Government support is essential to life and liberty

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rickoshay85
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Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:06 pm

With no government money there would only be manufacturing for profit and very few buyers...

No Army, Navy, Airforce, NSA, FBI, FAA, FDA, SEC, NASA, Congress, politicians (including Tea party), police, fire departments, public schools, electric power, lights telephones, TVs, computers, radios, lights, AC, ports, beaches, freeways, streets, parks, sidewalks, street lights, bridges, sewers, sewer disposal, traffic control, highways, public services, libraries, judges, Supreme Court, all of Washington DC,
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Aztexan » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:17 pm

rickoshay85 wrote:
No... politicians (including Tea party),
That's something that has me wondering lately. Kind of like the idiotic statement: if we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?
My question is, if the Republican and especially the Tea party mantra is "less government", why the hell are there so many Republicans and Tea partiers?
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:35 pm

My question is, if the Republican and especially the Tea party mantra is "less government", why the hell are there so many Republicans and Tea partiers?

They want to cut ALL government projects, not realizing that they also are on the Gov payroll.
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:47 pm

We’d go back to what you saw in the 19th Century US. There would be manufacturing for profit (that’s all there is now by the way) and there would still be buyers. There would just be no regulation, no controls, and yet corporations would still exist.

Also, it’s a misnomer. The repubs and tea-baggers want “smaller government” but big military and police force and border patrol… which means big government. That’s why historically government has grown under republicans and not democrats.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Martin Brock » Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:37 pm

rickoshay85 wrote:With no government money there would only be manufacturing for profit and very few buyers...

No Army, Navy, Airforce, NSA, FBI, FAA, FDA, SEC, NASA, Congress, politicians (including Tea party), police, fire departments, public schools, electric power, lights telephones, TVs, computers, radios, lights, AC, ports, beaches, freeways, streets, parks, sidewalks, street lights, bridges, sewers, sewer disposal, traffic control, highways, public services, libraries, judges, Supreme Court, all of Washington DC,
With less government spending, producers exchange more of their produce with each other. At the turn of the 20th century, government spending in the U.S. (federal, state and local governments combined) was around five percent of GDP. Now, it's around 40%. By your reckoning, the shops in 1900 were full of unsold goods, because government wasn't buying enough. The idea is ridiculous.

Government spending can create public goods in principle, but much government spending does not. Paying people build things and then paying other people to ship these things overseas and blow them up destroying other things does not produce anything that you can consume. It consumes resource that could otherwise produce more things that you could consume.

"Tea Party" is sloganeering. Politicians and pundits love slogans, because they limit the discussion to a few, narrow alternatives, like Democratic Big Government vs. Republican Big Government. In reality, remnants of the Ron Paul campaign in '08 was the core of the "Tea Party" initially, and it did not champion a big military, police force and border patrol. Rand Paul is a "Tea Party" stalwart, and he's the loudest voice in the Senate for lower military spending.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rrichar911 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:04 pm

I supose there are many ways to rationalize bankrupting the nation, the above line of reasoning being only one of them.

The road to prosperty never has been to borrow all the money you can, spend it as fast as you can, and never will be in a universe where logic applies.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Martin Brock » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:20 pm

rrichar911 wrote:I supose there are many ways to rationalize bankrupting the nation, the above line of reasoning being only one of them.

The road to prosperty never has been to borrow all the money you can, spend it as fast as you can, and never will be in a universe where logic applies.
The nation is not bankrupt. The Federal government is bankrupt. The Federal government is not the nation.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:55 pm

Martin Brock wrote:
rrichar911 wrote:I supose there are many ways to rationalize bankrupting the nation, the above line of reasoning being only one of them.

