolomé de las Casas' writings on the treatment of the indigenous peoples by the "discoverers" and "settlers." If you choose to do so, having an empty stomach at the time is suggested.

xouper wrote:Related question: Should we also rename the capital of Ohio (which is also the 14th-largest city in the United States)?

No. At least, not in my opinion. Because we should never forget our history, never allow it to be sanitized. I also disagree with the obliteration of sites where Confederate statues have been taken down. Those sites should remain historical sites, marked with informational plaques denoting what happened and why. Lest we forget. In the case of the Civil War, quite a large number of people who were not emotionally-tied to that misguided cause still fought and died, including slaves.

Nikki Nyx · Post by **Nikki Nyx** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:55 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Why does Stalin and Mao not get the same rap as Hitler? They both killed more people (?).

They do get the same rap, IMO. As do Pol Pot, Mussolini, Suharto, Tito, Pinochet, Leopold II, and countless others. I'm not sure why we always seem to use Hitler as the litmus test.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:03 pm

Nikki....whats the difference between a rap and a litmus test?

I'll guess: we are closer to Hitler on a historical and cultural level and fought against him in WW2 whereas Stalin and Mao (sic) were also victims of Hitler......... ie politics. So....NOT the same Rap and NOT the same litmus test. Not enough numbers after the top 3.

Nikki Nyx · Post by **Nikki Nyx** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:28 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nikki....whats the difference between a rap and a litmus test?

I'll guess: we are closer to Hitler on a historical and cultural level and fought against him in WW2 whereas Stalin and Mao (sic) were also victims of Hitler......... ie politics. So....NOT the same Rap and NOT the same litmus test. Not enough numbers after the top 3.

I'm not sure where you're going now. I thought we were talking about genocidal monsters and why we always seem to name Hitler as the most negative example. You've lost me.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:42 pm

Nikki: no, you are right on what I thought I was talking to...........so I must be off the mark. We are talking about genocidal monsters and ..........why its Hitler that gets all the notoriety. Referencing Hitler is the end of an argument. Stalin and Mao...you have to run a few explanatory remarks to orient the reader first.

My view: you said Hitler is not unique because others killed more people. But that leaves the question of why Hitler even more idiosyncratic. I think for the reasons I listed?

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:24 pm

Maybe Hitler is unique because he mechanised murder whereas others did it mostly thru starvation, enslavement, etc. - though Hitler used these too.

Gawdzilla Sama · Post by **Gawdzilla Sama** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:41 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:Why does everyone want to erase the past all of a sudden? You know that's not a good idea, right? You know the kind of ideology that stems from, right? And where it leads... Lest we forget.

We don't want to erase the past, we also don't want to candy-coat it.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:58 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: We don't want to erase the past, we also don't want to candy-coat it.

Getting snot all over your history huh?

Gord · Post by **Gord** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:47 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Why does Stalin and Mao not get the same rap as Hitler? They both killed more people (?).
They do get the same rap, IMO. As do Pol Pot, Mussolini, Suharto, Tito, Pinochet, Leopold II, and countless others. I'm not sure why we always seem to use Hitler as the litmus test.

I think some people cut them more slack because they are perceived to have "won". Same thing with Alexander the Great (although he may not have been considered that "great" by the people he conquered). On the other hand, Napoleon "lost" so his crimes are heightened by history. If Hitler had won, Churchill would be a great villain for his war crimes.

The actions they've taken are often viewed with leniency towards the victors. They're given a pass because, well, "they had to do it to achieve their goals". Despite the adage that the ends do not justify the means, we tend to justify the means exactly that way for the perceived "winners". That's why attitudes often change when we reinspect the past.

Abdul Alhazred · Post by **Abdul Alhazred** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:34 am

Columbus wasn't the first to discover America,
he was the one who discovered America and made it stick.

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:36 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Columbus wasn't the first to discover America,
he was the one who discovered America and made it sick.

FIFY

Major Malfunction · Post by **Major Malfunction** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:51 am

TJrandom wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:Columbus wasn't the first to discover America,
he was the one who discovered America and made it sick.
FIFY

If it weren't for him and his crew, it would've been some other plague-bearer, none too soon.

