Why America keeps making the same mistakes ?

Where have we been?
Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

Why America keeps making the same mistakes ?

Post by Skeptruth » Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:52 am

I said before in this forum that I was part of the Vietnam war that I was only a legal resident, that U.S. citinzenship was given only after being a U.S. legal resident for 5 years. No long ago president George W. Bush did the right thing: A legal alien becomes a U.S. citizen immediately after joining and staying the full agreeable term in the Armed Forces of the U.S.

America doesn't learn of her past mistakes, politicians hava a spell on the citizens of one of the most wonderful countries on the world. Politicians use America's people lives to make them work hard, pay a lot of taxes , gas prices and food highly expensive, dont provide a good national medical system for all Americans, allow illegal immigrants to take away all kind of jobs from those that are legal. Good education is only available to people with good sports abilities, high grades or serve in the military (education bonus) and of course the wealthy.

Why Americans don't react to such an abuse ? Propaganda!!!.Americans believe that is necessary to keep democracy alive by doing all the mentioned things. I posted an essay: The United States of America: Why do they hate us so much?
http://www.isometry.com/usahate.html

I expected a reaction on how the government of U.S.A. is not what it seems. Propaganda spread thru the highly controled news media is doing the job of duping American's minds, just like the did it in Vietnam, the 1973 oil crisis, and today's oil crisis. Corrupted politician use everything available to get their way and keep the majority of the American people serving, no different than slaves, their selfish purposes.

Terrorism is the new "strategy" to send Americans to die for their "country" or for the oil companies ? They say that we reached over 2500 deaths that died serving America, without counting the many thousands mangled up and handicapped for life. Some of you have compared those "low" numbers with the thousands that died unnecessarily in the Vietnam war.

Many of you said: "I'm happy living here", of course you haven't put your life in the line like these 2 American soldiers and so many others: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060621/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

Articles like the one above are common, everyday news. I recommend you to watch the documentary film: Fahrenheit 9/11 by Michael Moore. I don't agree with Michael in some issues and sarcasm but I admire his audacity.
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

User avatar
Scully
Poster
Posts: 216
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Somewhere I'd Prefer Not to Be

Post by Scully » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:36 pm

I have often wondered whether there shouldn't be a mandatory military service for all Americans that would involve travel to impoverished nations. Perhaps they would feel a bit more appreciative of what they have.

Unfortunately, then I think about how our current government is making use of our military, and I wouldn't want all of those lives wasted on Bush's crusades.
"We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality." - Ayn Rand

User avatar
corymaylett
Regular Poster
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:03 am

Post by corymaylett » Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:08 pm

You obviously have much to say and some strong opinions Skeptruth. I too find a great deal of fault in America's foreign and domestic policies, as well as her attitudes about the rest of the world.

However, many of your statements (both here and in your essay) are simply rambling, invective, piss and vinegar declarations of how you feel instead of being thoughtful and persuasive arguments. There are so many logical fallacies in your writing that it's difficult to get past them all. Many of your arguments (and the assumptions that those arguments are based upon) are so refutable, that I'm tempted to take them on myself — even when I basically agree with you.

Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

America lost the edge

Post by Skeptruth » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:32 pm

Thylacine wrote:You obviously have much to say and some strong opinions Skeptruth. I too find a great deal of fault in America's foreign and domestic policies, as well as her attitudes about the rest of the world.

However, many of your statements (both here and in your essay) are simply rambling, invective, piss and vinegar declarations of how you feel instead of being thoughtful and persuasive arguments. There are so many logical fallacies in your writing that it's difficult to get past them all. Many of your arguments (and the assumptions that those arguments are based upon) are so refutable, that I'm tempted to take them on myself — even when I basically agree with you.


Hi, Thylacine, Personally, I think the problem with America is that none of it's citizens really care what's going on in the world around them. They want everything done for them. They want to live in their own little world and never have to deal/be aware of any of the world's problems. This is why we keep electing the same old idiots time and time again. Why is it that no one has questioned the fact that every four years we only have two choices to pick from for president? Because no one has had the guts to question it. Well developed European countries have more than two political parties! I think America needs a revolution. I'm sick of they way our country is being run. How can the president get away with using his own personal religion as part of his tactics. I thought religion was supposed to play no role in government whatsoever. America's citizens need to become more aware of what the heck is going on and how we are continually losing our rights (ie phone tapping, Patriot Act). It'll only get worse unless we do something about it. Regardimg my statements and the way we're being duped are crystal clear I quoted over an over again
Just take as an example the Iraq war and the terrible things that our soldiers are suffering, think about their love ones:
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast ... cnn_latest
Last edited by Skeptruth on Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

Silly Green Monkey
Poster
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:04 am
Location: Tennessee

Post by Silly Green Monkey » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:35 pm

I see you've never voted for Nader.
Normal is just a stereotype.

User avatar
UseYourNoodle
Regular Poster
Posts: 679
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:16 pm
Location: reality

Post by UseYourNoodle » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:45 pm

I don't think the world appreciates us playing world police even if our intentions are good. That is why the U.N. should have handled the situation in Iraq. An argument could be made that the war in Iraq has made us less safe and if that is actually the case it defeats the purpose of going in there to begin with.
It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money so long as you have got it. EDWIN WAY TEALE

User avatar
corymaylett
Regular Poster
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:03 am

Re: America lost the edge

Post by corymaylett » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:07 pm

Skeptruth wrote:Personally, I think the problem with America is that none of it's citizens really care what's going on in the world around them.

None? I think that many of its citizens don't care enough (same as everywhere). A bigger problem might be those who do care and who simply see the world through American-colored glasses instead of how it actually is.

Skeptruth wrote:They want everything done for them.

As opposed to, what, the cradle-to-grave socialism that so many Europeans expect?

Skeptruth wrote:They want to live in their own little world and never have to deal/be aware of any of the world's problems.

I thought you implied that America threw its weight around, but now you're saying it has an isolationist mentality?

Skeptruth wrote:This is why we keep electing the same old idiots time and time again.

As much as I disagree with many politicians, calling them idiots is not only inaccurate, it doesn't help the argument.

Skeptruth wrote:Why is it that no one has questioned the fact that every four years we only have two choices to pick from for president? Because no one has had the guts to question it.

Last time I voted, there were half a dozen presidental candidates listed; I could have voted for any of them. Of course, for all practical purposes, only two had a realistic chance of getting elected. On the other hand, if it weren't for Ralph Nader running, Al Gore would likely have been elected. So other candidates and other parties do make a difference — even if they have no practical chance of winning (or push the election the wrong way). And all this ignores the primaries that lead up to the general elections and where real choices are more evident.

Skeptruth wrote:Well developed European countries have more than two political parties!

Our stuck-in-the-mud political parties are a problem, but I'd rather have that than a government of the week situation like in, say, Italy, for example.

Skeptruth wrote:'I think America needs a revolution.

Some changes, yes. A revolution, no.

Skeptruth wrote:I'm sick of they way our country is being run.

I thought you moved to Switzerland.

Skeptruth wrote:How can the president get away with using his own personal religion as part of his tactics. I thought religion was supposed to play no role in government whatsoever.

The Constitution, Amendment 1 says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." It doesn't say anything about religion playing no part whatsoever. I don't like George Bush's religious beliefs either; nor did I like Jimmy Carter's, but they won their elections, and there's nothing unconstitutional about a president following his beliefs when making decisions.

Skeptruth wrote:America's citizens need to become more aware of what the heck is going on and how we are continually losing our rights (ie phone tapping, Patriot Act). It'll only get worse unless we do something about it.

Better awareness is certainly a good thing. But better awareness just might lead reasonable people to conclude that the Patriot Act is a worthwhile tradeoff if it helps protect the country against terrorism. You seem to feel that better awareness will lead people to the same conclusions you have, but that's not necessarily the outcome we'd get.

