The ugly truth about everyday life in Baghdad

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Skeptruth
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The ugly truth about everyday life in Baghdad

Post by Skeptruth » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:36 am

I recommend you to read the sad reality and waisting time and American lives, trying to change a culture rooted in Islamic fanatism. All for oil !!
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid ... 090904.ece
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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corymaylett
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Re: The ugly truth about everyday life in Baghdad

Post by corymaylett » Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:48 pm

Skeptruth wrote:I recommend you to read the sad reality and waisting time and American lives, trying to change a culture rooted in Islamic fanatism. All for oil !!
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid ... 090904.ece

Okay, I'm with you right up to the words, "Islamic fanatism" — which is only one of the many problems there.

You really lose me, though, with the "All for oil" kicker. I agree that there are significant economic motivations (among other things) in many military endeavors, but "All for oil"? Do you really think it's that simple? What's your reasoning for believing that it's that black and white?

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Re: The ugly truth about everyday life in Baghdad

Post by Skeptruth » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:19 pm

Thylacine wrote:
Skeptruth wrote:I recommend you to read the sad reality and waisting time and American lives, trying to change a culture rooted in Islamic fanatism. All for oil !!
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid ... 090904.ece

Okay, I'm with you right up to the words, "Islamic fanatism" — which is only one of the many problems there.

You really lose me, though, with the "All for oil" kicker. I agree that there are significant economic motivations (among other things) in many military endeavors, but "All for oil"? Do you really think it's that simple? What's your reasoning for believing that it's that black and white?


Hi, Thylacine, America has become the "policeman of the world"sort of speak. Japan is pulling out of Iraq and England is hanging in there just for Tony Blair. I'm an American citizen by adoption and my wife by birth. I moved to America due to my womanizer father than in the year 1966 left us and immigrated to U.S. with his lover. In the year 1968 at the age of 19 I entered as legal alien and served in the Armed Forces of the U.S. by mandate of the law of the times=the draft. I posted the essay:The United States of America: Why do they hate us so much?
http://www.isometry.com/usahate.html

Nobody made any comments because Americans are looking the other way instead of facing the reality of our continuos series of mistakes and not learning from past experiences , like the Vietnam war. Ask yourself: Do you think we're going to change the culture and religion of the Middle East by having our soldiers there?...Please read this article again and again:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid ... 090904.ece

Americans are duped. In 1973 when the first oil crisis arrived the U.S. government promised: "within 30 years we will be energy independent"

Even president George W. Bush had the nerve to accuse Americans of: "Being oil addicted" Being him an oil man an protecting oil interest. Why is so hard to realize how our government manipulates the minds of the American people ?
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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corymaylett
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Post by corymaylett » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:41 am

Skeptruth wrote:Ask yourself: Do you think we're going to change the culture and religion of the Middle East by having our soldiers there?...

Nope — at least not in a way that's beneficial to anybody. Then again, I'm not a fortune teller.

Skeptruth wrote:Please read this article again and again:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid ... 090904.ece

Interesting and thought-provoking, but one time through was enough.

Skeptruth wrote:Americans are duped. In 1973 when the first oil crisis arrived the U.S. government promised: "within 30 years we will be energy independent"

I don't remember those promises. I do, however, remember admonitions and predictions of oil-related problems that would only grow worse unless we reduced our dependency on foreign oil. As anticipated, the predictions were realized as our oil dependency has increased. I wouldn't make the mistake, though, of assuming that this is the primary reason for the problems we're experiencing in the Middle East. Ongoing U.S. support of Israel, a poor region awash with unequally distributed oil money, and religious fanaticism resulting from that inequality, combined with an abupt cultural jolt into the 21st Century, I think, might be even greater issues that have stirred the regional pot.

Skeptruth wrote:Being him an oil man an protecting oil interest. Why is so hard to realize how our government manipulates the minds of the American people?

Possibly for the same reason that it's equally easy to jump to conclusions.

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Re: The ugly truth about everyday life in Baghdad

Post by Ron L » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:21 am

Skeptruth wrote: Americans are duped. In 1973 when the first oil crisis arrived the U.S. government promised: "within 30 years we will be energy independent"

Sorry to break in here, but Skeptruth has posted this comment several times. I remember the promise, along with other promises such as "Poverty will be solved!", "People will have free energy!"
Skeptruth, you have to keep in mind that politician's promises are aimed at getting votes and they (politicians) presume that no one will remember a promise longer than, say, the next 'crisis'.
I don't disagree that they (politicians) lied, I just find it amazing that you seem to presume they tell the truth.
DJ mentioned some place: "How do you know a politician is lying?" Simple: "Their lips are moving".
Do you think this is different in other countries?
Thanks,
Ron L.

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Energy independence in a decade

Post by Skeptruth » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:27 am

I don't remember those promises. I do, however, remember admonitions and predictions of oil-related problems that would only grow worse unless we reduced our dependency on foreign oil. As anticipated, the predictions were realized as our oil dependency has increased. I wouldn't make the mistake, though, of assuming that this is the primary reason for the problems we're experiencing in the Middle East. Ongoing U.S. support of Israel, a poor region awash with unequally distributed oil money, and religious fanaticism resulting from that inequality, combined with an abupt cultural jolt into the 21st Century, I think, might be even greater issues that have stirred the regional pot.


