Government support is essential to life and liberty

Where no two people are likely to agree.
User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10898
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Location: has left the building

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:58 pm

Austin Harper wrote:The problem with communism is that for a communist state to come into being, a transitional government is needed. . . .
My primary problem with communism (and Marxism) is that it does not allow people to create a better standard of living for themselves. Communism reduces everyone to the lowest common denominator. There is little (or no) economic incentive for any individual to be more productive than the least productive worker.

User avatar
Austin Harper
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:22 pm
Custom Title: Rock Chalk Astrohawk
Location: Detroit

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:04 pm

Oops, I had my post written in a different order and then I cut and pasted it around to the way it is now before I posted it and I must have removed a line. It was "If a communist state ever successfully was created it would bear the burden of lazy people taking advantage of the system."

And, yes, because people won't actually contribute "according to their ability," the state is bound to be reduced to the lowest common denominator. Theoretically if everyone did contribute "according to their ability," it would be raised to the highest common denominator. But I think we are in agreement that that wouldn't happen in a real-world application.
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

User avatar
bigtim
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4088
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:04 pm
Custom Title: Skeptical Berserker
Location: Miðgarðr

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:05 pm

My problem with communism and marxism is that individuals do not own themselves and thus, do not own their labor.
~
BigTim
"I'm not entirely convinced that ValHalla isn't real."

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3073
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:19 pm

And you still end up with an elite who have all the power and money.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
Austin Harper
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:22 pm
Custom Title: Rock Chalk Astrohawk
Location: Detroit

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:35 pm

If you have an elite with all the power and money, you don't have a communist society.
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3073
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:47 pm

Yet the rulers in the USSR had the best cars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZiL" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the best country houses

http://iliketowastemytime.com/joseph-st ... ntry-house" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the best of places to work

http://www.moscow.info/kremlin/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and probably the best vodka as well :D

It was the same in the Eastern Block countries as well, check out Erich Honecker in East Germany and Niicolae Ceausescu in Romania and what they made for themselves, their families and the members of the elite.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
Austin Harper
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:22 pm
Custom Title: Rock Chalk Astrohawk
Location: Detroit

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:53 pm

Because the USSR was communist in name only. I agree, all countries calling themselves communist have ended up that way. My point was that they weren't true communist nations.
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

User avatar
bigtim
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4088
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:04 pm
Custom Title: Skeptical Berserker
Location: Miðgarðr

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:56 pm

Austin Harper wrote:Because the USSR was communist in name only. I agree, all countries calling themselves communist have ended up that way. My point was that they weren't true communist nations.
I think that standard of defnition means that the term communist nation is an oxymoron...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Communism is a social, political and economic movement that aims at the establishment of a classless, moneyless and stateless communist society structured upon common ownership of the means of production.
~
BigTim
"I'm not entirely convinced that ValHalla isn't real."

rickoshay85
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2219
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:24 pm

bigtim wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:Because the USSR was communist in name only. I agree, all countries calling themselves communist have ended up that way. My point was that they weren't true communist nations.
I think that standard of defnition means that the term communist nation is an oxymoron...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Communism is a social, political and economic movement that aims at the establishment of a classless, moneyless and stateless communist society structured upon common ownership of the means of production.
Instead of Communism, let's call it a modified Socialism
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

User avatar
Flash
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6151
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:09 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Flash » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:53 pm

xouper wrote:
My primary problem with communism (and Marxism) is that it does not allow people to create a better standard of living for themselves. Communism reduces everyone to the lowest common denominator. There is little (or no) economic incentive for any individual to be more productive than the least productive worker.
The problem with views such as these is that they reflect propaganda the people in the West were fed for years by their ruling classes. These views are rigid and largely untrue.
The workers in the former Soviet Union actually had incentives and some managed to better themselves. If they worked well they were promoted, paid better, sent to all kinds of sanatoriums and spas and got lots of medals. You also seem to forget that those countries were devastated by the war, their infrastructure was gone and their factories in ruins and I mean not one or two but, for example, the entire European part of the Soviet Union (with some exception of the areas close to the Ural mountains) was in ruins. Try to have a well functioning and honest communism under such conditions. Yet despite all of that they managed to rebuild the electric grid, rails, roads, and the cities. In addition, they had free early childcare, free education all the way to and including the university level, free health and dental care and free medicines.

