The End of Iran?

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Tom Palven
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The End of Iran?

Post by Tom Palven » Tue May 21, 2019 12:11 pm

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/05/ ... 50499.html

Shock and awe on Iran may not spell an end to Iran, but an end to the US as we know it, being tantamount to the last burst of gunfire from a badly injured serial killer taking out more innocent people.
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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 22, 2019 3:05 am

How would an actual military attack ((OK..maybe just Navy Attack and not the landing of 120K troops)) not spell an "end" to Iran? If not regime change, then an end to its FUNDING of proxy wars all over the place? I mean: it does take money to fund proxy troops in lands far away. Can't do that and fight/recover from the USA. i mean: war costs money.....a declining commodity in Iran.

..........but it does figure. Trumps unilateral action against Tehran actually having the desired effect, so....why not screw up economic sanctions by moving to kinetic engagement? ....brilliant!....

..........................and just why would that be any "last burst of gunfire" from the USA? We spend more than the next 11 countries combined for a reason: to be as belligerently incompetent as we wish to be. again: all it costs is money, and the economy is being touted as very strong. I mean: why not screw that pooch too?

I don't think you understand what acting without regard to consequences means.
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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed May 22, 2019 3:10 am

A war with Iran would be more costly for the US than for the Persians.

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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 22, 2019 3:16 am

Yes, but we have more to begin with. Ha, ha.......of more relevance to me, USA has nothing to gain? Really underlines the stupidity of war.

.........and to be "fair" for some loopy reason Trump seems to be anti-war for why we don't know.........BUT....... he chooses underlings for their willingness to crime and lie for him.......not their expertise/wisdom/agreement about anything else.

I "agree" we should be TOUGH on Iran, Russia, China, EU, England, News Media, Immigrants, Pregnant Women, Mexicans, the rest of the World, etc.................but I still draw a line at going to war without some "for real" paramount interest being at risk. haven't seen one of those since 1941.
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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed May 22, 2019 3:41 am

Trump has to gain an election ...

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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 22, 2019 4:04 am

Rally round the Flag?-----yes...as a "general rule." But would it work for Trump?==>I don't think so. //// And I don't conflate USA with Trump but its a fair poser.
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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by Tom Palven » Wed May 22, 2019 8:20 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:41 am
Trump has to gain an election ...
Yes. That could be the kicker.

As I recall, Dubya's popularity rating was below 40%, but immediately after the "shock and awe" on Iraq for nonexistent "weapons of mass destruction" his popularity rating jumped to over 80%, the highest recorded for a sitting President.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Bu ... ORM=IRIBQP

According to Reuters, "Despite their concern, 60% of Americans said that the US should not conduct a pre-emptive strike on Iran, while 12% advocate striking first."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SR27K?il=0

But as Bobbo mentioned, that could all change AFTER an attack when Americans "rally around the flag."
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by landrew » Wed May 22, 2019 4:14 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 8:20 am
ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:41 am
Trump has to gain an election ...
Yes. That could be the kicker.

As I recall, Dubya's popularity rating was below 40%, but immediately after the "shock and awe" on Iraq for nonexistent "weapons of mass destruction" his popularity rating jumped to over 80%, the highest recorded for a sitting President.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Bu ... ORM=IRIBQP

According to Reuters, "Despite their concern, 60% of Americans said that the US should not conduct a pre-emptive strike on Iran, while 12% advocate striking first."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SR27K?il=0

But as Bobbo mentioned, that could all change AFTER an attack when Americans "rally around the flag."
Like it's all about numbers and ratings.
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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by Tom Palven » Wed May 22, 2019 7:09 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:14 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 8:20 am
ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:41 am
Trump has to gain an election ...
Yes. That could be the kicker.

As I recall, Dubya's popularity rating was below 40%, but immediately after the "shock and awe" on Iraq for nonexistent "weapons of mass destruction" his popularity rating jumped to over 80%, the highest recorded for a sitting President.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Bu ... ORM=IRIBQP

According to Reuters, "Despite their concern, 60% of Americans said that the US should not conduct a pre-emptive strike on Iran, while 12% advocate striking first."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SR27K?il=0

But as Bobbo mentioned, that could all change AFTER an attack when Americans "rally around the flag."
Like it's all about numbers and ratings.

