A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:44 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:55 am
Ecuador loosens controls on Julian Assange:
Assange considering testifying before US Senate Intelligence Committee
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/09/uk/j ... index.html

Assange already flipped a month ago about Russia controlling Wikileaks. That's how the USA indicted the Russians who hacked the documents that appeared on Wikileaks. :lol: :lol: :lol:

However you missed the best bits of the deal...... " Assange has been ordered by the Ecuadorian government to steer clear of any and all political issues. In addition, Assange needs to keep the bathroom he uses at the embassy clean and take care of his cat, according to a memo on the Ecuadorean website Codigo Vidrio.

The memo warned that the embassy retains to right to seize any item of Assange’s equipment or ask British authorities to do so on its behalf.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:24 pm

I'm telling you guys.

Sure Assange will head for where they will let him in, especially if they have enough to eat and flush toilets.

But he really wants the USA.
Aldous Huxley wrote:A government with a comprehensive plan for the betterment of society is a government that uses torture.

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:23 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote: Sure Assange will head for where they will let him in, especially if they have enough to eat and flush toilets. But he really wants the USA.
I'm more concerned for his cat, Michi, which lives at the embassy. I can imagine Assange's plea bargain somehow includes the cat. I'm sort of OK with that. If the British authorities promise to let a UK Assange fan take care of his cat, then Assange may be a bit more open in discussing Russian control of Wikileaks , with little cost to the UK DPP. :D

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Assange's Cat / Counter kittygation

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:38 am

The news isn't good for Julian Assange's cat. Mr Assange has launched a court case against the Ecuadorian ambassador claiming it was unfair that he, Assange, had to have regular showers and look after his cat, which also lives at the embassy.

Julian Assange sues over 'inhuman' conditions, 'denigrating' cat obligations in Ecuadorean embassy
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-20/ ... s/10399652

The Ecuadorians have cut off all Assange's communications and internet again. They will ask him to leave the building if he continues with the litigation, so they can seek privacy with their own legal team. :D

Saudi Arabia has offered to send a fifteen member "Julian Assange Removal Team" however, the Ecuadorians will probably ask London Metropolitan Police to remove Julian Assange and take him to remand to stand trial for absconding bail.

It is unlikely his cat will be allowed to join Assange in Reading Gaol (Remand wing) :lol:

(In reality, this is all a show for Assange to save face, and he has probably already done a deal with the USA to give evidence about the Russians taking control of Wikileaks)

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:25 am

Deep state apparatchiks whose lies were exposed by Snowden, Assange, and Manning, should not escape prosecution:
https://consortiumnews.com/2018/11/11/j ... g-the-law/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:00 am

Tom Palven wrote:Deep state apparatchiks
There is no such thing as Fox New's "Deep State Conspiracy"
.
It is simply right wing pro-Trump propaganda that you spam on our forum.
hannity deep state 6.jpg
If you were to mimic Fox's claim that the "Deep State" was a cabal of government employees, who went against their elected government's orders then you would be claiming Snowden was a member of the "Deep State" ........but you don't do that do you? That's how pathetic you Fox fans are. :lol: :lol:
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:04 pm

Not sure I agree with this whole article. Erdogan has probably imprisoned journalists who he thinks collaborated with the coup attempt of his democratically-elected government, while General al-Sisi in Egypt has imprisoned those who opposed his military coup of Egypt's democratically-elected government, for example.

https://original.antiwar.com/heather-wo ... al-deceit/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Monument to Idiocy is Being Planned

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:38 am

So Tom Palven?

Tell us more about Paul Manafort meeting with Julian Assange, three times, to get the Russians to release anti- Clinton emails on Wikileaks?

Are you saying Assange is "a hero" for working with the Russians to destroy USA democracy?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... an-embassy

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A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:37 am

We are talking about the release of actual emails by Assange, not the release of disinformation created by Russian secret police, so why is the release of information about Trump's and Manifort's activities okay, but release of information about Hillary's, John Brennan's, and James Clapper's activities going to destroy American democracy?