The road to prosperty never has been to borrow all the money you can, spend it as fast as you can, and never will be in a universe where logic applies.
The nation is not bankrupt. The Federal government is bankrupt. The Federal government is not the nation.
The Federal Government isn't bankrupt (unless you're referring to definition #3, but that's another topic I think)... it just needs debt counselling...
dictionary.reference.com] wrote: bank·rupt
[bangk-ruhpt, -ruhpt]

noun
1. Law . a person who upon his or her own petition or that of his or her creditors is adjudged insolvent by a court and whose property is administered for and divided among his or her creditors under a bankruptcy law.

2. any insolvent debtor; a person unable to satisfy any just claims made upon him or her.

3. a person who is lacking in a particular thing or quality: a moral bankrupt.

adjective
4. Law . subject to or under legal process because of insolvency; insolvent.

5. at the end of one's resources; lacking (usually followed by of or in ): bankrupt of compassion; bankrupt in good manners.

6. pertaining to bankrupts or bankruptcy.

verb (used with object)
7. to make bankrupt: His embezzlement bankrupted the company.

Origin:
1525–35; < Medieval Latin banca rupta bank broken; replacing adaptations of Italian banca rota and French banqueroute in same sense
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:41 pm

The road to prosperty never has been to borrow all the money you can, spend it as fast as you can, and never will be in a universe where logic applies...

You either have enough money to start a business on your own, or you find a gullible investor, or you borrow it, and no matter how well you plan, your chances of being in business after one year is 5 percent. . Been there, and crashed three times.
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:22 pm

rickoshay85 wrote:With no government money there would only be manufacturing for profit and very few buyers...

No Army, Navy, Airforce, NSA, FBI, FAA, FDA, SEC, NASA, Congress, politicians (including Tea party), police, fire departments, public schools, electric power, lights telephones, TVs, computers, radios, lights, AC, ports, beaches, freeways, streets, parks, sidewalks, street lights, bridges, sewers, sewer disposal, traffic control, highways, public services, libraries, judges, Supreme Court, all of Washington DC,
I'm so old that I still believe that Thomas Edison invented the light bulb and that his company, General Eliectric, installed power grids. If I were in grade school now, I'd probably know the truth that Al Gore invented all that while he was a government Senator, just before he invented the internet. But beaches? I'd say I'm a little skeptical about that, but I hesitate to offend Landy.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:29 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:
rickoshay85 wrote:With no government money there would only be manufacturing for profit and very few buyers...

No Army, Navy, Airforce, NSA, FBI, FAA, FDA, SEC, NASA, Congress, politicians (including Tea party), police, fire departments, public schools, electric power, lights telephones, TVs, computers, radios, lights, AC, ports, beaches, freeways, streets, parks, sidewalks, street lights, bridges, sewers, sewer disposal, traffic control, highways, public services, libraries, judges, Supreme Court, all of Washington DC,
I'm so old that I still believe that Thomas Edison invented the light bulb and that his company, General Eliectric, installed power grids. If I were in grade school now, I'd probably know the truth that Al Gore invented all that while he was a government Senator, just before he invented the internet. But beaches? I'd say I'm a little skeptical about that, but I hesitate to offend Landy.
They may not have invented beaches, but they sure are sons of beaches. :mrgreen:
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:44 am

Well, what you can't do is pretend to have a welfare state (Medicare etc) and a ridiculously strong military, and at the same time expect that this cost nothing in taxes. Americans seem overall to want big government, but overall are not willing to pay for it.

So either the expectations towards government must go way down (Yes, granny won't get her meds! You can't attack countries you dont like.), or you have to suck it up and pay for it in taxes. The current deficit seems to be the result of ignoring that problem for way too long. (Don't fight several wars and give tax cuts at the same time you nincompoops.)

There is no such thing as a freee lunch. How the bill is divided, on the other hand, is up for debate. But less taxes, more medicare/military is stupid and irresponsible. After watching how american politics are still in denial, and use the opportunity to blackmail for pet policies, I really do love our own politicians. They are at least generally responsible and generally see that an increase in one place, needs to be covered by a tax or a decrease elsewhere.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:45 am

anonymoose wrote:The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by kennyc » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:31 am

rickoshay85 wrote:With no government money there would only be manufacturing for profit and very few buyers...

