Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:03 am

Ha, ha.........more like: "I'll have another round......hic, hic."
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:19 am

I suppose it's not too far off to discuss a family quarrel in this thread. I feel exactly as I did when I learned that my aunt's husband had been shtupping her sister, who was also my aunt, of course. (This led to a certain estrangement between the two sisters, as you may imagine.)

Risking the wrath of football hooligans, I'll note a possible explanation for the incident: The tourists were from Liverpool. I well remember a day back in 1989, when, living in Hertfordshire, we set out for a drive to the north and came across caravans full of football fans headed to Liverpool for a match. The next day, the shocked headlines were that 194 people had been crushed to death by a mob of drunken louts who cared only about getting into the stadium when there were not enough entrances. The Liverpudlians felt entitled to a great deal of sympathy for this tragedy, even though to the rest of the world, it was obvious that the guilty parties were Liverpool fans. OK, time to hide behind anonymity for my own safety.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:01 am

Great Story.

I'll wait for chapter two where you explain how a football crush in Liverpool lead to your Uncle in Law shtupping your Mom's two sisters......and why did he stop?

I thought scrum meant something totally different.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:12 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:51 am
The major fuglemen of the American left appear not to share your sanguine view of a no-deal Brexit, Poodle. I remain, as always, neutral and undecided.

Here's a sample. You can read the full story at the link.
You’d think such a resounding defeat would kill off the deal, forcing May to reach out across Parliament and consider other options. But no, this is a zombie deal—the Chucky doll of Brexit deals. In the days since May’s humiliating defeat, we have learned that her Plan B is to try to rally support (again) among her own MPs by asking the EU (again) to amend bits of the deal that they have already said, in every possible way, that they will not and cannot amend. This delusional behavior is being described by Conservative MPs as “one more heave.”
Not sanguine so much as fatalistic, UoG - it's going to happen, so I think we have to make the best job of it we can. It's worth bearing in mind that Theresa May's deal would probably have passed through Parliament had it NOT contained the backstop arrangement which was inserted at the insistence of the EU. There is a British saying - "Biting off your nose to spite your face" - which perfectly describes the EU's actions in this case. I do not believe that any country in the entire world would surrender their own sovereignty voluntarily in such a behindhand scenario.
Where May really is going wrong is in flogging the dead horse and so wasting time, although Liam Fox's activities paint a slightly different picture. There are also (and have been for some time) indications that the EU itself is shipping water at an alarming rate and it may be wise to take the rat's position before it sinks. Watch that space.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:27 am

Here in the colonies, I've heard the expression "Cutting off your nose to spite your face." I'll assume it means the same thing: causing yourself more damage than an issue is worth? Seems to me the EU's position is "totally reasonable", not cutting off or biting its nose, and is one simply in opposition to the UK. Now, they might be right or wrong about their position, but its clear to me the EU does not want to set a precedent that its lesser member states can start cherry picking the obligations to maximize their positions in oppositie or harm to the EU. Again, it could be right or wrong, but its reasonable for the EU to decide to PUNISH any member state that wanst to Exit so as to avoid encouraging the other members to do so as well.

In short.........in ways I have no notion of.........I would expect even more hurt to be applied after the Brexit........just to bring the message home to the other members.

"Your either part of the EU...........or not." Seems simple and straight forward to me.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:28 am

I'm watching the Euro. It will sink before the EU does. It's the canary in the coal mine. Britain at least had the good sense to retain sterling as its currency. When/if the Euro falls apart and countries once again start issuing escudos and lira and francs and drachmai, there will be considerable chaos, and Britain will be well out of it, not tied to these countries and free of any EU restraints on the deals it can make with them. So, I'm starting to think like Poodle here. While the optimum would be to strengthen the EU (but not the bureaucrats in Brussels), there is a potential upside to Brexit.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:31 am

There, bobbo, you really have hit a nail on the head. I'm not sure if you meant it or not, but " ... EU does not want to set a precedent that its lesser member states ..." could tell a story. The EU is not (yet) a state under any definition of the word. When the UK joined, it wasn't even the EU. It was the European Economic Community and, purportedly, had no political arm or aims. It is the movement towards statehood (and a very strange one headed by its civil service) that soured the relationship it had with its members, and that souring is not restricted to the UK alone. Greece, Italy, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia and, I believe, Portugal, are all voicing concerns. That's a lot of discontent for a few 'lesser' member states.
Since the UK stated its intent to leave, the EU Commission has been much more open about its political intentions, and both France and Germany have openly discussed their potential role as the 'axis' (a term I find both distasteful and worrying) of the future EU.
A continent-wide free trade organisation was (and remains) an attractive proposition. A continent-wide political behemoth is far from that.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:41 am

Apropos of UoG's posting ...

https://www.weeklystandard.com/dominic- ... ro-survive

,,,and more. I don't know how old this one is, but ...

https://internationalman.com/articles/d ... of-the-eu/

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Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:21 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:28 am
I'm watching the Euro. It will sink before the EU does. It's the canary in the coal mine. Britain at least had the good sense to retain sterling as its currency. When/if the Euro falls apart and countries once again start issuing escudos and lira and francs and drachmai, there will be considerable chaos, and Britain will be well out of it, not tied to these countries and free of any EU restraints on the deals it can make with them. So, I'm starting to think like Poodle here. While the optimum would be to strengthen the EU (but not the bureaucrats in Brussels), there is a potential upside to Brexit.
I disagree about the Euro.
If it looks like the Euro will fall apart, debt in Euro will revert to debt in local currency, which, admittedly, will be a {!#%@}-show to do. But unless there is some agreement o haircut/cancel the debt, Germany and other strong economies will be left to pay the debt back in their currencies, which will be much stronger compared to the mentioned Drachma or Lira.
Shortly before a Euro-cancellation, I would expect the value to go up.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:57 pm

Poodle wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:41 am
Apropos of UoG's posting ...

https://www.weeklystandard.com/dominic- ... ro-survive

,,,and more. I don't know how old this one is, but ...

https://internationalman.com/articles/d ... of-the-eu/
Amazing how quickly things change, especially for Macron since the article by green appeared nine months ago. Casey obviously doesn't like the EU, and I suspect that influences his opinion that it is about to collapse, and take the Euro down with it.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:02 pm

Poodle wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:31 am
There, bobbo, you really have hit a nail on the head. I'm not sure if you meant it or not, but "
Ouch!!!! THAT goes right to my heart, brain, ego, gonads, self image. What the alternative? Pure Luck??? Ha, ha..........contra Poodle, I take ever word you post as well thought out and meaning every nuance it contains. Oops........thats a double ouch. I hate it when I do that................
Poodle wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:31 am
The EU is not (yet) a state under any definition of the word.
Well, its a "State of Affairs".......also a Nascent State? Along the lines of when is a zygote a human? I say from the moment of conception as its all there.......just needs nothing but time. But thats a metaphor and an analogy...and actually doesn't apply as Affairs and Nascent can go either way and needs more than just time. But: its definitional: AS EVERYTHING IS. More Luck?...........Hubris..............random motion???? Ha, ha........just dithering and word play. /// It is fun to note the "rought beginnings" of any significant CONFEDERATE of local interests. slowly evolves into a Nation State or 2-3-4-5 of them. Wars of Conquest.....stalemate, borders drawn. Lots of options. I suspect EVEN WITH RUSSIA GAINING GROUND, and China I think preparing its ducks.............its oh so "civilized" to think we have advanced beyond raw conquest?........................The monkey in me says: don't chimp so. EU more binding and restrictive than right now.......an obvious alternative..............
Poodle wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:31 am
It was the European Economic Community and, purportedly, had no political arm or aims.
Ha, ha...........yeah.......we told our Natives it was a Peace Treaty: forever and ever.
Poodle wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:31 am
It is the movement towards statehood (and a very strange one headed by its civil service) that soured the relationship it had with its members, and that souring is not restricted to the UK alone. Greece, Italy, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia and, I believe, Portugal, are all voicing concerns. That's a lot of discontent for a few 'lesser' member states.
I agree completely they are shown to be too far out over their skiis. Takes "real" leadership.....not often found in a bureaucracy. External threats often help nation gametes find their common interests............
Poodle wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:31 am
Since the UK stated its intent to leave, the EU Commission has been much more open about its political intentions, and both France and Germany have openly discussed their potential role as the 'axis' (a term I find both distasteful and worrying) of the future EU.
A continent-wide free trade organisation was (and remains) an attractive proposition. A continent-wide political behemoth is far from that.
yeap, I agree. All kinds of Alt-History can be applied now or in the future. "If only we had................" writes a lot of history. I'm in mind of the Protestant Reformation. If the Dominant Org is not open to change.........you get splintering. Should Luther have stayed in and tried more to reform: or did he see Gods handwriting on his wall? Only rough comparison between Reformation and EU.........broad brush strokes only............but...........would a "real" UK leader lead his people out of the desert.....or Get Ramses to lighten up a bit?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:00 pm