In other words, how is getting the truth out about everything, which Assange and Snowden have been doing, going to destroy democracy, and why do you as an Australian care so much?
https://spectator.org/339762-2/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:51 am

Wrong link above, which I can't seem to correct. Here, I hope, is the correct one:
https://spectator.org/why-britain-doesn ... gate-docs/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:25 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:37 am
In other words, how is getting the truth out about everything, which Assange and Snowden have been doing, going to destroy democracy, and why do you as an Australian care so much?
https://spectator.org/339762-2/
That's the key isn't it? Wikileaks have by no means gotten the truth out about "everything". Only about what suits russia (and trump). Selective telling of truth is just as effective as lies. (And incidentally why control groups are crucial in experiments - checking the baseline). Wikileaks may have begun idealistically, but seems now mostly a tool for russian/right-wing interests.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:26 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:25 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:37 am
In other words, how is getting the truth out about everything, which Assange and Snowden have been doing, going to destroy democracy, and why do you as an Australian care so much?
https://spectator.org/339762-2/
That's the key isn't it? Wikileaks have by no means gotten the truth out about "everything". Only about what suits russia (and trump). Selective telling of truth is just as effective as lies. (And incidentally why control groups are crucial in experiments - checking the baseline). Wikileaks may have begun idealistically, but seems now mostly a tool for russian/right-wing interests.

Peace
Dan

So you agree with Trump, Bolton, Matthew Ellard, and other neoconservatives that Snowden and Assange should be imprisoned or executed as traitors?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:50 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:25 pm
That's the key isn't it? Wikileaks have by no means gotten the truth out about "everything".
The truth is never completely gotten out. BS to make such a critique.
OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:25 pm
Only about what suits russia (and trump).
OR===> those looking for the truth of any given reported issue.
OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:25 pm
Selective telling of truth is just as effective as lies.
Gee whiz. What kind of spin is this? Truth is truth. If you think something relevant and important has been left out: add it in. Just don't be stoopid.
OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:25 pm
(And incidentally why control groups are crucial in experiments - checking the baseline).
Thats not what control groups do. Nice Fallacy by Reference to BS.

OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:25 pm
Wikileaks may have begun idealistically, but seems now mostly a tool for russian/right-wing interests.
Isn't it sad you don't even recognize the admission the USA has no interest in the truth.....except to suppress it? Yea, verily. If Wiki is putting out truth that makes the USA look bad, and not putting out truth that makes Russia look bad...…….then SUPPLEMENT the truth with: MORE TRUTH. What are you?===>stoopid? ((I should stop have wine for breakfast.))
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:15 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:50 pm
[What are you?===>stoopid? ((I should stop have wine for breakfast.))
Yes, you should.

Peace
Dan
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"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:21 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:26 pm
So you agree with Trump, Bolton, Matthew Ellard, and other neoconservatives that Snowden and Assange should be imprisoned or executed as traitors?
Nope. But Assange isnt a hero. He is now doing russia's dirtywork for them. (Russia isnt that nice you know and do shady {!#%@} themselves in heaps) Snowden I respect more as a whistle blower type.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:26 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:21 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:26 pm
So you agree with Trump, Bolton, Matthew Ellard, and other neoconservatives that Snowden and Assange should be imprisoned or executed as traitors?
Nope. But Assange isnt a hero. He is now doing russia's dirtywork for them. (Russia isnt that nice you know and do shady {!#%@} themselves in heaps) Snowden I respect more as a whistle blower type.

Peace
Dan
I haven't had THAT much wine......but still, its breakfast? Once a year phenomenon. too much sleep the night before.

If you disagree that Assange should be put in jail, ……………………..how is he THEN not a hero?

THE TRUTH. It "benefits" the Russians by some ways of thinking for the time being so you say its DIRTYWORK?

YOU----show no respect for the truth or what it means. Just a shill.....looking for a honeypot. THE TRUTH: is often uncomfortable.

...............................................deal with it.
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:43 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:26 pm
OutOfBreath wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:21 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:26 pm
So you agree with Trump, Bolton, Matthew Ellard, and other neoconservatives that Snowden and Assange should be imprisoned or executed as traitors?
Nope. But Assange isnt a hero. He is now doing russia's dirtywork for them. (Russia isnt that nice you know and do shady {!#%@} themselves in heaps) Snowden I respect more as a whistle blower type.

Peace
Dan


...If you disagree that Assange should be put in jail, ……………………..how is he THEN not a hero?...
I think execution as an option was also in the mix...
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:25 am

Tom Palven wrote: So you agree with Trump, Bolton, Matthew Ellard, and other neoconservatives that Snowden and Assange should be imprisoned or executed as traitors?
1) Neoconservatives are from USA history. Australia is not part of the USA. Australia is socialist. You have been told this many time s. You forgot again :lol: :lol:

2) No one has called for Assange to be executed. Assange should stand trial if indicted. You have been told this many times. You forgot again. :lol: :lol:

3) Snowden sold 1.5 million UK, Australian and USA secret document to Russia and defected to Russia. Russia then used Wikileaks to release the documents it chose to release. You forgot again.

Sooooo....Snowden, a government employee went against his own government controls. Isn't that exactly your definition of a "Deep State" operative? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:32 am

OutOfBreath wrote: Nope. But Assange isnt a hero. He is now doing russia's dirtywork for them.
Assange met with Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign manager, three times before Trump was elected. This was probably to coordinate Russia's timing of releasing anti-Clinton documents on Wikileaks.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... an-embassy

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:22 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:26 pm
If you disagree that Assange should be put in jail, ……………………..how is he THEN not a hero?
There are levels between knighthood and execution, bobbo. So, no I dont think assange(or anyone really) should be executed. Whether he should be jailed is another question. The us will want to for distributing classified material. My opinion is undecided. Assange is a very mixed bag which seems to heading more into a disagreeable direction as time passes.

And if you cant fathom how telling selective truths can be a problem, well i dunno man. It will be hard to follow and understand politics if you cant see that. Targeted publications and omissions of facts can distort much better than direct lies.

Peace
Dan
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:23 pm

Assange impresses me with every extended interview I see of him. I intentionally try not to watch short pieces as they are most often hit pieces or set ups of different varieties. if not a hero.....he certainly chose to take on a heroic battle: the forces of Status Quo, Secrecy, War and what not. A Warrior for Free Speech.

You come down hard on selective truth. I assume we have the same understanding of it? I'll say again: the entire truth can never be got out all at once every time an issue is raised. GOD I WISH: everyone issued selective truths. Then, all we would have to do is collect them all and add them up? So much better than what non-selective truth tellers give us. You see that don't you?/// Although rereading, I see you do emphasize this point in the alternative: "Targeted publications and omissions of facts can distort much better than direct lies." I suppose that is true.....but in general? I really doubt it, but how to resolve any rhetoric that claims a lie is better than the truth?
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:16 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:23 pm
Assange impresses me with every extended interview I see of him. I intentionally try not to watch short pieces as they are most often hit pieces or set ups of different varieties. if not a hero.....he certainly chose to take on a heroic battle: the forces of Status Quo, Secrecy, War and what not. A Warrior for Free Speech.
I agree with you, as do most liberals and classical liberals worldwide.

There is no case against Assange:
https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2018/1 ... -evidence/

Guardian fake news:
http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archive ... nge-story/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:23 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:22 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:26 pm
If you disagree that Assange should be put in jail, ……………………..how is he THEN not a hero?
...And if you cant fathom how telling selective truths can be a problem, well i dunno man. It will be hard to follow and understand politics if you cant see that. Targeted publications and omissions of facts can distort much better than direct lies.

Peace
Dan

Telling the truth, even if it is selective truth, is not the equivalent of spreading lies and disinformation.

That is a False Equivalence Fallacy:
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... quivalence

Peace
Tom
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:39 am

Tom Palven wrote: Telling the truth, even if it is selective truth, is not the equivalent of spreading lies and disinformation.
Soooooooo,,,,,you support Assange and Trump's campaign manager, Manafort, coordinating with Russia, to release Clinton emails, stolen by the Russian GRU (signals) , at exactly the right time, to get Trump in as president?

Wow, You really hate democracy and are a big Donald Trump fan, aren't you? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Tom Palven is an idiot 3

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:16 am

Tom Palven wrote:I agree with you, as do most liberals and classical liberals worldwide. There is no case against Assange:
Why are you so retarded? Assange skipped bail and has an outstanding arrest warrant. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Julian Assange again loses bid to have UK arrest warrant withdrawn
"Judge Emma Arbuthnot rejected arguments by Mr Assange's lawyers that it is no longer in the public interest to arrest him for jumping bail in 2012".................................Judge Arbuthnot did not mince words "He appears to consider himself above the normal rules of law and wants justice only if it goes in his favour," the judge said,
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/ ... wn/9444540

I assume you also support the Florida pipe bomber who sent bombs to James Clapper, John Brennan and CNN! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:02 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:39 am
Tom Palven wrote: Telling the truth, even if it is selective truth, is not the equivalent of spreading lies and disinformation.
Soooooooo,,,,,you support Assange and Trump's campaign manager, Manafort, coordinating with Russia, to release Clinton emails, stolen by the Russian GRU (signals) , at exactly the right time, to get Trump in as president?

Wow, You really hate democracy and are a big Donald Trump fan, aren't you? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Matthew: you make a gross error here. You want to punish the publication OF THE TRUTH, rather than identify IT WAS/IS HILLARY that must bear any blame for her illegally dumped/hidden emails from her illegal file server being revealed. It is a CLASSIC "kill the messenger" kind of EVIL.

THE RMEMEDY FOR SPEECH YOU DON'T LIKE IS...……………...MORE SPEECH. Not imprisonment for those who spoke it.


Really.........rethink the DIRECT implications of your position.
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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:58 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: THE RMEMEDY FOR SPEECH YOU DON'T LIKE IS...……………...MORE SPEECH. Not imprisonment for those who spoke it.
Julian Assange didn't make any of the speeches. Hillary Clinton did on her private email. The Russian GRU stole it. Julian Assange coordinated the timing of release of the stolen emails with the Russian GRU on behalf of Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign manager.. This was after Julian Assange had already skipped bail.

You didn't get one fact right. :lol:

What makes me laugh even more is that people claim Julian Assange has no criminal charges against him, while he is hiding from his criminal charges in the Ecuadorian Embassy. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:28 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:58 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: THE RMEMEDY FOR SPEECH YOU DON'T LIKE IS...……………...MORE SPEECH. Not imprisonment for those who spoke it.
Julian Assange didn't make any of the speeches.
I know you aren't this retarded, but I did think you weren't so lazy. As a lawyer, even in Australia, I assume you know Free Speech covers more than speeches? Lame.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:58 am
Hillary Clinton did on her private email.
I can't make any sense of that. Under a heightened scrutiny of being relevant, if this matters, please restate.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:58 am
The Russian GRU stole it. Julian Assange coordinated the timing of release of the stolen emails with the Russian GRU on behalf of Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign manager.. This was after Julian Assange had already skipped bail.
More lame analysis posing that post hoc coincidences prove anything other than Assange IS IN THE BUSINESS of publishing secrets and he did this all the time. Was the release of Mannings Tape of the MURDER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE coordnated on behalf of the opening of a new Gay Club in Sidney?

But more to the point: yeah: so what? Tacitly you admit what was published WAS ALL TRUE. You just hate free speech for some unknown reason and want to punish the Fourth Estate like any good autocrat does. Why is that?

I am glad Assange published all the TRUTH that he did and urge all to argue that changes in the law should be made to make such releases easier for all whistleblowers to do ratther than face the idiotic charges that are trumped up against them. One day.....you might agree.
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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:15 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Not imprisonment for those who spoke it.
Matthew Ellard wrote:Julian Assange didn't make any of the speeches.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I know you aren't this retarded,
You wrote it you moron. I didn't. Julian Assange didn't write or speak anything. He is the mere propaganda distribution tool for the SVR under the e US Espionage Act (1917)18 U.S. Code § 793 (e) - "Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information" .

(e) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it;

Matthew Ellard wrote: The Russian GRU stole it. Julian Assange coordinated the timing of release of the stolen emails with the Russian GRU on behalf of Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign manager.. This was after Julian Assange had already skipped bail.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: More lame analysis posing that post hoc coincidences....
In your own words explain why Manafort met with Assange before the Wikileaks dump. ......... you can't can you?

