Government support is essential to life and liberty

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Nabarun Ghoshal
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:50 pm

Governments, from the age of the ancient slave-owners to the feudal lords and monarchs and lastly, to the modern age capitalists, is but a machinery of coercion. It is used by the people in power to suppress the fact that a major portion of human labour is stolen by them to increase their wealth while the labourers toiling in fields and factories are given a meagre price for that labour. In the recent age, the society has seen the inclusion a new section within the labour class i.e. the intellectuals labourers, who are used by the capitalists in the same way as the manual labourers. When the labourers come to know this truth and try to rise against them, they use the state machinery (i.e. the Government) to suppress their efforts with the help of guns and media. This is, precisely, the nature and activity of the Governments of all colours.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:02 pm

Dana69 wrote:
Nessie wrote:What I am trying to show is that government and business overlap, some time to huge extents so that one is barely distinguishable from the other.

So from that I would say governments can create 'real jobs' and 'wealth'.
Government does not engage in manufacturing or production, hallmarks of creating wealth. Also, since government is restricted from simply printing money (which is not wealth anyway), and only borrow, I would say that government can not create wealth on its own. Wealth is a self derived process based on creating something of value. Government can certainly facilitate such, but usually it is at the expense of another, so it would kind of destroy the meaning of wealth. At least in my opinion. Of course, sometimes the nature of these discussions, comes down to semantics about what the definition of wealth is, or is not.
There are a lot of Americans on this forum and it shows with a very American way of doing things is the only way of doing things thought process.

For example many railways, postal systems and energy producers are state run in Europe and they create wealth. Then many a government run academic institution creates wealth with its inventions and discoveries, for example universities can create companies and work in conjunction with existing ones to develope and market such.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Dana69 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:49 pm

Nessie wrote:
Dana69 wrote:
Nessie wrote:What I am trying to show is that government and business overlap, some time to huge extents so that one is barely distinguishable from the other.

So from that I would say governments can create 'real jobs' and 'wealth'.
Government does not engage in manufacturing or production, hallmarks of creating wealth. Also, since government is restricted from simply printing money (which is not wealth anyway), and only borrow, I would say that government can not create wealth on its own. Wealth is a self derived process based on creating something of value. Government can certainly facilitate such, but usually it is at the expense of another, so it would kind of destroy the meaning of wealth. At least in my opinion. Of course, sometimes the nature of these discussions, comes down to semantics about what the definition of wealth is, or is not.
There are a lot of Americans on this forum and it shows with a very American way of doing things is the only way of doing things thought process.

For example many railways, postal systems and energy producers are state run in Europe and they create wealth. Then many a government run academic institution creates wealth with its inventions and discoveries, for example universities can create companies and work in conjunction with existing ones to develope and market such.

Fair enough; can you give me a coherent definition of "wealth" please?

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:55 pm

Dana69 wrote: Hmm..I don't really want to derail your beautiful symmetry of perfect government monetary symbiosis, but where did the bountiful Australian government get $900 to pay each person? Did they borrow it, earn it, or create it out of thin air?
The Reserve Bank of Australia. The Reserve Bank of Australia issues government bonds and settles those bonds using taxation revenue. Next question.
Dana69 wrote: Seems like you believe Australia is prospering and it is all due to Keynesian theory in practice. Do I have the correct?
No. Your point was that Keynesian economics does not work. I expressly stated that Australia uses both Keynesian and Monetary policy. You forgot on purpose and made a weak attempt to set up a strawman argument in addition to dropping off the word "short run" in a document you quoted. Tsk tsk tsk..

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:58 pm

I am using the usual dictionary definition of wealth

1.a. An abundance of valuable material possessions or resources; riches.
b. The state of being rich; affluence.
2. All goods and resources having value in terms of exchange or use.
3. A great amount; a profusion

1. (Economics) a large amount of money and valuable material possessions
2. (Economics) the state of being rich
3. a great profusion a wealth of gifts
4. (Economics) Economics all goods and services with monetary, exchangeable, or productive value.

Take the NHS for example (from the NHS Confederation website)

NHS funding

NHS net expenditure has increased from £40.201 billion in 1999/2000 to a forecast outturn of £102.985bn in 2010/11 The planned expenditure for 2011/12 is £105.9bn.
The money spent per capita on NHS service in England has risen from £1,287 in 2003/04 to £1,979 in 2010/11.
The NHS surplus for the 2009/10 financial year (including FTs) was £1.897bn.
Of the extra NHS funding in 2005/2006: 52 per cent was spent on higher pay costs; 17 per cent on extra drug costs; 7 per cent on capital costs and 13 per cent on more activity and improvements.
Further analysis from the King's Fund for 2006/07 has estimated that 40 per cent of the additional funding was used for pay and a further 32% was consumed by higher prices and costs associated with NICE recommendations, clinical negligence and capital costs.