Skeptruth wrote:Regardimg my statements and the way we're being duped are crystal clear I quoted over an over again. Just take as an example the Iraq war and the terrible things that our soldiers are suffering, think about their love ones:
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast ... cnn_latest

You might be giving too much credit to those who are supposedly "duping" us. I think the reasoning used by our current adminstration that got us involved in Iraq was naive and wrongheaded. I also think that impatience, bad intelligence, bad assumptions, ignorance, bad judgment and interpreting intellegence to support already existing conclusions, etc., also played a part. I might even say that stupidity at higher levels was the biggest problem of all. However, I do think that the current administration believed that what they were doing was in the best interests of the country; I just think that they were wrong.

Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

Re: America lost the edge

Post by Skeptruth » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:44 pm

Thylacine wrote:
Skeptruth wrote:Personally, I think the problem with America is that none of it's citizens really care what's going on in the world around them.

None? I think that many of its citizens don't care enough (same as everywhere). A bigger problem might be those who do care and who simply see the world through American-colored glasses instead of how it actually is.

Skeptruth wrote:They want everything done for them.

As opposed to, what, the cradle-to-grave socialism that so many Europeans expect?

Skeptruth wrote:They want to live in their own little world and never have to deal/be aware of any of the world's problems.

I thought you implied that America threw its weight around, but now you're saying it has an isolationist mentality?

Skeptruth wrote:This is why we keep electing the same old idiots time and time again.

As much as I disagree with many politicians, calling them idiots is not only inaccurate, it doesn't help the argument.

Skeptruth wrote:Why is it that no one has questioned the fact that every four years we only have two choices to pick from for president? Because no one has had the guts to question it.

Last time I voted, there were half a dozen presidental candidates listed; I could have voted for any of them. Of course, for all practical purposes, only two had a realistic chance of getting elected. On the other hand, if it weren't for Ralph Nader running, Al Gore would likely have been elected. So other candidates and other parties do make a difference — even if they have no practical chance of winning (or push the election the wrong way). And all this ignores the primaries that lead up to the general elections and where real choices are more evident.

Skeptruth wrote:Well developed European countries have more than two political parties!

Our stuck-in-the-mud political parties are a problem, but I'd rather have that than a government of the week situation like in, say, Italy, for example.

Skeptruth wrote:'I think America needs a revolution.

Some changes, yes. A revolution, no.

Skeptruth wrote:I'm sick of they way our country is being run.

I thought you moved to Switzerland.

Skeptruth wrote:How can the president get away with using his own personal religion as part of his tactics. I thought religion was supposed to play no role in government whatsoever.

The Constitution, Amendment 1 says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." It doesn't say anything about religion playing no part whatsoever. I don't like George Bush's religious beliefs either; nor did I like Jimmy Carter's, but they won their elections, and there's nothing unconstitutional about a president following his beliefs when making decisions.

Skeptruth wrote:America's citizens need to become more aware of what the heck is going on and how we are continually losing our rights (ie phone tapping, Patriot Act). It'll only get worse unless we do something about it.

Better awareness is certainly a good thing. But better awareness just might lead reasonable people to conclude that the Patriot Act is a worthwhile tradeoff if it helps protect the country against terrorism. You seem to feel that better awareness will lead people to the same conclusions you have, but that's not necessarily the outcome we'd get.

Skeptruth wrote:Regardimg my statements and the way we're being duped are crystal clear I quoted over an over again. Just take as an example the Iraq war and the terrible things that our soldiers are suffering, think about their love ones:
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast ... cnn_latest

You might be giving too much credit to those who are supposedly "duping" us. I think the reasoning used by our current adminstration that got us involved in Iraq was naive and wrongheaded. I also think that impatience, bad intelligence, bad assumptions, ignorance, bad judgment and interpreting intellegence to support already existing conclusions, etc., also played a part. I might even say that stupidity at higher levels was the biggest problem of all. However, I do think that the current administration believed that what they were doing was in the best interests of the country; I just think that they were wrong.


Hi, Thylacine, whatever makes you happy but while many people are trying to enter the American Paradise, my wife and I left it for good, Screw the American plutocracy, the AMA, the ADA and all the organizations that turned the majority of Americans in total servants of a ruthless government. We live in Salto, Uruguay we don't need Px's for my everyday hypertension medicines, my wife menopausal hormones, just go to the drug store and order freely and we have P.H., we don't have to pay $750 dollars a month for a HMO.
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

User avatar
corymaylett
Regular Poster
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:03 am

Post by corymaylett » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:11 am

Skeptruth wrote:Hi, Thylacine, whatever makes you happy but while many people are trying to enter the American Paradise, my wife and I left it for good, Screw the American plutocracy, the AMA, the ADA and all the organizations that turned the majority of Americans in total servants of a ruthless government. We live in Salto, Uruguay we don't need Px's for my everyday hypertension medicines, my wife menopausal hormones, just go to the drug store and order freely and we have P.H., we don't have to pay $750 dollars a month for a HMO.

Dipping into the socialized Uruguayan health care trough is probably very useful considering that you moved to a country where the per capita GDP is $9,600 as opposed to $41,800 in the U.S.[footnote]http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html[/footnote]

I'm all for improving the equity of the U.S. health care system (it's far from perfect). A direct comparison to Uruguay, however, mostly serves as a good example of the cost vs. benefit problems associated something-for-nothing welfare states.

Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

U.S."Roman Empire"

Post by Skeptruth » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:52 am

Thylacine wrote:
Skeptruth wrote:Hi, Thylacine, whatever makes you happy but while many people are trying to enter the American Paradise, my wife and I left it for good, Screw the American plutocracy, the AMA, the ADA and all the organizations that turned the majority of Americans in total servants of a ruthless government. We live in Salto, Uruguay we don't need Px's for my everyday hypertension medicines, my wife menopausal hormones, just go to the drug store and order freely and we have P.H., we don't have to pay $750 dollars a month for a HMO.

Dipping into the socialized Uruguayan health care trough is probably very useful considering that you moved to a country where the per capita GDP is $9,600 as opposed to $41,800 in the U.S.[footnote]http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html[/footnote]
I'm all for improving the equity of the U.S. health care system (it's far from perfect). A direct comparison to Uruguay, however, mostly serves as a good example of the cost vs. benefit problems associated something-for-nothing welfare states.


Hi, Thylacine, I see that you have done some research and that shows that you're one of the few that cares. That thinks and trys and takes some time to find information. If we don't agree on everything it doesn't matter because humans cannot do that, always we're going to agree on some things.
I'm going to tell you the side that you don't know,like most Americans that are deceived by the controled U.S. plutocracy , media and statistics.

Do you ever heard about free trade agreement and how the U.S."Roman Empire"makes it work ?

It's not free, U.S. want us to pay taxes for our products and they don't want to pay uruguayan taxes, like always screwing the little guy. http://www.isometry.com/usahate.html

When you look at the per capita numbers are really something, aren't ? Uruguay is not paradise there are a lot people in dire straits, the same in the old U.S.A. and the rest of the world. Well, my wife gets $817.00 dollars a month thru her alimony check.

Could you live with that money in the U.S.?

Here we can pay all the utilities (including air conditioning in the summer) we have cable TV $15.00 a month, water $15.00 a month , alarm system phone connected $15.00 a month, phone and DSL $42.00 a month, electric varies between $50-to 80 in the summer. Food, we have one of the best dairy and meat products in the world and vegetables are so cheap that my californian wife cannot believe the prices of excellent oranges, lemons, etc. As an example the best of the best cut like top sirloin, none fat $2.5 a pound, the best ground beef none fat $ 1.7 a pound. Our 2 bedroom house is located a walking distance of a few supermarkets and shopping. By the way if we want more shopping we take the ferry to Concordia, Argentina 15 minutes ride across the Uruguay river for $4.00 round trip per person our yearly taxes on the house $180.00 dollars, by the way that includes my scooter registration and $ 30.00 dollars for all the medications a month. My wife had throat plastic surgery and liposuction, including 2 plastic surgeons and hospital for $900.00 dollars( 10 times less of the U.S. cost ) and the doctor stopped several times at our home to see how she was doing for free. We can save $100 a month of those $817 dollars that in the U.S will pay a one bedroom apartment in some out in the woods area.