Tell me who told Roger Stone before the Wikileaks dump? ( You really don't know anything about this story, do you?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


(Stop using my blue font)

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:58 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I am glad Assange published all the TRUTH
WikiLeaks' Assange: "Russia didn't give us emails"

Assange is lying through his teeth. The Russian GRU (Signals) gave Wikileaks the email. That's why the USA has already indicted the members of the GRU (Signals) who hacked the emails.

The question is how deep was his knowledge of what he was doing.

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:38 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:15 am
Julian Assange didn't write or speak anything.
What is WikiLeaks then? This is so dumb I almost ignored it....but it seems to fuel your outrage, so its stark manipulation should be noted.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:15 am
Julian Assange didn't write or speak anything. He is the mere propaganda distribution tool for the SVR under the e US Espionage Act (1917)18 U.S. Code § 793 (e) - "Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information" .
Yes, that is the Gubments position, but the opposition rightfully calls it Protected Free Speech not different in any substantive way from The Pentagon Papers or any other public report of crimes being committed by the USA Gubment. Matthew: do you think those reporters should have been murdered by that Helicopter crew reported on by Manning and leaked by Assange. If so, do you allow that other people may disagree? You know Democracy: a contest of ideas from a FULLY INFORMED public. The alternative is fascistic totalitarianism. You aren't for fascistic totalitarianism are you? If not, you should stop posting as if you are.


Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:15 am
The Russian GRU stole it. Julian Assange coordinated the timing of release of the stolen emails with the Russian GRU on behalf of Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign manager.. This was after Julian Assange had already skipped bail.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: More lame analysis posing that post hoc coincidences....
In your own words explain why Manafort met with Assange before the Wikileaks dump. ......... you can't can you? [/quote]

Even if True, and if you are talking about the Three meeting in the Eucador Embassy, that has already been debunked as not evidenced. But it doesn't matter because meeting with someone does not prove coordination and as long as its only THE TRUTH that is being reported/leaked=========>I DON'T CARE, NOBODY SHOULD CARE, AND YOU SHOULDN'T EITHER, how the truth gets out. AGAIN: all you are demonstrating is an ANTIPATHY to the Truth favoring instead who it helps or hurts. That is EVIL. Don't be evil.

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:15 am
Tell me who told Roger Stone before the Wikileaks dump? ( You really don't know anything about this story, do you?
I don't know....how does it matter except that Roger Stone is guilty of crimes that "everyone" agrees should not be committed, ie: no claim of Free Speech protects his criminal activity. What smoke are you trying to spread? Directly, Stone has many connections and co-conspirators. I will play your game and suppose what is obvious: the most direct source for Stone would be Assange himself?...….but your set up is that it was Manafort. Its all irrelevant to the issues. Remember the heightened scrutiny you are under: try to be relevant.

The bottom line that you are demonstrating a desire to KILL THE MESSENGER rather than let THE TRUTH inform our democracy. Denying the truth has a high burden. Playing Political Trivia is a shallow dodge. you should do better.
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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:42 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:58 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I am glad Assange published all the TRUTH
WikiLeaks' Assange: "Russia didn't give us emails"

Assange is lying through his teeth. The Russian GRU (Signals) gave Wikileaks the email. That's why the USA has already indicted the members of the GRU (Signals) who hacked the emails.

The question is how deep was his knowledge of what he was doing.
I can readily accept that GRU gave Wikileaks the email. Equally that it was transmitted though some other third party independently or as agent knowing or unknowing to the GRU. ……………………………...IT DOESN'T MATTER...……………. Why aren't you more oriented to the fact that Hillary tried to hide these emails?...……….and really, my memory is that "nothing came" from the Hillary emails. Everyone already knew she stole her nomination from Bernie. Please state why this all should not be know by the American public when considering Hillary as a future president?

How deep was Assange's knowledge? //// I don't know...….and I suppose it does have a general interest just as does Assange's sexcapeds in Sweden that got his first arrest warrant...……….but really, its all just prurient interest having no substantive impact on the TRUTH OF WHAT WAS REVEALED.

Your are either for the truth, or ................................ not.
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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:18 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: What is WikiLeaks then?
A distribution service of propaganda controlled by the Russian SVR that pulls some documents and pushes other documents for Russia's gain. The USA radio version is called Radio Free Europe and has been broadcast into Eastern Europe, by the CIA, since the end of WWII. You really need to read more about propaganda to see how "standard" Wikileaks, as a propaganda tool, is
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: This is so dumb I almost ignored it....but it seems to fuel your outrage, so its stark manipulation should be noted.
No Bobbo. You simply don't understand propaganda and how the Russians use Wikileaks like the USA uses Radio Free Europe.