And it's not the fault of the bearer. Except when they do it on a porpoise.

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:44 am

Major Malfunction wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:Columbus wasn't the first to discover America,
he was the one who discovered America and made it sick.
FIFY
If it weren't for him and his crew, it would've been some other plague-bearer, none too soon.

And it's not the fault of the bearer. Except when they do it on a porpoise.

Aw, tryin to spoil the hilarity I see.... But of course, in that day and age of ignorance, true enough.

Major Malfunction · Post by **Major Malfunction** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:03 am

I'm sorry. I'm very attached to my reality teddybear.

Gawdzilla Sama · Post by **Gawdzilla Sama** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:32 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Columbus wasn't the first to discover America,
he was the one who discovered America and made it stick.

The vikings didn't discover America, they discovered Canada.

Gawdzilla Sama · Post by **Gawdzilla Sama** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:34 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Columbus wasn't the first to discover America,
he was the one who discovered America and made it stick.

North America was discovered over 15,000 years ago. Those folks came to stay.

xouper · Post by **xouper** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:54 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:I've never been under any illusion that Columbus "discovered America".
Most Americans are.

xouper wrote:I always thought we were celebrating the anniversary of Christopher Columbus's arrival in the Americas on October 12, 1492. That was no small feat.
To sail west from Europe and encounter land? It's more amazing that he managed to miss both continents, but make landfall on several small islands in the Caribbean.

xouper wrote:Although I have no Italian ancestry (that I know of), many Italian-Americans observe Columbus Day as a celebration of their heritage. So does Italy.
Kind of like some Southerners cherish the so-called Confederate Flag as a celebration of their heritage? Or how white supremacists feel the swastika is a symbol of their heritage?

xouper wrote:This brings us back to my previous question, where do you draw the line and why do you put Columbus on the Hitler side of that line? Are you suggesting Columbus's journal answers that question?
Personally, I draw the line when people are treated like things, and things are treated like people, which is what Columbus did. These few excerpts show his general attitude:
Thursday, 11 October 1492
Weapons they have none, nor are acquainted with them, for I showed them swords which they grasped by the blades, and cut themselves through ignorance. [sic] They are all of a good size and stature, and handsomely formed. [sic] It appears to me, that the people are ingenious, and would be good servants and I am of opinion that they would very readily become Christians, as they appear to have no religion.

Saturday, 13 October 1492
I was very attentive to them, and strove to learn if they had any gold. Seeing some of them with little bits of this metal hanging at their noses, I gathered from them by signs that by going southward or steering round the island in that direction, there would be found a king who possessed large vessels of gold, and in great quantities. I endeavored to procure them to lead the way thither, but found they were unacquainted with the route.

Sunday, 14 October 1492
I do not, however, see the necessity of fortifying the place, as the people here are simple in war-like matters, as your Highnesses will see by those seven which I have ordered to be taken and carried to Spain in order to learn our language and return, unless your Highnesses should choose to have them all transported to Castile, or held captive in the island. I could conquer the whole of them with fifty men, and govern them as I pleased.
Most of what I've quoted does not illustrate the physical violence, but it is emblematic of the general attitude. If you prefer an independent viewpoint and a more visceral one, read Bartolomé de las Casas' writings on the treatment of the indigenous peoples by the "discoverers" and "settlers." If you choose to do so, having an empty stomach at the time is suggested.

xouper wrote:Related question: Should we also rename the capital of Ohio (which is also the 14th-largest city in the United States)?
No. At least, not in my opinion. Because we should never forget our history, never allow it to be sanitized. I also disagree with the obliteration of sites where Confederate statues have been taken down. Those sites should remain historical sites, marked with informational plaques denoting what happened and why. Lest we forget. In the case of the Civil War, quite a large number of people who were not emotionally-tied to that misguided cause still fought and died, including slaves.

If I answer your questions and observations the way I would like to answer them, I foresee a confrontation coming.

So I will just back away. I am not interested in fighting about this.

Major Malfunction · Post by **Major Malfunction** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:57 am

There's evidence Polynesians made it to South America 18k ya. And Europeans a steady influx to North America over millennia.