Yet things went wrong, surely not everyone contributed according to their abilities, elites grabbed the best jobs, power and money and the corruption had spread. It became so bad that in a supposedly model socialist country very few people actually cared about socialism. I don't intend to inquire here why things went so wrong, it would probably take volumes and hundreds of inquisitive sociologists and political scientists to look into all that. But I know that the simplistic explanations such as "the human nature" for example do not do justice to the entire phenomenon. I also know that socialism in it's more democratic form survived well and made lots of countries prosperous and fair.
When I feel like exercising, I just lie down until the feeling goes away. Paul Terry

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10898
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Location: has left the building

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:46 am

Flash wrote:
xouper wrote:My primary problem with communism (and Marxism) is that it does not allow people to create a better standard of living for themselves. Communism reduces everyone to the lowest common denominator. There is little (or no) economic incentive for any individual to be more productive than the least productive worker.
The problem with views such as these is that they reflect propaganda the people in the West were fed for years by their ruling classes. These views are rigid and largely untrue.
The workers in the former Soviet Union actually had incentives and some managed to better themselves. If they worked well they were promoted, paid better, sent to all kinds of sanatoriums and spas and got lots of medals.
What you describe is not communism. "To each according to his contribution," is the opposite of what Marx said. I was addressing communism and Marxism, not the USSR, which others in this thread have said is not true communism. Thus your criticism of my opinion misses the mark.

Perhaps more importantly, I don't care what your opinion is.
Flash wrote:You also seem to forget . . .
You have no clue what is going on in my head, so please do not presume to tell me what I seem to forget or not.

Here is a more accurate version of your comment:
Flash could have wrote:You also did not mention . . .
Correct, I did not mention that particular detail. That fact all by itself does not tell you my motive for not mentioning it, so why bother trying to second guess what is going on in my head.

User avatar
The Sea is Mine
BANNED
Posts: 388
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:32 am

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by The Sea is Mine » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:43 pm

why not follow norways example? free health care, affordable education, nobody gets thrown out on the street, yet people are otherwise free to live as they please. what the hell is wrong with that?
Men's rights worldwide!

User avatar
OutOfBreath
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2296
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:38 pm
Custom Title: Persistent ponderer
Location: Norway

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:09 pm

The Sea is Mine wrote:why not follow norways example? free health care, affordable education, nobody gets thrown out on the street, yet people are otherwise free to live as they please. what the hell is wrong with that?
What the hell indeed. ;)

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

User avatar
fromthehills
True Skeptic
Posts: 10894
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:01 am
Location: Woostone

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by fromthehills » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:17 pm

I think cold weather makes a more amiable society.

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3073
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:52 pm

The Sea is Mine wrote:why not follow norways example? free health care, affordable education, nobody gets thrown out on the street, yet people are otherwise free to live as they please. what the hell is wrong with that?
Scotland beats Norway, free education, health care, care of the elderly, no one gets thrown out on the street and people are free to live as they please, even if that is on the street.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10898
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Location: has left the building

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:02 pm

If free health care for everyone and free education is a good idea, then why not also free food for everyone, free clothes, free housing, free transportation, free internet access, etc?