Statistics mean nothing !!!...

I was 55 years old and after working 14/6 hours a day, in my dental lab, I was broken in twice, that's why I carried a loaded weapon, Impossible in liberal California to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon. I had to go to Tijuana to smuggle medication to keep me alive at the risk of being thrown in jail for dealing with "illegal drugs".

Oh ! and there is the gun case, costed me a year of pain 10 days in jail because in Ventura, Ca. I was randomly stopped me and the "pigs" found my registered Smith & Wesson 9mm pistol loaded inside my car. Charges were concealed weapon and loaded concealed weapon on a public place. My car a public place, where they came up with such a twisted law ? Ok, I admit I didn't have a permit for carrying a loaded gun outside my home. Where is mercy? I had no priors and I told the Ventura Sheriff cop: "please don't screw up my life" . I spent $14,000.00 almost a year fighting with lawyers. I did 10 days in jail, 3 years probation and they took my gun permanently. I told my wife F. this country I used weapons in Nam, shooted at people and they put me in jail ? We moved out of California after 9/11 2001 and after 3 years in Homestead FL we moved for good to Uruguay. By the way now I own a .38 Colt 6 shooter and practice in my backyard. My neighbors don't care and I carry the gun in my waist if I feel like it and showed to police officers, no problem. The gun is not registered I bought it thru a gunsmith. I watched in 2005 the change of our real democratic government, the president said: " By my honor I swear to respect the constitution of Uruguay"...No Bibles or religious leaders. This country is totally separated from religion. We have some dispute with Argentina over cellulose plants and the sharing of the Uruguay river, proudly I can say that Uruguay is one of the few countries of the world that banned smoking in any public places and the conflict with Argentina is being solved thru the U.N. court of La Haya in the Netherlands in a lawful manner.

How many conflicts "bully" U.S. solved in a peaceful manner with the starting of the Civil War ?

Since 2001-9-11, US citizens have been asking Why do they hate us so much? For most US citizens, this is a rhetorical question. They don't really want to know why. They just want to voice their belief that they are the best country in the world and have never done anything wrong. On the contrary, so they believe, they have been the most generous and helpful country in the world. Unfortunately, the facts are quite different. The USA is very good at media manipulation. Their propaganda techniques would have made Goebbels faint with delight. The USA has helped the world, but just as often, they have helped themselves -- to the resources and well-being of the world. US foreign policy is openly based completely on national self-interest, not international cooperation. The only kind of cooperation the USA understands is one-way cooperation where other countries cooperate with the USA. Other countries must do what the USA requires or be punished by what is euphemistically called linkage, which means punishment for disobeying orders.
http://www.isometry.com/usahate.html
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

User avatar
Pedantica
Regular Poster
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:35 pm
Location: Precinct Fabulous

Post by Pedantica » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:09 am

Thylacine wrote:Dipping into the socialized Uruguayan health care trough is probably very useful considering that you moved to a country where the per capita GDP is $9,600 as opposed to $41,800 in the U.S.


I'm not convinced that the US and Uruguay are likely to be a good comparison in many areas. They are such different countries it is hard to identify a single reason for any difference. But even so a comparison of Life Expectancy is probably a better indicator of the relative overall merits of two countries' health care than GDP is.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... 2rank.html

Uruguay does have a lower life expectancy than the United States by about 1.5 years. Although that does not seem like a lot considering the vast difference in GDP. But then health spending is clearly subject to diminishing returns at the levels of developed nations.

A more enlightening comparison might be to find countries which are broadly similar to the US on GDP and in as many other ways as possible but with a different healthcare system and see how they compare in terms of health statistics, such as life expectancy and more detailed statistics of disease. Countries like Canada and Australia say, perhaps the UK. Then you can have greater confidence that the different healthcare systems may be a significant factor in the difference in health.

User avatar
ifort
Regular Poster
Posts: 582
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:51 pm
Custom Title: Scientific compiler
Location: nuclear accident site

Post by ifort » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:43 am

About comparing that data, here is a useful tool for doing so:

http://tools.google.com/gapminder/
GOD is REAL unless declared INTEGER.

"I wish to propose for the reader's favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true."
-Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Pedantica
Regular Poster
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:35 pm
Location: Precinct Fabulous

Post by Pedantica » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:01 pm

ifort wrote:About comparing that data, here is a useful tool for doing so:

http://tools.google.com/gapminder/


Thanks a lot for this. A really useful and well built tool.

The US does appear to be slightly off the trend in this graph by 2004.

Interestingly if you rewind it back to the mid 1970s this is not the case. What appears to have happened is that a large number of countries with similar but slightly lower GDP (prodominantly 'orange' European nations) which had similar life expectancy in the mid 1970s gradually overtook the US over the 30 year period. This is slightly more pronounced if you choose to highlight some European countries than others, for example it is more obvious if you tick France and the US or Germany and the US, than if you tick the UK and the US.

User avatar
corymaylett
Regular Poster
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:03 am

Post by corymaylett » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:25 pm

Skeptruth wrote:When you look at the per capita numbers are really something, aren't ? Uruguay is not paradise there are a lot people in dire straits, the same in the old U.S.A. and the rest of the world. Well, my wife gets $817.00 dollars a month thru her alimony check.

Could you live with that money in the U.S.?

Comparing Uruguay to the U.S. is certainly an apples to oranges comparison (as Pedantica mentioned). Health care in Uruguay (as you mentioned) might be more affordable than that in the U.S., but those kinds of advantages disappear or are reversed in other areas, so it's a mixed bag. I suppose what is really relevant is the quality of life — "gross national happiness," as the king of Bhutan put it.

Skeptruth wrote:Oh ! and there is the gun case, costed me a year of pain 10 days in jail because in Ventura, Ca. I was randomly stopped me and the "pigs" found my registered Smith & Wesson 9mm pistol loaded inside my car.

Skeptruth wrote:...proudly I can say that Uruguay is one of the few countries of the world that banned smoking in any public places

If you've found a country that allows you to carry loaded weapons in your vehicle but prevents others from smoking in public, that's fine — if that's what you're looking for. It seems a bit bassackwards to me, though.

I do, however, think that your personal consequences of running up against California's gun laws were a bit extreme and unwarranted. I also suspect that this experience has tainted your opinion of the entire country in a way that is also unwarranted. I wonder how many smokers in Uruguay have similar feelings.

Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

Weapons

Post by Skeptruth » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:23 pm

Thylacine wrote:
Skeptruth wrote:When you look at the per capita numbers are really something, aren't ? Uruguay is not paradise there are a lot people in dire straits, the same in the old U.S.A. and the rest of the world. Well, my wife gets $817.00 dollars a month thru her alimony check.

Could you live with that money in the U.S.?

Comparing Uruguay to the U.S. is certainly an apples to oranges comparison (as Pedantica mentioned). Health care in Uruguay (as you mentioned) might be more affordable than that in the U.S., but those kinds of advantages disappear or are reversed in other areas, so it's a mixed bag. I suppose what is really relevant is the quality of life — "gross national happiness," as the king of Bhutan put it.

Skeptruth wrote:Oh ! and there is the gun case, costed me a year of pain 10 days in jail because in Ventura, Ca. I was randomly stopped me and the "pigs" found my registered Smith & Wesson 9mm pistol loaded inside my car.