No Army, Navy, Airforce, NSA, FBI, FAA, FDA, SEC, NASA, Congress, politicians (including Tea party), police, fire departments, public schools, electric power, lights telephones, TVs, computers, radios, lights, AC, ports, beaches, freeways, streets, parks, sidewalks, street lights, bridges, sewers, sewer disposal, traffic control, highways, public services, libraries, judges, Supreme Court, all of Washington DC,

Not really. Life would just be different.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by JO 753 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:38 am

I think S&P did us a big favor.

Maybe even idiots will think its a bad idea to elect idiots now.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:45 pm

kennyc wrote:
rickoshay85 wrote:With no government money there would only be manufacturing for profit and very few buyers...

No Army, Navy, Airforce, NSA, FBI, FAA, FDA, SEC, NASA, Congress, politicians (including Tea party), police, fire departments, public schools, electric power, lights telephones, TVs, computers, radios, lights, AC, ports, beaches, freeways, streets, parks, sidewalks, street lights, bridges, sewers, sewer disposal, traffic control, highways, public services, libraries, judges, Supreme Court, all of Washington DC,

Not really. Life would just be different.
Simpler, for sure, probably be like it was in the 19 century, but many of us don't get along with horses, the only natural form of transportation, and are more intellecticual than the rough and tough survivors.
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by kennyc » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:28 pm

rickoshay85 wrote:
kennyc wrote:
rickoshay85 wrote:With no government money there would only be manufacturing for profit and very few buyers...

No Army, Navy, Airforce, NSA, FBI, FAA, FDA, SEC, NASA, Congress, politicians (including Tea party), police, fire departments, public schools, electric power, lights telephones, TVs, computers, radios, lights, AC, ports, beaches, freeways, streets, parks, sidewalks, street lights, bridges, sewers, sewer disposal, traffic control, highways, public services, libraries, judges, Supreme Court, all of Washington DC,

Not really. Life would just be different.
Simpler, for sure, probably be like it was in the 19 century, but many of us don't get along with horses, the only natural form of transportation, and are more intellecticual than the rough and tough survivors.
Thus evolution (as in the theory of..) would very much come into play. :D
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:35 pm

kennyc wrote:
rickoshay85 wrote:
kennyc wrote:
rickoshay85 wrote:With no government money there would only be manufacturing for profit and very few buyers...

No Army, Navy, Airforce, NSA, FBI, FAA, FDA, SEC, NASA, Congress, politicians (including Tea party), police, fire departments, public schools, electric power, lights telephones, TVs, computers, radios, lights, AC, ports, beaches, freeways, streets, parks, sidewalks, street lights, bridges, sewers, sewer disposal, traffic control, highways, public services, libraries, judges, Supreme Court, all of Washington DC,

Not really. Life would just be different.
Simpler, for sure, probably be like it was in the 19 century, but many of us don't get along with horses, the only natural form of transportation, and are more intellecticual than the rough and tough survivors.
Thus evolution (as in the theory of..) would very much come into play. :D
Some kind of change is always on the move, but it could take thousands of years to make a difference, of course there are always mutations but they don't interfere with the never-ending trend.
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by JO 753 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:09 pm

Mutationz are the trend. But its not never ending.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Bunyip » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:37 am

Essential in principle?.NO.

The oldest surviving culture, at around 70 thousand years, is that of the Australian aborigine.They are egalitarian and anarchic,with no kings,chiefs or even permanent spokespeople.They have a rich and sophisticated society, with a complex system of myths,religion,laws, and customs. Cultural beliefs and practices are decided and enforced by consensus. Penalties for law breaking (murder,rape) can be as extreme as death. Aborigines consider putting a human being in gaol unspeakably cruel and barbaric,

BUT Aborigines have a stone age culture with virtually no specialisation of labour as we know it AND are traditionally nomadic,living in small family groups,similar to the San people of South Africa.

.In our staggeringly diversified society, I think we need some extended form of authority we call 'government' . However,this question is far from resolved,with libertarians arguing governments should be drastically reduced in size and power, and anarchists arguing they should be abolished entirely.

There is little doubt in my mind the long term survival of the animal homo sapiens sapiens needs no government and no civilisations. We would probably survive much longer if our numbers were reduced by 99%,(leaving 70 million) but remained scattered all over the planet. OF COURSE,life would once again be "nasty and brutal and short" and very few of us would like it much.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by JO 753 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:42 pm

I think we hav to divert sum asteroidz first. Then we get to go back to sleep.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:48 pm

JO 753 wrote:I think we hav to divert sum asteroidz first. Then we get to go back to sleep.
Nah... They always burn out when they enter our atmosphere
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by JO 753 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:14 pm

2 rooferz in New York city stop spreding tar for a lunch break. As they sit on the ej uv the roof, munching their McDonaldz and slurping Miller Lite, a 100 megaton Russian ICBM flyz by.

"DANG! Thats a 100 megaton Russian ICBM!" yellz Dale.

"Dont worry. sez Billy, "Its gonna miss us by a mile."

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:45 am

JO 753 wrote:2 rooferz in New York city stop spreding tar for a lunch break. As they sit on the ej uv the roof, munching their McDonaldz and slurping Miller Lite, a 100 megaton Russian ICBM flyz by.

"DANG! Thats a 100 megaton Russian ICBM!" yellz Dale.

"Dont worry. sez Billy, "Its gonna miss us by a mile."


The SDI will protect us, or so Regan said, and I guess it did, beings we had no attacks since then.
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Datinsky » Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:47 pm

rickoshay85 wrote:With no government money there would only be manufacturing for profit and very few buyers...

No Army, Navy, Airforce, NSA, FBI, FAA, FDA, SEC, NASA, Congress, politicians (including Tea party), police, fire departments, public schools, electric power, lights telephones, TVs, computers, radios, lights, AC, ports, beaches, freeways, streets, parks, sidewalks, street lights, bridges, sewers, sewer disposal, traffic control, highways, public services, libraries, judges, Supreme Court, all of Washington DC,
Can you prove that we wouldn't have anything described above without government? Also, why are you mixing consumer goods like TV, or radios with government agencies? The next question would be, if these things didn't exist without government, is it possible we dont need them, and we might have something better?

Nothing but baseless assertions with no substance behind it.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:31 pm

Datinsky wrote:
rickoshay85 wrote:No Army, Navy, Airforce, NSA, FBI, FAA, FDA, SEC, NASA, Congress, politicians (including Tea party), police, fire departments, public schools, electric power, lights telephones, TVs, computers, radios, lights, AC, ports, beaches, freeways, streets, parks, sidewalks, street lights, bridges, sewers, sewer disposal, traffic control, highways, public services, libraries, judges, Supreme Court, all of Washington DC
Can you prove that we wouldn't have anything described above without government? Also, why are you mixing consumer goods like TV, or radios with government agencies? The next question would be, if these things didn't exist without government, is it possible we dont need them, and we might have something better?
Who do you think would be paying for everything for the military without a government? What authority would the NSA or FBI have to investigate anything? What authority would the FAA have to certify (or more importantly, withhold certification) aircraft or dictate flight paths? Government regulations are required because without government, no would would care if some company told them they couldn't broadcast at 104 MHz because another radio station was already broadcasting on that frequency. No one could prevent companies from dumping toxic materials wherever they wanted. No one could keep the food industry from shipping spoiled foods. Et cetera.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Datinsky » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:44 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Datinsky wrote:
rickoshay85 wrote:No Army, Navy, Airforce, NSA, FBI, FAA, FDA, SEC, NASA, Congress, politicians (including Tea party), police, fire departments, public schools, electric power, lights telephones, TVs, computers, radios, lights, AC, ports, beaches, freeways, streets, parks, sidewalks, street lights, bridges, sewers, sewer disposal, traffic control, highways, public services, libraries, judges, Supreme Court, all of Washington DC
Can you prove that we wouldn't have anything described above without government? Also, why are you mixing consumer goods like TV, or radios with government agencies? The next question would be, if these things didn't exist without government, is it possible we dont need them, and we might have something better?
Who do you think would be paying for everything for the military without a government? What authority would the NSA or FBI have to investigate anything? What authority would the FAA have to certify (or more importantly, withhold certification) aircraft or dictate flight paths? Government regulations are required because without government, no would would care if some company told them they couldn't broadcast at 104 MHz because another radio station was already broadcasting on that frequency. No one could prevent companies from dumping toxic materials wherever they wanted. No one could keep the food industry from shipping spoiled foods. Et cetera.
Thanks for your response, but all straw-men. At some point we had Zeus, now he is a myth. Do you think the past civilizations could assume a life without Zeus? Without Zeus we got jesus, or mohammed. Something always fills the void. You can only see with your eyes because it is something in-front of you, that's all. I bet you cant imagine life without a Department of Education, and without such we wouldn't have Education. The Department of Education was established by Jimmy Carter in 1979. Was there no education before that point?

