A Religious Test--real or phobic?

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Gord » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:25 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I have 50 examples of Nation States that suffer from having a minority adversarial element in their society.

I have zero examples of Nation States that suffered from having excluded refugees.

You can sing Kumbayah, or look to History.

Any link to the net effect of immigration?..... or just gross unexamined generalities?
A "minority adversarial element" is not the same thing as "Sharia law replacing the Constitution". And your view that nation states suffer because of internal adversity is the paranoid version of my view that nations grow through diversity of ideas.
"Your paranoia is not keeping me safe, it's keeping me down. Your ignorance of the value of "humanitarian instincts" reflects poorly on our species." /// Exactly. Its in our genes. Those who recognize and deal with it have their genes sent into the future. Those who don't, have I opinions of themselves.

And Darwin says: Let the games continue.
Great, now you don't understand evolution either. "It's in our genes" accounts for humanitarian instincts just as much as for our paranoia. When we employ our humanitarian instincts, we develop cities and civilizations; when we employ our paranoia, we destroy cities and civilizations. As a species, we have expanded because of our humanitarian instincts and despite our paranoia.

People often misunderstand "survival of the fittest" to mean "survival of the one who can kill off all the rest".
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:30 am

Unless its "all" benefit (a fairy tale to keep the natives asleep while cheap labor supplies Big Capital) and ZERO burden .... NO ONE has added up each side and stuck the balance. Likewise....while I do assume some immigration movements have been beneficial.....can they ALL BE BENEFICIAL? Or could some JUDGMENT be exercised????

Monolithic thinking. Never accurate. But to even ask the question gets labels thrown around from one side and the other.

I thought the National Dish of England was Bangers and Mash? Anyhoo.....its been listed above: just a few of the places in turmoil RIGHT NOW because of minority unrest within a society.

Seems like a simple objective truth to me. Only AFTER THAT, does one apply values to the pros and cons.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:36 am

A "minority adversarial element" is not the same thing as "Sharia law replacing the Constitution". /// Correct. Just picture the standard Venn Diagram.

And your view that nation states suffer because of internal adversity is the paranoid version of my view that nations grow through diversity of ideas. /// Diversity of Ideas is good unless one of those ideas is to do away with the Constitutional Bill of rights and establish a one religion society....and even that is manageable but only as long as the idea does not motivate action. While home grown terrorists have hit a few buildings in the USA, there is a disproportionate amount of bombing from the Gubment by Sharia young male Muslim subset. Thats a fact................want to ignore/absorb such attacks and assume X will always be too small? Why?

"It's in our genes" accounts for humanitarian instincts just as much as for our paranoia....//// Exactly....its a balance. I see no balance of the competing realities when the conclusion is made that its all wonderful.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Gord » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:42 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Unless its "all" benefit (a fairy tale to keep the natives asleep while cheap labor supplies Big Capital) and ZERO burden .... NO ONE has added up each side and stuck the balance.
And therefore god it's bad, right?
Likewise....while I do assume some immigration movements have been beneficial.....can they ALL BE BENEFICIAL? Or could some JUDGMENT be exercised????
Judgement is exercised. Have you ever tried to emigrate to the US? It isn't exactly an open gate.
Monolithic thinking. Never accurate. But to even ask the question gets labels thrown around from one side and the other.
You didn't just ask the question, you pronounced the answer. Others get to argue against it, especially the parts that are wrong.
I thought the National Dish of England was Bangers and Mash? Anyhoo.....its been listed above: just a few of the places in turmoil RIGHT NOW because of minority unrest within a society.
Where are you getting your information? England is in turmoil? Have you alerted the citizens there to this fact so they will know?

Oops, looks like I spoke too soon: http://www.express.co.uk/sport/cricket/ ... them-again
England in turmoil as Kiwis blast them again
Curse those cricket-playing foreigners who aren't even immigrants! :shakefist:
Seems like a simple objective truth to me. Only AFTER THAT, does one apply values to the pros and cons.
Yes, you should definitely get some facts before you declare that immigration is bad for the Constitution.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Poodle » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:39 am

Sory fur mty riting. Im pzting this frum theUK. Am in me bunker, and theirz nit much light or air here after the laytist outbrake of immgrunt attax - the basturdz R everywear.

Bobbo, the UK is not in turmoil. Nor is it being threatened by hordes of crazed Muslims staging coups left, right and centre. The most important thing in England at the moment is the defeat by Wales yesterday in the Rugby. The most important thing in Scotland is whether or not to go on their own way rather than stay in the Union - and that's a discussion led by Scots in Scotland. You are either lying or getting your information from extremist sources. There is a bit of political hooha going on in Northern Ireland, but then there usually is - and it ain't caused by immigrants unless you use the centuries-old partisan argument.

As I said in an earlier post, the UK has been augmented by immigration since time immemorial. We're still here.

I fear your slip is showing.

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Poodle » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:50 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I have 50 examples of Nation States that suffer from having a minority adversarial element in their society. I have zero examples of Nation States that suffered from having excluded refugees.
This is an extremely strange statement. The Irish, Armenian, Jewish, Huguenot, White Russian, Greek and Lebanese diasporas, all settled refugees in other countries, that have brought great benefit to those nation states.

