Government support is essential to life and liberty

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Monster
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Monster » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:38 pm

JO 753 wrote: The problemz start wen people begin getting more money than the work they do iz worth.
Ridiculous. A person's work is worth exactly what someone else will pay.
And in between thoze 2 extreemz, the entire system iz rotten with unfair recompensation and inequality. Why duz a typical lawyer, for example, get 400$ per hour for a service that nobody really wants and will ad zilch to the general wealth, while a tool maker will be lucky to get 25$ per hour wile making stuff that can help generate billionz uv dollarz?
People DO value the work of lawyers. And lawyers can charge what they want. If they're too expensive, their customers will go to cheaper lawyers.
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Austin Harper
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:56 pm

Lawyers rates may also appear higher than they actually are. Not everything lawyers do is always billable.
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

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Nessie
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:01 pm

Monster wrote:
JO 753 wrote: The problemz start wen people begin getting more money than the work they do iz worth.
Ridiculous. A person's work is worth exactly what someone else will pay.
And in between thoze 2 extreemz, the entire system iz rotten with unfair recompensation and inequality. Why duz a typical lawyer, for example, get 400$ per hour for a service that nobody really wants and will ad zilch to the general wealth, while a tool maker will be lucky to get 25$ per hour wile making stuff that can help generate billionz uv dollarz?
People DO value the work of lawyers. And lawyers can charge what they want. If they're too expensive, their customers will go to cheaper lawyers.
Not always true. Markets can be manipulated to limit supply and drive up costs or limit competition and again drive up costs. The aim being to force customers to pay as high a price as possible without driving them away.
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Nessie
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:03 pm

Austin Harper wrote:Lawyers rates may also appear higher than they actually are. Not everything lawyers do is always billable.
But that is factored into the billable rates. Also many lawyers will do small 'free' work as a good will jesture to increase their other billable work.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:45 pm

Monster wrote:Ridiculous. A person's work is worth exactly what someone else will pay.
That's like saying that a Nigerian Prince is worth the money he scams out of suckers.

Corporate salaries and bonuses in the US are higher than elsewhere in the world because the American shareholders have been conned, not because the executives are worth more.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:03 pm

Are Charles Ponzi and Bernard Madoff worth what they were paid?
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:50 pm

JO 753 wrote:
t m jones wrote: Wealth has to be created, things and services must be produced through thought and labor.
The problemz start wen people begin getting more money than the work they do iz worth.
The people living under the shade of capitalism cannot feel the burnt of the workers on whom capitalism thrives. Wealth is created by surplus value of labour, the portion of the labour that is stolen from the worker in the name of paying him his wage. while the labour creates everything that is in the society, men are made to believe that there are some other source of wealth and property of the society, a portion of which is given as alms to the worker. This is the philosophy of capitalism, a blatant lie, on which capitalism banks to perpetuate its sucking of labour of the workers.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:06 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
JO 753 wrote:
t m jones wrote: Wealth has to be created, things and services must be produced through thought and labor.
The problemz start wen people begin getting more money than the work they do iz worth.
The people living under the shade of capitalism cannot feel the burnt of the workers on whom capitalism thrives. Wealth is created by surplus value of labour, the portion of the labour that is stolen from the worker in the name of paying him his wage. while the labour creates everything that is in the society, men are made to believe that there are some other source of wealth and property of the society, a portion of which is given as alms to the worker. This is the philosophy of capitalism, a blatant lie, on which capitalism banks to perpetuate its sucking of labour of the workers.
You seem to have the delusion that this is not true of communism too.

It is true that all wealth is created by the workers. When workers are effectively coordinated (management), their output per hour worked is enhanced. When facilities (assets) exist for the production to take place (investment), that productivity per hour worked is enhanced even more.

Managers and investors do not create wealth directly, but they need to eat and have homes too. The only source of food and shelter is the surplus output of the workers. It doesn't matter whether the investor is a shareholder or financial institution under a capitalist system, or the state in a communist system, the second law of thermodynamics applies to both.
Further surplus is required for asset maintenance, energy consumption and raw materials.

Whether the economic system is communist, socialist, mercantilist, or capitalist, the same principles apply. If the firm is well managed, everyone benefits, as the productivity per hour worked not only covers all the above, it also provides more for the workers too.

If you want to quarrel with how much the managers and investors take, be my guest, but their existence is a benefit to all. In an industrialized society, the existence of managers and investors is more than a benefit, it is a necessity. So is a financial sector, as the web of transactions between the others is impossible without one. The financial sector also creates no wealth on its own, and must be supported by the workers.

Like I said, squawk all you like about the shares taken by the non-producers, but please do not delude yourself that they are unnecessary.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Monster » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:59 pm

Nessie wrote:Are Charles Ponzi and Bernard Madoff worth what they were paid?
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Monster wrote:Ridiculous. A person's work is worth exactly what someone else will pay.
That's like saying that a Nigerian Prince is worth the money he scams out of suckers.

Corporate salaries and bonuses in the US are higher than elsewhere in the world because the American shareholders have been conned, not because the executives are worth more.
Y'all are equating crimes with legitimate buying and selling of labor. I'm not. And I don't see how that's a reasonable comparison. When I sell my labor to my company for my wage, my labor is worth exactly what they're willing to pay for it.
Listening twice as much as you speak is a sign of wisdom.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:10 pm

Monster wrote:
Nessie wrote:Are Charles Ponzi and Bernard Madoff worth what they were paid?
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Monster wrote:Ridiculous. A person's work is worth exactly what someone else will pay.
That's like saying that a Nigerian Prince is worth the money he scams out of suckers.

Corporate salaries and bonuses in the US are higher than elsewhere in the world because the American shareholders have been conned, not because the executives are worth more.
Y'all are equating crimes with legitimate buying and selling of labor.
Nigerian thing is a crime, but the corporate thing isn't
I'm not. And I don't see how that's a reasonable comparison. When I sell my labor to my company for my wage, my labor is worth exactly what they're willing to pay for it.
If you are a union member, that may well be true, as your wage has been negotiated. If you are one of the majority of non-union wage earners, your wage has not been negotiated, you've simply accepted their preliminary offer. Most people don't really have a choice. Assuming that that is all they are willing to pay is nonsense unless it is a competitive labour market, which it isn't for most wage earners.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:06 pm

I'm not sure that the price of labor is much different than the price of a beer at a bar. Isn't worth to someone what that someone is willing to pay for it, regardless of whether a third party negotiates the price? And if a person decides to forego the beer at tge requested price and buy it elsewhere, that's the way the cookie bounces. The price is either going to set by the spooky "invisible hand" or, in a command economy, a spookier government committee setting price controls, as with minimum wage laws.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:22 pm

Monster wrote:
Nessie wrote:Are Charles Ponzi and Bernard Madoff worth what they were paid?
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Monster wrote:Ridiculous. A person's work is worth exactly what someone else will pay.
That's like saying that a Nigerian Prince is worth the money he scams out of suckers.

Corporate salaries and bonuses in the US are higher than elsewhere in the world because the American shareholders have been conned, not because the executives are worth more.
Y'all are equating crimes with legitimate buying and selling of labor. I'm not. And I don't see how that's a reasonable comparison. When I sell my labor to my company for my wage, my labor is worth exactly what they're willing to pay for it.
Not quite that simple. You must earn twice as much as you get to cover overhead and make a profit for your company.
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:28 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:I'm not sure that the price of labor is much different than the price of a beer at a bar. Isn't worth to someone what that someone is willing to pay for it, regardless of whether a third party negotiates the price? And if a person decides to forego the beer at tge requested price and buy it elsewhere, that's the way the cookie bounces. The price is either going to set by the spooky "invisible hand" or, in a command economy, a spookier government committee setting price controls, as with minimum wage laws.
You're missing the point.
Wages rose considerably with the rise of the union movement, showing that employers had been paying a lot less than they were actually willing to pay, because the employers did not shut down, they payed the higher wage. Industrialized nations owe some (not all) their prosperity to that.

The invisible hand is just as real as an invisible unicorn.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:00 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:I'm not sure that the price of labor is much different than the price of a beer at a bar. Isn't worth to someone what that someone is willing to pay for it, regardless of whether a third party negotiates the price? And if a person decides to forego the beer at tge requested price and buy it elsewhere, that's the way the cookie bounces. The price is either going to set by the spooky "invisible hand" or, in a command economy, a spookier government committee setting price controls, as with minimum wage laws.
Wages rose considerably with the rise of the union movement, showing that employers had been paying a lot less than they were actually willing to pay,
Unions fought for more than just wages - job safety, medical coverage, 40 hour week, time and a half for overtime, better work place conditions, and other grievances...
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)