Skeptruth wrote:...proudly I can say that Uruguay is one of the few countries of the world that banned smoking in any public places

If you've found a country that allows you to carry loaded weapons in your vehicle but prevents others from smoking in public, that's fine — if that's what you're looking for. It seems a bit bassackwards to me, though.

I do, however, think that your personal consequences of running up against California's gun laws were a bit extreme and unwarranted. I also suspect that this experience has tainted your opinion of the entire country in a way that is also unwarranted. I wonder how many smokers in Uruguay have similar feelings.


I'm a man that served in the Armed Forces I went to a foreign land and kill everything insight. BS that in Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan our soldiers only kill "bad guys". We kill women and children, we went to a village and we didn't left nothing alive !!!. I seen my brothers being blown away by a pregnant woman with a live granade. Kids throw granades under our vehicles that kind of rhetoric about guns is just the way our government use to control all of us. I've been broken in at my business in Oxnard, Ca. twice. Wow, after the U.S. government made me shoot everything that moved in Nam, I couldn't protect myself of the mexican gangs in the other side of the railroad tracks, La Colonia, Oxnard ,Ventura , Ca. ...Good reasoning, give me a break and keep dreaming with the U.S. alias Roman Empire.
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

User avatar
corymaylett
Regular Poster
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:03 am

Re: Weapons

Post by corymaylett » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:16 pm

Skeptruth wrote:I'm a man that served in the Armed Forces I went to a foreign land and kill everything insight. BS that in Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan our soldiers only kill "bad guys". We kill women and children, we went to a village and we didn't left nothing alive !!!. I seen my brothers being blown away by a pregnant woman with a live granade. Kids throw granades under our vehicles that kind of rhetoric about guns is just the way our government use to control all of us. I've been broken in at my business in Oxnard, Ca. twice. Wow, after the U.S. government made me shoot everything that moved in Nam, I couldn't protect myself of the mexican gangs in the other side of the railroad tracks, La Colonia, Oxnard ,Ventura , Ca. ...Good reasoning, give me a break and keep dreaming with the U.S. alias Roman Empire.

A war is not being fought in southern California — you should have left your VietNam experiences on the other side of the Pacific. Pregnant women do not carry grenades in Oxnard, and carrying a loaded weapon in a moving vehicle is a legitimate safety issue. Protecting yourself from "Mexican gangs" is one thing, engaging them as though they were the Viet Cong is another.

Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

Re: Weapons

Post by Skeptruth » Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:39 am

Thylacine wrote:
Skeptruth wrote:I'm a man that served in the Armed Forces I went to a foreign land and kill everything insight. BS that in Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan our soldiers only kill "bad guys". We kill women and children, we went to a village and we didn't left nothing alive !!!. I seen my brothers being blown away by a pregnant woman with a live granade. Kids throw granades under our vehicles that kind of rhetoric about guns is just the way our government use to control all of us. I've been broken in at my business in Oxnard, Ca. twice. Wow, after the U.S. government made me shoot everything that moved in Nam, I couldn't protect myself of the mexican gangs in the other side of the railroad tracks, La Colonia, Oxnard ,Ventura , Ca. ...Good reasoning, give me a break and keep dreaming with the U.S. alias Roman Empire.

A war is not being fought in southern California — you should have left your VietNam experiences on the other side of the Pacific. Pregnant women do not carry grenades in Oxnard, and carrying a loaded weapon in a moving vehicle is a legitimate safety issue. Protecting yourself from "Mexican gangs" is one thing, engaging them as though they were the Viet Cong is another.


I disagree with you, that's all !!!
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

User avatar
Thorn
Regular Poster
Posts: 744
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:07 pm
Location: In your side.

Post by Thorn » Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:08 am

And here I was just going to school and working, trying my best to get by, but as according to Skeppy, I aparently am living a selfish unfair life.

{!#%@}, and it took me so long to be comfortable getting by. Guess I have to change the world.

Here's an idea, Skeppy, complain off the forums, you aren't gonna change the world by bitching in binary. Yeah, it ain't perfect, but not everyone lives your life.

So let's see, you have a wife, I could attack you with all the bad stuff that comes with that, but the fact remains there is some good in it, too. I am happy being an American, and I do make the most of my life. I've been jumped, been feet away from a gunfight in a Gas station parking lot, am exposed to ignorance beyond belief while working in a MALL, but I still try to have a positive outlook. I disagree with how the country is run, but as it goes, I am in no place to change that. So I choose to make a positive impact on people I can, rather than slander and attack my fellow countrymen, to whatever need there is for it.

We're human, and for the most part, the folk I interact with everyday are just like me, trying to get by. Yeah, it's a little easier to get by here than other places. I'm happy I can go to the market and use public transpo and not worry about suicide bombers killing me because I don't practice their religion. I'm happy I can go to school and study what i choose to study. I am sad for those from previous generations that were forced into war, and wish they are happy that this generation does not have to suffer the same fate.

I can see you are jaded, but I do not judge you a bad person. But a little positive light never hurt anyone. America, like every country, offers much potetial for the world with it's people. Politics aside, the American public hides within it many people who may just one day positively affect the world. Within this very country could lie a cure for aids, or cancer. Maybe my generation holds another person who will speak strongly for peace, much like those of the past. I'm not saying these people make up the entire population, by no means, but they are just as likely to exist here as elsewhere.

I do, however, wish the world would stop tying American People to it's leaders. For the most part, my America cares not for it's leaders, and those who are intelligent seperate from that. Idiots get into office because idiots vote them in, naturally. But there is a majority of intelligent people who either vote against the idiots, or are simply too busy/apathetic to do so. I know few neighbors of mine who support Bush's America. Not a one in my day to day life is a warmonger, bible thumping red-state nut job.

Please, do not clump me in with that type, and please don't assume we, as Americans, don't wish the world to be a better place.
"In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."
-S.J. Gould

Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

Pure chauvinistic American propaganda

Post by Skeptruth » Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:59 am

Thorn wrote:And here I was just going to school and working, trying my best to get by, but as according to Skeppy, I aparently am living a selfish unfair life.

{!#%@}, and it took me so long to be comfortable getting by. Guess I have to change the world.

Here's an idea, Skeppy, complain off the forums, you aren't gonna change the world by bitching in binary. Yeah, it ain't perfect, but not everyone lives your life.

So let's see, you have a wife, I could attack you with all the bad stuff that comes with that, but the fact remains there is some good in it, too. I am happy being an American, and I do make the most of my life. I've been jumped, been feet away from a gunfight in a Gas station parking lot, am exposed to ignorance beyond belief while working in a MALL, but I still try to have a positive outlook. I disagree with how the country is run, but as it goes, I am in no place to change that. So I choose to make a positive impact on people I can, rather than slander and attack my fellow countrymen, to whatever need there is for it.

We're human, and for the most part, the folk I interact with everyday are just like me, trying to get by. Yeah, it's a little easier to get by here than other places. I'm happy I can go to the market and use public transpo and not worry about suicide bombers killing me because I don't practice their religion. I'm happy I can go to school and study what i choose to study. I am sad for those from previous generations that were forced into war, and wish they are happy that this generation does not have to suffer the same fate.

I can see you are jaded, but I do not judge you a bad person. But a little positive light never hurt anyone. America, like every country, offers much potetial for the world with it's people. Politics aside, the American public hides within it many people who may just one day positively affect the world. Within this very country could lie a cure for aids, or cancer. Maybe my generation holds another person who will speak strongly for peace, much like those of the past. I'm not saying these people make up the entire population, by no means, but they are just as likely to exist here as elsewhere.