When Foreign Secretary , Jack Straw made Chicken Tikka, the national dish of England, he was being honest and proud of England's new cuisine. When Rome left in 400AD and abandoned Roman refugees in England, it left a bureaucracy that evolved into modern England. England still has knights, (Equites) and "Counts" and "Dukes" from the Roman army. Population transfers are generally beneficial in the long run, after initial local prejudiced behaviour has faded.
Ckicken Tikka Masala, Matt. And very nice it is too.

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:38 pm

Poodle says: "Bobbo, the UK is not in turmoil." ??? and goes on to explain England is happy while Scotland has a huge and continuous secession movement. Illustrating my very point this time without regard to Muslim Religion which seems to confuse too many otherwise of good will and sound thinking ability. NATIONS do not fare well when large sections of it have different cultural values.

The best and most undeniable situation for this right now might be Israel? Main population is Jewish, minority population but growing fast is Muslim.....hmmm...or maybe not. How about the sub Saharan countries with "tribal" conflicts going on right now where 100k's of people are being hacked to death with bodies thrown into wells to poison the water? I've heard, but don't remember: religious differences, among others.

In human history: its ALWAYS BEEN solve for X. USA experience is unique, all that empty space to begin with. Just murder off all the Indians, which is just solving for X, and then all the culturally adverse can be kicked out of Pennsylvania and sent to Utah. Now, remove the empty space from the equation and try adding more disparate ingredients. I think its called pressure cooking.

You look around the world at the countries with the highest happiness scores and they are all "homogeneous" like Japan, Nordic Countries, Tibet. Everyone being the same does have some benefits: they don't have the conflicts of diversity.

There are PROS and CONS, good and bad, TO ===========>EVERYTHING. Zealots of one group or the other will admit to only one side of the issue.

I just say: while co2 may be good for plants for the time being, in more time, too much co2 is a bad thing. Just like minority views that wish to impose their values on everyone else. Same thing with less predictability.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Poodle » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:16 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Poodle says: "Bobbo, the UK is not in turmoil." ??? and goes on to explain England is happy while Scotland has a huge and continuous secession movement. Illustrating my very point this time without regard to Muslim Religion which seems to confuse too many otherwise of good will and sound thinking ability. NATIONS do not fare well when large sections of it have different cultural values ...
You're very good at wishful thinking, bobbo. If Scotland chooses to secede from the Union, than it will be done democratically and peacefully. Methinks you do not know what turmoil means.

Simply stating that "NATIONS do not fare well when large sections of it have different cultural values", despite your confusion between singularity and plurality, does not make it true. I would hazard a guess that there are many nations on this Earth made up of sets of people with different cultural values, and they are not all in turmoil. Indeed, I would hazard another guess that there are nations made up of a set of people with common cultural values which are in turmoil.

Your ideology makes you WISH your statement was true. It is not. Scotland may or may not secede. I am against the idea, but I am not in turmoil. If it happens, it will be done equitably and peacefully.

Why are trying to stir up {!#%@} where {!#%@} isn't happening?

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:35 pm

You're very good at wishful thinking, bobbo. /// I'm not wishing anything.

If Scotland chooses to secede from the Union, than it will be done democratically and peacefully. Methinks you do not know what turmoil means. /// Turmoil runs the gamut from hardly noticeable, to blood in the streets. So...Scotland secedes and the next day, no blood in the streets, so everything is fine and dandy? Seems like a short term and limited thinking to me. England has to move its submarines. Russia has a back door to those Emerald Ilses? What might happen 50 years later? Definitionally, the peaceful and democratic secession is turmoil in itself. The Union BROKE UP! The word is right there: something broke.

Simply stating that "NATIONS do not fare well when large sections of it have different cultural values", despite your confusion between singularity and plurality, does not make it true. /// True, thats why I gave examples.... that you ignore.

I would hazard a guess that there are many nations on this Earth made up of sets of people with different cultural values, and they are not all in turmoil. /// From the start, Ive said that some variation across the broad range of values is fine. Its when "certain" values achieve a high level that the concern is of note requiring the "SOLVE FOR X" challenge. You really aren't following the relevant issues closely at all.

Indeed, I would hazard another guess that there are nations made up of a set of people with common cultural values which are in turmoil. /// Over what? GIVE that example. Solve for X.

Your ideology makes you WISH your statement was true. It is not. Scotland may or may not secede. I am against the idea, but I am not in turmoil. If it happens, it will be done equitably and peacefully. /// Your country is BROKEN in half.... but "you" aren't in turmoil....so everything is fine. Can't get more insular in world appreciation than that. 100% focused on "you." You sound more American than Brit.

Why are trying to stir up {!#%@} where {!#%@} isn't happening? /// To avoid bigger {!#%@} in the future. "A nip in time saves nine."

Prove me wrong: Explain Israels challenge today. Allow the Palestinians to out breed them, or go total apartheid. Israel is solving for X right now. You can't have a Jewish State when the majority of voting citizens want all the land returned to Palestinians. You can't have a Constitutionally protected society of Religious Freedom (including freedom FROM religion) if the majority demand Sharia. And trouble in various forms come from less than revolutionary amounts of discord.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Poodle » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:42 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:So...Scotland secedes and the next day, no blood in the streets, so everything is fine and dandy? Seems like a short term and limited thinking to me. England has to move its submarines.
So they'll be moved. No bother.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Russia has a back door to those Emerald Ilses? What might happen 50 years later? Definitionally, the peaceful and democratic secession is turmoil in itself. The Union BROKE UP! The word is right there: something broke.
:lol: We may, of course be invaded by lizards from Arcturus before that happens.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:True, thats why I gave examples.... that you ignore.


As you ignore mine. Fair's fair.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:From the start, Ive said that some variation across the broad range of values is fine. Its when "certain" values achieve a high level that the concern is of note requiring the "SOLVE FOR X" challenge. You really aren't following the relevant issues closely at all.


An infinite variation across your very wide range of values leads to meaningless conclusions and allows you to say anything at all. As you have.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Over what? GIVE that example. Solve for X.
The UK - I keep telling you that.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Your country is BROKEN in half.... but "you" aren't in turmoil....so everything is fine. Can't get more insular in world appreciation than that. 100% focused on "you." You sound more American than Brit.
No - I'll tell you again. The UK is not broken in half, nor will it be broken in half if Scotland secede. It will be a democratic and peaceful process and the two nations will then get on with the job of working together. That's how things work here - and don't forget that it may not happen at all.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:To avoid bigger {!#%@} in the future. "A nip in time saves nine."
And here's the nub. You would impose political conditions because you wish to avoid something you don't like, and that something is defined by you in the first place. Thank goodness that the world has saviours like you. Where would we be without the benefit of your crystal ball clarity.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Prove me wrong: Explain Israels challenge today. Allow the Palestinians to out breed them, or go total apartheid.
Now we're getting somewhere. Dear, deary me!
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Israel is solving for X right now. You can't have a Jewish State when the majority of voting citizens want all the land returned to Palestinians. You can't have a Constitutionally protected society of Religious Freedom (including freedom FROM religion) if the majority demand Sharia. And trouble in various forms come from less than revolutionary amounts of discord.
Now, bobbo, I'd like you to carefully read what you just wrote about the wishes of a majority. Then consider your exhortations against the wishes of a majority. See where you're going wrong?

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:53 pm

Poodle: thank you for your careful consideration.

Do you block paste the entire posting and then edit out in order to have my name with each individual quote? That seems like too much work to me. Looks good though. I'll "try":
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Israel is solving for X right now. You can't have a Jewish State when the majority of voting citizens want all the land returned to Palestinians. You can't have a Constitutionally protected society of Religious Freedom (including freedom FROM religion) if the majority demand Sharia. And trouble in various forms come from less than revolutionary amounts of discord.



Now, bobbo, I'd like you to carefully read what you just wrote about the wishes of a majority. Then consider your exhortations against the wishes of a majority. See where you're going wrong?
I don't immediately connect to what you are saying. My best manufactured view is: I am addressing what living under a Constitution means. In general, through representatives, we live by Majority Rule...but..certain rights are guaranteed to any and everyone one: The Bill of Rights that protects a minority. Another wrinkle: you can think the Pope in Rome is right about not allowing Abortions, but its the supreme court that rules with interactions by Congress. you can think Sharia should be the law of the land, but its the supreme court that rules....

I'll stop there. I may be totally off your track. No. I don't see where I am going wrong. Where is that?
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:21 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: The Union BROKE UP! The word is right there: something broke.
Considering Australia left the colonies but remained in the Commonwealth as an equal partner, sort of destroys that argument. If Scotland left the Union, they would still be partners with England on other levels. These things happen and they are not bad things.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Prove me wrong: Explain Israels challenge today.
Primarily, Israel's problems are economic. The Palestinians will have a separate National homeland and Israel has no plan to exclusively re-engage this work force as cheap labour, as other middle east countries are entering into manufacture and will be in competition with Israel. The first reforms in Israel must be political, in removing the right for non-residents to vote and granting rights to residents in currently occupied and annexed territories, until they separate as a new nation.

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:39 am

"Considering Australia left the colonies but remained in the Commonwealth as an equal partner, sort of destroys that argument. If Scotland left the Union, they would still be partners with England on other levels. These things happen and they are not bad things." /// And then Wales breaks off, and then Lands End, and then the Cliffs of Mohair, Then Ireland, the Dover, then South London, then The Docks....every little insular group of people breaking off to form their own little fiefdoms, and then they all start fighting with one another again...."Same as it always was." BUT--the Scottish secession only proves the main point: if you want a direct challenge to the authority of the State and its citizens, then allow contentious anti-State attitudes and beliefs to be fostered and grow. Most historians recognize the slow march to a world gubment because as long as their are geographical/political distinctions: it leads to WAR.

...........and yes, I did leave out the most relevant fact of Australia: the decimation and destruction of the Aboriginals...because they did not/could not protect their culture.....so their culture and their land was taken..........as it always has been and would be in the future...........just like Scotland, or a half sized UK.

2. "Primarily, Israel's problems are economic." /// Do you have any link at all that supports that? The surrounding Arab and Persians countries that want to wipe Israel from the face of the map, or who have learned to stop saying that and wait for the right time, are primarily motivated by economics? Pull my finger.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:58 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:....And then Wales breaks off, and then Lands End, and then the Cliffs of Mohair, Then Ireland, the Dover, then South London, then The Docks....every little insular group of people breaking off to form their own little fiefdoms, and then they all start fighting with one another again...
Yes. this is called Balkanisation and we just went through this process with Jugoslavia. Australia attacked Indonesia ans separated East Timor under a UN resolution. These new nations are simply rearranging their relationships with their neighbours to get away from foreign control. Scotland didn't leave the UK because it made no economic sense. There are only 5,000,000 Scots.