No one would keep spoiled food from shipping??? Really? Ever heard of Consumer Reports? Let a company continue to have bad ratings on this site, or Zagat. Let consumers eat rotten spoiled food and let's see how long they stay in business. Would you buy spoiled food from someone?

Just curious, have you ever heard of Underwriters Laboratories, or UL for short? if not, check any electrical product you have in your house. There is no product sold in the US without a UL certification to make sure all the electrical components are certified and do not suffer serious breakdown. This is NOT a government agency and covers an enormous spectrum of your consumer goods. Your argument sounds like Obama saying our economy would be much worse without him. Oh Vey!!

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:11 pm

And do you know who pays UL to check the electronics? OSHA, an agency of United States Department of Labor. UL isn't checking products out of the goodness of their hearts.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:49 pm

Austin Harper wrote:And do you know who pays UL to check the electronics? OSHA, . . .
Pardon my intrusion here, but I have to ask for a citation for that. It's been my understanding that the product manufacturers pay, not the government. But I'm willing to be corrected if you can show OSHA pays the UL for certification of privately manufactured products.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:57 pm

While I'm here, here's a very minor point I'd like to ask about.
Austin Harper wrote:. . . What authority would the FAA have to certify (or more importantly, withhold certification) aircraft or dictate flight paths?
What do you mean by "dictate flight paths"?

Can I assume you know there are two categories of aircraft that the FAA does not certify? I used to own one of them. My airplane had no FAA certification whatsoever and yet I was fully legal flying it in Illinois.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:09 pm

xouper wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:And do you know who pays UL to check the electronics? OSHA, . . .
Pardon my intrusion here, but I have to ask for a citation for that. It's been my understanding that the product manufacturers pay, not the government. But I'm willing to be corrected if you can show OSHA pays the UL for certification of privately manufactured products.
Oops, I made a mistake. I've looked into it a bit more, and I was thinking of UL being on OSHA's Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories list. My apologies.
xouper wrote:While I'm here, here's a very minor point I'd like to ask about.
Austin Harper wrote:. . . What authority would the FAA have to certify (or more importantly, withhold certification) aircraft or dictate flight paths?
What do you mean by "dictate flight paths"?
Can I assume you know there are two categories of aircraft that the FAA does not certify? I used to own one of them. My airplane had no FAA certification whatsoever and yet I was fully legal flying it in Illinois.
Yes, I am aware of differing standards for certification and that not all planes are required to be certified. I was in this case referring primarily to FAR Parts 23 and 25 which define airworthiness standards for most planes (Part 23 for smaller planes and Part 25 for larger planes). Out of curiosity, which plane were you flying? Was it one of the planes on the FAA's current list of Light Sport Aircraft?
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by xouper » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:50 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
xouper wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:And do you know who pays UL to check the electronics? OSHA, . . .
Pardon my intrusion here, but I have to ask for a citation for that. It's been my understanding that the product manufacturers pay, not the government. But I'm willing to be corrected if you can show OSHA pays the UL for certification of privately manufactured products.
Oops, I made a mistake. I've looked into it a bit more, and I was thinking of UL being on OSHA's Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories list. My apologies.
No problem. Thanks for explaining.
Austin Harper wrote:Yes, I am aware of differing standards for certification and that not all planes are required to be certified. I was in this case referring primarily to FAR Parts 23 and 25 which define airworthiness standards for most planes (Part 23 for smaller planes and Part 25 for larger planes). Out of curiosity, which plane were you flying?
FAR Part 103. Almost exactly like this one.

Prior to that I logged some of my time in N8222U before it got sold and painted an ugly yellow. I suspect the current owner has no clue I used that airplane for my first FAR Part 105 operation in 1975.
Austin Harper wrote:. . . What authority would the FAA have to certify (or more importantly, withhold certification) aircraft or dictate flight paths?
What do you mean by "dictate flight paths"? Not that it matters to your main argument, I am just curious what you meant. Sorry for the derailment.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:58 pm

xouper wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:. . . What authority would the FAA have to certify (or more importantly, withhold certification) aircraft or dictate flight paths?
What do you mean by "dictate flight paths"? Not that it matters to your main argument, I am just curious what you meant. Sorry for the derailment.
I mean the FAA's management of air traffic control (sorry for that confusing wording) as described in JO 7110.65T.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Datinsky » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:03 am

The FAA regulates the airways in the United States. How in the world (no pun) do all these airplanes fly from the US to any foreign country? The FAA isn't regulating these locations?

It is hard to argue with anyone that believes intrinsically that government can do what private industry can not. I cant tell you what an actual system would look like if privately run, but I can tell you rational people would cooperate to make it happen. Would it look exactly like the FAA? Not sure, but so what.

You have postulated a slippery slope. If government can do anything, apparently they can do everything, so why argue, simply accept.

Btw, this may be off topic, but in the private sector businesses fail. This is a good thing as it shows what is viable and what isn't. Government has a mandate, and whatever they do cant fail so they continue to prop unnecessary operations because they don't want to reduce their rolls. There is no market mechanism to show where something is not needed anymore. Do you really think the SEC is doing a good job? No one got fired after the Madoff incident, or Enron, which were supposedly being regulated by the SEC.

While we are at it, do you think there would be this kind of private spending:
Government Programs:
$1.2 million to study the breeding habits of the woodchuck.
$150,000 to study the Hatfield-McCoy feud.
$1 million to study why people don't ride bikes to work.
$219,000 to teach college students how to watch television.

You want to tackle government education? The list of education programs that fail, whose unintended consequences exacerbate problems, simply boggles the mind. Take the recently expanded Title I. After spending $125 billion … over 25 years, we have virtually nothing to show for it. Fewer than a third of fourth-graders can read at grade level.

On, and on, and on it goes.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:11 am

I'm enjoying this thread because of where it is heading. This thread is independently about to reinvent "Coase Economic Theory" from 1937.
Datinsky wrote: Let a company continue to have bad ratings on this site, or Zagat. Let consumers eat rotten spoiled food and let's see how long they stay in business. Would you buy spoiled food from someone?
Austin Harper wrote: Government regulations are required because without government, no would would care if some company told them they couldn't broadcast at 104 MHz because another radio station was already broadcasting on that frequency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Coase developed his theorem when considering the regulation of radio frequencies. Competing radio stations could use the same frequencies and would therefore interfere with each others' broadcasts. The problem faced by regulators was how to eliminate interference and allocate frequencies to radio stations efficiently. What Coase proposed in 1959 was that as long as property rights in these frequencies were well defined, it ultimately did not matter if adjacent radio stations interfered with each other by broadcasting in the same frequency band. Furthermore, it did not matter to whom the property rights were granted. His reasoning was that the station able to reap the higher economic gain from broadcasting would have an incentive to pay the other station not to interfere.