I do, however, wish the world would stop tying American People to it's leaders. For the most part, my America cares not for it's leaders, and those who are intelligent seperate from that. Idiots get into office because idiots vote them in, naturally. But there is a majority of intelligent people who either vote against the idiots, or are simply too busy/apathetic to do so. I know few neighbors of mine who support Bush's America. Not a one in my day to day life is a warmonger, bible thumping red-state nut job.

Please, do not clump me in with that type, and please don't assume we, as Americans, don't wish the world to be a better place.


Hi, Thorn, you got a nice screen name or maybe is your real name ? Are you a thorn in the ass? Where do you come with this blinding thinking that the only place to feel free is a country call U.S.A. ? That's pure chauvinistic American propaganda. For the norrow minded information individual. The world is a big place and there are many democracies all over the planet. Yes, people can express themselves, yes, can say what they feel walk free and in some countries marijuana is legalized

Many countries have laws regarding the cultivation, possession, supply or use of cannabis (hemp). Non-psychoactive cannabis products (e.g. fibre and seed) are legal in many countries, and these countries may license cultivation for these purposes. The herb is a controlled substance in most, though its use is condoned in some locales for medicinal purposes. In some countries, such as Portugal, cannabis drug material is legal for personal use, though restrictions do apply to its sale, distribution or consumption
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_of_cannabis
http://www.smoke-marijuana.com/facts/legalize/


I fought in Vietnam and we smoked all the time. I don't like any kind of smoke but I don't mind those they like to screw their lungs (tobacco smoking is legal everywhere and people die by the millions), feel good or do whatever they like with their own bodies. While you are duped to believe that you live in a "real democracy" By your own statement: " I am happy being an American, and I do make the most of my life." That {!#%@} I heard most of my life, is a racist statement because there are a lot of Americans, you are a citizen of U.S. of America. You don't own the Americas, South , central and North. Going back at the freedom that you like to preach. Do you wonder what we were doing in Nam and now in Afganistan, Iraq and many other places ? Do you care of the many lives being wasted using our U.S.A BS democracy?. Before you and I were born the U.S. politicians violated the original democratic constitution by amending it or better yet raped !! As an exampe of many mad amendments was Prohibition, gun control,"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

And now we discover that NSA is searching through every possible phone call made in the US. They claim that NSA is not receiving any personally identifying information. Frankly you have to be a complete moron to believe that. It is trivial to narrow down access to a phone number to just a few members of a household, if not in fact to exactly one person.


Wow !! and you're so proud of the U.S. Nazi democracy. If Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, John Adams and so many patriots that gave their lives to make the United States of America democratic constitution, be alive today will start another revolution to fight the plutocracy that our corrupted politicians have created !!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/guncontrol/
http://www.infowars.com/articles/bb/nsa ... danger.htm
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

User avatar
Thorn
Regular Poster
Posts: 744
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:07 pm
Location: In your side.

Post by Thorn » Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:52 pm

Hi, Thorn, you got a nice screen name or maybe is your real name ? Are you a thorn in the ass? Where do you come with this blinding thinking that the only place to feel free is a country call U.S.A. ? That's pure chauvinistic American propaganda. For the norrow minded information individual. The world is a big place and there are many democracies all over the planet. Yes, people can express themselves, yes, can say what they feel walk free and in some countries marijuana is legalized


I didn't say anything about it being the only place, but it is the place that is most readily available to me. The American you describe is something I really don't see in day to day life. I don't do drugs, so the inability to do them is not something I really discuss. Personally, I've seen both positive and negative effects of pot, and choose to not get involved in arguments about it.

The whole problem with your argument is that you are clumping we on the Skeptic forum with the lowest class of American Citizen, specially reserved for the most ignorant of generalisations. I have a job I like, and am attending school relatively stress free. COuld I do it elsewhere? Surely, but as it goes, I see no reason. I am doing nothing worth spying on, I stay on the appropriate side of the law. What the Government is doing holds no real threat to me. For these sets of circumstances, I am blessed(in a matter of speaking, since I don't believe in a "Blesser" as it would be). True, things could be better over here, but the "better" argument applies to anywhere in the world.

If Jefferson and the crew were alive today, I'm sure they would find a better medium of starting a revolution, rather than insulting people on internet forums.

But, as you seem to refuse to see me as a lower middle class college student barely getting by, and would rather see me as a flag waving facist patriot who pays no mind to the rest of the world, then there is no point in going on. You are obviously holding a grudge, and would rather see everyone as you want to see them, rather than take me, as an individual, seriously.
"In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."
-S.J. Gould

Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

Citizens of the world

Post by Skeptruth » Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:22 am

Hi, Thorn, Just by mentioning these words it proves how people like you are not concerned at all about what governments-corporations are doing to our home planet ( the only one we have) It shows your egotistical concern about your meaningless life, like my own. Screw the 6 billion humans and all other life ( coral reefs are dying at giant leaps)on earth and all the irreversible damage that is scientifically proven, it will erase the human race and most life. I'm posting some sites to show what's going on. You claim to be a "lower middle class college student" maybe your basic education will let you see that U.S. of America (one of the largest and most polluting countries in the world) is part of a planet and not just the planet.

Can you tell me what urgent steps U.S of America is taking to help ?

What the Government is doing holds no real threat to me. [very selfish statement]

http://www.pastpeak.com/archives/2006/03/
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0131-03.htm
http://www.nonukes.org/briefing.htm#intro
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/TECH/scienc ... arming.ap/
http://www.energybulletin.net/474.html
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... i_16805714

Thorn you're the U.S. of America typical selfish arrogant that lives in your little world caring about the everyday life and selfishly going along with the most powerful government in the world says. It makes the Roman Empire look like a gnat.

http://www.isometry.com/usahate.html
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

User avatar
Thorn
Regular Poster
Posts: 744
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:07 pm
Location: In your side.

Post by Thorn » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:50 pm

/sigh

Typical and pathetic. You choose to attack me, even though you don't know me.

You are jaded beyond logic, and would rather believe I only live my life for my own gain because I am not living how you think I should live.

You accuse me of arrogance, egotism, and a slew of other things you prove only yourself to be by telling me how I should live.

I do wish to change the world. One day. I am not going to put my education on hold because I feel there is much more I can do when it is completed. I am advancing my knowledge in science, and do have full intentions of taking a career in it(enviromental sciences, I might add, so your attempt to act as though i am unconcerned with biology and climate of this planet falls short, you piss-brained {!#%@}). Your ignorance of how I live my life is so blatantly obvious that you seem to fitthe bill of the "average American" you so cynically describe.

So tell me? How is your attacking a young college student doing anything for the world? eh? How is your bitching equating to saving the reefs? How is your arrogance helping global warming? How is your complete and total hate for a country gonna save the world?

You can attack the leaders of the land I live in, but from where I stand, my leaders are neither the religious or the political. My leaders stand in labs and classes. But hey, I'm sure that just makes me even more American.

I don't worry what you say after this, I'm done with this thread. It's just gonna be a cynical {!#%@} beating a dead horse at this point.
"In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."
-S.J. Gould

Ron L
Regular Poster
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:56 am

Post by Ron L » Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:32 am

Skeptruth,
I gotta point out that you're offering (and maybe 'requiring') all sorts of revolutionary activity by those of us who live in the US.
And I gotta mention that a whole lot of us are not pleased with how our government is dealing with current problems, and are acting in some way to change that.
But so far, for all of your griping, your personal effort has been to move to Uraguay! Now it may be a wonderful country, but I doubt the solution you've chosen is realistic for the rest of us; can Uraguay accept 300,000,000 immigrants?
So, if you have any realistic alternative, I'd love to hear it, but so far, your standing on the far (far) sidelines asking the rest of us to take a lick for the team (and I'm not so sure you're on the team).
Thanks,
Ron L.

Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

I love the people of U.S. of America

Post by Skeptruth » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:08 am

Ron L wrote:Skeptruth,
I gotta point out that you're offering (and maybe 'requiring') all sorts of revolutionary activity by those of us who live in the US.
And I gotta mention that a whole lot of us are not pleased with how our government is dealing with current problems, and are acting in some way to change that.
But so far, for all of your griping, your personal effort has been to move to Uraguay! Now it may be a wonderful country, but I doubt the solution you've chosen is realistic for the rest of us; can Uraguay accept 300,000,000 immigrants?
So, if you have any realistic alternative, I'd love to hear it, but so far, your standing on the far (far) sidelines asking the rest of us to take a lick for the team (and I'm not so sure you're on the team).
Thanks,


Hi, Ron L. Ron for 36 years of my life I lived in U.S. I complied with the different laws according to the States that form the Union of America. Our government after WWII has increased the corruption, mocking the Fathers of the U.S. Constitution. Yes, I'm a rebel and I believe the government of U.S. has lost control and needs to be overhauled

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive.
Thomas Jefferson

"The right of self-government does not comprehend the government of others." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on Residence Bill, 1790.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion... We have had thirteen States independent for eleven years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half, for each State. What country before ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion?" --Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith, 1787. ME 6:372


The U.S. government stopped being a democracy but turned to be a plutocracy. We are now under NSA= Gestapo, our medical care is one of the most expensive in the world but not effective:

While some analysts argue that more beds and scanning units do not necessarily mean better health care, most agree that Americans are not getting the best value for the money.
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/ ... N=55069844


Do you have an idea how many U.S. citizens are living overseas and why?

Do you think that's fair that one of the most powerful and richest nation of the world can not provide it's aging citizens with good retirement ?

Why after paying for most of my life S.S. the U.S government keeps raising the retirement age ?

Why the U.S government looks the other way and spend billions on foreign aid ,while U.S.citizens need it at home ?

I can write a book of questions, I live in Uruguay because I cannot afford neither the medical or the risk of getting injured and be homeless, like so many U.S.citizens are. Many gave their lives to an ungrateful country, I did my duty.
This is where most of our tax money goes:
http://www.startribune.com/587/story/516981.html
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

User avatar
Thorn
Regular Poster
Posts: 744
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:07 pm
Location: In your side.

Post by Thorn » Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:46 pm

I.E. He couldn't make it, and expects us to do something about it. His vendetta against the government means he gets to run away, but we're supposed to be all pitchfork and torches to the white house.

Once again, your seeming more and more like the one's you speak so strongly against. Cowardice and snake tongued.

You did your duty? Sounds pretty selfish to me. You fought in a war, so therefore you are claiming exempt from being part of the thing you so strongly advocate? As often as you quote Jefferson, something tells me he did a little more than take a stick to the cage of the people from another country and try to avoid the work himself.
"In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."
-S.J. Gould

Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

Post by Skeptruth » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:36 pm

Thorn wrote:I.E. He couldn't make it, and expects us to do something about it. His vendetta against the government means he gets to run away, but we're supposed to be all pitchfork and torches to the white house.

Once again, your seeming more and more like the one's you speak so strongly against. Cowardice and snake tongued.

You did your duty? Sounds pretty selfish to me. You fought in a war, so therefore you are claiming exempt from being part of the thing you so strongly advocate? As often as you quote Jefferson, something tells me he did a little more than take a stick to the cage of the people from another country and try to avoid the work himself.


You're right get on another subject because I won't answer you, bend your knees and do what do you do best !!!
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

User avatar
Thorn
Regular Poster
Posts: 744
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:07 pm
Location: In your side.

Post by Thorn » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:04 am

Yes yes, on my knees worshipping the big bad Guv'ment, eh? Cause yeah, that's so like me. After all, since I am not blowing up embassies or moving out of the country because I can't make it, I must be a flagwaving psycho.

Naturally, by not actively speaking out against america on internet forums, I must be completely for what the Government does.

Pathetic, sir.
"In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."
-S.J. Gould

User avatar
Pyrrho
Administrator
Posts: 9950
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:31 am

Re: Citizens of the world

Post by Pyrrho » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:23 am

Skeptruth wrote:Thorn you're the U.S. of America typical selfish arrogant that lives in your little world caring about the everyday life and selfishly going along with the most powerful government in the world says. It makes the Roman Empire look like a gnat.

[mod]Skeptruth, please avoid posting personal attacks.[/mod]
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

Ron L
Regular Poster
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:56 am

Re: I love the people of U.S. of America

Post by Ron L » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:28 am

Skeptruth,
You seem to be asking to have your cake and eat it.
You quote T. Jefferson (and I doubt there's a record of one of his quotes I haven't read), and you (rightly, in my opinion) take the US Gov't to task for distorting what the founders had in mind.
And then we get this:
Skeptruth wrote:
While some analysts argue that more beds and scanning units do not necessarily mean better health care, most agree that Americans are not getting the best value for the money.
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/ ... N=55069844


Do you have an idea how many U.S. citizens are living overseas and why?

Do you think that's fair that one of the most powerful and richest nation of the world can not provide it's aging citizens with good retirement ?

Why after paying for most of my life S.S. the U.S government keeps raising the retirement age ?

Why the U.S government looks the other way and spend billions on foreign aid ,while U.S.citizens need it at home ?

Well, for starters, according to the founders, government has no business providing this stuff.
What's more is that these sorts of social programs have a *very* short history (say ~50 years) and it's becoming obvious that it is not possible for governments to fund them.
So do you want what the founders desired, or do you want some sort of 'new' government?
(what people living overseas has to do with any of this, I can only guess)
Thanks,
Ron L.

Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

Re: I love the people of U.S. of America

Post by Skeptruth » Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:37 am

Ron L wrote:Skeptruth,
You seem to be asking to have your cake and eat it.
You quote T. Jefferson (and I doubt there's a record of one of his quotes I haven't read), and you (rightly, in my opinion) take the US Gov't to task for distorting what the founders had in mind.
And then we get this:
Skeptruth wrote:
While some analysts argue that more beds and scanning units do not necessarily mean better health care, most agree that Americans are not getting the best value for the money.
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/ ... N=55069844


Do you have an idea how many U.S. citizens are living overseas and why?

Do you think that's fair that one of the most powerful and richest nation of the world can not provide it's aging citizens with good retirement ?

Why after paying for most of my life S.S. the U.S government keeps raising the retirement age ?

Why the U.S government looks the other way and spend billions on foreign aid ,while U.S.citizens need it at home ?

Well, for starters, according to the founders, government has no business providing this stuff.
What's more is that these sorts of social programs have a *very* short history (say ~50 years) and it's becoming obvious that it is not possible for governments to fund them.
So do you want what the founders desired, or do you want some sort of 'new' government?
(what people living overseas has to do with any of this, I can only guess)
Thanks,


Hi, RonL, US. of America has a long history of deceit and manipulation of its U.S. citizens and the world. Like the Roman Empire but in a modern way, sort of speak, more sophisticated. Like I said before U.S. of America took off after WWII. After a couple decades things starting to deteriorate rapidly. 1973 was the first oil crisis, at to that point we have very cheap energy and everything was on a roll. Nixon took the rap for Watergate and a peanut farmer by the name of Jimmy Carter really put the U.S. in a hole. He screwed the economy, interest rates hit 21% and opened the doors to the cubans and became the lackey of Fidel Castro. Allowed thousands of cubans to invade Miami, Florida thru the Mariel deal. I was there, I moved to California. Next came the charismatic president Ronald Reagan. He made a serious of movie moves and the USSR felt, the economy recovered but he did some boo-boos but got us out of trouble. His vice president took over and like his son are a pair of imbecils. George Bush Sr. was so bad that our next choice was a womanizer but charistmatic president by the name of Bill Clinton. He weakened our country and our military. He barked but no action. He allowed the Islamic terrorists and Saddam Hussein to go along , once in a while he fired some missiles and sent some soldiers to die unnecessarily. By the time of "read my lips son" took over the bomb was ticking. He became the president in a very disputed election and inherited years of negligence of past administrations. 9/11 destroyed the few neurons left after years of drug abuse. He just did what he could with whatever functioning brain he had left. Today U.S. of America is in dire straits and the next administration will have to deal like the last play of a football game with 3 seconds left on the clock and the QB has to throw deep to score a TD.
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

Ron L
Regular Poster
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:56 am

Re: I love the people of U.S. of America

Post by Ron L » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:14 am

Skeptruth wrote: Hi, RonL, US. of America has a long history of deceit and manipulation of its U.S. citizens and the world. Like the Roman Empire but in a modern way, sort of speak, more sophisticated. Like I said before U.S. of America took off after WWII. After a couple decades things starting to deteriorate rapidly.