Balkanisation is restricted by economic realities. The classic debate on this was the 70's proposal to separate North "industrial" Italy from Sth "tourism" Italy. it made no rational economic sense and was dropped. I have a vague memory that the same applied to the 80's French separatist movement in Canada.


bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Do you have any link at all that supports that?
Yes.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The surrounding Arab and Persians countries that want to wipe Israel from the face of the map,
They don't vote in Israel's elections, do they? So why are you bringing them up.

Are you Israeli?

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:03 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Do you have any link at all that supports that?

Yes. /// Good to know. Of course...any and every "event" in History can be given an economic analysis. And when borders change or gubments fall, a cultural analysis goes hand in hand.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:22 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Do you have any link at all that supports that?
http://www.oecd.org/israel/OECD-Society ... Israel.pdf
Start from there and work your way through the linked citations or reviewing the excel tables.

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:24 am

Thanks for the link. I know I will take some time to review it.

I think personal info is only a source for dead end silly sidetracks and prompts ab hominem attacks, which I really don't mind, except they are a waste of time.

I doubt you care one way or the other.....but if you do, PM me with any and all personal questions. I have no shame.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:42 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I doubt you care one way or the other.....but if you do, PM me with any and all personal questions. I have no shame.
Who is this post addressed towards? Is it me, because I asked if you were Israeli?

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:54 am

Well, I was wrong. 3 page report of a few statistics none of which touch upon the social unrest caused by the growing minority of Palestinians within their borders. In fact, I assume many of the "low" numbers are caused by the Jewish Citizens keeping the Palestinian Muslims in the lower/unemployed class? Or causing the higher than average birth rates? Can't tell...because information of interest is not provided.

THAT link provides no analysis at all that: "Primarily, Israel's problems are economic." //// The Primary challenge to the EXISTENCE of Israel is non Jews wanting to kill each and every one of them. Most live outside of Israel, but too many live within Israel. Hence the conclusion: Horrible Apartheid, or Cease to Exist. "It would violate international law"....but I think Israel should have put the Arabs on Notice that in any war they would keep any captured land. You know.... like baseball. No free pitches.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:55 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I doubt you care one way or the other.....but if you do, PM me with any and all personal questions. I have no shame.
Who is this post addressed towards? Is it me, because I asked if you were Israeli?
Yes...sorry. That was to you. In context....no one else. I came from a forum where nesting of responses was used......but I can change!
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:15 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: THAT link provides no analysis at all that: "Primarily, Israel's problems are economic."
It did actually. It runs unsustainable negative deficits, supported by foreign capital injection (aid). It's population living below the poverty line has increased and unemployment is increasing. Its military is costing 5.9% of the country's GDP, when other country's average 2%. Didn't you read that in the citations I told you to read?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Hence the conclusion: Horrible Apartheid, or Cease to Exist. "It would violate international law"....but I think Israel should have put the Arabs on Notice that in any war they would keep any captured land. You know.... like baseball. No free pitches.
So you are saying, that if the Arabs won the 1973 war and captured Israeli lands than that's just bad luck for Israel? Is that a view you share with Hitler or something you invented on your own? Oddly the United Nations forbids that.

You are an Israeli aren't you?

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Poodle » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:20 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:... And then Wales breaks off, and then Lands End, and then the Cliffs of Mohair, Then Ireland, the Dover, then South London, then The Docks....every little insular group of people breaking off to form their own little fiefdoms, and then they all start fighting with one another again...."Same as it always was." BUT--the Scottish secession only proves the main point: if you want a direct challenge to the authority of the State and its citizens, then allow contentious anti-State attitudes and beliefs to be fostered and grow. Most historians recognize the slow march to a world gubment because as long as their are geographical/political distinctions: it leads to WAR.
Wales has already stated its position - it will remain within the Union. Land's End cannot make that decision, nor the Cliffs of Mohair???, nor Dover, South London etc etc. - any more than I as an individual can. Ireland, of course, already seceded from the Union some time ago - you did your homework, I assume? Northern Ireland (which I presume is the bit you're referring to) is an ongoing problem which is being worked on - slowly and surely, the problems are being ironed out. Believe me, a re-united Ireland is the last thing the Irish want at the moment.

You totally misunderstand the UK, bobbo. There will never be another war between England and Scotland - those days are long, long gone. The UK is not a state constructed by conquest any more (not for centuries). It is a union of like-minded people with common aims. Even if Scotland secedes, there will be an informal union of like-minded people. The UK does not release its armed forces upon sections of its own population and will not do so in the future. The Scots (at least, those supportive of independence) are not challenging the state - they are demanding that their bit of the state is controlled closer to home. People in Yorkshire are saying the same thing. It's their right to say such things - the forces of retribution are not about to be set upon them.

You have a simplistic view of the way things are. I hope it never becomes meaningful in this particular corner of the world.

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by OutOfBreath » Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:28 pm

Just as an aside, Bobbo, can you point to any country in the world that is "monocultural" without there being any minority groups of differing cultures?

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:40 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:Just as an aside, Bobbo, can you point to any country in the world that is "monocultural" without there being any minority groups of differing cultures?

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Lots of "Island Nations" are totally homogenous. In those places, Hatfield and McCoy intergenerational conflict arises over who's grandfather stole who's pig.

But let me ask of you, and most others objecting in this thread, to try to keep a nuanced idea in your head as you think about the proposition.