Hi, Thylacine, I'm not going to answer you every little statement that you questioned believe what you wish but I don't make false quotes or statements, period !!!

I'm going to show that I made a mistake it was president Nixon's administration that promised energy independence no in 30 years but 10 and Jimmy alias"stupid peanut farmer Carter" did some similar promises.

After the first oil shock in 1973, President Nixon vowed energy independence in a decade. Every president since then has promised greater energy security. Yet oil imports that were 35 percent of US oil consumption in 1973 are expected to rise to 63 percent by 2015, federal projections show.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1021/p13s02-stct.html

In a January 1974 radio address about the national energy crisis, Nixon declared: "We must never again be caught in a foreign-made crisis where the United States is dependent on any other country, friendly or unfriendly, for the energy we need to produce our jobs, to heat our homes, to furnish our transportation for wherever we want to go."
http://www.energybulletin.net/474.html
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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Re: The ugly truth about everyday life in Baghdad

Post by Skeptruth » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:57 am

Ron L wrote:
Skeptruth wrote: Americans are duped. In 1973 when the first oil crisis arrived the U.S. government promised: "within 30 years we will be energy independent"

Sorry to break in here, but Skeptruth has posted this comment several times. I remember the promise, along with other promises such as "Poverty will be solved!", "People will have free energy!"
Skeptruth, you have to keep in mind that politician's promises are aimed at getting votes and they (politicians) presume that no one will remember a promise longer than, say, the next 'crisis'.
I don't disagree that they (politicians) lied, I just find it amazing that you seem to presume they tell the truth.
DJ mentioned some place: "How do you know a politician is lying?" Simple: "Their lips are moving".
Do you think this is different in other countries?
Thanks,


Hi, Ron L, So why we follow them like sheep and send our sons and daughters to die in their wars ? Why we have to pay taxes to a plutocratic government ? Why we allow them to squeeze our lives economically believing their broken promises? I left and I live in a small country after they squeezed 36 years of my life...Screw them all !!
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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corymaylett
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Post by corymaylett » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:22 pm

Skeptruth wrote:Hi, Thylacine, I'm not going to answer you every little statement that you questioned believe what you wish but I don't make false quotes or statements, period !!!

I'm going to show that I made a mistake it was president Nixon's administration that promised energy independence no in 30 years but 10 and Jimmy alias"stupid peanut farmer Carter" did some similar promises.

Just for the record: I do not question your honesty — just some of your interpretations and conclusions. We share many of the same concerns, yet the conclusions that you draw seem exaggerated to me.

We seem to have both heard the same statements by government officials during the early '70s oil crisis. However, I interpreted them as warnings, intentions, admonishments and political rhetoric — certainly not promises of a government-sponsored cure. To me it seems obvious that no politician is ever in the position to make guarantees of things like energy independence, freedom from poverty, cures for cancer, or whatever within X number of years. You, however, seem to attach a greater degree of literalness to these political statements of goals and objectives than I (or Ron L) do.

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Post by Die-versity » Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:46 am

Skeptruth wrote:

Do you think we're going to change the culture and religion of the Middle East by having our soldiers there?...


As much as i dislike Bush, look at the results; Syrian troops kicked out of Lebanon, Libya rejoining the world community and renouncing terrorism and wmd's, schools, hospitals and businesses opening in Iraq.

You started this thread talking about the ugly truth of everyday life in iraq. i work on a 1st armored division base in germany. right now i run a bar for the army on post. i have spoken with a lot of soldiers, officers and contractors returning from the 'sandbox.' things are not that bad. there are hotspots like fallujah but for the majority of iraq things are quietly being rebuilt. the iraqis overwhelmingly support the troops and what they have done. soldiers are pissed off for being there but wouldn't you be pissed off in 100+ degree heat for a over a year with no alcohol and no sex working 12 to 18 hours a day? (for the majority at least, 2 female mp's were sent back home for being pregnant and some officers have let slip to me about the well-hid brothels)

did we invade under false pretense? yes. was the post-invasion occupation not fully thought through? yes. is it a christian invasion of a muslim nation? no. was it a mistake? well, most iraqis don't think so.
our soldiers aren't sure. me, i know enough world and american history to be unsurprised by miltiary violations of foreign sovereignty. not a new phenomenon and in no way exclusive to us. and it has nothing to do with religion. just politics.

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I'm proud

Post by Skeptruth » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:32 pm

Die-versity wrote:Skeptruth wrote:

Do you think we're going to change the culture and religion of the Middle East by having our soldiers there?...


As much as i dislike Bush, look at the results; Syrian troops kicked out of Lebanon, Libya rejoining the world community and renouncing terrorism and wmd's, schools, hospitals and businesses opening in Iraq.

You started this thread talking about the ugly truth of everyday life in iraq. i work on a 1st armored division base in germany. right now i run a bar for the army on post. i have spoken with a lot of soldiers, officers and contractors returning from the 'sandbox.' things are not that bad. there are hotspots like fallujah but for the majority of iraq things are quietly being rebuilt. the iraqis overwhelmingly support the troops and what they have done. soldiers are pissed off for being there but wouldn't you be pissed off in 100+ degree heat for a over a year with no alcohol and no sex working 12 to 18 hours a day? (for the majority at least, 2 female mp's were sent back home for being pregnant and some officers have let slip to me about the well-hid brothels)

did we invade under false pretense? yes. was the post-invasion occupation not fully thought through? yes. is it a christian invasion of a muslim nation? no. was it a mistake? well, most iraqis don't think so.
our soldiers aren't sure. me, i know enough world and american history to be unsurprised by miltiary violations of foreign sovereignty. not a new phenomenon and in no way exclusive to us. and it has nothing to do with religion. just politics.


Hi, Die-versity, I'm proud to hear from a brother/sister serving in the Armed Forces serving our nation putting your life at the service of a country that is very unique. The U.S. of America is an amalgam of races and cultures of all over the world. I served in the Vietnam era, I was drafted, I didn't choose to be there,I was picked against my will.I just arrived to U.S. and at that time anyone being a legal alien had to be registered within 6 months of arrival and go thru the process. I rather fight my own wars and not those "invented" by our politicians. U. S. has a bad record of sticking our Armed Forces all over and some of us end up in harms way. I do agree with the removal of Saddam Hussein and his government. He is a genocidal murderer and a destroyer of our home planet by setting on fire the Kuwait oil fields causing an ecological damage of unmeasured proportions. What the rest of the world did about it ? Turned their back on the U.S. by condemning our Irak invasion until this day.U.S. of America is becoming the "policeman" of the world at our own cost by using our own resources of human lives and economical, while the rest of our "allies" are "sawing our chair", sort of speak, in every possible way. They created the Euro to compete with our Dollar and they don't provide any real backing for our armed ventures ( exception UK). Europe and the rest of the world, they see us as the "bad guys". If you are stationed in Germany and I know some stationed in Japan, the people of those countries they don't want us there. Would you like to have Russians stationed in Alaska, would our government allow it ? In the mean time a large majority of U.S citizens young and old work hard looking for decent paying jobs or struggle with what ever is available. Before we have U.S. jobs, now most industries are overseas. U.S of America started these ventures after the overwhelming victory of WWII, we took for granted that we can impose our way of life and take advantage of other countries. First we did, for a few decades, doing business one way, buying raw materials at exploitation prices and selling our products very expensive, making huge profits, bribing foreign politicians, music, movies, clothing, etc. Now we export the jobs to produce the same products but manufactured with cheap labor in their countries. So we screwed them both ways. The tide is turning around and it's time to make changes on our foreign policies on dealing and else. Start worrying more at what is happening in the U.S. with our people, adding to what I just mentioned high taxes, fuel and no affordable medical care .
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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Post by Die-versity » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:17 am

skeptruth wrote:

He is a genocidal murderer and a destroyer of our home planet by setting on fire the Kuwait oil fields causing an ecological damage of unmeasured proportions. What the rest of the world did about it ? Turned their back on the U.S. by condemning our Irak invasion until this day.U.S. of America is becoming the "policeman" of the world at our own cost by using our own resources of human lives and economical, while the rest of our "allies" are "sawing our chair", sort of speak, in every possible way. They created the Euro to compete with our Dollar and they don't provide any real backing for our armed ventures ( exception UK). Europe and the rest of the world, they see us as the "bad guys". If you are stationed in Germany and I know some stationed in Japan, the people of those countries they don't want us there. Would you like to have Russians stationed in Alaska, would our government allow it ?



this actually is my biggest beef with the bush administration. for almost an entire year after 9/11 there were spontaneous outpourings of support all over europe. paris, copenhagen, frankfurt and more had giant signs or banners set up saying "we are all americans." flowers, cards, posters, family photos, poems and stories were piled ten feet high at the entrances to damn near every base and post in germany, holland, italy and the uk. older germans walked up to me and took me by the hand, explaining how a GI in WWII helped them look for their pets in the rubble or would always bring them chocalate and soda.
then not only did we ignore our allies when it came to iraq, our politicians actively called them cowards and backstabbers. now i have to defend my country damn near every time i go out drinking. was saddam a prick who deserved to be removed from power? absolutely. are there dozens of other dictators who fit the same category? definetely. will we be hearing bush or rumsfeld talk about the need to go into n. korea, thailand, most of africa? god no.
as far as our overseas stations go, they may bitch about our presence there but the mayors of nearly every german town near a base is begging us not to leave. once we do their local economy plummets. europe's economy is stagnant and not expected to pick up for at least a decade, especially if we leave en masse.
europeans, i love 'em, but dammit clean your own house before you criticize mine.
and before we forget, all those countries you listed have troops in afghanistan right now. they simply picked their battles. same as we did.

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