In Australia, Julian Assange is called "Lord Haw Haw"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Haw-Haw
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Yes, that is the Gubments position, but the opposition rightfully calls it Protected Free Speech
No they don't . The USA Espionage Act (1917) specifically says it is not free speech. Try reading the law before claiming what it is. :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The bottom line that you are demonstrating a desire to KILL THE MESSENGER rather than let THE TRUTH inform our democracy.
Nope. I never said that. I said Julian Assange should stand trial. It is the US courts who make the decision. Julian Assange's defense team can make their arguments based on the facts.

I laugh at you and Tom Palven. You pretend to support "law and order" but refuse to let due process with Julian Assange to take place. You wan't to make exceptions without due process. So does Donald Trump. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:28 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I can readily accept that GRU gave Wikileaks the email.
Donald Trump asked Russia to release more of the Clinton emails during his 2016 election campaign, at a public rally Did you forget? Trump knew back then.

George Papadopoulos told the Australian former minister in charge of the Australian Secret Intelligence Service, that the the Russians had the Clinton emails and would release then on Wikileaks, before in mid 2016.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Why aren't you more oriented to the fact that Hillary tried to hide these emails?...
Because the Russians controlled the USA elections and the Russians put Hillary Clinton, a USA citizen, at a disadvantage. Hillary Clinton deleting her emails was another court case.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:……….and really, my memory is that "nothing came" from the Hillary emails.
....and therefore you don't want to prosecute the Russians and Wikileaks? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:39 am

Gee Whiz Matthew...……..you came back all reasonable. I had a half crafted sarcastic response that doesn't fit at all. Ha, ha...….I will admit you are progressing. So...….looks like a slog, but here goes:

.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:18 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: What is WikiLeaks then?
A distribution service of propaganda controlled …...

Propaganda: Information that is spread for the purpose of promoting some cause///aka: IDEAS...which in a free country is protected by the Bill of Rights in the USA and by lesser laws elsewhere in the Free World. FASCIST TOTALITARIANS everywhere throughout History HATE FREE SPEECH, and punish those who engage in competing IDEAS. Emphasizing that WikiLeaks is a SPEECH YOU DON'T LIKE...…..only confirms it is speech. I would like it protected, you want to punish it. A difference of opinion/values. (Score = Matthew Minus One)