1. Diversity is a given whether you like it or not.
2. My own opinion is that most diversity is good for the society as a whole. Makes it more robust, responsive, interesting and so forth.
3. NOT ALL DIVERSITIES ARE GOOD. The point most here blithely ignore thinking it isn't true or can be "worked out."
4. On issue: any, I'll say it again: ANY diversity that goes against the legitimacy of the governing state is going to lead to blood in the streets once it reaches an X level of support within the population.
5. My position is that any society, and its members and forum flogging fear deniers, does itself well to identify any ideology it has contact with that seeks to overthrow it and take action as early as possible to deny its growth.
6. The Muslim religion is the only one I know of that has clear expressed tenants saying that any gubmental system that is not based on Sharia is wrong and evil and must be taken over. That is a kind of diversity that all non Muslim states should take care that it does not gain a foothold in their own counties. What in the world would be the benefit of allowing such notions to grow in a non Sharia State?
7. Off course....not all people who hold the Muslim faith believe that Sharia is the only way. Those people aren't the problem (du jour). Its the ones who do hold such view that action should be taken against: eg--don't give them a visa stay in the USA. EG==don't allow them to teach such nonsense in their Mosques. Yes, issues of freedom of religion and freedom of speech are intertwined but so is the issue of Subversion of the US Constitution. Its the latter issue that should control but gets immediately lost/ignored in these discussions.
8. The truth is what hits you in the nose when you think nothing is there.
9. There are lots of side issues and closely related issues. The Scotland secession is one such issue. To my knowledge, the Scots don't have any idealogical drive to do away with the English Parliament and impose Kilt Wearning on everyone. The Sharia based Muslims...do.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:37 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: THAT link provides no analysis at all that: "Primarily, Israel's problems are economic."
It did actually. It runs unsustainable negative deficits, supported by foreign capital injection (aid). It's population living below the poverty line has increased and unemployment is increasing. Its military is costing 5.9% of the country's GDP, when other country's average 2%. Didn't you read that in the citations I told you to read?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Hence the conclusion: Horrible Apartheid, or Cease to Exist. "It would violate international law"....but I think Israel should have put the Arabs on Notice that in any war they would keep any captured land. You know.... like baseball. No free pitches.
So you are saying, that if the Arabs won the 1973 war and captured Israeli lands than that's just bad luck for Israel? Is that a view you share with Hitler or something you invented on your own? Oddly the United Nations forbids that.

You are an Israeli aren't you?
Neither of your points make any sense to me. Raw stats alone do not establish a "threat" of any kind to any State. The stats have to be connected to some argument.

"....if the Arabs won the 1973 war and captured Israeli lands than that's just bad luck for Israel?"/// Well, if the outcome of a military engagement is luck, then I wouldn't call this good luck for Israel ..... would you? In fact, as stated, this comment is nonsensical on its face. Did you mean to say something else??? or in addition to?

"Is that a view you share with Hitler or something you invented on your own?" //// I dunno. If you have the same idea of luck as someone else, do you share it? But one thing is for sure: I didn't invent this idea on my own. I can't think of a single example of a side that lost a war thinking it was other than bad luck. Hitler added in the notion of sabotage. OH WAIT: "The Mouse that Roared." Comedy Gold there. Yes....any small nation that has attacked and lost a war with the USA has good luck.

Totally true statement, also, totally misleading: I fought in the Yom Kippur War.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:27 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Neither of your points make any sense to me.
I guessed that.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Raw stats alone do not establish a "threat" of any kind to any State.
Econometrics is the analysis of economic data and application to financial ratio indicators, to determine risks facing a country. You will find entire divisions of your Treasury who work on econometric analysis. As you are ex-IDF, you may be aware that the Directorate of Military Intelligence performs the same economic analysis on its neighbours, to predict potential military threats. (stockpiling of tungsten suggests planning for rapid expansion of ordinance production and so on)

Regarding: Conquest at battle to justify annexation of land
Matthew Ellard wrote:....if the Arabs won the 1973 war and captured Israeli lands than that's just bad luck for Israel?"
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Well, if the outcome of a military engagement is luck, then I wouldn't call this good luck for Israel .....
Stop dodging. You claimed that Israel owns the Palestinian lands because they won a war against the Arab coalition in 1973. Would have you accepted handing over of Israeli lands if the Arab coalition had won? What if the Arab Coalition took 90% of Israel?

PS It was "luck". Ariel Sharon lead a successful armoured attack into the side of an Egyptian armoured brigade, but utilised his entire reserve and remaining ammunition. If the Egyptian counter attacked with their reserve, that would have eliminated through isolation, all Israeli heavy armour behind a new coalition line in front of the Suez. Egypt did not counter attack under external foreign pressure. Israel's victory was not on the battlefield.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I fought in the Yom Kippur War.
Good. Then you know about Sharon and why he was dismissed after the 1973 war.

( I have general interest in Israeli commercial conversion packages to upgrade older Russian armour. As you know there is a lot of older Russian armour floating around Africa and the middle East. As you also know Israel was still using upgraded WWII Centurions, Super Shermans and other tanks in the 1973 war. )

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:52 pm

Ellard says: "Econometrics is the analysis of economic data and application to financial ratio indicators, to determine risks facing a country." //// I agree. But the linked report only gave the raw data. No determinations are made.

I'm not ex-IDF, nor do I currently serve.

"You claimed that Israel owns the Palestinian lands because they won a war against the Arab coalition in 1973."/// I don't recall saying that and my quick word search doesn't turn that up and its my understanding that Israel gave back all the land it occupied during/after the 1973 war. What I said "somewhere" was that all land is owned by force of arms and that if I were Israel I would stop giving conquered land back to the losers.

"Would have you accepted handing over of Israeli lands if the Arab coalition had won? What if the Arab Coalition took 90% of Israel?" /// This follow on what was said just above. The relevant question is: would the Arab coalition give land back? ......I don't think so and it wouldn't matter what I thought or what the UN Thought. The point of Arab Coalition Invasions of Israel is to TAKE THE LAND BACK.... and to kill every single Jew they can find. You are kinda missing the whole point of the conflict..... as seemingly so many Jews do too.

Luck defined: the combination of ifs and buts that have one side winning and the other losing.

"Israel's victory was not on the Battlefield." /// That happens so often in History. could make one an avid Military Historian....but then how would one feed one's self?

"Good. Then you know about Sharon and why he was dismissed after the 1973 war." /// You mean 10 years later? Yes, Israel REALPOLITIK totally off the rails. "You need me up on that wall!"
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:34 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Raw stats alone do not establish a "threat" of any kind to any State.
Matthew Ellard wrote:Econometrics is the analysis of economic data and application to financial ratio indicators, to determine risks facing a country.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I agree. But the linked report only gave the raw data. No determinations are made.
The blue links lead to comparative tables.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I fought in the Yom Kippur War.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I'm not ex-IDF, nor do I currently serve.
Arab coalition members don't call it the Yom Kippur war. Who were you fighting for?

Matthew Ellard wrote: You claimed that Israel owns the Palestinian lands because they won a war against the Arab coalition in 1973."
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: ...its my understanding that Israel gave back all the land it occupied during/after the 1973 war.
You are 100% wrong.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: What I said "somewhere" was that all land is owned by force of arms and that if I were Israel I would stop giving conquered land back to the losers.
Stop dodging. You have not answered my original question. (see below)
Matthew Ellard wrote:"Would have you accepted handing over of Israeli lands if the Arab coalition had won? What if the Arab Coalition took 90% of Israel?"
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The relevant question is: would the Arab coalition give land back?
Try again. Answer my question

Matthew Ellard wrote:"Good. Then you know about Sharon and why he was dismissed after the 1973 war."
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: You mean 10 years later?
and he was relieved of duty in February 1974.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Sharon

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Letter ... War-417779
General Ariel Sharon was guilty of “a long chain of dereliction of duty and discipline” on the southern front during the Yom Kippur War, according to allegations made by his commanding officer at the time, and first released for publication this week.

I read a lot of military history and the IDF publishes many papers, on where it made mistakes.

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:52 am

Matt--good response. Somehow we are misconnecting. Pulling teeth rather than raucous good fun? I assume, fairly soon, we might wear ourselves into it? Probably on a different subject. Pros and Cons to asking questions rather than making declarative statements?

My secretary is off doing my dry cleaning, so I'll quote my way:

1. The blue links lead to comparative tables. //// I assume to more raw data then? What is your favorite analytical argument made in the link? Pick one, and I'll study it closely.

2. Arab coalition members don't call it the Yom Kippur war. Who were you fighting for? /// The Arabs weren't the only ones with a coalition. I fought (sic) for the Israels, but was in the employ (sic) of not Israel.

3. bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
...its my understanding that Israel gave back all the land it occupied during/after the 1973 war.

You are 100% wrong. /// Ok. Not the main point. .........Oh.....wait a minute. 100% wrong? Meaning they kept all the land they occupied? Gaza, West Bank, Sinai...they gave all parts back 100%? Like I said---I wouldn't give back any...absent a total peace accord etc.

4. bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
The relevant question is: would the Arab coalition give land back?

Try again. Answer my question /// What magic words are you looking for? I said HELL NO....or copy and paste: "The point of Arab Coalition Invasions of Israel is to TAKE THE LAND BACK.... and to kill every single Jew they can find." Kinda says no?

5. Sharon /// OK. Whatever. I didn't know it was immediately after the war..... I was busy at the time. I thought, of interest, he got dismissed or quit under pressure for allowing a Lebanese (I also fought (sic) for them too in the Yom Kippur war) massacre of Palistinians seeking refuge in their land? Lots of {!#%@} going on then.... as in all wars.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:40 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: Arab coalition members don't call it the Yom Kippur war. Who were you fighting for? [/color]
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: The Arabs weren't the only ones with a coalition. I fought (sic) for the Israels, but was in the employ (sic) of not Israel.
You cannot be Druze, as they fought under Israeli command, or 'in their employ" shall we say. Who do you think you were fighting with in the 1973 war? What brigade? What rank? Which service? What campaign ribbons do you wear?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: ...its my understanding that Israel gave back all the land it occupied during/after the 1973 war.
Matthew Ellard wrote: You are 100% wrong.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Ok. Not the main point.
It was the main point.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: (I also fought (sic) for them too in the Yom Kippur war) massacre of Palistinians seeking refuge in their land? Lots of {!#%@} going on then.... as in all wars.
You were a para-military member of the Sth Lebanese Phalanges and you took part in the massacre of innocent refugees in refugee camps? Are you ex-Lebanese Christian militia, and worked for an Israeli Einsatzgruppen keeping the Palestinian refugee population down?

Please be honest. I know this history.

