Government support is essential to life and liberty

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Tom Palven
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:38 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:True, true, but according to Wiki, the US is the world's largest arms exporter and India is the largest importer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The main export of India's neighbor, Pakistan, which seems to be #1 on Hillary's Countries to Invade Next list, is textiles.
http://threehegemons.tripod.com/threehe ... /id53.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:23 pm

bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote: as for Nabarun -- I think the politeness is a ruse. If you challenge him he insults you.
I really don't dislike your smile under the mask. It's only you who can say which is real, the smile or the mask. If I have insulted you personally at any of my post, I beg an unconditional apology. Most of the Americans are also a lovable lot but your government is, in my view, a devil that has been continually disturbing the peace of the world people for several decades. It is not possible to furnish evidence of a crime every time, unless a camera of the Wikileaks is always present there.
I agree with you enitrely that the US is an Evil Empire with a huge souless military-industrial killing machine that wants to keep its profits flowing. However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, this part of the US is different than the international "robber barons," including American corporations, who want to invest their money in India (or in my state of Florida, for that matter). IMHO the "robber barons" create jobs and products and are actually the "good guys," as opposed to those in the the quasi-governmental military-industrial-political complex.
I have hardly anything against Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. But the problem is that most of the drainage of wealth from our country occurs in buying useless killing machines which we are supposed to use against Pakistan or China. The bogeyman of a war and religious fundamentalism are the two pseudo-threats that our politicians always hang on our head so that they can buy more of these machines, which earn them a good sum in the form of bribe. Had our wealth been properly utilised, we'd be self sufficient in food by this time and none of my countrymen would go to bed in empty stomach. But that would deprive our leaders from the bribe they get while importing food-grains and fertilisers. Hence, most of our people still don't have food, clothes, shelter, medicines and education even after 64 years of our so called independence. Far from any improvement of the condition as Lance Kennedy has optimistically predicted, the gap between the rich and the poor is widening day by day which is compelling more and more poor people to organise in the form of armed political bodies against this man-eating system.

1.2 billion cell phones vs a few hundred million guns sold.....
A gun costs hundred or even thousand times than a cell. How much does a fighter jet cost?

However, whatever I may say, are all pointless ravings in your eyes. You are attacking me several times with this allegation. Still I don't mind. You seem to be a true patriot. But patriotism should not be wasted on a government sponsored by the Mafia and other merchants of death whom you probably know better than me.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:43 pm

Handgun: ~$500
Smartphone: ~$200
Fighter Jet: ~$100,000,000
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Austin Harper wrote:Handgun: ~$500
Smartphone: ~$200
Fighter Jet: ~$100,000,000
This might be some ample proof in the eyes of Mr. Bigtim.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:14 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:Handgun: ~$500
Smartphone: ~$200
Fighter Jet: ~$100,000,000
This might be some ample proof in the eyes of Mr. Bigtim.
The awesome part of thi data, is that even though the phones are cheaper, they generate more revenue than small arms....
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:42 am

bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:Handgun: ~$500
Smartphone: ~$200
Fighter Jet: ~$100,000,000
This might be some ample proof in the eyes of Mr. Bigtim.
The awesome part of thi data, is that even though the phones are cheaper, they generate more revenue than small arms....
Then, please advise your government to stop dealing in arms and concentrate more on cellphones. It may, at least, help improve our relationship with our neighbours. The people of many other countries would bless you, whose puppet governments are acting as gladiators to entertain Emperor Uncle Sam that is watching them fight while collecting bucks by providing them with arms and ammunition.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:08 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:If I am a Communist for speaking about the hard facts experienced in daily life, then I am a Communist
Fair enough.