User avatar
OutOfBreath
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2296
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:38 pm
Custom Title: Persistent ponderer
Location: Norway

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:11 pm

xouper wrote:If free health care for everyone and free education is a good idea, then why not also free food for everyone, free clothes, free housing, free transportation, free internet access, etc?
Why not indeed. ;)
But when you got health care and education covered, along with some suitable welfare provisions for the ones falling out, the rest of that list does take care of itself. Besides, totalitarian state planning has a bad track record, so it works better with a restrained market capitalism where the state only butts in where necessary to ensure maximum welfare for all. (And maximum welfare does not mean putting everyone on welfare ;) )

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

User avatar
Austin Harper
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:22 pm
Custom Title: Rock Chalk Astrohawk
Location: Detroit

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:16 pm

xouper wrote:If free health care for everyone and free education is a good idea, then why not also free food for everyone, free clothes, free housing, free transportation, free internet access, etc?
Some people qualify for food stamps to pay for food.
Some people qualify for housing grants.
Some places do have free transportation (eg. Hasselt, Belgium).
Most libraries have free internet access.
I don't know of anything for clothes.
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10898
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Location: has left the building

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
xouper wrote:If free health care for everyone and free education is a good idea, then why not also free food for everyone, free clothes, free housing, free transportation, free internet access, etc?
Some people qualify for food stamps to pay for food.
Some people qualify for housing grants.
Some places do have free transportation (eg. Hasselt, Belgium).
Most libraries have free internet access.
I don't know of anything for clothes.
I meant free for everyone unconditionally, same as health care. If free health care for everyone is a good idea, then why not free housing for everyone, not just free for some people..

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10898
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Location: has left the building

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:23 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
xouper wrote:If free health care for everyone and free education is a good idea, then why not also free food for everyone, free clothes, free housing, free transportation, free internet access, etc?
Why not indeed. ;)
But when you got health care and education covered, along with some suitable welfare provisions for the ones falling out, the rest of that list does take care of itself.
Whatever reason given for not providing free food for everyone is the same reason for not providing free health care for everyone.
OutOfBreath wrote:Besides, totalitarian state planning has a bad track record,
Which is why it should not be involved with providing health care. Here in Canada, people complain incessantly about government incompetence, and yet this is the same government they want to run their health care. It boggles my mind.

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3073
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:25 pm

xouper wrote:If free health care for everyone and free education is a good idea, then why not also free food for everyone, free clothes, free housing, free transportation, free internet access, etc?
Because free here means free at the point of supply, it still has to be paid for.

Our welfare system does mean some people have been getting all of the above for free via benefits. The elderly get free transport passes, as well as not having to pay the TV licence. We all get free access to the internet in most libraries, as well as DVDs, CDs and of course books! Many of our museums are free.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
bigtim
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4088
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:04 pm
Custom Title: Skeptical Berserker
Location: Miðgarðr

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:28 pm

xouper wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:
xouper wrote:If free health care for everyone and free education is a good idea, then why not also free food for everyone, free clothes, free housing, free transportation, free internet access, etc?
Some people qualify for food stamps to pay for food.
Some people qualify for housing grants.
Some places do have free transportation (eg. Hasselt, Belgium).
Most libraries have free internet access.
I don't know of anything for clothes.
I meant free for everyone unconditionally, same as health care. If free health care for everyone is a good idea, then why not free housing for everyone, not just free for some people..
Sure, everything free. Just need folks to produce it. So you'd live in a 100% tax system I guess.... isn't there a word for that?
~
BigTim
"I'm not entirely convinced that ValHalla isn't real."

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10898
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Location: has left the building

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:31 pm

Nessie wrote:
xouper wrote:If free health care for everyone and free education is a good idea, then why not also free food for everyone, free clothes, free housing, free transportation, free internet access, etc?
Because free here means free at the point of supply, it still has to be paid for.
Yes I already knew that. I was using free in the same sense you are, meaning free at the point of supply.