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:18 am
In Australia, Julian Assange is called "Lord Haw Haw"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Haw-Haw
Ha, ha.....so lame....I won't even contest by doing my own Cherry Picking. aka: Assange has his supporters who call him a Hero, and his detractors who call him all kinds of names. ………..Ho Hum...….. (Score = Matthew Minus One)
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:18 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Yes, that is the Gubments position, but the opposition rightfully calls it Protected Free Speech
No they don't . The USA Espionage Act (1917) specifically says it is not free speech. Try reading the law before claiming what it is.
Gee Matt, THIS is "really" stoopid. Are you this caught up in your own propaganda, or mischieviously looking stoopid for the humor of it, or actually so warped you can't/don't see/think straight? I agreed "THAT IS THE GUBMENTS POSITION......but the opposition calls it Free Speech. You counter No They Don't with what the Gubment says? WE ARE DISAGREEING WITH ONE ANOTHER: it is not helpful to totally corrupt the clear language and meaning that is set forth before us all. You really must do better. (Score = Matthew Minus Two)
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:18 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Yes, that is the Gubments position, but the opposition rightfully calls it Protected Free Speech
The USA Espionage Act (1917) specifically says it is not free speech.
YES....THAT is what is contested. You see Matt: when people disagree, they take different, often opposing positions. You post as if having no understanding of that. Silly...….and ineffectual. A BAD example of defective propaganda. (Score = Matthew Minus Two)
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:18 am
Try reading the law before claiming what it is.
You often put words into your oppositions mouth. I never spoke to what the law said....I spoke to what the Free Speech/Assange position in opposition was. Try to pay attention.....and not totally mischaracterize what is clearly before us all. (Score = Matthew Minus One)
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:18 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The bottom line that you are demonstrating a desire to KILL THE MESSENGER rather than let THE TRUTH inform our democracy.
Nope. I never said that.
I never said you did. Again: silly mischaracterization. (Score = Matthew Minus One)
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:18 am
I said Julian Assange should stand trial. It is the US courts who make the decision. Julian Assange's defense team can make their arguments based on the facts.
In a vacuum, as a general rule, I agree. When you have the gubment attorneys ASSIGNED FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROSECUTING THE CASE, the fact finding independence of the prosecution is thrown somewhat into doubt? (Score = a Push)
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:18 am
Julian Assange's defense team can make their arguments based on the facts.
Thats quite naïve Matt. First thing the courts do is prohibit the Public Necessity or Publics Right to Know or First Amendment defense. The Gubment argues and the courts too often agree the TRIAL is based NOT on general and common law precedent but ONLY on whether or not the terms of some National Security Provision are violated. ie: convicted before the defendant walks into court....…...and by the by...…..when you say Court System...….I assume you mean a civil court and not a military one? Its kinda why Assange does not want to submit himself to the American Judicial System...…..and why USA won't allow prosecution by anyone else. (Score = Matthew Minus One)
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:18 am
I laugh at you and Tom Palven. You pretend to support "law and order" but refuse to let due process with Julian Assange to take place. You wan't to make exceptions without due process. So does Donald Trump. :lol: :lol:
Again witht he Straw Man Argument. When I have "refused to let due process" apply? The concept of me refusing anything doesn't even apply.....silly hooman. MY POSITION IS: I admire the courage of Assange to post the Truth regardless of how he came into possession of it. AND AS ALWAYS: I RECOGNIZE THERE ARE PROS AND CONS to his doing so, and to prosecuting him for doing so and so forth. So much more flexible and encompassing than the knee jerk position you have taken for yourself. (Score = Matthew Minus One)

I am against USA forces torturing prisoners in AguGrab (sp) or in machine gunning to death a crowd of people because they have a telephoto lens that looks like a grenade launcher.......and again shooting the nearby volunteers who try to take the injured to the local hospitals. I DON'T WANT MY COUNTRY DOING THIS. I WANT TO VOTE THOSE WHO DO OUT OF OFFICE. I cannot perform my duties as a voter if I am denied the information to begin with. (Score = bobbo Plus One...Two...Three?)

Freedom vs Fascism. I am on the side of freedom, accepting the harms that flow from that position, rejecting the harms that flow from the other.
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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:50 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:28 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I can readily accept that GRU gave Wikileaks the email.
Donald Trump asked Russia to release more of the Clinton emails during his 2016 election campaign, at a public rally Did you forget? Trump knew back then.

George Papadopoulos told the Australian former minister in charge of the Australian Secret Intelligence Service, that the the Russians had the Clinton emails and would release then on Wikileaks, before in mid 2016.
So what? YOUR POINT was that GRU gave WikiLeaks the emails. Trump and Papadope are irrelevant to the irrelevant point you wanted to make.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:28 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Why aren't you more oriented to the fact that Hillary tried to hide these emails?...
Because the Russians controlled the USA elections and the Russians put Hillary Clinton, a USA citizen, at a disadvantage. Hillary Clinton deleting her emails was another court case.
"control" is comically overstated. I agree this is what happened...…….and its a good lesson to all the political {!#%@} like Hillary that when they violate the law they are subject to later revelations of such transgressions even when they have the USA Justice Department in their pocket. In many, many ways.....I think Russia did USA a good turn by suck activities. One group of corrupt politicians (ie Putin) keeping another group of corrupt politicians in line (ie Clintons). karmic.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:28 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:……….and really, my memory is that "nothing came" from the Hillary emails.
....and therefore you don't want to prosecute the Russians and Wikileaks? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Of course...….all law violators should be prosecuted. Hillary hiding emails has no First amendment defense. Russian hacking emails has no first amendment defense (traditionally). Wikileaks publishing the hacked emails: totally protected First Amendment activities as ruled in the Pentagon Papers Case. Facist Totalitarians don't like this outcome and will continue to prosecute violators as the public allows. FREEDOM: is under constant attack. Sad really...……...if you love/support FREEDOM.
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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:26 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Yes, that is the Gubments position, but the opposition rightfully calls it Protected Free Speech
Matthew Ellard wrote: The USA Espionage Act (1917) specifically says it is not free speech.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: YES....THAT is what is contested. You see Matt: when people disagree, they take different, often opposing positions.
It is not contested. It is black letter law. Have you read the act?