However Coase Economic theory requires proprietorship which requires government. I suggest that we are trying to mix too many different concepts into one mega theory in this thread, which we don't need to do.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by JO 753 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:33 am

An eazy rebuttal to gummit boondoglery, Dat, iz that private companyz also hav their boondoglz. The bigger the company, the bigger the boondogl.

I think that going by plain size - the US economy = 14 trillion, Unkle Skam = 1.5 trillion, that the total boondoglz conducted by private interests iz going to be several timez bigger and that therez a greater level and variety uv appallingly stoooopid stuff.

Youre going to hav to find a different angl.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Datinsky » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:39 am

JO 753 wrote:An eazy rebuttal to gummit boondoglery, Dat, iz that private companyz also hav their boondoglz. The bigger the company, the bigger the boondogl.

I think that going by plain size - the US economy = 14 trillion, Unkle Skam = 1.5 trillion, that the total boondoglz conducted by private interests iz going to be several timez bigger and that therez a greater level and variety uv appallingly stoooopid stuff.

Youre going to hav to find a different angl.
JO,

Uncle Sam $1.5 trillion....Really? Have you looked at Obamas last budget? It was $3.6 trillion. Also, government spending is part of the $14 trillion of GDP.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by The Sea is Mine » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:51 am

Bunyip wrote:Essential in principle?.NO.

The oldest surviving culture, at around 70 thousand years, is that of the Australian aborigine.They are egalitarian and anarchic,with no kings,chiefs or even permanent spokespeople.They have a rich and sophisticated society, with a complex system of myths,religion,laws, and customs. Cultural beliefs and practices are decided and enforced by consensus. Penalties for law breaking (murder,rape) can be as extreme as death. Aborigines consider putting a human being in gaol unspeakably cruel and barbaric,

BUT Aborigines have a stone age culture with virtually no specialisation of labour as we know it AND are traditionally nomadic,living in small family groups,similar to the San people of South Africa.

.In our staggeringly diversified society, I think we need some extended form of authority we call 'government' . However,this question is far from resolved,with libertarians arguing governments should be drastically reduced in size and power, and anarchists arguing they should be abolished entirely.

There is little doubt in my mind the long term survival of the animal homo sapiens sapiens needs no government and no civilisations. We would probably survive much longer if our numbers were reduced by 99%,(leaving 70 million) but remained scattered all over the planet. OF COURSE,life would once again be "nasty and brutal and short" and very few of us would like it much.
also, Aboriginees have some of the highest rates of alcoholism, child abuse and suicide in the world. harldly a model society.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by JO 753 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:47 am

OK, Dat, but the basic idea still standz.

You mite recall sumthing about a problem with the world economy 3 yearz ago? Sumthing about less regulation and lax enforcement leading to private companyz getting to do wut they want.

There wuz sum sorta spill I vaguely recall last year, also a rezult uv private concernz buying the agency that wuz suppozed to be overseeing them.

A few examplez. Maybe you can find more.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Datinsky » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:52 pm

JO 753 wrote:OK, Dat, but the basic idea still standz.

You mite recall sumthing about a problem with the world economy 3 yearz ago? Sumthing about less regulation and lax enforcement leading to private companyz getting to do wut they want.

There wuz sum sorta spill I vaguely recall last year, also a rezult uv private concernz buying the agency that wuz suppozed to be overseeing them.

A few examplez. Maybe you can find more.
Correct me if I am wrong, but are you trying to argue that with full government oversight, and regulation, accidents, such as the Deep Horizon, wouldn't have happened? Are you saying that because of the comprehensive SEC oversight the Madoff incident DIDN'T happen?