America under Fire

Where have we been?
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flyer1
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Post by flyer1 » Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:26 am

flyer1 looks at America as the "democracy's heaven".The U.S.A. government is playing a dangerous game, greedily, selfishly and carelessly, by lying big to the American people for a long time.


And where, exactly, did I say that? Where, exactly, did I imply that? If you ever bothered to read my other posts, you'd know I slam this country every chance I get.

What do you expect me to do? Pack up and move to China? Would it please you if I became a "woman without a country"?

I, however, stay in America and do what I can to rectify the situation.

For the rest: U Pizdeet kak Trotsky.
"Have you seen my people, magician?" said the unicorn. "They are wild and sea-white, like me."
Schmendrick shook his head. "I have never seen anyone like you, not while I was awake."

Skeptruth
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America is not the cradle of democracy

Post by Skeptruth » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:20 pm

I'm 57 years old and lived 36 of those years in the U.S.A. Finally my American born wife and myself an uruguayan-american moved out of the old U.S. tired of working long hours in my small dental lab ( 40 years experience). America is not the shadow of what used to be. Illegal immigration, high cost of everything, made us leave for good. I rather work in Europe than looking jobs or running my business again for the monies that I earned for 6/14 hour days. I express to many of you that brag by saying: "I rather be in America's democracy than anywhere else". I paid my dues by serving in the Armed Forces during the VietNam era. After I was trained to kill "charlies" with a variety of weapons I was put in jail for carrying a registered loaded gun in my car. It happened in a regular check point stop a block away from my home. The Ventura Sheriff deputy went thru my car and found my Smith & Wesson in my lunch box with my loaded clip inside. Yes, I didn't have as they called "concealed weapon license". I end-up with a $50,000.00 bail which I had to pay 10% to the bailer to never see that money again, 9 months of stressful court fighting, about $8,000.00 dollars in attorneys fees, 10 days jail time, permanent loss of the gun and 3 years probation. So the U.S. constitution gives the right to bear guns and some states do give you a permit but I was in liberal California. I was allowed to use the most sofisticated weapons to kill America's enemies but my military record didn't count. I had a business and I was robbed 3 time at my business and worked long hours but no mercy.First "offense" no priors of anything. I closed my business in 2001 moved to Homestead, FL and at the age of 55 I say F. this country and we left for good !!! America create it's own enemies and democracy is not real, I live in Uruguay and I went to a gunsmith and I bought a Colt.38 six shooter. I carry it on my waist or back pack, I had the courage to show it to a police officer and say: "just in case". I shoot my gun in my back yard and my neighbors all know it, no problem. In this country I feel in the land of the free, in America the land of the controled. Love it or leave it they said, that's what we did !!!
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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America is not the cradle of democracy

Post by Skeptruth » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:27 pm

I'm 57 years old and lived 36 of those years in the U.S.A. Finally my American born wife and myself an uruguayan-american moved out of the old U.S. tired of working long hours in my small dental lab ( 40 years experience). America is not the shadow of what used to be. Illegal immigration, high cost of everything, made us leave for good. I rather work in Europe than looking jobs or running my business again for the monies that I earned for 6/14 hour days. I express to many of you that brag by saying: "I rather be in America's democracy than anywhere else". I paid my dues by serving in the Armed Forces during the VietNam era. After I was trained to kill "charlies" with a variety of weapons I was put in jail for carrying a registered loaded gun in my car. It happened in a regular check point stop a block away from my home. The Ventura Sheriff deputy went thru my car and found my Smith & Wesson in my lunch box with my loaded clip inside. Yes, I didn't have as they called "concealed weapon license". I end-up with a $50,000.00 bail which I had to pay 10% to the bailer to never see that money again, 9 months of stressful court fighting, about $8,000.00 dollars in attorneys fees, 10 days jail time, permanent loss of the gun and 3 years probation. So the U.S. constitution gives the right to bear guns and some states do give you a permit but I was in liberal California. I was allowed to use the most sofisticated weapons to kill America's enemies but my military record didn't count. I had a business and I was robbed 3 time at my business and worked long hours but no mercy.First "offense" no priors of anything. I closed my business in 2001 moved to Homestead, FL and at the age of 55 I say F. this country and we left for good !!! America create it's own enemies and democracy is not real, I live in Uruguay and I went to a gunsmith and I bought a Colt.38 six shooter. I carry it on my waist or back pack, I had the courage to show it to a police officer and say: "just in case". I shoot my gun in my back yard and my neighbors all know it, no problem. In this country I feel in the land of the free, in America the land of the controled. Love it or leave it they said, that's what we did !!!
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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Re: America is not the cradle of democracy

Post by Andy68 » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:32 pm

Skeptruth wrote:I live in Uruguay and I went to a gunsmith and I bought a Colt.38 six shooter. I carry it on my waist or back pack, I had the courage to show it to a police officer and say: "just in case". I shoot my gun in my back yard and my neighbors all know it, no problem. In this country I feel in the land of the free, in America the land of the controled. Love it or leave it they said, that's what we did !!!

And I, for one, applaud your decision.

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Re: America is not the cradle of democracy

Post by Ron L » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:45 am

Skeptruth wrote:I'm 57 years old and lived 36 of those years in the U.S.A. Finally my American born wife and myself an uruguayan-american moved out of the old U.S. tired of working long hours in my small dental lab ( 40 years experience). America is not the shadow of what used to be. Illegal immigration, high cost of everything, made us leave for good. I rather work in Europe than looking jobs or running my business again for the monies that I earned for 6/14 hour days. I express to many of you that brag by saying: "I rather be in America's democracy than anywhere else".

I don't know your specific circumstances, but in general 'high costs' are reflected in high earnings. Maybe not in this case. Your point about illegal immigration is well taken in that it is an un-solved problem, and doesn't look to be solved soon.
If I had experience with and the ability to easily move into (or back to) another country, that might be an option; don't know much about Uruaguay, except that it's supposed to be very pretty.
I also dunno whether your comment on "Europe" is true; in France as an example, you'll look long and hard to find a permanent job.

Skeptruth wrote:I paid my dues by serving in the Armed Forces during the VietNam era. After I was trained to kill "charlies" with a variety of weapons I was put in jail for carrying a registered loaded gun in my car. It happened in a regular check point stop a block away from my home. The Ventura Sheriff deputy went thru my car and found my Smith & Wesson in my lunch box with my loaded clip inside. Yes, I didn't have as they called "concealed weapon license". I end-up with a $50,000.00 bail which I had to pay 10% to the bailer to never see that money again, 9 months of stressful court fighting, about $8,000.00 dollars in attorneys fees, 10 days jail time, permanent loss of the gun and 3 years probation. So the U.S. constitution gives the right to bear guns and some states do give you a permit but I was in liberal California. I was allowed to use the most sofisticated weapons to kill America's enemies but my military record didn't count. I had a business and I was robbed 3 time at my business and worked long hours but no mercy.First "offense" no priors of anything. I closed my business in 2001 moved to Homestead, FL and at the age of 55 I say F. this country and we left for good !!! America create it's own enemies and democracy is not real, I live in Uruguay and I went to a gunsmith and I bought a Colt.38 six shooter. I carry it on my waist or back pack, I had the courage to show it to a police officer and say: "just in case". I shoot my gun in my back yard and my neighbors all know it, no problem. In this country I feel in the land of the free, in America the land of the controled.

As one who believes the 2nd amendment says what it says, I'm sorry you ran afoul of gun control laws. Without knowing what you look like I sure hope it wasn't a 'selective' enforcement, which is one of the dangers of this sort of regulation; blacks and those with a bit more 'color' tend to get 'way more attention in this instance.

Skeptruth wrote:Love it or leave it they said, that's what we did !!!

Again, no gripes. Hong Kong has always attracted me, but it's a bit late to learn Mandarin.
Thanks,
Ron L.

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Re: America is not the cradle of democracy

Post by Skeptruth » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:13 pm

Ron L wrote:
Skeptruth wrote:I'm 57 years old and lived 36 of those years in the U.S.A. Finally my American born wife and myself an uruguayan-american moved out of the old U.S. tired of working long hours in my small dental lab ( 40 years experience). America is not the shadow of what used to be. Illegal immigration, high cost of everything, made us leave for good. I rather work in Europe than looking jobs or running my business again for the monies that I earned for 6/14 hour days. I express to many of you that brag by saying: "I rather be in America's democracy than anywhere else".

I don't know your specific circumstances, but in general 'high costs' are reflected in high earnings. Maybe not in this case. Your point about illegal immigration is well taken in that it is an un-solved problem, and doesn't look to be solved soon.
If I had experience with and the ability to easily move into (or back to) another country, that might be an option; don't know much about Uruaguay, except that it's supposed to be very pretty.
I also dunno whether your comment on "Europe" is true; in France as an example, you'll look long and hard to find a permanent job.

Skeptruth wrote:I paid my dues by serving in the Armed Forces during the VietNam era. After I was trained to kill "charlies" with a variety of weapons I was put in jail for carrying a registered loaded gun in my car. It happened in a regular check point stop a block away from my home. The Ventura Sheriff deputy went thru my car and found my Smith & Wesson in my lunch box with my loaded clip inside. Yes, I didn't have as they called "concealed weapon license". I end-up with a $50,000.00 bail which I had to pay 10% to the bailer to never see that money again, 9 months of stressful court fighting, about $8,000.00 dollars in attorneys fees, 10 days jail time, permanent loss of the gun and 3 years probation. So the U.S. constitution gives the right to bear guns and some states do give you a permit but I was in liberal California. I was allowed to use the most sofisticated weapons to kill America's enemies but my military record didn't count. I had a business and I was robbed 3 time at my business and worked long hours but no mercy.First "offense" no priors of anything. I closed my business in 2001 moved to Homestead, FL and at the age of 55 I say F. this country and we left for good !!! America create it's own enemies and democracy is not real, I live in Uruguay and I went to a gunsmith and I bought a Colt.38 six shooter. I carry it on my waist or back pack, I had the courage to show it to a police officer and say: "just in case". I shoot my gun in my back yard and my neighbors all know it, no problem. In this country I feel in the land of the free, in America the land of the controled.

As one who believes the 2nd amendment says what it says, I'm sorry you ran afoul of gun control laws. Without knowing what you look like I sure hope it wasn't a 'selective' enforcement, which is one of the dangers of this sort of regulation; blacks and those with a bit more 'color' tend to get 'way more attention in this instance.

Skeptruth wrote:Love it or leave it they said, that's what we did !!!

Again, no gripes. Hong Kong has always attracted me, but it's a bit late to learn Mandarin.
Thanks,


Ron L, I want to thank you for your response and I respect your opinion on the matter. My posting: "America is not the cradle of democracy" is based on the U.S.A propaganda on human rights, democracy, peacekeepers, freedom of speech and news, medicine etc.
On the medical issue, America has one of the best medical facilities, doctors and hospital on the planet. How available is their "marvelous" technology to all Americans and at what cost ? Is it affordable, is it the safest in the world ?

More telling are attributes of health care delivery that make it inefficient, foremost among which is the reliance on third parties-insurance companies and the government--to pay most medical costs. Because patients pay an average of 23 cents on each dollar of medical expense, there is only a weak linkage between consumers' use of medical resources and the payments made by them. When the direct linkage between use of medical facilities and payment is broken, consumers lose their incentive to economize.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... i_16805714


November 4, 2005
Not only do Americans pay much more for medical treatment than anyone else in the world, they also bear the brunt of the most medical errors, according to a survey covering the USA, Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand and the United Kingdom. Almost 7,000 patients were consulted.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2 ... rrors.html


Take your time and as a good skeptics read this article: The United States of America: Why do they hate us so much?
If you read the other side of U.S. government propaganda and listen to the rest of the world and you can put you nationalism aside maybe you can have a balance understanding of what reality is.
http://www.isometry.com/usahate.html


If you don't read it, keep dreaming, one day will be a 3rd world country or maybe 4th in the world. Our standard of living is going to hell, so everything else due to our arrogancy.
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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cmarotta99
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Post by cmarotta99 » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:11 pm

Skeptruth wrote:

America is not the shadow of what used to be


In this country I feel in the land of the free, in America the land of the controled


America create it's own enemies and democracy is not real


America is not the cradle of democracy" is based on the U.S.A propaganda on human rights, democracy, peacekeepers, freedom of speech and news, medicine etc.


Our standard of living is going to hell, so everything else due to our arrogancy.


Let me tell you something, Hoss - there are more things right about this country than there are wrong with it. I'm sick and tired of hearing people trash our country this way. If you hate America that much, fine, stay where you're happy. I'm happy and proud of living in America.
The temptation to form premature theories upon insufficient data, Watson, is the bane of our profession.

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America is going down

Post by Skeptruth » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:58 pm

cmarotta99 wrote:Skeptruth wrote:

America is not the shadow of what used to be


In this country I feel in the land of the free, in America the land of the controled


America create it's own enemies and democracy is not real


America is not the cradle of democracy" is based on the U.S.A propaganda on human rights, democracy, peacekeepers, freedom of speech and news, medicine etc.


Our standard of living is going to hell, so everything else due to our arrogancy.


Let me tell you something, Hoss - there are more things right about this country than there are wrong with it. I'm sick and tired of hearing people trash our country this way. If you hate America that much, fine, stay where you're happy. I'm happy and proud of living in America.


The Roman Empire had the same attitude, their people didn't give a damn about the rest of the world. We have to cooperate and be part of the rest of the world instead of trying, I'm using this as an example: to impose football and beisbol while the rest of the world plays soccer. Do you get the message ?
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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Re: America is going down

Post by Ron L » Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:01 am

Skeptruth wrote: We have to cooperate and be part of the rest of the world instead of trying, I'm using this as an example: to impose football and beisbol while the rest of the world plays soccer. Do you get the message ?

Well, *that* doesn't help your argument. The US doesn't seem to be very effective 'imposing' sports on others.
Folks, words like "imposing", "exploiting", "imperialism", etc *have* meanings. Inventing new definitions to back your cause doesn't help; it just makes the words meaningless.
Thanks,
Ron L.

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Post by flyer1 » Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:58 am

No, I don't get the message. And Rome was the known world at the time; why wouldn't they be arrogant about it?

Are you suggesting that America become more like the rest of the world? That we stop funding foreign aid, stop sending food to starving nations, stop playing our national sports, ignore everyone else's problems and become rabidly isolationist?

I'm not going to commit suicide because I'm American. I like it here. If you like it somewhere else, fine, stay there.
"Have you seen my people, magician?" said the unicorn. "They are wild and sea-white, like me."
Schmendrick shook his head. "I have never seen anyone like you, not while I was awake."

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America's isolation

Post by Skeptruth » Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:30 am

flyer1 wrote:No, I don't get the message. And Rome was the known world at the time; why wouldn't they be arrogant about it?

Are you suggesting that America become more like the rest of the world? That we stop funding foreign aid, stop sending food to starving nations, stop playing our national sports, ignore everyone else's problems and become rabidly isolationist?

I'm not going to commit suicide because I'm American. I like it here. If you like it somewhere else, fine, stay there.


Hi, Flyer1, like any typical american born nacionalist you give a damn about the rest of the world and why they hate us so much. 9/11 and other terrorists attacks didn't happen just because, While you're sitting behind your computer do some research like I do. Ask yourself:

Why are looking at us "different" and american soldiers have to be dying in a continuous basis, fighting around the world to "protect" our county?.

I like to listen both sides of the story and as an American living overseas I can hear the "other side" I recommend you to read, if you didn't:The United States of America: Why do they hate us so much?
http://www.isometry.com/usahate.html
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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Post by UseYourNoodle » Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:48 pm

Since war is definitely not pro life why do all the conservatives like it so much? Is there much difference between a pre-emptive war and abortion?
It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money so long as you have got it. EDWIN WAY TEALE

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Post by UseYourNoodle » Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:46 am

Doctor X wrote:The unborn are not guilty of a crime. I am certainly not aware of a fetus that has slaughtered millions.

This is why such arguments fail to suade conservatives. It is sort of like trying to argue that "Pro-Choicers" support murdering children.

--J.D.


How many innocent lives have been lost in this bogus pre-emptive war in Iraq supported by so many pro-life republicans? Going to war based on nothing more than the fear of what you think some other nation might do is a scary proposition to me for it certainly gives the rest of the world justification to invade us at any time based on their fear of what they think we might do. How long until we are the vunerable ones? I wonder how long we can continue to throw hundreds of billions of dollars down the toilet supporting our war machine before the bottom falls out. Couldn't that money have been used in far more productive ways to advance our nation's security than installing a democracy in Iraq that will probably last no longer than our occupation?
It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money so long as you have got it. EDWIN WAY TEALE

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Post by Ron L » Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:58 pm

UseYourNoodle wrote: How many innocent lives have been lost in this bogus pre-emptive war in Iraq supported by so many pro-life republicans?

You mean those folks like John Kerry and Diane Feinstein?
Thanks,
Ron L.

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Post by UseYourNoodle » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:27 pm

Ron L wrote:
UseYourNoodle wrote: How many innocent lives have been lost in this bogus pre-emptive war in Iraq supported by so many pro-life republicans?

You mean those folks like John Kerry and Diane Feinstein?
Thanks,


I guess I should have said after the WMD propaganda was shown to be lies.
It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money so long as you have got it. EDWIN WAY TEALE

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Post by Ron L » Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:51 am

UseYourNoodle wrote:
Ron L wrote:
UseYourNoodle wrote: How many innocent lives have been lost in this bogus pre-emptive war in Iraq supported by so many pro-life republicans?

You mean those folks like John Kerry and Diane Feinstein?
Thanks,


I guess I should have said after the WMD propaganda was shown to be lies.

Well, that would leave you in the same position; those who support the war are not necessarily "pro-life republicans". Falsely equating one with the other makes your argument worthless.
Are you arguing about the war or "pro-life republicans"?
Thanks,
Ron L.

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Post by rrichar911 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:51 am

I guess I should have said after the WMD propaganda was shown to be lies.



Did you miss the statment given by the #1 and #2 in charge of Saddams air force?

We took the seat out of two passenger planes, loaded WMD's in them and flew them to Syria. Others we dumped in the Indian ocean.

You also must have missed all the WMD's and evidence of, we did find in Iraq. Which include, botchalism toxin, chemical and biological war heads, mustard gas, serin gas, nuclear centrifuge, yellow cake, long range missles over the UN limit, to name a few.
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Post by rrichar911 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:02 am

How many innocent lives have been lost in this bogus pre-emptive war in Iraq supported by so many pro-life republicans?


When diverse terrorist organizations decided to have a summitt meating, in the late 90's, they chose to have it in Baghdad.

We found 3 terrorist training camps in Iraq.

We found in the documents of Saddams secret service offices, numerous communications between Iraq officials and al-Quaeda officials.

We have Saddam on tape talking to his top government officials, stating that he planned to advance terrorist attacks on the US, via a proxy.

Saddam furnished safe haven for diverse terrorist groups, provided training, medical services, lodging, equipment, and money. He even told us how much money, $25,000 for every terrorist suicide bomber.

How people create alternate universes of perceptions to live in, is beyond me. Actually it is not beyond me, but I still find it hard to believe that people can kid themselves to such an extent.

Pro life Republicans have the capacity to distinguish bewteen, innocent babys and guilty murdorers. Justice is the difference, but radical left wingers do not seem to know what justice is, as they call it revenge, even though Justice and revenge are just about as far from one another as God is to the human ego.
Last edited by rrichar911 on Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rrichar911 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:13 am

Going to war based on nothing more than the fear of what you think some other nation might do is a scary proposition to me for it certainly gives the rest of the world justification to invade us at any time based on their fear of what they think we might do.


We did not go to war based on an unfounded fear of what some nation might do. We were attacked, and had numerous sources of information to suport the ascertion that Saddam suported the attackers, including Saddam himself.

We now have even more information to suport the claim that Saddam suported terrorist, as if it was even needed.

I cannot escape noticing that secularist seem to have a desire for self destruction. Whether it be the ~ 50 million people killed in Russia by Stalin, i.e. killing his own, or the 50 million killed in China by Mao, i.e. killing his own, or the self proclaimed countries of the EU which are not producing enough children to perpetuate their race, or cannot manage an economy a productivity good enough to get the unemployment rate much lower than 10%, and in some cases its higher than 10%, or the secular left in America, who find eronious facts to believe, so that they will not have to bother defending against terrorist. There seems to be a self destructive desire there.
What really intrest me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the universe ~ Albert Einstein

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Post by rrichar911 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:29 am

The way the left gathers their facts is like this.

Lets send Wilson to Niger to debunk this absurd notion that Saddam was trying to by yellow cake.

Mr Wilson to x prime minister of Niger. Did Saddam send anyone down here to ty and buy yellow cake.

PM, yes, that was my impresson.

Wilson to minister of mines. same question

M of Mines, same answer.

Wilson to CIA, the x prime minsister and x minister of mines, say they think saddam was trying to buy yellow cake. but they didn't sell him any.

Wilson to left wing media.

Bush made up the whole thing, Saddam didn't buy any yellow cake.

How dishonest can one get?

The radical left then has no doubt that Bush is a liar, and spread propaganda.

Problem is, what Bush said, Wilson confirmed.

But why should we expect any more from the left? They have learned the art of propaganda well, use it to create preceptions, which in reality may exist in another universe, problem is we live in this one.
What really intrest me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the universe ~ Albert Einstein

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Re: America's isolation

Post by flyer1 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:37 am

Skeptruth wrote:
flyer1 wrote:No, I don't get the message. And Rome was the known world at the time; why wouldn't they be arrogant about it?

Are you suggesting that America become more like the rest of the world? That we stop funding foreign aid, stop sending food to starving nations, stop playing our national sports, ignore everyone else's problems and become rabidly isolationist?

I'm not going to commit suicide because I'm American. I like it here. If you like it somewhere else, fine, stay there.


Hi, Flyer1, like any typical american born nacionalist you give a damn about the rest of the world and why they hate us so much. 9/11 and other terrorists attacks didn't happen just because, While you're sitting behind your computer do some research like I do. Ask yourself:

Why are looking at us "different" and american soldiers have to be dying in a continuous basis, fighting around the world to "protect" our county?.

I like to listen both sides of the story and as an American living overseas I can hear the "other side" I recommend you to read, if you didn't:The United States of America: Why do they hate us so much?
http://www.isometry.com/usahate.html


Don't arrogate yourself. You're right, I don't give a damn about the world, that's why I support those conservative, isolationist groups like Amnesty International and Doctors Without Borders. Oh, yeah, and that little group called the United Nations. And I never read anything to know why Islam hates us, although somehow I've learned that radical Islam thinks progressiveness itself is by definition wrong, that they believe that the goal of America is to wipe out all Muslims and replace them with Jews, that they blame us for the Saudis getting all the money while Iran and Iraq starve, that we have repeatedly (and repeatedly) screwed them while pretending we're helping them--when all we've been doing is helping our own oil interests, and other minor details I could of course have never actually learned.

Why do people hate America? Well, it could be because we run roughshod over other people's cultures and beliefs, because we assume everyone besides Americans are somehow inferior, because we offer the carrot of diplomacy along with the stick of military might, because our foreign aid always comes with attached strings the size of high-tension wires, because our foreign policy boils down to "US good, Islam bad";

And because expatriates like you benefit from America for a few years and then go home and badmouth our country to everyone who will listen. You are not an American, you are an Uruguayan, so stop saying "us" all the time. Answer your own question: Why do YOU hate America so much?
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Post by UseYourNoodle » Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:37 pm

We did not go to war based on an unfounded fear of what some nation might do. We were attacked - rrichar911

Iraq never did a single thing to us that could be considered an act of war. To the contrary, the U.N. inspectors had full access to anywhere they wanted to search in the country for weapons prior to our attack. I can understand you falling for the WMD propaganda in the beginning but to still hold that view is about as silly as believing in the invisible alpha male living in the sky! If we were attacked by Iraq as you claim why did we go to the United Nations seeking approval prior to our invasion? We didn't even think of doing that when we went after the Taliban over 9/11 when we actually were attacked. No country that gets attacked goes to the U.N. over a several month period promoting its case for war using fear and propaganda tactics seeking permission to retaliate.
I also know of no other instance where a preemptive attack on another nation was used simply for regime change. If that is not a violation of international law it should be.
Last edited by UseYourNoodle on Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by UseYourNoodle » Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:42 pm

Ron L wrote:
UseYourNoodle wrote:
Ron L wrote:
UseYourNoodle wrote: How many innocent lives have been lost in this bogus pre-emptive war in Iraq supported by so many pro-life republicans?

You mean those folks like John Kerry and Diane Feinstein?
Thanks,


I guess I should have said after the WMD propaganda was shown to be lies.

Well, that would leave you in the same position; those who support the war are not necessarily "pro-life republicans". Falsely equating one with the other makes your argument worthless.
Are you arguing about the war or "pro-life republicans"?
Thanks,


Granted there are people who support the war that are not pro-life republicans but how many pro-life republicans have you heard speak out against the war?
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Post by Paul Anthony » Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:37 pm

Why are any of you surprised that a person could be conservative on one issue, yet liberal on another? Must a person follow their Party's line on every issue, even when it contradicts their personal belief?

Let's encourage independent thought, rather than denigrate those who dare to form their own opinions independently from their political party affiliations.

In my opinion, a true skeptic would never accept a label such as Republican or Democrat. To do so is to tell the world "I've stopped thinking for myself. I let my Party do my thinking for me".
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Post by flyer1 » Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:15 am

Paul Anthony wrote:Why are any of you surprised that a person could be conservative on one issue, yet liberal on another? Must a person follow their Party's line on every issue, even when it contradicts their personal belief?