Well, it ain't about justice or humanitarianism, is it?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 22, 2019 9:38 pm

I forgot about the Bush Bump after his fraudulent false flag/concerns re 911. WRONG from the get go. While there was a party divide regarding BushtheIdiot at the time, the lines were not as "hard set" as they are I think regarding Trump. I am sad there is a Rally Around the Flag impulse in the hooman spirit. It worked for BushtheIdiot, it works for the Ayatollah, it "could" work for Trump. I have a last wisp of a hope the American public is not this stupid.

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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri May 24, 2019 1:58 am

Lots of presidents have been that stupid. Nor is the USA guaranteed a victory. Look at Viet Nam. Going to war without really, really good cause is utterly stupid.

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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by landrew » Fri May 24, 2019 3:00 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:58 am
Lots of presidents have been that stupid. Nor is the USA guaranteed a victory. Look at Viet Nam. Going to war without really, really good cause is utterly stupid.
Unfortunately it's only in retrospect that you can know if it wasn't a good cause.
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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri May 24, 2019 3:38 am

In my ever so humble opinion, landrew, there are only two good reasons for going to war. If you are attacked, or if an ally that you are committed to support is attacked.
In WWII, the attack on Pearl Harbour was sufficient cause. Britain had sufficient cause when its ally, Belgium was invaded.

In this case, the idiot Trump is talking of invasion because Iran is prepared to take its ability to defend itself to a higher level, with nuclear means. The USA does the same, meaning that cannot without hypocrisy be a genuine casus belli.

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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by landrew » Fri May 24, 2019 6:57 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:38 am
In my ever so humble opinion, landrew, there are only two good reasons for going to war. If you are attacked, or if an ally that you are committed to support is attacked.
In WWII, the attack on Pearl Harbour was sufficient cause. Britain had sufficient cause when its ally, Belgium was invaded.

In this case, the idiot Trump is talking of invasion because Iran is prepared to take its ability to defend itself to a higher level, with nuclear means. The USA does the same, meaning that cannot without hypocrisy be a genuine casus belli.
There's never a "good reason," only a least-worst option.
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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by Austin Harper » Fri May 24, 2019 4:48 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:38 am
Iran is prepared to take its ability to defend itself to a higher level, with nuclear means. The USA does the same, meaning that cannot without hypocrisy be a genuine casus belli.
I agree, it's pretty hypocritical. I would obviously rather Iran and North Korea not have nuclear weapons, but I don't know why the US thinks they can tell those countries they're not allowed to have them when we have thousands.
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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by landrew » Fri May 24, 2019 5:24 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:48 pm
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:38 am
Iran is prepared to take its ability to defend itself to a higher level, with nuclear means. The USA does the same, meaning that cannot without hypocrisy be a genuine casus belli.
I agree, it's pretty hypocritical. I would obviously rather Iran and North Korea not have nuclear weapons, but I don't know why the US thinks they can tell those countries they're not allowed to have them when we have thousands.
Every power structure believes itself to be the sanest available option.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: The End of Iran?

Post by Tom Palven » Fri May 24, 2019 7:56 pm

landrew wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 5:24 pm
Austin Harper wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:48 pm
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:38 am
Iran is prepared to take its ability to defend itself to a higher level, with nuclear means. The USA does the same, meaning that cannot without hypocrisy be a genuine casus belli.
I agree, it's pretty hypocritical. I would obviously rather Iran and North Korea not have nuclear weapons, but I don't know why the US thinks they can tell those countries they're not allowed to have them when we have thousands.
Every power structure believes itself to be the sanest available option.
John Bolton and Elliot Abrams probably view themselves as sane, but invho they are both, like Bibi Netanyahu, and without any intended exaggeration, criminally insane.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot