History Repeats in Afghanistan

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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:57 am

The link worked for me...........awhile back when I looked at it.

LOGIC..........BOYS. All the proof in the world at how bad the CIA or Pentagon is, is NON RESPONSIVE to a claim that the Taliban is too.

conflation. Its a sin.
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Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:01 am

Tom Palven wrote: War crimes?
Where are war crimes mentioned? Where was any evidence of CIA torture mentioned? Stop making up crap.

"Afghan strike forces overseen by the CIA are operating with little care for preventing civilian casualties,
How many CIA aimed airstrike deaths are mentioned in the article Tom Palven? (Seven)

"Those abuses are actively pushing people toward the Taliban, the officials say,"
Taliban has killed 31,000 civilians, closed all female schools and amputate limbs for petty crimes, Tom Palven. Why do you support Pakistan's controlled Taliban in Afghanistan? Why do you hate women?

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History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:15 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:01 am
Tom Palven wrote: War crimes?
Where are war crimes mentioned? Where was any evidence of CIA torture mentioned? Stop making up crap.
I didn't type the words "War Crimes." That is the title of the piece.

Could it be that history is repeating?
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ab ... &FORM=IGRE
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:39 am

Could be, but who knows, you just posted a link.
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:38 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:57 am
The link worked for me...........awhile back when I looked at it.

LOGIC..........BOYS. All the proof in the world at how bad the CIA or Pentagon is, is NON RESPONSIVE to a claim that the Taliban is too.

conflation. Its a sin.
Well, now, bobbo. Let's not be TOO harsh. Conflation is an error, but let's not call it a sin.

Otherwise, though, you are absolutely right, and I like the elegant way you phrased it. We are bad, but the other side is worse. We used to call that tu quoque in Latin class. (Roughly translated, "You're another.") It's one thing to apply this comparison on one's own turf. I fully agree that, if it were up to me, I'd rather have the western troops in my country than live under the Taliban. But who has the right to make that decision on behalf of the people of Afghanistan? Not I, Shirley.
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:22 pm

"The people of Afghanistan" are quite used to being ignored.
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:06 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:22 pm
"The people of Afghanistan" are quite used to being ignored.
Yup, if they weren't, they'd have gone crazy centuries ago.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:02 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:06 pm
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:22 pm
"The people of Afghanistan" are quite used to being ignored.
Yup, if they weren't, they'd have gone crazy centuries ago.
Thats just what they did. They call it "tribalism" but Just Look: its craaaaazy!!!
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Gord » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:47 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:06 pm
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:22 pm
"The people of Afghanistan" are quite used to being ignored.
Yup, if they weren't, they'd have gone crazy centuries ago.
I believe the Politically Correct term is jihadi.
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Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:51 pm

Tom Palven wrote: I didn't type the words "War Crimes." That is the title of the piece.
........which didn't mention one war crime other than Taliban's.

Do you still support Pakistan's Taliban and Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan as the "homeboys",

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History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:15 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:51 pm
Tom Palven wrote: I didn't type the words "War Crimes." That is the title of the piece.
........which didn't mention one war crime other than Taliban's.

Do you still support Pakistan's Taliban and Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan as the "homeboys",

Do you still beat your wife? Yes or no?

Bin Laden was a Saudi.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/ ... udi-arabia
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Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:13 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Do you still support Pakistan's Taliban and Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan as the "homeboys",
Tom Palven wrote:Do you still beat your wife? Yes or no?
I don't have a wife.
Tom Palven wrote:Bin Laden was a Saudi.
Pakistan's Taliban hid Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan before moving him to Pakistan, where the CIA located him.

Why are you so stupid?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:45 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:13 am
Tom Palven wrote:Bin Laden was a Saudi.
Pakistan's Taliban hid Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan before moving him to Pakistan, where the CIA located him.
:lol: :lol: :lol:


And how is this relevant to histroy repeating itself in Afghanistan?
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:55 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:45 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:13 am
Tom Palven wrote:Bin Laden was a Saudi.
Pakistan's Taliban hid Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan before moving him to Pakistan, where the CIA located him.
:lol: :lol: :lol:


And how is this relevant to histroy repeating itself in Afghanistan?


Osama was a millionaire construction guy. Drove lots of................................you KNOW what he drove, but still:
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:10 am

Tom Palven wrote: And how is this relevant to histroy repeating itself in Afghanistan?
You supported Pakistan's controlled Taliban as the "homeboys" in Afghanistan. Did you forget again?

Simple Test for Tom Palven

Who is NATO fighting in Afghanistan
1) The French city of Vichy ( as claimed by Tom Palven)
2) The Forth Reich ( as claimed by Tom Palven)
3) ISIL and Taliban (United Nations Resolution 1267)


Why are you so ignorant? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:30 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:10 am
Tom Palven wrote: And how is this relevant to histroy repeating itself in Afghanistan?
You supported Pakistan's controlled Taliban as the "homeboys" in Afghanistan. Did you forget again?

Simple Test for Tom Palven

Who is NATO fighting in Afghanistan
1) The French city of Vichy ( as claimed by Tom Palven)
2) The Forth Reich ( as claimed by Tom Palven)
3) ISIL and Taliban (United Nations Resolution 1267)


Why are you so ignorant? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Simple test for neoconservatives.

How does does The US invasion of Afghanistan compare with the US invasion of Vietnam?

Hint for Dan: Follow the money. Qui bono?
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Tom Palven is an idiot 2

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:03 am

Tom Palven wrote: Simple test for neoconservatives. How does does The US invasion of Afghanistan compare with the US invasion of Vietnam?
The South Vietnamese government invited the USA into Vietnam you complete idiot, as the French were withdrawing. It used to be called French Indochina.

In Afghanistan, your hero, Osama Bin Laden was being protected by your other heroes Taliban, so .....
"United Nations Security Council resolution 1267 was adopted unanimously on 15 October 1999. After recalling resolutions 1189 (1998), 1193 (1998) and 1214 (1998) on the situation in Afghanistan, the Council designated Osama bin Laden and associates as terrorists and established a sanctions regime to cover individuals and entities associated with Al-Qaida, Osama bin Laden and/or the Taliban wherever located



Why are you so stupid and ignorant? :lol: :lol:

Do you think what Osama Bin Laden did to the USA on 9/11, 2001 was a good thing or a bad thing?

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History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:26 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:03 am
Tom Palven wrote: Simple test for neoconservatives. How does does The US invasion of Afghanistan compare with the US invasion of Vietnam?
The South Vietnamese government invited the USA into Vietnam you complete idiot, as the French were withdrawing. It used to be called French Indochina.

The Vietnam War was a continuation of the French colonial war with the US taking over for the defeated French army.
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:47 pm

Once again: TP I agree with you. The notion that any nation "invites" another one in to take over, dare I say run their country?, is childish nonsense. Ha, ha....its like saying the native indians living around that lake in Columbia invited the French then the USA in to build themselves a canal.

Matt takes stupid down a few levels. He does defend the status quo/powers that be in a way few do. Must have something to do with how his perpetual interest is calculated?
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:28 am

Tom Palven wrote: Simple test for neoconservatives. How does does The US invasion of Afghanistan compare with the US invasion of Vietnam?
Matthew Ellard wrote: The South Vietnamese government invited the USA into Vietnam you complete idiot, as the French were withdrawing. It used to be called French Indochina.
Tom Palven wrote:The Vietnam War was a continuation of the French colonial war with the US taking over for the defeated French army.
So you now agree and understand that the USA did not invade Vietnam, but was invited in by the South Vietnamese government after the French left. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You now know that the Afghan government invited the USA in under UN resolution 1267 after Taliban attacked the Afghan government to set up an Islamic state and protect Osama Bin Laden after 9/11

Why are you so ignorant and stupid?

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History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:06 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:28 am
So you now agree...

"Mr. Ellard," sir, we agree on nothing.

But I do agree with bobbo that you take stupid down a few levels
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:28 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Once again: TP I agree with you. The notion that any nation "invites" another one in to take over , dare I say run their country?, is childish nonsense.
Who said "take over"? :lol: :lol: :lol:

So you want to hand East Timor back to Indonesia after Indonesia invaded?

I assume you are also against South Korea, Croatia and Kosovo existing?

I assume you are fine with Germany invading Poland and Poland seeking help?

Have you ever heard of the United Nations? No?

What about NATO guarantees when a member in invaded? Do you want to dissolve NATO?

Why were you in the USAF delivering 55mm howitzer shells to Israel then?
:lol: :lol:

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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:13 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:28 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Once again: TP I agree with you. The notion that any nation "invites" another one in to take over , dare I say run their country?, is childish nonsense.
Who said "take over"? :lol: :lol: :lol:
1. So you want to hand East Timor back to Indonesia after Indonesia invaded? /// Not responsive. The "invitation" is a front end position....not to be confused with any BULL-dozing on the results/exit. You see the difference?

I assume you are also against South Korea, Croatia and Kosovo existing? /// Based on what goal?

I assume you are fine with Germany invading Poland and Poland seeking help? //// A good line from Vonnegut: 'Billy was as spastic in time as he was in space." Are you referring to the Start of WW2?==>Why. I don't recall Poland "inviting" Germany in........or are you crediting that Farmer 2 miles inside the border. The claim of invite was used in the Anschluss wasn't it? Just as Russia claims invite into Crimea?? Its always referred to "AS A PRETEXT." You know what a Pretext is don't you Matt. You post as if you don't. It the most common defense in Date Rape as well.

Have you ever heard of the United Nations? No? ///Yes.

What about NATO guarantees when a member in invaded? /// What do treaty obligations have to do Date Rape?

Do you want to dissolve NATO? /// No. I think everyone should join.

Why were you in the USAF delivering 55mm howitzer shells to Israel then? [/color] :lol: :lol: //// I was just following orders.

Matt: you have no game when you are contesting woo. Only the tiniest bit of stress...........
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:15 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote:Once again: TP (Tom Palven) I agree with you. The notion that any nation "invites" another one in , is childish nonsense.
No Bobbo. I see that you are a total idiot. I can list example after example proving showing how stupid your claim is. You simply don't know any history.

France invited England to assist it when Germany invaded in WWII. It did not mean that France invited England to take over France,

The South Korean government invited the members of the UN to assist it. It did not mean the South Korean government asked the united nations to take over South Korea.

The South Vietnamese government asked the USA, Australia and New Zealand to assist it when North Vietnam invaded. It did not mean that South Vietnam asked those countries to take over South Vietnam.

Now for the big laugh at Bobbo.
Matthew Ellard wrote:Why were you in the USAF delivering 55mm howitzer shells to Israel then?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote:I was just following orders.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote: I fought in the Yom Kippur War.
Really? I didn't know the USA was fighting in the Yom Kippur War. Did Israel invite the USA to do that and take over the Israeli government?

Give up Bobbo. You are terrible at this.

////////////////////

By now the penny is dropping for Tom Palven and Bobbo that they are on different teams. Stormfront VS Jewish nationalism and annexation through warfare. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:21 am

All good examples Matt.

You avoid the distinctions made: treaty obligation mentioned expressly, and the always popular Pretext from puppet entities only referred to by Anschluss but I think fairly referenced and you ignore this too. Your examples don't include the more entirely made up excuse of a single person asking for help as referenced by the single farmer. will you include such an example in your next list??

your Big Laugh evidently exemplifies your lack of appreciation for other real world interests as captured in the Greatest Book I Know: Catch-22. Because while I did deliver shells to one country and medical supplies to the other (It was Israel and Lebanon) I mentioned Joseph's Hellers great work to you as my own recognition that it was more reportage of the banality and evil of war than it was a work of fiction. Still true today if you have what it takes to look past Gubment propaganda. Can you do that Matt????? Yom Kippur as you stated is not an example of anyone being invited in but rather the opportunity for the Military/Industrial interests to make money off war. You probably don't think that exists either?

Flail on..............
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:18 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: All good examples Matt. You avoid the distinctions made: treaty obligation mentioned expressly, and the always popular
A treaty is a mutual invitation.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I fought in the Yom Kippur War.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Kippur as you stated is not an example of anyone being invited in but rather the opportunity for the Military/Industrial interests to make money off war.
How was a surprise attack by Arab States a plan by USA manufacturers to make money?

Are you claiming General Dynamic Weapons Systems told the Arab States to attack Israel?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:10 am

Matt: You really have fallen apart.......that........OR....your near total inability to be relevant doesn't really show when choosing the Woo and Denier targets you do. So bad, I almost prefer to think you are in some fugue playing out a contrarian sense of humor?........Ha, ha.........no, I don't quite think that. FOLLOW MY OWN RULE: taking people at faced value unless evidence is strong to the contrary: BORING to respond at this level, Painful given what I took to be your skills:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:18 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: All good examples Matt. You avoid the distinctions made: treaty obligation mentioned expressly, and the always popular
A treaty is a mutual invitation.
First step of crazy is to make up your own definition or pretend words mean what they don't. This is why I so often say to "READ THE DICTIONARY." I'll just state the common usage: "Treaty OBLIGATIONS"...NOT invitations that can be turned down. Obligations Matt. READ THE DICTIONARY........unless you are posing. If Posing: Stop it.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:18 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I fought in the Yom Kippur War.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Kippur as you stated is not an example of anyone being invited in but rather the opportunity for the Military/Industrial interests to make money off war.
How was a surprise attack by Arab States a plan by USA manufacturers to make money?
Learn to Read Matt. Palven has shown this all too common error/manipulation/excrescence on your part several times and corrected you.........yet you continue to eggregiously and OBVIOUSLY misquote people. Well, misquote is not accurate: rather misstate? WHAT I SAID WAS: "....an OPPORTUNITY to make money...." NOT that they orchestrated surprise attacks. Just plain stoopid.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:18 am
Are you claiming General Dynamic Weapons Systems told the Arab States to attack Israel? :lol: :lol: :lol:
No. Not even near. Take your crazy plane back to the hangar. Time for an overhaul.
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:20 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Matt: You really have fallen apart..
No Bobbo. I pointed out your idiocy in claiming the Yom Kippur War was a conspiracy of the1961 Military Industrial complex to sell weapons.

Firstly the Arabs used Soviet equipment.
Secondly the Arabs were not told to attack Israel by USA arms manufacturers,
Thirdly, Israel used a mixture of French, British, US and other countries equipment.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:21 am

derp.
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:24 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:20 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Matt: You really have fallen apart..
No Bobbo. I pointed out your idiocy in claiming the Yom Kippur War was a conspiracy of the1961 Military Industrial complex to sell weapons.

Define: Opportunity
Define: Conspiracy

Observe: The Differences.
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:38 am

Thaks Oleg. Its not that hard to recognize a true invitation, usually of limited time and scope, from a PRETEXT for usurpation, occupation, and complete control. To be fair, perhaps USA does make that a bit more difficult as we tend to lose our wars of hegemonic initiation and go home. Its been interesting to me to follow China's growing presence across Africa. 200 or 150 years ago it would have been by invitation and colonization. Today, its by business/trade/PURCHASE.

Always fun to note how times change, and don't change at all. Distinctions and Commonalities.
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:05 am

I forgot to mention that the Yom Kippur War only lasted for 19 days, which makes Bobbo's claim that it was an opportunity for the "1961 military industrial complex" even more comical. The USA airforce re-supply of ordinance during Operation Nickel Grass was using US existing stocks.

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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:09 am

Yes Matt, thats how it works. Use up what you got..........order more.

Seems too simple to miss.
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:22 am

Before lost to time zone differences and what not, a nice review of Nickle Grass is here:

https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/o ... -execution

THE POINT of Matts dragging up our first exchange some years ago was not to criticize the MIC but then and now to praise Catch-22 because it was so fresh in my memory as I engaged in its parachutes into cotton balls exchanges by.......Milo Milobender? I thought it weird then, and still do, and another few hours on google does not reveal that USA did in fact provide support to: BOTH SIDES OF THE WAR. Very Catch-22. Very MIC.

Reading the Link above, I see how complicated the Yom Kippur war was. I can see the multiple interests in the war being served by supplying both sides. Happy if it had been medical to both sides, but artillery to one and medical to the other at least makes sense. Ha, ha..but I guess some kind of reality still prevents active sales of weaponry to both sides???.......have to give a period of deniability to pull that one off. Very instructive all these wars by PROXY. Not "honest" wars.....and China is whipping everyones' butts RIGHT NOW.......so expertly..........we don't even recognize it.

.............."and so it goes.........."
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:05 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Yes Matt, thats how it works. Use up what you got..........order more.
So why didn't Israel order any more modern arms? Are you claiming the 1961 military industrial complex conspiracy is justified by a handfull of aircraft flying in 1950's ammunition that the USA had to pay for itself, over a five day period, because Israel ran out?

You do remember claiming you flew in 55mm artillery shells?


Don't you think the 200 nukes that the USA gave to Israel before the war, that Israel pulled out to use a week after the war started, would be a bit more significant?

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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:57 am

Stupid.
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:55 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:57 am
Stupid.
Well stupid would be 55mm shells to enrich, as you claim, the military industrial complex, when the USA hasn't produced any since just after WWII. It simply stockpiled them as the West Germans still used a 55mm cannon.

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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:17 am

The CIA and British MI6 overthrew a secular socialist democracy in Iran with Operation Ajax in 1953, paving the way for an Islamic republic:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/ ... 22584.html
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:08 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:17 am
The CIA and British MI6 overthrew a secular socialist democracy in Iran with Operation Ajax in 1953, paving the way for an Islamic republic:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/ ... 22584.html
Yeah, I do not understand at all why the US thought this was a good idea at all.
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Re: History Repeats in Afghanistan

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:16 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:08 pm
Yeah, I do not understand at all why the US thought this was a good idea at all.
FTL which has nothing to do with Operation Ajax in 1953 but shares the same frailty: ""The problem with the US is that it failed to, and is unwilling to accept countries and people to assert their sovereignty." Fairly easy to understand? Wrong headed...but easy to understand. Like most Empires.
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