Well, bobbo, it seems the American Left is taking your side in this debate, as in this article.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:47 pm

Thanks Upton. I disdain labels but if the choice was only american or non-American I'd go american. And left over Right or neutral. BUT==>what I am is really quite simple: FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM. In this case: let PEOPLE VOTE.

There is never a good reason not to.............ha, ha........as evidenced many times in this very forum. Yes.............FREEEEEEEEEEDOM. What a concept.

Just Look.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:00 am

Oh wow!!! There's nothing like blatant political bias in that article you found, UoG :shock: :D
"The Leave campaign—a torrent of lies and online propaganda funded by friends of Trump, twice ruled in breach of campaign-spending laws—weaponized England’s xenophobic, postimperial malaise in order to blame “free movement” for all the ills that globalization, deregulation, austerity, and regional neglect have visited on the country’s citizens: hollowed-out towns with boarded-up shops and homeless people in the doorways; failing schools and hospitals; no work and nothing to do".

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:25 pm

Poodle wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:00 am
Oh wow!!! There's nothing like blatant political bias in that article you found, UoG :shock: :D
"The Leave campaign—a torrent of lies and online propaganda funded by friends of Trump, twice ruled in breach of campaign-spending laws—weaponized England’s xenophobic, postimperial malaise in order to blame “free movement” for all the ills that globalization, deregulation, austerity, and regional neglect have visited on the country’s citizens: hollowed-out towns with boarded-up shops and homeless people in the doorways; failing schools and hospitals; no work and nothing to do".
As I said, it's a left-wing publication. It reminds me greatly of the view that I have heard from my Russian friends, who are childishly naïve about politics. One of them, who happens to be married to a Greek woman, described for me how really successfully the Greeks were getting along before they joined the EU, and how the EU ruthlessly destroyed the cottage industries that were the mainstay of the average Greek. Well, I'm doubtful, but never having been to Greece, I can't say. What does seem likely, though, is that the Greeks were enticed by the promise of easy wealth when they joined the EU. But the Germans were not prepared to prop up the rest of Europe forever. Sooner or later, the carousel ride was bound to come to an end, and the music would stop. As it has now done.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:15 pm

Ha, ha............."extreme bias." Well, in the poetry of political discourse: more true than false? IOW: Just Look at the "import" of the issues raised. More a counterpoint to the extreme bias of the other side RATHER THAN the always erroneous comaprison to absolute truth.

Its really: "empty shops and devastation" vs "milk and honey pouring forth on streets of golden cobblestones." Which is "more true?" and if the question is deemed irrelevant or silly then "just look at the import of the issues raised." Its always important to recognize the negatives inherent in any generally positive program...........and vice versa. Its my judgment that the negatives are more often more impactful to peoples lives than the positives...........but that may indeed be my bias: each issue to stand on its own.