NHS organisations

In the NHS there are currently:

151 primary care trusts (PCTs) with 51 clusters operating integrated management and board structures
257 GP pathfinder consortia
166 acute trusts (including 94 foundation trusts)
58 mental health trusts (including 41 foundation trusts)
36 community trusts (including 18 aspirant foundation trusts and 18 social enterprises)
11 ambulance trusts (including 2 foundation trusts)
10 strategic health authorities
c.10,500 GP practices in the UK
2312 hospitals in the UK

NHS staff

In 2010 the NHS employed 141,326 doctors, 410,615 qualified nursing staff, and 41,962 managers.
The number of doctors employed by the NHS has increased by an annual average of 3.8 per cent since 2000.
There were more than 43,890 additional doctors employed in the NHS in 2010 compared to 2000.
There were 74,663 more NHS nurses in 2010 compared to ten years earlier.
2,125 more practice nurses were employed by GPs in 2010 than ten years earlier.
50.4 per cent of NHS employees are professionally qualified clinical staff.
Since 2000 the number of professionally qualified clinical staff within the NHS has risen by 30.26 per cent. This rise includes an increase in doctors of 45 per cent; a rise in the number of nurses of 22 per cent; and 25 per cent more ambulance staff.
Medical school intake rose from 3,749 in 1997/98 to 6,451 in 2006/07 - a rise of 74.5 per cent.

Management

Managers and senior managers accounted for 2.9 per cent of the 1.4 million staff employed by the NHS in 2010.
Between 2000 and 2010 the NHS recruited 16,706 additional managers, an average annual increase of 5.2 per cent. In the same period more than 118,500 additional doctors and nurses have been recruited.
In 2008/09 the management costs of the NHS had fallen from 5.0 per cent in 1997/98 to 3.0 per cent.

Clearly it creates wealth for its employees, its service and product suppliers and its customers by making them better and putting them back to work.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Dana69 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:45 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Dana69 wrote: Hmm..I don't really want to derail your beautiful symmetry of perfect government monetary symbiosis, but where did the bountiful Australian government get $900 to pay each person? Did they borrow it, earn it, or create it out of thin air?
The Reserve Bank of Australia. The Reserve Bank of Australia issues government bonds and settles those bonds using taxation revenue. Next question.

The Australian government can't simply issue bonds. They must be bought by someone and repaid with interest. All you have done is create inflation.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:23 pm

Gord wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:It is fun to see our all-powerful American brothers becoming so concerned about the nature of the "State" which they term as "Government". I refer to the following thread and wait to see if it can help increase their knowledge about it.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/w ... v/ch01.htm
I can't click on that link the CIA will catch me!! :afdb:
Although written in a lighter vein, this remark of Gord signifies the role of the government. I recall a scene from Charlie Chaplin's Modern Times where the tramp is being caught and jailed for inadvertently holding a red flag used as an alarm during a road repair. :mrgreen:

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:27 pm

Dana69 wrote:The Australian government can't simply issue bonds. They must be bought by someone and repaid with interest. All you have done is create inflation.
Amazingly the Australian government actually does issue government bonds.

A government bond is a bond issued by a national government denominated in the country's own currency.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/austral ... bond-yield" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you have any understanding of basic economics at all? Do you know the the difference between fixed coupon yield rates on bonds and paying interest on a loan? This is high school economics.

Investing in Government bonds for Dummies
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/i ... bonds.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Matthew Ellard on Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:46 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: Although written in a lighter vein, this remark of Gord signifies the role of the government. I recall a scene from Charlie Chaplin's Modern Times where the tramp is being caught and jailed for inadvertently holding a red flag used as an alarm during a road repair. :mrgreen:
Charles Chaplin is one of the greatest humans on the planet from history. He fought against fascists in the Great Dictator. I beg of all of you to watch this short speech.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:26 am

A Brief History of Economics
Wikipedia notes that discussions of economics by Chinese, Greek, and Persian authors, among others, date from antiquity, and that production costs, efficiency, and relationships between price, supply, and demand were among the economic topics discussed even centuries ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; While kingdoms and empires of those times engaged in economic activities such as taxation, road-building, and the production of war materiel, no distinction was made between the economics of private interests, now called microeconomics and those of governmental interests, which are now referred to as macroeconomics.
According to Wikipedia, “Publication of Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations in 1776, has been described as "the effective birth of economics as a separate discipline."[85] This book identified land, labor, and capital as the three factors of production and the major contributors to a nation's wealth.” Smith, a Scotsman, argued that Great Britain would be wealthier as a whole if it abolished laws creating tariffs on foreign wool, textiles, and other commodities to benefit certain special interests, and also abolished laws enabling guilds to restrict entry into various trades.
Thus, although Smith addressed the question of governmental economic actions regarding national wealth, he thought them to be detrimental, and was opposed to them. This attitude, labeled laissez-faire, lies within the general rules governing microeconomics. The concept of macroeconomics, in which governments actively try to increase the wealth of nations, as we shall see, developed later. Smith might be most famous for his statement that necessary quantities of everything from four penny nails to onions and sailing ships were produced almost as if controlled by “an invisible hand.”
The forms of economics exactly opposite to Smith’s laissez-faire were those of centralized “command economies” of countries such as Russia and Albania which resulted from the introduction of communism. Communism, itself, apparently has various complicated roots which may be traced to ancient China, Greece, and elsewhere; and in the 19th Century to France, England, Germany, and other countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The birth of communism as a powerful modern force might be said to have originated with the publication of The Communist Manifesto 1848 by the Germans Karl Marx (1818-1883) and Friedrich Engels (1820-1895) Although their writings, including Capital (Das Kapital), l867, were very much involved with economic issues, both Marx and Engels are regarded primarily as social scientists and revolutionaries rather than economists. Their writings are thought to at least have helped inspire the overthrow of Czar Nicholas II and the capitalist (and royalty/serf system) of the Russian Empire, and other communist revolutions. They believed that after the existing system was replaced by a government controlled by “the working class” that the state would wither away. Perhaps it is this prediction that prevents modern economists from claiming them as their own.
At about the same time that Marx and Engels were writing, Austrian professor Carl Menger (1840-1921), founder of the Austrian school of economics, wrote Principles of Economics, 1871. Followers of Menger include Austrians Ludwig von Mises (1881-1973) and Friedrick Hayek (1889-1992) all of whom contributed to Smith’s theory of an “Invisible Hand” by providing improved theories of pricing and value, and all opposed currency debasement (now called quantitative easing), and the new socialist policies developing in the Western world. Famous Austrian economists of the US include Henry Hazlitt (1894-1993) and Murray Rothbard (1926-1996). In a long and illustrious career Hazlitt served as the economic editor for the NY Times from 1934-1946, wrote many books, including The Full Employment Bill: An Analysis (1945), Economics in One Lesson (1946), and The Conquest of Poverty (1973); and received the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1974. Rothbard also wrote many books including America’s Great Depression, (1963), For a New Liberty, (1973), and The Ethics of Liberty (1982). All of the Austrian School economists opposed government involvement in the economy and thus were more allied with the classical economics of Adam Smith than with the newer government-manipulating economics of Marx and John Maynard Keynes.
According to Wikipedia, “Macroeconomics, at least in its modern form, began with the publication of John Maynard Keynes’s General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money, 1936.” Many economic analysts subscribed to the idea that Roosevelt’s deficit spending and make-work jobs programs hastened the end of the Great Depression, a theory that is disputed by Austrian economists, but which may have given a boost to the ideas of Keynes back in 1936, who said that deficit spending, (increases in government spending and/or cutting taxes) could heat up a sluggish economy, while cuts in spending and increased taxes could slow down an “overheated” economy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroeconomics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; In 1971, after taking the US off the gold standard, Republican President Richard Nixon was quoted as saying “I am now a Keynesian in economics.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_are_all_Keynesians_now" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Today, forms of Keynesian economics are by far the most widely taught economics on Western college campuses, although Monetarism, a system of economics proposed by Nobel Prize winner Milton Friedman (1912-2006) (who theorized that economic stability and growth in national economies could be controlled by adjustments to the money supply though actions of the Treasury Dept. and the Federal Reserve), is often taught in combination with Keynesianism, using complex equations, charts, and graphs.
Milton Friedman’s son, economist David Friedman, who currently teaches law at Santa Clara University, takes a more laissez-faire view than his father, and even more laissez-faire than Austrian economists, or Adam Smith’s classical economics, espousing no government economic activity whatsoever, making his case in one of his earlier books, The Machinery of Freedom, 1973. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_D._Friedman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Is Professor David Friedman likely to win a Nobel Prize for his detailed theories as to how a true system of laissez-faire economics could work to everyone’s benefit? It’s hardly likely given the conventional political wisdom that more government control is necessary, not less, to solve today’s problems of human greed and corruption, which is blamed for poor economic performance.
But, one might ask, how have Western, Keynesian-based economies progressed in the last 40 years since Nixon took the US off the gold standard and proclaimed himself to be a Keynesian? How has increased government intervention in economic matters worked out? Well, Greece appears to be near bankruptcy, while the once all-powerful US economy is now propped up by the Chinese.
Keynesian Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and Keynesian Federal Reserve Chairman Benjamin Bernanke, using the best Keynesian economic minds and the most carefully collected statistics and the most elaborate economic models available, have been totally unable to accurately predict the consequences of their economic manipulations. It seems that they might as well rely on the advice of astrologers to make their forecasts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. And that brings us up to date, where economics is now.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:10 am

Friend, I am deeply moved by your understanding of the subject in spite of living in an adverse environment. Please follow the link and read the whole book to get a clear vision about the cause of poverty in the society.

http://www.archive.org/details/acontrib ... 00marxuoft

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:15 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Friend, I am deeply moved by your understanding of the subject in spite of living in an adverse environment. Please follow the link and read the whole book to get a clear vision about the cause of poverty in the society.
http://www.archive.org/details/acontrib ... 00marxuoft
IMHO Marx contributed to a great step forward by helping inspire the overthrow of royal caste systems and serfdom, but I don't believe he understood the impact of the creative forces of individual liberty and economic freedom iinvolved n lifting the world out of poverty.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:24 am

Dana69 wrote: All you have done is create inflation.
And yet . . . it hasn't. Not anywhere. Could it be that your Econ101 textbook was a tad oversimplistic?
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:16 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Friend, I am deeply moved by your understanding of the subject in spite of living in an adverse environment. Please follow the link and read the whole book to get a clear vision about the cause of poverty in the society.

http://www.archive.org/details/acontrib ... 00marxuoft
Your repeated linking to Karl Marx suggests that you are stuck in history and are unable to develop and advance your economic thinking.

There are not enough Europeans on this forum to point out that many Europen countries are to varying degrees social democracies where many from the working classes are now in government and governments do care about the workers and aim to use the best parts of capitalism whilst protecting workers from its extremes.

Many European's do not suffer from the scepticism of the intentions of government and big business that American's do. Watching US news stations and other TV and it appears the media are intent on scaring the US population to death and stirring suspicion and dread.