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:50 am

1. Ha, ha. Good times.... all the memories. I "sic'd" fought as I didn't fight. I supplied Israel and Lebanon both with War materiel, admittedly of very different import. Very "Major Major" I thought at the time. Making sense only if one thinks there are back room deals being struck above my pay grade. I greatly assume, to a moral certainty that Lebanon knew about Israel. Only stupidly assuming that Israel knew about Lebanon.----scratch that........this is what memories are good for..........of course Israel knew what we were doing. Big Ass Radar Cross Section.

2, I HATE IT....when I miss main points.

3. Nope....totally third party activity. didn't fight or kill anybody..... directly.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:07 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I fought in the Yom Kippur War.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I "sic'd" fought as I didn't fight. I supplied Israel and Lebanon both with War materiel, admittedly of very different import.
How so?

As you may have worked out from my interest in Israeli update packs for armour, that I have some interest in current and historical arms trading activities. I assume you are talking about secondary items, like clothing, food, boots and transport vehicle spare parts? Also, back then as now, generally arms traders are registered under the end user certificate regime. Were you working for a registered organisation?


I'm suspicious that your claim is complete nonsense. You don't seem to know which army you served in. Additionally in 1973, if you were a young 30 years old arms trader, that would make you 72 years old today, at a minimum. Even stranger, if you are ex-SLA Lebanese Christian militia, you were supplied by Israel, as a civilian militia buffer to the PLO transfer of their base to Beirut before the war. The Maronite command structure of the normal Lebanese army adhered to the end user certificate regime, as it's weaponry was from foreign aid, from France, the USA and Russia.

Have you ever worn a uniform? Which one? How did you get around conscription?

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:20 am

Ha, ha....Matthew...your questions are becoming more pointed. I think you would have me within the 20 question limit? I would not be responding to "personal questions" but I sense your honest interest in the subject material. Plus--I've always been a bit pissed at the "Catch -22" mercantilism I was unable to ignore. So, I engage.

As you may have worked out from my interest in Israeli update packs for armour, that I have some interest in current and historical arms trading activities. /// Yes.

I assume you are talking about secondary items, like clothing, food, boots and transport vehicle spare parts? /// Medical supplies for one side. Artillery Shells for the other.

Also, back then as now, generally arms traders are registered under the end user certificate regime. Were you working for a registered organisation? /// No.

I'm suspicious that your claim is complete nonsense. /// Always an issue on the web.

You don't seem to know which army you served in. /// Hows that? I can't deny serving in an Armey if I don't know which Army I served in. btw--I did not serve in any army (sic!)

Additionally in 1973, if you were a young 30 years old arms trader, that would make you 72 years old today, at a minimum. /// I was younger--thank you. Actually........one of the very youngest for what I did.

Even stranger, if you are ex-SLA Lebanese Christian militia, you were supplied by Israel, as a civilian militia buffer to the PLO transfer of their base to Beirut before the war. The Maronite command structure of the normal Lebanese army adhered to the end user certificate regime, as it's weaponry was from foreign aid, from France, the USA and Russia. /// As a militia...I assume they fought and killed? Not me.

Have you ever worn a uniform? /// Yes. Oooooh....so much closer.

Which one? /// Now.....thats the whole game.

How did you get around conscription? //// volunteered to avoid it.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:03 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ha, ha....Matthew...your questions are becoming more pointed. I think you would have me within the 20 question limit? I would not be responding to "personal questions" but I sense your honest interest in the subject material. Plus--I've always been a bit pissed at the "Catch -22" mercantilism I was unable to ignore. So, I engage.
You made a claim on a skeptic forum. I am a skeptic, on that skeptic forum who asks for evidence for claims. There is no 20 question limit.
Matthew Ellard wrote:I assume you are talking about secondary items, like clothing, food, boots and transport vehicle spare parts?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Medical supplies for one side. Artillery Shells for the other.
I now know you are lying and probably quite young. "Artillery Shells" was very funny. You obviously haven't got a clue how heavy ordinance is manufactured and distributed. I already explained how econometric intelligence on tungsten, for example, allows for the assessment or potential future heavy ordinance production. Why do you think I know that? :D
Matthew Ellard wrote:Also, back then as now, generally arms traders are registered under the end user certificate regime. Were you working for a registered organisation?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No.
Make me laugh. What route did you import "artillery shells" into Lebanon.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I fought in the Yom Kippur war
Matthew Ellard wrote:You don't seem to know which army you served in.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Hows that? I can't deny serving in an Armey if I don't know which Army I served in. btw--I did not serve in any army (sic!)
I can't hear you over the back peddling. :D
Matthew Ellard wrote: Additionally in 1973, if you were a young 30 years old arms trader, that would make you 72 years old today, at a minimum.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I was younger--thank you. Actually........one of the very youngest for what I did.
Complete bull-{!#%@}. :D
Matthew Ellard wrote:Even stranger, if you are ex-SLA Lebanese Christian militia, you were supplied by Israel, as a civilian militia buffer to the PLO transfer of their base to Beirut before the war. The Maronite command structure of the normal Lebanese army adhered to the end user certificate regime, as it's weaponry was from foreign aid, from France, the USA and Russia.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:As a militia...I assume they fought and killed?
So you don't actually know who the SLA Christian Phalange militia were, yet claim you were an arms trader in Lebanon at this exact time? You are clearly lying.
Matthew Ellard wrote:How did you get around conscription?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: volunteered to avoid it.
Please explain how you did that in detail? :D

Are you Lebanese Maronite or Israeli?

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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:23 am

1. "There is no 20 question limit." /// Oh. Well then........I must conform. 20 questions is a popular game...or was before I phones.