Thing is: EVERY PROGRAM OR IDEA is presented and promoted for the good that it desires...........but..........what aren't you telling us?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:52 pm

To be frank, bobbo, I haven't seen much sign of either of the political extremes. It's all been very British - being two points off the centre is counted as extremism.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:34 pm

Oh...........sorry Poodle. That is my interpretation of ".....a torrent of lies and online propaganda funded by friends of Trump, twice ruled in breach of campaign-spending laws—weaponized England’s xenophobic, postimperial malaise in order to blame “free movement” for all the ills that globalization, deregulation, austerity, and regional neglect have visited on the country’s citizens: hollowed-out towns with boarded-up shops and homeless people in the doorways; failing schools and hospitals; no work and nothing to do"." ////// Is this to be called British understatement then.

torrent of lies

weaponized

xenophonic

hollowed-out towns

boarded up shops

homeless people

failing schools and hospitals

no work

What does it take to be extreme in the UK?................Funny hats?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:11 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:34 pm
Oh...........sorry Poodle. That is my interpretation of ".....a torrent of lies and online propaganda funded by friends of Trump, twice ruled in breach of campaign-spending laws—weaponized England’s xenophobic, postimperial malaise in order to blame “free movement” for all the ills that globalization, deregulation, austerity, and regional neglect have visited on the country’s citizens: hollowed-out towns with boarded-up shops and homeless people in the doorways; failing schools and hospitals; no work and nothing to do"." ////// Is this to be called British understatement then.

torrent of lies

weaponized

xenophonic

hollowed-out towns

boarded up shops

homeless people

failing schools and hospitals

no work

What does it take to be extreme in the UK?................Funny hats?
For what it's worth, I believe this author is British, but definitely an outlier in terms of foam emerging from his mouth.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:10 pm

Bobbo - just because someone writes a whole heap of somewhat weedy invective doesn't make it in any way representative. But, you know, two sides to every story, good and bad in everything we do, tossing a coin is cool, never actually making up your mind is okayish, ifs and buts abound, there's a whole lotta luvvin going on, it takes two to tango, it takes four to quadrille, it never rains but it pours, ifs and buts all round, everyone's opinion is fine.
Except at some point, some people need to make up their minds, The UK has gone past that very point and it's no good carrying on and sitting squarely on the nearest convenient fence. The vote was taken two years ago. Exactly how democratic do you think a democracy should be?

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:34 pm

Poodle wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:10 pm
Exactly how democratic do you think a democracy should be?
When the facts of the matter change.

In my view the wording of the first Brexit was without context. I'll say again its like asking: "Do you want to do away with all taxes?" and the answer would be a resounding NO. But if you ask the same question WITH context: "Do you want to do away with all taxes and lose all social safety net services, National Military, Social Security, Border Patrol........ie: the entire gamet of government services." I assume the the very same question WITH CONTEXT would provide the opposite answer.

Same with Brexit: Do you want a Hard Brexit with a hard EU Border between the Irelands and an EU hostile to UK economic interests? //// Same question........with just a bit of context.

It makes a difference.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:08 pm

Two things, bobbo ...
1. The Irish border has been open to people (not goods) since 1923. It has never been an 'ordinary' border.
2. I completely fail to see how the referendum question could have been any more specific. It simply asked whether people wanted to be in or out of the EU and, of course, no other criteria could be applied as no other criteria had been mooted at the time. I would imagine that it's very similar to a presidential election in the USA.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:10 pm

Well Poodle:

1. The Hard (EU) Border will change the status quo..........thats why its an obstacle to Brexit. I don't know what you mean to highlight by your comment.

2. Third time: and I'll use different words again to highlight the issue hoping some magic combo will stick: The simple short statement in the REF was ON ITS FACE a question so vague, ungrounded, and lacking context or consequences so as to NOT COMPRISE a real question. It was as immediately confirmed by man in the street interviews a question calling forth the attitudes and emotions of people rather than a CONSIDERED opinion. Simple questions for simple issues. Complex questions for complex issues. Rarely do crossovers provide any valid result.

What do you THINK (thats calling for a complex question) would happen with the following REF: "Would you like your taxes lowered?" Now...based on the answer to that REF, do you THINK taxes "should be" lowered? The Brexit REF was the same kind of set-up. In short: a CON JOB. A call for the expression of emotions and not for any thinking at all...........which is exactly what you got.

I'll say again: ON ITS FACE YOUR BREXIT WAS A CON JOB. YouK don't use the REF often.........and it shows. Here's a link to California REF to show you what years of practice and over reliance on the REF process SHOULD look like: http://www.voterguide.sos.ca.gov/propositions/1/

See the difference? Thinking vs Emotions. Details and facts vs slobbering emotions.

New 3: You've asked before about how much democracy is warranted now that Brexit was voted on two years ago. I've said what is generically valid: when facts/context change as when people are presented with more facts and consequences about what Brexiting means. But there is another line of answers which is that in USA the House Members are actually elected every two years because that is a time frame in which to "catch the druthers of the voting public." Also, I believe in the UK you can have votes of confidence as often as you wish? Why wouldn't Brexit be at least as subject to the popular will as to whether or not to terminate the tenancy of the Prime Minister?

You are obviously posting as an advocate. Why you want to feign otherwise is........not needed. As stated: I don't care what the outcome vote of first or second Brexit is..........as for all issues, they can be discussed more philosophically where Brexit is just one of many examples providing touch points, or it can be discussed in the gutter where folks have unstated vested interests.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:36 pm

Jeez, bobbo, you can come up with some BS when you try hard :D :D . Here are some ordinary questions for you ...
Do you want President A or President B?
Do you want to join the Masons or not?
Do you prefer coffee or tea?
Do you like your job or would you rather do something else?
Do you like this beer or would you rather have that beer?
Binary choices, see? That's what you need when you're going to count the answers, Yes or No. Anything else involves opinion amongst the vote counters.

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Re: Brexit

Post by landrew » Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:26 pm

The doctors weigh in:

Physicians were unable to reach a consensus: Should Brexit take place? The Allergists were in favor of scratching it, but the Dermatologists advised not to make any rash moves. The Gastroenterologists had sort of a gut feeling about it, but the Neurologists thought the Brexiters had a lot of nerve. Meanwhile, Obstetricians felt certain everyone was laboring under a misconception, while the Ophthalmologists considered the idea shortsighted. Pathologists yelled, "Over my dead body!" while the Pediatricians said, "Oh, grow up!" The Psychiatrists thought the whole idea was madness, while the Radiologists could see right through it. Surgeons decided to wash their hands of the whole thing and the Internists claimed it would indeed be a bitter pill to swallow. The Plastic Surgeons opined that May’s proposal would "put a whole new face on the matter." The Podiatrists thought it was a step forward, but the Urologists were pissed off at the whole idea. Anesthesiologists though it was all a gas, and those lofty Cardiologists didn't have the heart to say no. In the end, the Proctologists won out, leaving the entire decision up to the a$$holes in Parliament.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:21 pm

I'm stealing that ...

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Re: Brexit

Post by landrew » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:24 pm

Poodle wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:21 pm
I'm stealing that ...
Why not? I stole it from an email.
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:10 pm

Jeez, Poodle, you can come up with some binary questions not demonstrating the CON JOB the Brexit REF was at all as if all binary questions were the same.

Now.........just why would you do that?
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:24 pm

Sounds like the older joke of the heart and the brain arguing who was the Boss of the Body...........until the (distal end of the alimentary canal) shut down.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:23 am

But back to Brexit ...
Even Boris Johnson, the Arch-Brexiteer in Chief, has admitted that May's deal would fly through IF the Irish backstop was removed from the agreement. It has been demonstrated that there is a technological solution to the management of goods crossing the border, and there will, in any case, be free passage of people (as I said to bobbo, that's the way it's been since 1923 and the EU will not be allowed to destroy that arrangement).
The cynical side of me suspects that the much-vaunted £39 billion (which the EU does NOT get in the event of a no-deal) may be used as a sweetener for an open border. The fact that it would also demonstrate that the whole border issue has been a scam is beside the point.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:28 am

And a special posting for bobbo ...
OK - let's see YOU come up with the question you think should have been asked at the referendum. It has to be short enough to fit on a single sheet of paper together with the tick-box part, and it has to be unambiguous, and it has to be a yes/no answer.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:22 pm

thanks poodle. Its not the question itself but rather the context in which it is presented, as in: no context at all. I do hope you note "the element" of humor in my message to you: "all politics is a con job." Even when righteous....still a con job. Gubment is like that because its not just one person's opinion but rather an opinion/VOTE that is going to be applied against everyone else. People have "interests" that go against other peoples interests. There are PROS and CONS to every idea/opinion/vote/law that there is. NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.....some are hurt, others are helped. Thats rarely recognized and issues are discussed as if they are all one way or the other: ie, each side, every side trying to con the other.