The Red Threat was felt much more in the USA than in Europe where many socialists and communists have had major roles in government and influencing its policies.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:49 pm

Nessie wrote:Watching US news stations and other TV and it appears the media are intent on scaring the US population to death and stirring suspicion and dread.
That sounds about right.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:18 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Nessie wrote:Watching US news stations and other TV and it appears the media are intent on scaring the US population to death and stirring suspicion and dread.
That sounds about right.
News media gives the consumers what they want.... if they didn't then they'd have no consumers.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Dana69 » Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:46 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Dana69 wrote: All you have done is create inflation.
And yet . . . it hasn't. Not anywhere. Could it be that your Econ101 textbook was a tad oversimplistic?

Could it be that you view everything through the lens of confirmation bias to prove your points? Australia issued bonds to provide $900 to each citizen; these bonds need to be purchased by someone to inject this money into the system, thereby increasing the money supply. The bonds ultimately need to be repaid with interest.

Increasing the money supply, and retiring bonds with interest, are basic mechanism for increasing inflation. It may be pushed down the road somewhat, but this is the ultimate end. You can't escape the cause and effect of this program. Econ 101, unless you plan to rewrite the entire foundation of economic theory outside of Keynes.

Aggregate demand theory is horse crap and has been debunked as a legitimate policy program.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:56 pm

Dana69 wrote:[ Econ 101, unless you plan to rewrite the entire foundation of economic theory outside of Keynes.
Yup, and a chunk of Keynes, too.

First off, governments don't control the money supply. No one does, and haven't since the '60's. Just because things change does not necessarily mean that textbooks keep up. That lack of control was not a big deal until 10 - 12 years ago. Now? Who knows?

Quick, for a bonus point, which billionaire founded a new school of economics two years ago to rewrite the entire foundation of economic theory based on empirical data and models that actually represent what is happening?

Can you identify it by name without google?
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:03 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Dana69 wrote:[ Econ 101, unless you plan to rewrite the entire foundation of economic theory outside of Keynes.
Yup, and a chunk of Keynes, too.

First off, governments don't control the money supply.
Which money supply are you talking about?

M1
Money supply includes all coins and currency; checking accounts, and (NOW) Accounts.

M2
Money supply that includes M1 in addition to all time-related deposits, savings deposits, and non-institutional money-market funds.

M3
Money supply that includes M2 as well as all large time deposits, institutional money-market funds, short-term repurchase agreements, along with other larger liquid assets.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:01 am

An Even Briefer Economic History
For most of human history most people lived at a subsistance/poverty level, including all of my grandparents.

By 1880, according to this source, the US became the World's #1 economic power, although others might argue that it occurred after WW I (1914-1918); and most Americans began enjoying having electricity, running water, and other amenities
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 00766.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In 1936 Britisher John Maynard Keynes published The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money, while most Americans were becoming relatively well off.

Keynesianism arguably became "official" US economic policy in 1971 when President Richard Nixon took the US off the gold standard and stated that he now had become a Keynesian.

Now, after 40 years of Keynesianism the US ieconomy s stagnating and is deeply in debt to the Chinese and others. Cause and effect? A new-found greed that the robber barons didn't have? What happened?
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:14 am

I think it a tad easy to say that Keynes had no influence until 1971.
What was the new deal and the big infrastructure works in the 30s if not a form of counter-cyclical activities?

So you'd have to credit the "Keynes era" with quite a bit of the up-turn as well. US' troubles have little to do with Keynes, and more to do with changing conditions in the world economy. The US economy is no longer the only big one, and neither can the US any longer dictate what the others must do. (which they could until 1971, and frankly even until well into the 90s.) A big chunk of the current crisis, is going at it pretending you could keep buying stuff even after you stopped having the cash flow to pay for it. You could do this for the better part of the 20th century, but you can't anymore. And seem to be struggling with grasping the idea still. (not saying you don't get it, but your politicians certainly don't)

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:53 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:I think it a tad easy to say that Keynes had no influence until 1971.
What was the new deal and the big infrastructure works in the 30s if not a form of counter-cyclical activities?

So you'd have to credit the "Keynes era" with quite a bit of the up-turn as well. US' troubles have little to do with Keynes, and more to do with changing conditions in the world economy. The US economy is no longer the only big one, and neither can the US any longer dictate what the others must do. (which they could until 1971, and frankly even until well into the 90s.) A big chunk of the current crisis, is going at it pretending you could keep buying stuff even after you stopped having the cash flow to pay for it. You could do this for the better part of the 20th century, but you can't anymore. And seem to be struggling with grasping the idea still. (not saying you don't get it, but your politicians certainly don't)

Peace
Dan
Okay, I'll modify the statement:
Now, after at least 40 years of Keynesianism the US economy is stagnating and is deeply in debt to the Chinese and others. Cause and effect? A new-found greed that the robber barons didn't have? What happened?

Isn't "buying stuff even when you don't have the cash to pay for it" part of Keynesianism, like what is going on in Greece, the cradle of democracy?

Trust me, I'm just pursuing this topic out of curiousity, to actually try to understand what is going on. I truly want to see this emerging police state and its vast Military-Industrial War Machine go bankrupt and allow the possibility of peace breaking out.

One of the new Police State tactics: Watch the video.
http://www.newschannel5.com/story/15725 ... -statewide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Peace,
Tom
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:29 pm

Though, to what extent, if any do the various economic theories take into account human greed and a system that had lost much of its regulation and checks?