You seem to be watching Fox News. Fox compared wikileaks to the Panama Papers, as you did. For the Espionage Act (1917) to be effective at law, the distribution must be for the benefit of a foreign government. The Panama Papers fails that test. Secondly, it must be detrimental to the USA's military or military capability. The Panama Papers fails that test. However the President is commander of the military. Wikileaks distributing stolen secret emails for the benefit of Russia to influence who would be president ( head of the military)

The espionage act allows for capital punishment and that's what is needed to get Assange to talk openly.

Give up Bobbo. If you can't be bothered reading the law, you really can't tell me anything new.

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:02 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:26 am
It is not contested. It is black letter law. Have you read the act? [/color]
I'll take the Clinton Defense: What is "It?" Of course it is contested. EVERYTHING IS CONTESTED. Its the warp and weave of the Universe...……...whatever It is.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:26 am
Have you read the act? [/color]
No. I assume its like all other acts? It makes some behavior illegal? But I have read the Constitution/Bill of Rights that OVERRULES any act. Thats why a claim of Free Speech always CONTESTS any other law or statute. aka: it is imbecilically ignorant to argue the Statute says Assange's actions were not free speech. THAT is for the Bill of Rights to determine. You have your rank order priorities===BACKWARDS.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:26 am
You seem to be watching Fox News. Fox compared wikileaks to the Panama Papers, as you did.
What reading deficiency do you suffer from? I SAID PENTAGON PAPERS. Panama Papers about offshoring untaxed income...…….not even close to the issue. PENTAGON PAPERS is controlling law and RIGHT ON POINT in all respects...…...but the fix is in with stooges like yourself screaming for FASCIST TOTALITARIAN CONTROL OVER ALL OUR LIVES.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:26 am
However the President is commander of the military. Wikileaks distributing stolen secret emails for the benefit of Russia to influence who would be president ( head of the military)
Yes, such leaks do benefit all FASCIST TOTALITARIANS as it weakens the Leader of the Free World...………..but...…..as posted, such leaks also benefit the American VOTER informing them/us as to who should remain in office and who should be removed.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:26 am
The espionage act allows for capital punishment and that's what is needed to get Assange to talk openly.
Wut???? Reality appears that punishing for capital punishment for publishing THE TRUTH that USA doesn't like is an invitation to live in a foreign embassy.........not to talk openly..........which confusingly is what Assange already did which got him in hot water. You really aren't making any sense at all.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:26 am
Give up Bobbo. If you can't be bothered reading the law, you really can't tell me anything new.
How about something OLD: "Sunshine is the best disinfectant." or "The TRUTH is poison to FASCIST TOTALITARIANS."

I note you avoid the consequences of your position like the plague. You support torture of prisoners and the murder of TOTALLY innocent civilians.

Why does a minion like yourself argue against your own interests?
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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:18 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: Have you read the act?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No. I assume its like all other acts? It makes some behavior illegal?
Nope. Some Acts are about appeals, jurisdiction, which courts, and so on. Didn't you know? That's why lawyers actually read the acts. :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:But I have read the Constitution/Bill of Rights that OVERRULES any act.
Unless there is a Supreme court ruling or obiter that says otherwise. You don't seem to know what "judge made" (common law) is. and how it defines black letter law.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You have your rank order priorities===BACKWARDS.
You are an idiot who doesn't even know what judge made (common) law is. We have been through this before. :lol: :lol:

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I SAID PENTAGON PAPERS.
Which still fails the Espionage Act (1971) as they weren't released for the benefit of a foreign government.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Why does a minion like yourself argue against your own interests?
You are an idiot Bobbo. You should volunteer to be Assange's defense lawyer against Mueller. Just tell the judge you never bothered to read the actual law. That will speed things up. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:01 am

Are we to take it that you agree with everything you don't contest?
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