Well, no (he explained).
Actually the Roman Empire lasted for ~1,000 to ~1,500 years depending on how it is defined. The current experiment in the US has lasted for a bit over 200 years. I don't know how you define "long history of deceit", but I doubt we agree on that, since you place the orgination of that deceit about 50 years ago. Remember how Red China was a long-term threat? 50 years and 'poof'.

Skeptruth wrote: 1973 was the first oil crisis, at to that point we have very cheap energy and everything was on a roll. Nixon took the rap for Watergate and a peanut farmer by the name of Jimmy Carter really put the U.S. in a hole. He screwed the economy, interest rates hit 21% and opened the doors to the cubans and became the lackey of Fidel Castro. Allowed thousands of cubans to invade Miami, Florida thru the Mariel deal. I was there, I moved to California. Next came the charismatic president Ronald Reagan. He made a serious of movie moves and the USSR felt, the economy recovered but he did some boo-boos but got us out of trouble. His vice president took over and like his son are a pair of imbecils. George Bush Sr. was so bad that our next choice was a womanizer but charistmatic president by the name of Bill Clinton. He weakened our country and our military. He barked but no action. He allowed the Islamic terrorists and Saddam Hussein to go along , once in a while he fired some missiles and sent some soldiers to die unnecessarily. By the time of "read my lips son" took over the bomb was ticking. He became the president in a very disputed election and inherited years of negligence of past administrations. 9/11 destroyed the few neurons left after years of drug abuse. He just did what he could with whatever functioning brain he had left.

The time from 1973 is "a long history"?! I have a hard time picking a president who meets my standards, and to piss people off, I'll include FDR and Lincoln. You're a slacker, just picking presidents from the 1970s onwards. But the (any) president is not what 'makes' the US; there is still a *bit* of checks and balances.

Skeptruth wrote: Today U.S. of America is in dire straits and the next administration will have to deal like the last play of a football game with 3 seconds left on the clock and the QB has to throw deep to score a TD.

Well, here we have a bit of hyperbole. The guy on the corner swears the 'world is gonna end tomorrow'. I think we have a bit more time to keep trying. Want perfection? I don't know how to find it. I'll settle for improvement or maybe not deterioration. But maybe I'm easily amused...
And you didn't even take a stab at answering the contradictions I pointed out in your earlier post; are you serious in your comments or just venting?
Thanks,
Ron L.

User avatar
Thorn
Regular Poster
Posts: 744
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:07 pm
Location: In your side.

Post by Thorn » Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:23 am

I would like to go on record in saying I do not support the current administration. I cannot give my opinion of previous cabinets, as this is the first one I am experiencing that I am, while loosly, politically aware. I am aware the threat of a "true" theocracy is more and more aparent every day. My only complaint is Skeppy's consistant attack on the citizens, the people I deal with every day in conciderable numbers(I work retail), and his choice to attack them with generalizations and stereotypes is what I find most unattractive. I am disturbed by the fact that he uses his personal experience and bias to describe the country, labeling the lowest rung of his experience as the majority. The fact remains, I do not plead my country as perfect, however, I will not claim I am not happy to live here than place where "religious war" is more literal than figurative. I am happy to be here, where there is free information, without filters blocking out anything that may make me think twice about my government(see:China). I am glad I live in a place where even at minimum wage, I can avoid famine(even if it is only ramen noodles and hotdogs)

Yeah, America isn't the only place with such luxeries, and I've no intention of taking it for granted. I am aware of the world problems, but I can do much more after I am educated and in the field. I can't exactly solve them where I stand. But for someone to ruthlessly attack from the sidelines, telling people to war against their government for him...well...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you attacked the Guvs for telling people to war for them? Fishy.
"In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."
-S.J. Gould

Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

American Dream

Post by Skeptruth » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:01 am

Hi, RonL and Thorn, let me tell you in the first place it seems that we have a huge gap on age (I'm 57) understanding or both. I love the U.S. of America, I'm married to a born Californian woman, that I love with all my heart. I served and love the U.S. most of my life. My son and my daughter were born in the U.S. My son is 34 and my daugther 29, they live in Miami, FL so the rest of my family, 2 brothers, 1sister uncle and cousins. My wife has her family all over, her son lives in Az. father in Ca. brother in Id., 2 sisters in Ca.
We miss the U.S.,especially her without being able to speak but just a few words of spanish. When we took the decision of moving in april 2004 was because the U.S. became a liability for our budget. We worked self employed, insurance for both of us $650.00 dollars a month. Our 3 bedroom mobile home, land rental, insurance and utilities were almost a $1,000.00 a month. We found out later that Mobile Home parks are being sold to build condos. So the end result is losing your home , it costs $9,000.00 to lifted and good luck to find another park to put it in. Our lease where we had our dental lab was 15X12 including electricity $650.00 a month. My health was becoming a problem, 15 years of hypertension and 40 years of working with chemicals, dust, affected my lungs. Thanks to illegal immigration I couldn't find enough business to grow and hire help, I was a one man lab. My father died in NYC in 1998, working self employed. Found him dead at his studio apt. business/home, he was 71 years old and worked till he died, he couldn't live with $600.00 dollars S.S. security a month. Cremation cost was paid between my brother Alex and myself $ 3,000.00. My brother Alex was fortunate, he sued the doctor and hospital for malpractice over his wife brain aneurism mistake and got $250,000.00, our mother handled him all the insurance policy that she got of my dead 29 year old brother ( worked at Mc Cormicks) died from AIDS. His wife inherited $50,000.00 dollars from her dead father's estate. Today he lives the "American Dream", never was sick, never was jobless, never got divorced. He owns 4 homes in West Palm Beach, FL. I didn't win that kind of "lottery", so I did the best I could to survive, "get the hell out of Dodge". I feel sorry for so many U.S. citizens that are in dire straits in the U.S. and many more that have to do what we did. My father used to say : " In the U.S. you have to be young, make good money and don't get sick". Now I had a few good memories and the experience that if I worked the same amount of hours in Uruguay I could have more assets. My womanizer father left us for a lover in 1966. The U.S is not what the government propaganda preaches to be, it's like most democracies in the world. Some people do good and some eat {!#%@}.
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

User avatar
Thorn
Regular Poster
Posts: 744
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:07 pm
Location: In your side.

Post by Thorn » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:36 pm

Fair enough, but it's no reason to attack people who are over here trying to get by with comments about Americans being arrogant, lazy, or ignorant.
"In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."
-S.J. Gould

Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

The manipulation of the U.S.citizens of America

Post by Skeptruth » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:56 pm

Thorn wrote:Fair enough, but it's no reason to attack people who are over here trying to get by with comments about Americans being arrogant, lazy, or ignorant.