Present a greedy banker with limitless ways of creating financing, which will not be thoroughly checked to ensure their provenance (and to make it worse many were given 5 star ratings for security of investment), with which he could create huge amounts of money by selling, in a climate where previous mis-selling has gone relatively unpunished and there you have a problem. I do not think that Keynes or anyone else thought that was likely and I am sure the unregulated system we had would have collapsed all theories.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Dana69 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:24 pm

Sigh, as ususal people go and conflate terms to make a point to prove an unfounded assertion. Greed is a psychological concept manifested as an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs or deserves. It is typically used to criticize those who seek excessive material wealth, but it also used to describe criminal behavior.

Steve Jobs was greedy. He wanted as much as he could possibly attain; he wanted as much market share for Apple products as possible, even at the expense of other companies like Samsung etc. Mexican drug cartels are greedy, they want as much money as possible and sell as many drugs as they can to accumulate more and more.

Are you equating Jobs drive for excess the same as a Mexican drug lord? What you should be focusing on is illegal activity, with regards to accumulating wealth based on greed, NOT someones desire to create better and more usual goods to satisfy their greedy intentions.

If owners of Wal-mart want to get richer, and the road to those riches is selling products as cheap as possible to attain this, who benefits? Everyone.

Also, try to argue these premises without bringing in the notion of exploiting workers. This is another topic and has nothing to do with the concept of greed.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:43 pm

The point I am trying to make is that the banking collapse would have caused the ruin of any economic theory, Keynsian, Monetarist etc. It is the same as past collapses going back to the Tulip mania in Europe

"Tulip Mania -
History's first major asset bubble. Tulips were introduced to Europe from the Ottoman Empire in the mid-1500s and became very popular in the Netherlands. As they grew in popularity, prices for tulips rose steadily, then unsustainably, in the 1630s. Prices suddenly collapsed in February 1637. Interestingly, tulip mania resulted in the creation of a formal futures market and marked one of the first times when contracts were traded without exchanging the underlying asset."

Whatever economic policy you follow, if people go manic it can lead to the collapse of that policy. That is what has happened with the recent debt collapse. Instead of tulips it was debt that unsustainably grew.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Dana69 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:39 pm

Nessie wrote:The point I am trying to make is that the banking collapse would have caused the ruin of any economic theory, Keynsian, Monetarist etc. It is the same as past collapses going back to the Tulip mania in Europe

"Tulip Mania -
History's first major asset bubble. Tulips were introduced to Europe from the Ottoman Empire in the mid-1500s and became very popular in the Netherlands. As they grew in popularity, prices for tulips rose steadily, then unsustainably, in the 1630s. Prices suddenly collapsed in February 1637. Interestingly, tulip mania resulted in the creation of a formal futures market and marked one of the first times when contracts were traded without exchanging the underlying asset."

Whatever economic policy you follow, if people go manic it can lead to the collapse of that policy. That is what has happened with the recent debt collapse. Instead of tulips it was debt that unsustainably grew.
If people go manic on any policy it ought to collapse. Artificially propping up this bubble does nothing but perpetuate a flawed program. Collapse and reductions in business are the markets natural mechanism for correcting a flawed policy. In the US we had a housing bubble which artificially inflated values, along with systemic problems with Fannie Mae and Freddi Mac, which were dealing loans to unworthy people then packaging the loans as securities and selling them. The result is exactly what happens in a flawed system. It collapsed, and now we have a long term housing value problem; too much inventory, too little demand.

This is going to take some time to correct and will hurt people. SO WHAT, that's life and nothing is fair. It cant be bailed out, or averted; we must face the medicine and let the system work itself out of the mess, no matter how uncomfortable it gets, otherwise you simply delay the inevitable and push the effects down the road for a minimum period of time, until we become Roman and fail from within and collapse.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:10 pm

So we agree then, good.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:58 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Friend, I am deeply moved by your understanding of the subject in spite of living in an adverse environment. Please follow the link and read the whole book to get a clear vision about the cause of poverty in the society.
http://www.archive.org/details/acontrib ... 00marxuoft
IMHO Marx contributed to a great step forward by helping inspire the overthrow of royal caste systems and serfdom, but I don't believe he understood the impact of the creative forces of individual liberty and economic freedom iinvolved n lifting the world out of poverty.
If you have time, I refer you the following link, which may show how we, deceived by the looters of human labour, often think that there is some good feature in this man-eating system that would somehow bail it out from a sure extinction. But the fact is that, capitalism bears within itself so fatal a self-contradiction, that is sure to pull it down in favour of a cooperative society.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... osophy.pdf

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:21 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Friend, I am deeply moved by your understanding of the subject in spite of living in an adverse environment. Please follow the link and read the whole book to get a clear vision about the cause of poverty in the society.
http://www.archive.org/details/acontrib ... 00marxuoft
IMHO Marx contributed to a great step forward by helping inspire the overthrow of royal caste systems and serfdom, but I don't believe he understood the impact of the creative forces of individual liberty and economic freedom iinvolved n lifting the world out of poverty.
If you have time, I refer you the following link, which may show how we, deceived by the looters of human labour, often think that there is some good feature in this man-eating system that would somehow bail it out from a sure extinction. But the fact is that, capitalism bears within itself so fatal a self-contradiction, that is sure to pull it down in favour of a cooperative society.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... osophy.pdf
Actually, although Proudhon was a mixed bag, I tend to like him, particularly his "To be governed:"

"To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so."-- Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
Last edited by Tom Palven on Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:28 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: Although written in a lighter vein, this remark of Gord signifies the role of the government. I recall a scene from Charlie Chaplin's Modern Times where the tramp is being caught and jailed for inadvertently holding a red flag used as an alarm during a road repair. :mrgreen:
Charles Chaplin is one of the greatest humans on the planet from history. He fought against fascists in the Great Dictator. I beg of all of you to watch this short speech.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Although I had heard of The Great Dictator, I didn't know anything about it. Yes, Chaplin was quite a guy, and his friendship with Stan Laurel is interesting, too. Cool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Chaplin" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Dana69 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:39 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Friend, I am deeply moved by your understanding of the subject in spite of living in an adverse environment. Please follow the link and read the whole book to get a clear vision about the cause of poverty in the society.
http://www.archive.org/details/acontrib ... 00marxuoft
IMHO Marx contributed to a great step forward by helping inspire the overthrow of royal caste systems and serfdom, but I don't believe he understood the impact of the creative forces of individual liberty and economic freedom iinvolved n lifting the world out of poverty.
If you have time, I refer you the following link, which may show how we, deceived by the looters of human labour, often think that there is some good feature in this man-eating system that would somehow bail it out from a sure extinction. But the fact is that, capitalism bears within itself so fatal a self-contradiction, that is sure to pull it down in favour of a cooperative society.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... osophy.pdf
Capitalism contains a "fatal self contradiction?" Capitalism is not a cooperative society? What kind of drugs are you smoking? Capitalism doesn't work without voluntary free association and trade. I cant believe at this stage in our economic evolution we have to discuss the properties of a capitalistic free market system. The main distribution of resources, under a capitalistic system is pricing. Explain exactly how you feel distribution will be accomplished under a Marxist / socialistic system. Explain how you think risk and R&D are managed under the same system.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:23 am

Tom-Palven wrote: Okay, I'll modify the statement:
Now, after at least 40 years of Keynesianism the US economy is stagnating and is deeply in debt to the Chinese and others. Cause and effect? A new-found greed that the robber barons didn't have? What happened?
Monetarism with Reagan/Thatcher also happened in that timeframe. Just saying pinning the world's troubles to a single concept is way too simplistic. It's what conspiracy theorists does. (not saying you are, just illustrating what oversimplifying gets you) It seems since 1971, you got a good couple of decades before starting to stagnate in the 90s. I think the most important change, was that of world politics much more than an arguable policy position which certainly haven't been hegemonial in the US for quite some time. Keynesianism means saving money in good times to spend in the bad times. The US have cut taxes and spent like crazy in the good times, and now continue to spend in the downturn. The US have no experience in economic planning where they have to take into account that they can't influence all the other players into doing it the US way. They have to play by the same rules as others now, and it hurts.

Norway is still Keynesian in the same time-frame and doing fine. But we do roll back or at least stabilize public spending in good times.
Isn't "buying stuff even when you don't have the cash to pay for it" part of Keynesianism, like what is going on in Greece, the cradle of democracy?
It is. But the US have gotten away throughout the years by the "500 lb gorilla" clause. The power to re-negotiate when terms became poor for you. Money always favour the ones in power, or rather the ones with power find ways to make money work for them. Also you used to export a lot more as a nation. The rude awakening is that you are no longer the 500lb gorilla that you think you are. Before 1971 the world's economy was pegged to the dollar (through gold valued in dollars). A very favourable position for the americans. Even after 71 when currencies were floated, they are still kinda tied to oil, which again is valued in dollars. That hegemony is ending, and it is a realization that has not quite made it to washington yet. Or if it have, they pretend it hasn't and hopes it goes away.
Trust me, I'm just pursuing this topic out of curiousity, to actually try to understand what is going on. I truly want to see this emerging police state and its vast Military-Industrial War Machine go bankrupt and allow the possibility of peace breaking out.
A noble sentiment which I share.

Peace
Dan
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:56 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote: Okay, I'll modify the statement:
Now, after at least 40 years of Keynesianism the US economy is stagnating and is deeply in debt to the Chinese and others. Cause and effect? A new-found greed that the robber barons didn't have? What happened?
Monetarism with Reagan/Thatcher also happened in that timeframe. Just saying pinning the world's troubles to a single concept is way too simplistic. It's what conspiracy theorists does. (not saying you are, just illustrating what oversimplifying gets you) It seems since 1971, you got a good couple of decades before starting to stagnate in the 90s. I think the most important change, was that of world politics much more than an arguable policy position which certainly haven't been hegemonial in the US for quite some time. Keynesianism means saving money in good times to spend in the bad times. The US have cut taxes and spent like crazy in the good times, and now continue to spend in the downturn. The US have no experience in economic planning where they have to take into account that they can't influence all the other players into doing it the US way. They have to play by the same rules as others now, and it hurts.

Norway is still Keynesian in the same time-frame and doing fine. But we do roll back or at least stabilize public spending in good times.
Isn't "buying stuff even when you don't have the cash to pay for it" part of Keynesianism, like what is going on in Greece, the cradle of democracy?
It is. But the US have gotten away throughout the years by the "500 lb gorilla" clause. The power to re-negotiate when terms became poor for you. Money always favour the ones in power, or rather the ones with power find ways to make money work for them. Also you used to export a lot more as a nation. The rude awakening is that you are no longer the 500lb gorilla that you think you are. Before 1971 the world's economy was pegged to the dollar (through gold valued in dollars). A very favourable position for the americans. Even after 71 when currencies were floated, they are still kinda tied to oil, which again is valued in dollars. That hegemony is ending, and it is a realization that has not quite made it to washington yet. Or if it have, they pretend it hasn't and hopes it goes away.
Trust me, I'm just pursuing this topic out of curiousity, to actually try to understand what is going on. I truly want to see this emerging police state and its vast Military-Industrial War Machine go bankrupt and allow the possibility of peace breaking out.
A noble sentiment which I share.

Peace
Dan
Cheers! :redwine:
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:24 pm

The '500lb gorilla clause' is now banked for future use!
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:38 am

Dana69 wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Friend, I am deeply moved by your understanding of the subject in spite of living in an adverse environment. Please follow the link and read the whole book to get a clear vision about the cause of poverty in the society.
http://www.archive.org/details/acontrib ... 00marxuoft
IMHO Marx contributed to a great step forward by helping inspire the overthrow of royal caste systems and serfdom, but I don't believe he understood the impact of the creative forces of individual liberty and economic freedom iinvolved n lifting the world out of poverty.
If you have time, I refer you the following link, which may show how we, deceived by the looters of human labour, often think that there is some good feature in this man-eating system that would somehow bail it out from a sure extinction. But the fact is that, capitalism bears within itself so fatal a self-contradiction, that is sure to pull it down in favour of a cooperative society.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... osophy.pdf
Capitalism contains a "fatal self contradiction?" Capitalism is not a cooperative society? What kind of drugs are you smoking? Capitalism doesn't work without voluntary free association and trade. I cant believe at this stage in our economic evolution we have to discuss the properties of a capitalistic free market system. The main distribution of resources, under a capitalistic system is pricing. Explain exactly how you feel distribution will be accomplished under a Marxist / socialistic system. Explain how you think risk and R&D are managed under the same system.
Voluntary association between a billionaire and a penniless worker? Has capitalism left any room for bargain for the worker? For these 500 years, all skilled craftsmen have been robbed of their place of trade which now belongs only to big capitalists. The only place the worker can go is the factory of the capitalist where he has to sell his labour in the capitalist's condition.

Drugs is the speciality of the capitalists. It is produced by them to make money in lieu of the lives of people. I thank myself I did not fall in this trap of them as yet.

I need not explain the later part of your post. It was proved by the workers of the Soviet Union, China etc. what could they build if they were given a chance. They had arranged Food, Clothes, Shelter, Health and Education at the expense of the state. These things were either free or well within the capacity of all people. But the capitalists within and abroad destroyed their beautifully arranged welfare states only for the sake of their dirty business.

That Capitalism contains a fatal self contradiction is now too obvious in its citadel i.e. USA. This leader of the capitalist community is now under a debt trap of which she will never be able to liberate herself unless she denies all debts with the threat of missiles and bombs.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:44 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Dana69 wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Friend, I am deeply moved by your understanding of the subject in spite of living in an adverse environment. Please follow the link and read the whole book to get a clear vision about the cause of poverty in the society.
http://www.archive.org/details/acontrib ... 00marxuoft
IMHO Marx contributed to a great step forward by helping inspire the overthrow of royal caste systems and serfdom, but I don't believe he understood the impact of the creative forces of individual liberty and economic freedom iinvolved n lifting the world out of poverty.
If you have time, I refer you the following link, which may show how we, deceived by the looters of human labour, often think that there is some good feature in this man-eating system that would somehow bail it out from a sure extinction. But the fact is that, capitalism bears within itself so fatal a self-contradiction, that is sure to pull it down in favour of a cooperative society.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... osophy.pdf
Capitalism contains a "fatal self contradiction?" Capitalism is not a cooperative society? What kind of drugs are you smoking? Capitalism doesn't work without voluntary free association and trade. I cant believe at this stage in our economic evolution we have to discuss the properties of a capitalistic free market system. The main distribution of resources, under a capitalistic system is pricing. Explain exactly how you feel distribution will be accomplished under a Marxist / socialistic system. Explain how you think risk and R&D are managed under the same system.
Voluntary association between a billionaire and a penniless worker? Has capitalism left any room for bargain for the worker? For these 500 years, all skilled craftsmen have been robbed of their place of trade which now belongs only to big capitalists. The only place the worker can go is the factory of the capitalist where he has to sell his labour in the capitalist's condition.

Drugs is the speciality of the capitalists. It is produced by them to make money in lieu of the lives of people. I thank myself I did not fall in this trap of them as yet.

I need not explain the later part of your post. It was proved by the workers of the Soviet Union, China etc. what could they build if they were given a chance. They had arranged Food, Clothes, Shelter, Health and Education at the expense of the state. These things were either free or well within the capacity of all people. But the capitalists within and abroad destroyed their beautifully arranged welfare states only for the sake of their dirty business.

That Capitalism contains a fatal self contradiction is now too obvious in its citadel i.e. USA. This leader of the capitalist community is now under a debt trap of which she will never be able to liberate herself unless she denies all debts with the threat of missiles and bombs.

WTF??? This is now just insane.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:25 am

"Voluntary association between a billionaire and a penniless worker? Has capitalism left any room for bargain for the worker? For these 500 years, all skilled craftsmen have been robbed of their place of trade which now belongs only to big capitalists. The only place the worker can go is the factory of the capitalist where he has to sell his labour in the capitalist's condition."