Perhaps it was not clear that my question is a Socratic gimmick to get to the heart of the problem, not because I do not know the answer.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10898
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Location: has left the building

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:34 pm

bigtim wrote:
xouper wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:
xouper wrote:If free health care for everyone and free education is a good idea, then why not also free food for everyone, free clothes, free housing, free transportation, free internet access, etc?
Some people qualify for food stamps to pay for food.
Some people qualify for housing grants.
Some places do have free transportation (eg. Hasselt, Belgium).
Most libraries have free internet access.
I don't know of anything for clothes.
I meant free for everyone unconditionally, same as health care. If free health care for everyone is a good idea, then why not free housing for everyone, not just free for some people..
Sure, everything free. Just need folks to produce it. So you'd live in a 100% tax system I guess.... isn't there a word for that?
My point exactly. Free health care is a marxist concept, which it should already be obvious, I am against.

rickoshay85
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2219
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:37 pm

bigtim wrote:
xouper wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:
xouper wrote:If free health care for everyone and free education is a good idea, then why not also free food for everyone, free clothes, free housing, free transportation, free internet access, etc?
Some people qualify for food stamps to pay for food.
Some people qualify for housing grants.
Some places do have free transportation (eg. Hasselt, Belgium).
Most libraries have free internet access.
I don't know of anything for clothes.
I meant free for everyone unconditionally, same as health care. If free health care for everyone is a good idea, then why not free housing for everyone, not just free for some people..
Sure, everything free. Just need folks to produce it. So you'd live in a 100% tax system I guess.... isn't there a word for that?
Said with tongue in cheek I hope. No one can be that cynical...
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

User avatar
Austin Harper
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:22 pm
Custom Title: Rock Chalk Astrohawk
Location: Detroit

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:44 pm

I would say that everyone has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I would say that life requires air, food, water, clothing, and shelter. To sustain life, health care is required.

I would say that the government is doing its part already to make all of those things safe through regulations.
It doesn't need to supply air, but for people who need help getting food, water, (possibly clothing,) and shelter, it helps. In many countries, it helps with health care for those who need it. The difference is that everyone doesn't need health care all the time. Medical bills can be huge, and so people who can afford it have insurance. But insurance only works if healthy people are covered, too, or the insurance company wouldn't make any money. The point of a national health care system is that everyone is covered and everyone's taxes take the place of insurance premiums.
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3073
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:47 pm

So even if the Marxists have a good idea, it is bad?
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

rickoshay85
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2219
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:02 pm

Austin Harper wrote:I would say that everyone has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I would say that life requires air, food, water, clothing, and shelter. To sustain life, health care is required.

But insurance only works if healthy people are covered, too, or the insurance company wouldn't make any money. The point of a national health care system is that everyone is covered and everyone's taxes take the place of insurance premiums.
Good, now all we have to do is take the lawyers and politics out of the equation and require that all drugs have new, independent, long term double blind tests, definitely not by the company that sells them.
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

User avatar
Austin Harper
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:22 pm
Custom Title: Rock Chalk Astrohawk
Location: Detroit

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:05 pm

rickoshay85 wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:I would say that everyone has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I would say that life requires air, food, water, clothing, and shelter. To sustain life, health care is required.

But insurance only works if healthy people are covered, too, or the insurance company wouldn't make any money. The point of a national health care system is that everyone is covered and everyone's taxes take the place of insurance premiums.
Good, now all we have to do is take the lawyers and politics out of the equation and require that all drugs have new, independent, long term double blind tests, definitely not by the company that sells them.
I agree that all drugs should have independent double blind tests, but what is your point about lawyers and politicians?
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

rickoshay85
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2219
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:26 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
rickoshay85 wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:I would say that everyone has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I would say that life requires air, food, water, clothing, and shelter. To sustain life, health care is required.

But insurance only works if healthy people are covered, too, or the insurance company wouldn't make any money. The point of a national health care system is that everyone is covered and everyone's taxes take the place of insurance premiums.
Good, now all we have to do is take the lawyers and politics out of the equation and require that all drugs have new, independent, long term double blind tests, definitely not by the company that sells them.
I agree that all drugs should have independent double blind tests, but what is your point about lawyers and politicians?
Lawyers write the contracts on who is covered or not, taking the choice away from the doctors, and politicians are using it to discredit Obama. That's why they call it Obamacare.
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

User avatar
Austin Harper
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:22 pm
Custom Title: Rock Chalk Astrohawk
Location: Detroit

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:38 pm

rickoshay85 wrote:Lawyers write the contracts on who is covered or not, taking the choice away from the doctors, and politicians are using it to discredit Obama. That's why they call it Obamacare.
Lawyers don't decide how much care should cost or who should be covered. Statistics are used to figure out the likelihood of particular people having particular problems and rates are set accordingly. How does calling it Obamacare discredit Obama? He has even said, "I have no problem with people saying Obama cares. I do care. If the other side wants to be the folks who don't care? That's fine with me."
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

rickoshay85
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2219
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:44 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
rickoshay85 wrote:Lawyers write the contracts on who is covered or not, taking the choice away from the doctors, and politicians are using it to discredit Obama. That's why they call it Obamacare.
Lawyers don't decide how much care should cost or who should be covered. Statistics are used to figure out the likelihood of particular people having particular problems and rates are set accordingly. How does calling it Obamacare discredit Obama? He has even said, "I have no problem with people saying Obama cares. I do care. If the other side wants to be the folks who don't care? That's fine with me."
We seem to be on the same page... Howdy partner
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

User avatar
OutOfBreath
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2296
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:38 pm
Custom Title: Persistent ponderer
Location: Norway

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:45 pm

xouper wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:
xouper wrote:If free health care for everyone and free education is a good idea, then why not also free food for everyone, free clothes, free housing, free transportation, free internet access, etc?
Why not indeed. ;)
But when you got health care and education covered, along with some suitable welfare provisions for the ones falling out, the rest of that list does take care of itself.
Whatever reason given for not providing free food for everyone is the same reason for not providing free health care for everyone.
Which is why you have food stamps in the US, and why we have social benefits that kick in if you have no money.
OutOfBreath wrote:Besides, totalitarian state planning has a bad track record,
Which is why it should not be involved with providing health care. Here in Canada, people complain incessantly about government incompetence, and yet this is the same government they want to run their health care. It boggles my mind.
Find me a country in the world with actual universal healthcare where the majority (or even a large minority) says it does't want it. It depends on how you organize it, ofcourse, and there are more and less efficient ways to do it. I do not know the specifics of Canada other than knowing that your system is a sort of hybrid between the american and the european systems.

Anywho, it is very possible to have universal healthcare that works decently, and it is not a sinister step towards communism to have such a system. It's very usual, and for people like me that has grown up under such a system, it is mindboggling that someone would want something else.

Besides, parts of healthcare is like national defense. Either you have it or you don't. Epidemics don't check your insurance status before afflicting you. Public health is one of civilization's greatest achievements, and should be attended to whether people have money right now or not.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10898
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Location: has left the building

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:40 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
xouper wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:
xouper wrote:If free health care for everyone and free education is a good idea, then why not also free food for everyone, free clothes, free housing, free transportation, free internet access, etc?
Why not indeed. ;)
But when you got health care and education covered, along with some suitable welfare provisions for the ones falling out, the rest of that list does take care of itself.
Whatever reason given for not providing free food for everyone is the same reason for not providing free health care for everyone.
Which is why you have food stamps in the US,
Then why not have food stamps for everyone. If you argue that everyone should have free health care then why not also free food for everyone?
OutOfBreath wrote:
xouper wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:Besides, totalitarian state planning has a bad track record,
Which is why it should not be involved with providing health care. Here in Canada, people complain incessantly about government incompetence, and yet this is the same government they want to run their health care. It boggles my mind.
Find me a country in the world with actual universal healthcare where the majority (or even a large minority) says it does't want it.
If the majority said everyone must die by the age of 30, does that make it right? No. Argument ad populum is a fallacy for a reason. It's easy to vote for free stuff when it's the other guy who is paying.
OutOfBreath wrote:Anywho, it is very possible to have universal healthcare that works decently, and it is not a sinister step towards communism to have such a system.
Free health care is by definition marxism (or communism).
OutOfBreath wrote: It's very usual, and for people like me that has grown up under such a system, it is mindboggling that someone would want something else.
Likewise it is mind boggling to me that someone thinks they have a right to my labor to pay for someone else's problem, which is what free health care entails.
OutOfBreath wrote:Besides, parts of healthcare is like national defense. Either you have it or you don't. Epidemics don't check your insurance status before afflicting you. Public health is one of civilization's greatest achievements, and should be attended to whether people have money right now or not.
The same argument applies to food. Hunger does not check your insurance status either. Every argument you make for free health care also applies to food and housing. If free health care is such a good idea, then why not also free food and housing?

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10898
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Location: has left the building

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:48 pm

Austin Harper wrote:Lawyers don't decide how much care should cost or who should be covered.
They do in Canada. Or more specifically, it's the lawyers who get elected to public office who decide how much health care should cost and who gets covered.

For example, in British Columbia, the government sets the fees that dermatologists get paid and are the lowest in the country. Due to an increasing shortage of dermatologists, waiting lists are now up to a year to see a dermatologist. This is what happens when the government runs things.

User avatar
Flash
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6151
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:09 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Flash » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:51 pm

xouper wrote:
I meant free for everyone unconditionally, same as health care. If free health care for everyone is a good idea, then why not free housing for everyone, not just free for some people..
What a typical right wing BS based on the fallacy of The Excluded Middle. Either this or that, black or white, nothing in the middle.
As OutOfBreath rightly points out;
Anywho, it is very possible to have universal healthcare that works decently, and it is not a sinister step towards communism to have such a system.
xouper wrote:
My point exactly. Free health care is a marxist concept, which it should already be obvious, I am against.
What "free health care"? You don't seem to understand xouper that the so called "free health care" is actually a national or provincial health care insurance. I paid into ours, first directly and then through my taxes, for my entire life so that now I can use some of it without fear of being rejected because of a "pre-existing condition" or cold blooded greed of the private insurer.
My advise to you; it's a good idea to understand what one is talking about and not use rigid, doctrinaire labels. But then again... Disregard it, what's the use eh?
When I feel like exercising, I just lie down until the feeling goes away. Paul Terry

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10898
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Location: has left the building

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:18 pm

Flash wrote:
xouper wrote:I meant free for everyone unconditionally, same as health care. If free health care for everyone is a good idea, then why not free housing for everyone, not just free for some people..
What a typical right wing BS based on the fallacy of The Excluded Middle. Either this or that, black or white, nothing in the middle.
Every argument in favor of free health care for everyone also applies to free food for everyone. Every argument against free food for everyone also applies to health care. The only way to have a middle is to be inconsistent.
Flash wrote:As OutOfBreath rightly points out;
xouper wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:Anywho, it is very possible to have universal healthcare that works decently, and it is not a sinister step towards communism to have such a system.
My point exactly. Free health care is a marxist concept, which it should already be obvious, I am against.
What "free health care"?
I am using the term "free health care" the same way others have been using it here in this thread, including OutOfBreath, Sea is Mine, and Nessie. They mean free at the point of supply. If you have a problem with the way they use the term, complain to them, not me. I'm just trying to use the same jargon they are using in an attempt to avoid pointless semantic quibbles.
Flash wrote:You don't seem to understand xouper that the so called "free health care" is actually a national or provincial health care insurance. I paid into ours, first directly and then through my taxes, for my entire life . . .
I don't care if you prefer to call it "insurance", it is still a marxist system. "From each according to his ability and to each according to his need."
Flash wrote:My advise to you; it's a good idea to understand what one is talking about and not use rigid, doctrinaire labels. But then again... Disregard it, what's the use eh?
Right back at you.

User avatar
Austin Harper
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:22 pm
Custom Title: Rock Chalk Astrohawk
Location: Detroit

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:25 pm

xouper wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:
xouper wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:Besides, totalitarian state planning has a bad track record,
Which is why it should not be involved with providing health care. Here in Canada, people complain incessantly about government incompetence, and yet this is the same government they want to run their health care. It boggles my mind.
Find me a country in the world with actual universal healthcare where the majority (or even a large minority) says it does't want it.
If the majority said everyone must die by the age of 30, does that make it right? No. Argument ad populum is a fallacy for a reason. It's easy to vote for free stuff when it's the other guy who is paying.
Sorry, but that's how democracy works.
xouper wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:Anywho, it is very possible to have universal healthcare that works decently, and it is not a sinister step towards communism to have such a system.
Free health care is by definition marxism (or communism).
I think the point was that it is not a "sinister step" toward full-on communism.
xouper wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote: It's very usual, and for people like me that has grown up under such a system, it is mindboggling that someone would want something else.
Likewise it is mind boggling to me that someone thinks they have a right to my labor to pay for someone else's problem, which is what free health care entails.
That's exactly how health insurance already works, except not everyone is included.
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10898
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Location: has left the building

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:39 pm

Austin Harper wrote:I would say that everyone has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I would say that life requires air, food, water, clothing, and shelter. To sustain life, health care is required.
I agree that we all have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Are you also saying you have the right to take what does not belong to you with the excuse that you need it to sustain your life?
Austin Harper wrote:I would say that the government is doing its part already to make all of those things safe through regulations. It doesn't need to supply air, but for people who need help getting food, water, (possibly clothing,) and shelter, it helps. In many countries, it helps with health care for those who need it. The difference is that everyone doesn't need health care all the time. Medical bills can be huge, and so people who can afford it have insurance. But insurance only works if healthy people are covered, too, or the insurance company wouldn't make any money. The point of a national health care system is that everyone is covered and everyone's taxes take the place of insurance premiums.
Except for two crucial details. Unlike insurance premiums, taxes are based on ability to pay, which is a marxist concept. Why should I pay more than you for the same coverage? Secondly, under marxist health care, one does not have choices of insurance plans or even to self-insure.

Thirdly, under marxist health care, I am not allowed to buy better care even if I can afford it. In Canada, for example, many people go to the US to get health care they cannot get in Canada. If every country has the same kind of health care as Canada, that option disappears. If I can afford better health care than government offers, why should I be denied that?

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10898
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Location: has left the building

Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:54 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
xouper wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:
xouper wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:Besides, totalitarian state planning has a bad track record,
Which is why it should not be involved with providing health care. Here in Canada, people complain incessantly about government incompetence, and yet this is the same government they want to run their health care. It boggles my mind.
Find me a country in the world with actual universal healthcare where the majority (or even a large minority) says it does't want it.
If the majority said everyone must die by the age of 30, does that make it right? No. Argument ad populum is a fallacy for a reason. It's easy to vote for free stuff when it's the other guy who is paying.
Sorry, but that's how democracy works.
Yes, I know that's how democracy works. But that does not make it right. For example, the majority can vote away the rights of the minority. That's one of the main flaws in democracy, and that's why the US has the Bill of Rights, to limit what the majority can take away from the minority. For example, in the US, should white people be allowed to vote that black people have to sit at the back of the bus? Because, that's how democracy works, according to your argument.
Austin Harper wrote:
xouper wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:Anywho, it is very possible to have universal healthcare that works decently, and it is not a sinister step towards communism to have such a system.
Free health care is by definition marxism (or communism).
I think the point was that it is not a "sinister step" toward full-on communism.
And I am asking why not? If free health care for everyone is such a good idea, then why not free everything for everyone? If free everything for everyone is not a good idea, then why free anything? That is my point. How do you justify one free thing but not free everything?
Austin Harper wrote:
xouper wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote: It's very usual, and for people like me that has grown up under such a system, it is mindboggling that someone would want something else.
Likewise it is mind boggling to me that someone thinks they have a right to my labor to pay for someone else's problem, which is what free health care entails.
That's exactly how health insurance already works, except not everyone is included.
Not so. In the US, health insurance is not mandatory*. Also, in the US, health insurance does not charge according to ability to pay.



* Footnote: The recent health care law signed by Obama requires everyone to buy health insurance, but that has not yet gone into effect, and it has been ruled unconstitutional by several courts.