That as prologue to every time I post: I would keep the prime question just as it is, then follow the format of the Ca REF and provide some context as to the Pros and cons of the vote one way or the other. This is an attempt to get people to THINK about what is in their best interest/the country's best interest rather than just providing an opportunity to emotionally act out.

That said, the rest is just an exercise to go through the mountains of discussion and propaganda that is available and pick and choose the pro and con arguments and facts to list for the voters consideration.

I know you agree................
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Re: Brexit

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:05 pm

Poodle wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:28 am
And a special posting for bobbo ...
OK - let's see YOU come up with the question you think should have been asked at the referendum. It has to be short enough to fit on a single sheet of paper together with the tick-box part, and it has to be unambiguous, and it has to be a yes/no answer.
I'll bite:

The question should have been:

Do you want some governing body to {!#%@} you over?

Because, yes or no, some governing body is going to {!#%@} you over.
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:12 pm

Ha, ha..........more cynical than my own offering, just not as verbose.

.....................I have a warm fuzzy feeling.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:43 pm

Hold on, bobbo - Oleg didn't specify WHICH governing body.
In less important news, Mrs. May has put a three-line whip on the amendment to her previous bill calling for “alternative arrangements” to a backstop for the Irish border. A three-line whip (so called because the relevant text is underlined three times) means, in a nutshell, "... vote for this or you are in all kinds of {!#%@}". It is meant to indicate to the EU, yet again, that there is no deal going to happen with the Irish backstop in place.
On the sidelines, we are now being warned of extreme food shortages should a no-deal Brexit go ahead. I'll post my address later for emergency parcels. Please give generously.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:12 am

Poodle wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:43 pm
Hold on, bobbo - Oleg didn't specify WHICH governing body.
I think Oleg did. I know he will disagree if I'm wrong, but he CLEARLY MEANT: all/any of them including EU or UK now or pre/during/post Brexit. Geez Poodle: you really don't get where the CON is do you? I don't think you deserve any of the food I don't want to eat.
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Re: Brexit

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:51 am

If ever there was a referendum that had lose - lose written all over it. . .

Mind you, the fallout from the vote has, I think, made visible problems in both the UK and the EU democracies. The referendum did not create those problems.

Time will tell.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:48 am

Poodle wrote: It has been demonstrated that there is a technological solution to the management of goods crossing the border,
Unemployed Irish leprechauns will stand on the containers that require UK import tax to be paid. :D

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:58 am

Ah - hold your horses. When I said above that Theresa May had a new proposal to put to the EU, I was being a little inaccurate. It appears that what the bill will say after the application of her three-line whip to coerce her MPs into agreement is that she is asking the EU to come up with new ideas on the backstop. You know - themselves modify the arrangement which they say is imperative and surrounded with red lines.
It has become pretty obvious over the last month that this is not the way to force the EU Commission to change its mind.
There are, though, little whispers doing the rounds that the Commission is already preparing to soften its stance.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:44 am

60 days to go until we hit what some people would call Ground Zero. After that, the UK either ...
a) Carries on trading with the EU, albeit on a different fiscal basis, and carries on trading with the rest of the world using EU regulations or ...
b) Carries on trading with the EU, albeit on a different fiscal basis, and begins trading with the rest of the world on as open a basis as is available.
For information, UK imports from the EU run at about 53%, so we are already trading on a hefty basis with the rest of the world - and although the UK's trade with the EU would change after Brexit, there is no reason to believe that it would substantially disappear.

There - a spot of optimism on a cold Tuesday morning.