Hi,Thorn, U.S. citizens in general are far from being, lazy,arrogant, or ignorant. The U.S. government controls and manipulates the information that we hear in the news media. The Internent is their worst enemy because the news comes from all over the world and not what is being "digested" by the U.S. government. During the Vietnam era the U.S.citizens were fed with all kinds of lies. Many U.S. vets have traveled to Vietnam and make peace with their former enemies. Donald Rumsfeld during the Regan era was setting up Saddam Hussein to be our ally
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
Our country has been administrated by an "evil empire" of politicians without scruples for many decades. The U.S. citizens are the victims of their actions.
http://www.serendipity.li/impeachment.htm
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

Ron L
Regular Poster
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:56 am

Re: The manipulation of the U.S.citizens of America

Post by Ron L » Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:34 am

Skeptruth wrote: Hi,Thorn, U.S. citizens in general are far from being, lazy,arrogant, or ignorant. The U.S. government controls and manipulates the information that we hear in the news media. The Internent is their worst enemy because the news comes from all over the world and not what is being "digested" by the U.S. government

I'm not Thorn, I don't play her or him on TV, and (BTW) I'm an old fart, older than you (damn young'ns at 57!)
But every government tries to control the dispersal of information. N. Korea is probably worst right now, China seems to be losing the grip; dunno who's next. The Web is a very good method of distribution; some information, some dis-information. But what is the point?

Skeptruth wrote: During the Vietnam era the U.S.citizens were fed with all kinds of lies. Many U.S. vets have traveled to Vietnam and make peace with their former enemies. Donald Rumsfeld during the Regan era was setting up Saddam Hussein to be our ally
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
Our country has been administrated by an "evil empire" of politicians without scruples for many decades. The U.S. citizens are the victims of their actions.
http://www.serendipity.li/impeachment.htm

I don't disagree with any of your comments or links, but, again, what is the point? Are you saying that Uraguay is the ideal? Or are you saying the the US gov't isn't the ideal?
In the first case, I wanna know, but in the second case, I just plain agree. Problem is, if Uraguay isn't the ideal, where do we aim? What do you propose?
You've sashayed from what the US founders envisioned to some sort of social-welfare state, and have yet to resolve the contradiction.
Thanks,
Ron L.

Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

Re: The manipulation of the U.S.citizens of America

Post by Skeptruth » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:50 am

Ron L wrote:
Skeptruth wrote: Hi,Thorn, U.S. citizens in general are far from being, lazy,arrogant, or ignorant. The U.S. government controls and manipulates the information that we hear in the news media. The Internent is their worst enemy because the news comes from all over the world and not what is being "digested" by the U.S. government

I'm not Thorn, I don't play her or him on TV, and (BTW) I'm an old fart, older than you (damn young'ns at 57!)
But every government tries to control the dispersal of information. N. Korea is probably worst right now, China seems to be losing the grip; dunno who's next. The Web is a very good method of distribution; some information, some dis-information. But what is the point?

Skeptruth wrote: During the Vietnam era the U.S.citizens were fed with all kinds of lies. Many U.S. vets have traveled to Vietnam and make peace with their former enemies. Donald Rumsfeld during the Regan era was setting up Saddam Hussein to be our ally
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
Our country has been administrated by an "evil empire" of politicians without scruples for many decades. The U.S. citizens are the victims of their actions.
http://www.serendipity.li/impeachment.htm

I don't disagree with any of your comments or links, but, again, what is the point? Are you saying that Uraguay is the ideal? Or are you saying the the US gov't isn't the ideal?
In the first case, I wanna know, but in the second case, I just plain agree. Problem is, if Uraguay isn't the ideal, where do we aim? What do you propose?
You've sashayed from what the US founders envisioned to some sort of social-welfare state, and have yet to resolve the contradiction.
Thanks,


Look, RonL, I was born in this country, Uruguay but like Tony Bennett's sentimental song: "I Left My Heart in San Francisco". I feel the same way.
Uruguay is not paradise is a small rural country with only 3 million inhabitants, lets not compare oranges with apples. I remember during the 60' and part of the 70's, Martin Luther King and other civil activists went out, most of them peacefully, and demonstrated that they had enough of discrimination and racism, that the Vietnam war was wrong.
I live most of my productive life in the U.S., like Thomas Jefferson said:

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion... We have had thirteen States independent for eleven years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half, for each State. What country before ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion?" --Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith, 1787. ME 6:372


I'm not talking taking arms in a violent way but lets march and let the government know that they're using our money, resources and our people selfishly without considering the U.S.citizens of America. It worked in the late 60's and 70's. Look around you, at the house market, food prices, low paying jobs, medical chaos and much more. These are priorities to be addressed. The people, my brothers/sisters are suffering and struggling while the U.S government has our nation on a deficit that can throw our country in the Dark Ages, sort of speak. As an example: Can you give logical explanations why the military has to triple its budget? Who do you think is going to end up paying the "upgrade" ? Do you think I'm the only U.S.citizen " bitching" about it ? Please read and comment:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/06/2 ... 23839.html
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

User avatar
DeusEx_Humana
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1194
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 3:55 am
Location: Houston

Post by DeusEx_Humana » Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:33 pm

Skeptruth the tactic you take on is not much different from right wingers claiming anyone who questions the Iraq war is unpatriotic. Its just an ad hominem attack, and your argument falls apart when you run into someone who does care, has thought about the issues, yet still holds different opinions from you.

Obviously false slogans like "the government controls the media" don't help your argument either. This very forum board is part of the media, and I did not have to present my post to the government for approval. The media is a multi-headed monster and no one controls it. Do you have any idea how oxymoronic it is to type "the government controls the media" on the internet?

Posts filled with such invective as you have demonstrated on this thread just tell me you do not have confidence in your arguments and just want to insult or troll. Have fun.

Skeptruth
Poster
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

Soldiers are not policemen

Post by Skeptruth » Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:29 am

DeusEx_Humana wrote:Skeptruth the tactic you take on is not much different from right wingers claiming anyone who questions the Iraq war is unpatriotic. Its just an ad hominem attack, and your argument falls apart when you run into someone who does care, has thought about the issues, yet still holds different opinions from you.

Obviously false slogans like "the government controls the media" don't help your argument either. This very forum board is part of the media, and I did not have to present my post to the government for approval. The media is a multi-headed monster and no one controls it. Do you have any idea how oxymoronic it is to type "the government controls the media" on the internet?

Posts filled with such invective as you have demonstrated on this thread just tell me you do not have confidence in your arguments and just want to insult or troll. Have fun.


Hi, DeusEx_Humana, after WWII the U.S.of America has engaged in half ass wars. Korea, Vietnam and lately Afganistan and Irak. The Bush administration utilized the media after 9/11 to star 2 wars Vietnam style that the only thing is bringing to the U.S. is death, heatred from most of the world, uncontrolable national debt, weakening the economy and multiplying our military expenses. We became the unwanted policemen of the world at the expense of the American people and the young men and women that give their young lives for a few U.S. citizens to drive Humvies.
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

User avatar
Paul Anthony
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2783
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:23 pm
Custom Title: The other god
Location: The desert

Post by Paul Anthony » Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:42 am

Hi Skeptruth, it's been awhile.

When last we spoke, we were in agreement but something has changed. You ARE ranting. You are also contradicting yourself. This is not the Skeptruth I used to know, so what has changed?

In case you've forgotten, I am 2 years older than you so we are from the same era. We've had many of the same experiences. I also spent years building a successful business, only to have it fail.

But I didn't run away. I survived bancruptcy and a divorce and rebuilt my life - all without bailing out.

I still write letters to the government and letters to the editors of newspapers and magazines. I am still trying to make a difference in the nation I believe in. You don't try. And you don't care about this nation.

Maybe if the rest of us change it into something you approve of, you'll come back! Well, don't bother. If you're not willing to fight for it, it's not your nation anymore.

Enjoy your life in Uruguay.
People who say ALWAYS and NEVER are usually wrong, part of the time.
Science answers questions, Philosophy questions answers.
Make sense, not war.