Out of respect I looked up the history of your home city Dhanbad and Jharkhand your home state. Although Jharkhand is only 11 years old, it has a larger population then my entire country, Australia. You were one of the first Indian areas to fight British colonialism, surprisingly at roughly the same time the Americans did. (1765)


the people of the region are politically mobilized and self-conscious......Jharkhand has a concentration of some of the country’s highly industrialized cities such as Jamshedpur, Ranchi, Bokaro Steel City and Dhanbad........Jharkhand has made primary education so accessible that 95% of children of ages 6–11 are enrolled in school, as opposed to 56% in 1993–94..........The Marxist Coordination Committee is a political party in Jharkhand, India. MCC is based in the coal mining region of Dhanbad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not stupid. I can see why Marxist economic evolutionary theory is respected in Jharkhand. Though not a communist myself, I understand there are many different ways to achieve social equity. The USA has simply gone a different route. There is no singular right way.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:36 am

I disagree... there are wrong ways and right ways..

also, the US is not the largest small arms seller... China is. How many AK's do you see? Odds are they're chinese, other odds are soviet made.

The US and their arms selling do not create strive and hardship. To claim such is asinine. One must recognize the sickness in their own country and stop blaming others.

One of my mantras is "own your deeds". While I accept and work stop my country from doing the {!#%@} I find distasteful I also put blame on other countries for their faults.

I suggest you look to home to fix your problems and stop blaming the US. The problems of India have ZERO to do with any nonsense the US does. Accept that and move on.

Have India own their deeds.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:23 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:If I am a Communist for speaking about the hard facts experienced in daily life, then I am a Communist
Fair enough.

Out of respect I looked up the history of your home city Dhanbad and Jharkhand your home state. Although Jharkhand is only 11 years old, it has a larger population then my entire country, Australia. You were one of the first Indian areas to fight British colonialism, surprisingly at roughly the same time the Americans did. (1765)


the people of the region are politically mobilized and self-conscious......Jharkhand has a concentration of some of the country’s highly industrialized cities such as Jamshedpur, Ranchi, Bokaro Steel City and Dhanbad........Jharkhand has made primary education so accessible that 95% of children of ages 6–11 are enrolled in school, as opposed to 56% in 1993–94..........The Marxist Coordination Committee is a political party in Jharkhand, India. MCC is based in the coal mining region of Dhanbad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not stupid. I can see why Marxist economic evolutionary theory is respected in Jharkhand. Though not a communist myself, I understand there are many different ways to achieve social equity. The USA has simply gone a different route. There is no singular right way.
See, Matthew, I Did not oppose your view, it's an American who did it. Although most of the Americans are fairly wise, there are some who think that only what they do is right, others are wrong. What do we call such people? Well, I do not like to utter the word. Someone may take exception to it.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:57 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:If I am a Communist for speaking about the hard facts experienced in daily life, then I am a Communist
Fair enough.

Out of respect I looked up the history of your home city Dhanbad and Jharkhand your home state. Although Jharkhand is only 11 years old, it has a larger population then my entire country, Australia. You were one of the first Indian areas to fight British colonialism, surprisingly at roughly the same time the Americans did. (1765)


the people of the region are politically mobilized and self-conscious......Jharkhand has a concentration of some of the country’s highly industrialized cities such as Jamshedpur, Ranchi, Bokaro Steel City and Dhanbad........Jharkhand has made primary education so accessible that 95% of children of ages 6–11 are enrolled in school, as opposed to 56% in 1993–94..........The Marxist Coordination Committee is a political party in Jharkhand, India. MCC is based in the coal mining region of Dhanbad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not stupid. I can see why Marxist economic evolutionary theory is respected in Jharkhand. Though not a communist myself, I understand there are many different ways to achieve social equity. The USA has simply gone a different route. There is no singular right way.
See, Matthew, I Did not oppose your view, it's an American who did it. Although most of the Americans are fairly wise, there are some who think that only what they do is right, others are wrong. What do we call such people? Well, I do not like to utter the word. Someone may take exception to it.
Hypocritical? :mrgreen: From Dictionary.com:

hyp·o·crit·i·cal  /ˌhɪpəˈkrɪtɪkəl/ Show Spelled[hip-uh-krit-i-kuhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.of the natureof hypocrisy, or pretense of having virtues, beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually possess: The parent who has a “do what I say and not what I do” attitude can appear hypocritical to a child.
2.possessing the characteristics of hypocrisy: Isn't a politician hypocritical for talking about human dignity while voting against reasonable social programs?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:41 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:Handgun: ~$500
Smartphone: ~$200
Fighter Jet: ~$100,000,000
This might be some ample proof in the eyes of Mr. Bigtim.
The awesome part of thi data, is that even though the phones are cheaper, they generate more revenue than small arms....
Then, please advise your government to stop dealing in arms and concentrate more on cellphones. It may, at least, help improve our relationship with our neighbours. The people of many other countries would bless you, whose puppet governments are acting as gladiators to entertain Emperor Uncle Sam that is watching them fight while collecting bucks by providing them with arms and ammunition.
Please ask your government to do the same. It takes two to tango when entering a deal.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:15 pm

Nessie wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:Handgun: ~$500
Smartphone: ~$200
Fighter Jet: ~$100,000,000
This might be some ample proof in the eyes of Mr. Bigtim.
The awesome part of thi data, is that even though the phones are cheaper, they generate more revenue than small arms....
Then, please advise your government to stop dealing in arms and concentrate more on cellphones. It may, at least, help improve our relationship with our neighbours. The people of many other countries would bless you, whose puppet governments are acting as gladiators to entertain Emperor Uncle Sam that is watching them fight while collecting bucks by providing them with arms and ammunition.
Please ask your government to do the same. It takes two to tango when entering a deal.
Our government is de facto a puppet of the foreign capitalists. A corrupt, non-patriotic lot. It needs a total social overhauling to change the nature of our state. The writing is, of course, on the wall. The system is going to change, I don't know whether it would occur in my lifetime.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:43 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: I'm not stupid. I can see why Marxist economic evolutionary theory is respected in Jharkhand. Though not a communist myself, I understand there are many different ways to achieve social equity. The USA has simply gone a different route. There is no singular right way. [/color]
Matthew, I would be more than happy had Jharkhand been as progressive as you have depicted. Far from being a citadel of Marxism, it is run by extremely corrupt parties clad in Nationalist colours. Communist revolutionaries are here ruthlessly killed and tortured in medieval barbarism, even the innocent villagers are not spared by the government forces. Still, it is becoming more and more difficult for the government to contain the anger of the people that are deprived of food, clothes, shelter, medicines and education. Matthew, can you imagine a place where two women share a single piece of cloth? When one of them goes out, the other stays inside in dark, without anything on. And our former Chief Minister is now behind the bars for amassing a wealth of Rs. 40000000000.

Do you think this gap is going to be filled by means of a peaceful evolution? Horsefeathers.

Rather, a peaceful transformation to socialism may well take place in USA, where the society is already at an advanced stage of capitalism. Hence, I agree with you that the process of transformation to a cooperative society will be different in different places.
Last edited by Nabarun Ghoshal on Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:45 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Our government is de facto a puppet of the foreign capitalists.
BS
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:51 pm

bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Our government is de facto a puppet of the foreign capitalists.
BS
Thank you for knowing our government better than me.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:22 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Our government is de facto a puppet of the foreign capitalists.
BS
Thank you for knowing our government better than me.
apparently I do.

See, is that passive aggressive style of comments that I was referring to in an earlier post.

BTW -- I shared your comment with some of my Indian colleques and they laughed. They seem to think you need help.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:15 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Our government is de facto a puppet of the foreign capitalists. A corrupt, non-patriotic lot. It needs a total social overhauling to change the nature of our state. The writing is, of course, on the wall. The system is going to change, I don't know whether it would occur in my lifetime.
I can see some truth in that since it appears from corruption indexes the India government does not do well. So they will be prone to taking corporate bungs.