2. " "Artillery Shells" was very funny. You obviously haven't got a clue how heavy ordinance is manufactured and distributed. /// Well, from memory: 65 MM Howitzer Shells. Is that not artillery? You gun nuts are so proud of your technical lingo. Indeed I don't know how such things are manufactured....but {!#%@} man....I delivered them, the last step in the deliver system. True...I don't know how I got them. They wuz there when I showed up for work.

3. Make me laugh. What route did you import "artillery shells" into Lebanon. //// That too is almost a direct revelation...which now, even after 2 beers, I pulled away from. All will be told, but I do enjoy the game. I assume you do too.....smileys and all?

4. " can't hear you over the back peddling." /// I'm directly confronting and dismissing your statement. THats not back peddling. Is English your first language? You miss what is not even nuance.

5. Complete bull-{!#%@}. //// How is my age complete BS? I might be wrong.....but I would only then be in the youngest group for what I/we did. There is always such a group for every large undertaking. What is your evidence/indices for my statement not being entirely accurate? You know....help me learn to spot BS.

6. So you don't actually know who the SLA Christian Phalange militia were, yet claim you were an arms trader in Lebanon at this exact time? You are clearly lying. //// Never heard of that group. I never said I delivered arms to Lebanon. Clearly.... the subtleties and exactitudes/precision of the English language escape you. This will be noted in your records.

7. How did I volunteer rather than wait to get drafted? Details???? /// Well, I had scrambled eggs for breakfast then drove myself to the recruitment center. Pretty much like everyone else.

Now.........for another beer.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:54 am

The middle of my current beer tells me those were 55 MM Howitzer Shells. I wish I could remember who got them and who got the medical supplies, a horrendous irony at the time that I thought might explain the transactions in toto....but Heineken wiped those cells from my active memory. Under (other) chemicals, or hypnosis, that info should still be there. I was dumbstruck at the stupidity of war. Haven't learned anything to change that opinion.
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:12 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well, from memory: 65 MM Howitzer Shells. Is that not artillery?
Penetration capped, ballistic capped? HE?, Star? In arms trading, you use the proper ordinance name as ordinance only fits specific guns. Additionally, sadly for you, the Lebanese army didn't use 65mm howitzers and 65mm howtizers were last made in 1906 as mountain guns for donkeys to carry.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: You gun nuts are so proud of your technical lingo.
I'm not a gun nut. I'm a tax lawyer who works in the entertainment industry, I don't own any guns. I've never touched a fire arm.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I fought in the Yom Kippur war
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:True...I don't know how I got them. They wuz there when I showed up for work.
You loaded 65mm ordinance in Lebanon? Where did you pick up and where did you drop off? Oddly, the Lebanese Army collected ordinance direct from the foreign manufacturers, as required by the end user certificate regime.
Matthew Ellard wrote: Complete bull-{!#%@}.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: How is my age complete BS? I might be wrong.....but I would only then be in the youngest group for what I/we did.
Your story has changed from, you fighting in the Yom Kippur war, to that of being a deliveryman in Lebanon, delivering 65mm ordinance, that went out of production in 1906, for a 65mm gun the Lebanese army didn't have.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:What is your evidence/indices for my statement not being entirely accurate? You know....help me learn to spot BS.
Read the above paragraph.
Matthew Ellard wrote: So you don't actually know who the SLA Christian Phalange militia were, yet claim you were an arms trader in Lebanon at this exact time? You are clearly lying.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Never heard of that group.
So you have no idea there was a civil war in Lebanon in 1975, lead by Maronite SLA Christian militia, yet you sold arms to them? :D
http://i-cias.com/e.o/phalangists.htm
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Phalangist-Party
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Phala ... anon).aspx

bobbo_the_Pragmatist, an hour ago wrote:btw--I did not serve in any army
bobbo_the_Pragmatist, wrote:How did I volunteer rather than wait to get drafted? Details???? Well, I had scrambled eggs for breakfast then drove myself to the recruitment center. Pretty much like everyone else.
Please write your lies down first, so you don't make these sort of errors when making stuff up on the spot.

This is a skeptic forum and not a creative writing forum.
:D

Matthew Ellard
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:17 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The middle of my current beer tells me those were 55 MM Howitzer Shells.
This is going to be interesting....Russian or USA. Did you read the writing on the boxes?

Was the writing in English?

Был тип постановление определяется на русском или английском языке?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:24 am

So.....are there 55 MM Howitzers?

I was greatly interested in tax law..........because it was so complicated. Basis points for inherited property on roll over to avoid probate tax payments?...Ha, ha....not even close, I think it was workers comp related. I read that provision (200 something?--maybe 600? Point 10 something??) about 10 times and like Schrodinger's Cat...could never tell if I got it or not.

.....and entertainment law....one of my favorites if I could have a choice. What? You just buy a lot of real estate, right? Greenlight tonight had the producer wanting to film in Georgia for the 25% tax rebate. He was probably an entertainment lawyer. "Thats for Lawyerville.." Made me smile.

Too many beers. As a lawyer I'da thought you would understand the addage that the truth is complicated enough there is no reason to lie? Disappointing. But what lawyer isn't?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: A Religious Test--real or phobic?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:25 am

Good. Glad my ego got involved and I posted the correction. I shudder at the abuse if I had tried to claim a faulty memory!

American...but I don't recall any markings. I was told. They weren't in boxes, but rather placed one next to the others in groups of about 100? or 10x10 to a load.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?