There is voluntary association as people can move jobs and we do not have slavery any more. There is room for bargain when trade unions freely exist. Skilled craftsmen get skilled labour wages. Workers can set up their own businesses and become billionaires as well as former billionaires going bankrupt and out of business.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:58 pm

bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Dana69 wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: If you have time, I refer you the following link, which may show how we, deceived by the looters of human labour, often think that there is some good feature in this man-eating system that would somehow bail it out from a sure extinction. But the fact is that, capitalism bears within itself so fatal a self-contradiction, that is sure to pull it down in favour of a cooperative society.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... osophy.pdf
Capitalism contains a "fatal self contradiction?" Capitalism is not a cooperative society? What kind of drugs are you smoking? Capitalism doesn't work without voluntary free association and trade. I cant believe at this stage in our economic evolution we have to discuss the properties of a capitalistic free market system. The main distribution of resources, under a capitalistic system is pricing. Explain exactly how you feel distribution will be accomplished under a Marxist / socialistic system. Explain how you think risk and R&D are managed under the same system.
Voluntary association between a billionaire and a penniless worker? Has capitalism left any room for bargain for the worker? For these 500 years, all skilled craftsmen have been robbed of their place of trade which now belongs only to big capitalists. The only place the worker can go is the factory of the capitalist where he has to sell his labour in the capitalist's condition.

Drugs is the speciality of the capitalists. It is produced by them to make money in lieu of the lives of people. I thank myself I did not fall in this trap of them as yet.

I need not explain the later part of your post. It was proved by the workers of the Soviet Union, China etc. what could they build if they were given a chance. They had arranged Food, Clothes, Shelter, Health and Education at the expense of the state. These things were either free or well within the capacity of all people. But the capitalists within and abroad destroyed their beautifully arranged welfare states only for the sake of their dirty business.

That Capitalism contains a fatal self contradiction is now too obvious in its citadel i.e. USA. This leader of the capitalist community is now under a debt trap of which she will never be able to liberate herself unless she denies all debts with the threat of missiles and bombs.

WTF??? This is now just insane.
Agreed. This is insane. It is insane to drop napalm bombs on innocent children, it is insane to burn cities with atom bombs, it is insane to destroy a country's crop by spraying Agent Orange, it is insane to kill half a million Iraqis in the name of liberating them from Saddam's dictatorship etc. etc. etc. Is there any guarantee that these perpetrators of death will not give war a try to get rid of their some trillion dollar debt?

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:09 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:it is insane to kill half a million Iraqis in the name of liberating them from Saddam's dictatorship
Where did you get that figure? Most of the numbers I have seen were ~100,000. Don't get me wrong, I still think that is abhorrent, I'm just wondering where you got 500,000.

Also, how do any of the things you just listed relate to the current discussion?
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:24 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Dana69 wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: If you have time, I refer you the following link, which may show how we, deceived by the looters of human labour, often think that there is some good feature in this man-eating system that would somehow bail it out from a sure extinction. But the fact is that, capitalism bears within itself so fatal a self-contradiction, that is sure to pull it down in favour of a cooperative society.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... osophy.pdf
Capitalism contains a "fatal self contradiction?" Capitalism is not a cooperative society? What kind of drugs are you smoking? Capitalism doesn't work without voluntary free association and trade. I cant believe at this stage in our economic evolution we have to discuss the properties of a capitalistic free market system. The main distribution of resources, under a capitalistic system is pricing. Explain exactly how you feel distribution will be accomplished under a Marxist / socialistic system. Explain how you think risk and R&D are managed under the same system.
Voluntary association between a billionaire and a penniless worker? Has capitalism left any room for bargain for the worker? For these 500 years, all skilled craftsmen have been robbed of their place of trade which now belongs only to big capitalists. The only place the worker can go is the factory of the capitalist where he has to sell his labour in the capitalist's condition.

Drugs is the speciality of the capitalists. It is produced by them to make money in lieu of the lives of people. I thank myself I did not fall in this trap of them as yet.

I need not explain the later part of your post. It was proved by the workers of the Soviet Union, China etc. what could they build if they were given a chance. They had arranged Food, Clothes, Shelter, Health and Education at the expense of the state. These things were either free or well within the capacity of all people. But the capitalists within and abroad destroyed their beautifully arranged welfare states only for the sake of their dirty business.

That Capitalism contains a fatal self contradiction is now too obvious in its citadel i.e. USA. This leader of the capitalist community is now under a debt trap of which she will never be able to liberate herself unless she denies all debts with the threat of missiles and bombs.

WTF??? This is now just insane.
Agreed. This is insane. It is insane to drop napalm bombs on innocent children, it is insane to burn cities with atom bombs, it is insane to destroy a country's crop by spraying Agent Orange, it is insane to kill half a million Iraqis in the name of liberating them from Saddam's dictatorship etc. etc. etc. Is there any guarantee that these perpetrators of death will not give war a try to get rid of their some trillion dollar debt?
No, your comments are insane.
Where are napalm bombs being dropped on innocent children by the US?
Where are cities being burned with atom bombs dropped by the US?
Wher is the US spraying agent orange?
What data do you have that the US killed 1/2 a million Iraqis?

Right now you're sounding like the guy on the street corner wearing a billboard that the end is near...
~
BigTim
"I'm not entirely convinced that ValHalla isn't real."