Systems change all the time and often not for the best. I take it you have read George Orwell's 'Animal Farm'?
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:38 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: Matthew, I would be more than happy had Jharkhand been as progressive as you have depicted. Far from being a citadel of Marxism, it is run by extremely corrupt parties clad in Nationalist colours. Communist revolutionaries are here ruthlessly killed and tortured in medieval barbarism, even the innocent villagers are not spared by the government forces.
Well I did spend half a year in Kerala with my parents in the 70's, so I'm not naive as to Indian communist practices and how they interact with general Indian politics. I also spent half a year in Malaysia during a communist insurgent crisis there and when all the Chinese were being massacred. Each scenario was totally different. Each interpretation of communism was different.
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: Matthew, can you imagine a place where two women share a single piece of cloth?
Yes. and simultaneously go visit a huge missile works in the same state. That's the nature of humans.
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: Do you think this gap is going to be filled by means of a peaceful evolution? Horsefeathers.
It is my fundamental belief that these transitions should be peaceful. I have never touched a gun and I support capitalism as, in the very long run, it acheives social equity if guided under good moderate social policies. However, I repeat my previous statement that there is no singular "right" way to acheive social equity.
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: Hence, I agree with you that the process of transformation to a cooperative society will be different in different places.
Hear hear. My duty on this planet is not to tell people what to do, but to stop them killing each other in large numbers.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:36 am

Nessie wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Our government is de facto a puppet of the foreign capitalists. A corrupt, non-patriotic lot. It needs a total social overhauling to change the nature of our state. The writing is, of course, on the wall. The system is going to change, I don't know whether it would occur in my lifetime.
I can see some truth in that since it appears from corruption indexes the India government does not do well. So they will be prone to taking corporate bungs.

Systems change all the time and often not for the best. I take it you have read George Orwell's 'Animal Farm'?
It is a popular play here, many children have seen it. Remember, the coercive exploitation of man by man is a several thousand year old custom. One Marx or one Lenin cannot change it overnight. The Paris Commune, The Russian Revolution, the Chinese Revolution in 1949, or the revolutions in East Europe and Cuba yielded only the embryonic forms of a bright world of the future. During these processes, there had been wrongs. The pessimists like George Orwell, who predicted the end of the world by 1984 could see only the negative aspects of these revolutions. The positive aspect is that, it transformed a lot of people's life from medieval type to modern type.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:41 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Hear hear. My duty on this planet is not to tell people what to do, but to stop them killing each other in large numbers.
"The only way to get rid of guns is to hold guns"---Mao Tsetung.

( I know you are not very fond of this person, but I have perhaps read his works more than you did and it led me to be his supporter in spite of a blitz of propaganda against him.)

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:30 am

bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Our government is de facto a puppet of the foreign capitalists.
BS
Thank you for knowing our government better than me.
apparently I do.

See, is that passive aggressive style of comments that I was referring to in an earlier post.

BTW -- I shared your comment with some of my Indian colleques and they laughed. They seem to think you need help.
Better than your active aggressive one as seen your last statement, of course which is not the only one.

The Indians who have left their poor country at its fate and fled to your country for fetching a fortune for their own sake deserve little respect from us.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:47 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Our government is de facto a puppet of the foreign capitalists.
BS
Thank you for knowing our government better than me.
apparently I do.

See, is that passive aggressive style of comments that I was referring to in an earlier post.

BTW -- I shared your comment with some of my Indian colleques and they laughed. They seem to think you need help.
Better than your active aggressive one as seen your last statement, of course which is not the only one.

The Indians who have left their poor country at its fate and fled to your country for fetching a fortune for their own sake deserve little respect from us.
Sorry, no, passive aggressive is not better than "active" aggressive. And you should be flattered that I'd chat about this discussion with others -- that I'd want to discuss your point of view further. But, apparently, your'e a bigot too.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:06 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:"The only way to get rid of guns is to hold guns"---Mao Tsetung.

( I know you are not very fond of this person, but I have perhaps read his works more than you did and it led me to be his supporter in spite of a blitz of propaganda against him.)
Dude, Mao was at best an incompetent dreamer (assuming he didn't know what he set off), at worst an active power-hungry monster. The great leap forward and especially the cultural revolution were messes that cost millions of people their lives. Mao did understand power, and used this knowledge to keep himself in charge no matter what.

China was a mess when Deng Xiaopeng took over and injected some sense and practicality, paving the way for today's succesful China. Mao was a grand, disastrous gestures and plans sortof guy.

I do have some socialist credentials to bring into this, and can somewhat sympathize with theoretical communism. However, autocrats should be recognized no matter what label they put on themselves. Mao was an emperor in all but name, and a rather bloody one at that. As was Stalin, so please don't glorify these guys as the embodiment of the principles of communism, because they weren't.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:49 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: "The only way to get rid of guns is to hold guns"---Mao Tsetung.
( I know you are not very fond of this person, but I have perhaps read his works more than you did and it led me to be his supporter in spite of a blitz of propaganda against him.)
As I said I was in Kerala where the CPI(M), soviet influenced communist faction, was more the flavour than the Maoist flavour of the MCC and its sister parties, such as the CPI(Maoist). I am also not thrilled by the CPI(Maoist) support for armed insurgency in its 2004 press release.
The immediate aim and programme of the Maoist party is to carry on and complete the already ongoing and advancing New Democratic Revolution in India as a part of the world proletarian revolution by overthrowing the semi-colonial, semi-feudal system under the neo-colonial form of indirect rule, exploitation and control. This revolution will remain directed against imperialism, feudalism and comprador bureaucratic capitalism. This revolution will be carried out and completed through armed agrarian revolutionary war

Mao was always problem for the Soviets, particularly for his lack of energy in fighting the Japanese and disrupting the goals of the reborn 50's attempts at Comintern's. However that was a long long time ago. I find it hard to see how modern India shares the scenario of 1930's China, considering modern communications. I agree to the shared existing elements of poverty & corruption, but Mao did tell some "fibs" that an armed revolutionary faction could not get away with today.

I also feel it is a moot point as China's MSS is more concentrated on issues of technology than cross border insurgency support as a tactic in the post Sino-Indian war environment. India's GDP will exceed China's GDP and technology is the more relevant national tool than insurgency. ( It certainly hasn't helped Pakistan)

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:55 am

Slightly difficult for you to envisage the situation sitting in an advanced capitalist country where human rights are to some extent established. I try to give one example. The zamindars had been torturing and killing people, raping women, putting huts on fire for centuries sometimes just as for fun. It was considered absolutely normal. Hardly any case was filed against them. Even if such a case was filed as an exception, the police officers would hush it up after taking bribe. Hardly any pressman would report the matter. But as the poor farmers have been retaliating for a decade or two, thousands of armed personnel are being poured into the villages, creating sort of a hell. The newspapers and other media are crying foul and shedding gallons of tear. I personally feel shaky while killing a cockroach, but I cannot but support the poor farmers' stance in this aspect.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:59 am

...and noone abused the poor farmers more than Mao did.

There's nothing wrong sympathising with the downtrodden of the earth. Just saying that Mao is not your man when it comes to adressing violence and poor conditions for the rural poor, as he himself set off arbitrary violence towards any different-thinking people, and really destroyed the farmer base of the country.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:55 pm

[quote="bigtim" But, apparently, your'e a bigot too.[/quote]

Thanks for this compliment too.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:02 pm

OutOfBreath wrote: Mao was an emperor in all but name, and a rather bloody one at that. As was Stalin, so please don't glorify these guys as the embodiment of the principles of communism, because they weren't.
No, let's glorify Hitlers, Trumans, Bushes et.al. And as a Bengali, I should be ever thankful to the great Churchill as well, who killed 5 million innocent Bengalis in 1943 by creating an artificial famine. After all, he seems to have broken the record of Hitler in this aspect.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:05 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote: But, apparently, your'e a bigot too.
Thanks for this compliment too.
your own words "The Indians who have left their poor country at its fate and fled to your country for fetching a fortune for their own sake deserve little respect from us."

You make a sweeping generalization and pass judgement across the board denegrating a large group of people. You also make a huge assumption -- that all my colleques are in the US.

Yep, that makes you a bigot. One that has no interest in data or details -- apparently you just want to put forth your point of view and disregard anything else.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:21 pm

bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote: But, apparently, your'e a bigot too.
Thanks for this compliment too.
your own words "The Indians who have left their poor country at its fate and fled to your country for fetching a fortune for their own sake deserve little respect from us."

You make a sweeping generalization and pass judgement across the board denegrating a large group of people. You also make a huge assumption -- that all my colleques are in the US.

Yep, that makes you a bigot. One that has no interest in data or details -- apparently you just want to put forth your point of view and disregard anything else.
Now you have convinced me that I am a bigot. I am also convinced about the other characteristics you have endowed me. That's why I thank you so often. You are, after all, pointing out my defects so that I may improve my character. Go on, I am all ears.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:26 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote: But, apparently, your'e a bigot too.
Thanks for this compliment too.
your own words "The Indians who have left their poor country at its fate and fled to your country for fetching a fortune for their own sake deserve little respect from us."

You make a sweeping generalization and pass judgement across the board denegrating a large group of people. You also make a huge assumption -- that all my colleques are in the US.

Yep, that makes you a bigot. One that has no interest in data or details -- apparently you just want to put forth your point of view and disregard anything else.
Now you have convinced me that I am a bigot. I am also convinced about the other characteristics you have endowed me with. That's why I thank you so often. You are, after all, pointing out my defects so that I may improve my character. Go on, I am all ears.
I just cannot decide which one is worse, the USA or India? Please keep this going so that I may decide..... ;)
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:30 pm

Nessie wrote:
I just cannot decide which one is worse, the USA or India? Please keep this going so that I may decide..... ;)
The people of both countries are great. It's their rulers that are under the scanner. One is destroying the peace of the world with continual booms of nuclear, napalm, cluster bombs while the other is selling out the country in lieu of bribes of different kinds.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:47 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: Now you have convinced me that I am a bigot. I am also convinced about the other characteristics you have endowed me. That's why I thank you so often. You are, after all, pointing out my defects so that I may improve my character. Go on, I am all ears.
You're hilarious :-)
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: The people of both countries are great. It's their rulers that are under the scanner. One is destroying the peace of the world with continual booms of nuclear, napalm, cluster bombs while the other is selling out the country in lieu of bribes of different kinds.
See, this is what I'm talking about. You are making sweeping statements with no facts to back them up and you seem to not be interested in facts.

What data or evidence have you that the US is "destroying the peace of the world"? None. None at all. How do you support this claim? By referencing things that occurred over 60 and 40 years ago.

I am very willing to discuss specifics. But you seem to have none. You have painted the US as a "Satan" and your hate will not be assuaged. Do I agree with everything the US does? No, of course not. I'm not arguing US is right, what I am arguing for is truth and accuracy.

So, like I have said repeatedly, don't blather or preach, but talk about something specific actions, policies, events, to justify/support your point of view and we can discuss them.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:14 pm

Well I have previously posted evidence of how the USA is destroying the peace of the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... operations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and evidence of Indian corruption

http://transparency.org/policy_research ... 10/results" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, I still cannot decide who to go with, the war mongering USA or the bribe ridden Indians. Decisions, decisions. :D

Was it not better when you were both part of the British Empire? :shock: ;)
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:24 pm

Nessie wrote:Well I have previously posted evidence of how the USA is destroying the peace of the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... operations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and evidence of Indian corruption

http://transparency.org/policy_research ... 10/results" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, I still cannot decide who to go with, the war mongering USA or the bribe ridden Indians. Decisions, decisions. :D

Was it not better when you were both part of the British Empire? :shock: ;)
How happy is Scotland under the British Empire?

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:27 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
No, let's glorify Hitlers, Trumans, Bushes et.al. And as a Bengali, I should be ever thankful to the great Churchill as well, who killed 5 million innocent Bengalis in 1943 by creating an artificial famine. After all, he seems to have broken the record of Hitler in this aspect.
I can't seem to find where I have demanded veneration for any of those you mention. My point was simply that Mao was an autocrat rather personally responsible for the death of millions, both through direct agitation, and through disastrous megalomaniac projects.

Acknowledging Mao as the autocrat he was doesn't require me to demand veneration for other leaders. This is not a team-sport in that you have to venerate one side or the other. Just pointing out that if you want a rolemodel for sharing the wealth, bettering the conditions of the poor etc, he's not your man. He almost single-handedly held back China for a few decades, evidenced by the stagnation of his time and the accelerating catch-up that has happened after his death.

The big leaders with personal cults, don't pick them in general as your rolemodels. Just saying.

Peace
Dan
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:33 pm

Nessie wrote:Well I have previously posted evidence of how the USA is destroying the peace of the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... operations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You're being myopic...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mi ... operations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, let's get sarted, roll up our sleeves, and get to work.

First off -- definitions.

What does it mean to "destroy the peace of the world"? How is that measured and defined?
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:35 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:"The only way to get rid of guns is to hold guns"---Mao Tsetung.

( I know you are not very fond of this person, but I have perhaps read his works more than you did and it led me to be his supporter in spite of a blitz of propaganda against him.)
Dude, Mao was at best an incompetent dreamer (assuming he didn't know what he set off), at worst an active power-hungry monster. The great leap forward and especially the cultural revolution were messes that cost millions of people their lives. Mao did understand power, and used this knowledge to keep himself in charge no matter what.

China was a mess when Deng Xiaopeng took over and injected some sense and practicality, paving the way for today's succesful China. Mao was a grand, disastrous gestures and plans sortof guy.

I do have some socialist credentials to bring into this, and can somewhat sympathize with theoretical communism. However, autocrats should be recognized no matter what label they put on themselves. Mao was an emperor in all but name, and a rather bloody one at that. As was Stalin, so please don't glorify these guys as the embodiment of the principles of communism, because they weren't.

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In spite of the bare fact provided by you which I quoted in bold, the Chinese currency still holds the portrait of Mao instead of your dear Deng. The ungrateful Chinese :roll:

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:01 pm

bigtim wrote:
Nessie wrote:Well I have previously posted evidence of how the USA is destroying the peace of the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... operations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You're being myopic...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mi ... operations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, let's get sarted, roll up our sleeves, and get to work.

First off -- definitions.

What does it mean to "destroy the peace of the world"? How is that measured and defined?
I would define destroy the peace of the world as taking part in war, other military interventions and support for existing wars, coups etc.

I would measure it by the number of wars etc a country has been involved in.

The USA definitely beats India on that one.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:25 pm

Nessie wrote:
bigtim wrote:
Nessie wrote:Well I have previously posted evidence of how the USA is destroying the peace of the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... operations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You're being myopic...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mi ... operations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, let's get sarted, roll up our sleeves, and get to work.

First off -- definitions.

What does it mean to "destroy the peace of the world"? How is that measured and defined?
I would define destroy the peace of the world as taking part in war, other military interventions and support for existing wars, coups etc.

I would measure it by the number of wars etc a country has been involved in.

The USA definitely beats India on that one.
It is not the question of USA or India. It is the question of the people. Do most Americans endorse the war-mongering by its government? Obviously not. Do most Indians want their beloved country be sold out by the greedy leaders of different parties that run the government in turn?

Still life's like that and it's only the people that will give a befitting reply to these power-hungry, greedy leaders. In America, the the process would probably cause less bloodshed but in India, it would be a violent revolution as I can guess.