Why, yes. Don't you know anything about political parties? :lol:

There was a 1920's democrat, I'm away from my reference books and can't run it down right now, who said "If the President is right, I stand by him because he is right. If he is wrong, I stand by him because he is a democrat." You get the idea.

Let's encourage independent thought, rather than denigrate those who dare to form their own opinions independently from their political party affiliations.

In my opinion, a true skeptic would never accept a label such as Republican or Democrat. To do so is to tell the world "I've stopped thinking for myself. I let my Party do my thinking for me".


No, no. You miss the point. People follow political parties because they want to give up independant, rational thought. It's so much easier to say "I'm a Republican" or "I'm a Democrat" than actually try to formulate reasons why they are against abortion or believe in global warming.

It's why I'm a devout Anarchist.
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Post by Major Malfunction » Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:37 am

The problem with democracy... Well... ONE of the problems with democracy, is that people follow political parties like a football team.

I'm a *insert party name here*. My parents were *insert party name here*. And their parents before them were *insert party name here*.

As if a long line of believers gives credence to *insert party name here*'s current policies...

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Post by UseYourNoodle » Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:16 pm

Doctor X wrote:Oh missed this one after the first flush:

UseYourNoodle wrote:How many innocent lives have been lost. . .


Far less than found in the mass-graves:

Since the Saddam Hussein regime was overthrown in May,

Since the Saddam Hussein regime was overthrown in May, 270 mass graves have been reported. By mid-January, 2004, the number of confirmed sites climbed to fifty-three. Some graves hold a few dozen bodies—their arms lashed together and the bullet holes in the backs of skulls testimony to their execution. Other graves go on for hundreds of meters, densely packed with thousands of bodies.

USAID


Many of the victims wore multiple layers of clothing and carried small personal items like jewelry and medication. One child was found with a ball in his hand.

The women -- four or five of whom were pregnant -- and children appear to have been killed with a single small-caliber gunshot to the head.

Some of the women were blindfolded, but Kehoe says 95 percent of the men were blindfolded and had their hands either tied to the man next to them or tied behind their back. Al-Hatra is in Nineveh province, the location of Mosul and Tal Afar.

CNN


Gee willikers, the eminently pro-Bush organization, Human Rights Watch was unhappy with the fact the nasty ol' Administration stooges have not evaluated the sites fast enough:

On May 3, the mayor of Hilla requested assistance from U.S. marines to guard the site. On May 5, investigators for the Pentagon’s Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Aid (ORHA) reported to authorities in Washington that the grave had been inadequately protected, and recommended the creation of mobile forensic teams that could visit the site. On May 7, ORHA reported to Washington that the mass grave might contain several thousand bodies.

“The U.S. government has not acted on important information about mass graves in Iraq,” said Peter Bouckaert, senior emergencies researcher for Human Rights Watch. “The result is desperate families trying to dig up the site themselves - disturbing the evidence for forensic experts who could professionally establish the identities of the victims.”

HRW


These victims are, apparently, unimportant compared to creating political talking points, such as hypocritical appeals to "right-to-life."

Falacious spew. . . .

Going to war based on nothing more than the fear of what you think some other nation might do . . . blah . . . blah . . . lie . . . lie . . . bias. . . .


Non-compliance with sanctions, illegal weapons systems, mass graves, war crimes, Kay report, et cetera.

You can agree or disagree with things but you cannot simply make-up history. We already have that over in the WWII threads. If you do not bother to know history, to know what happened, you are a waste of time.

--J.D.


Nothing you wrote has anything to do with the reason the United States invaded Iraq. The "imminent threat" fear mongering was just that. The U.N. inspectors had unhindered access in the country prior to the invasion and that is why the U.N. Security Council wanted to let the inspections continue when they voted against our bid to invade Iraq. You mention Illegal weapons systems? I wonder what inspectors would find with access to our nation? We also did not use Kurdish mass graves as a basis to invade Iraq.

There was a documentary on last night on CNN called Dead Wrong -- Inside an Intelligence Meltdown. It laid out the entire chronology of the current administrations determination to invade Iraq and how intelligence was misused and manipulated to support their desires.

(CNN) -- A former top aide to Colin Powell says his involvement in the former secretary of state's presentation to the United Nations on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was "the lowest point" in his life.

"I wish I had not been involved in it," says Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, a longtime Powell adviser who served as his chief of staff from 2002 through 2005. "I look back on it, and I still say it was the lowest point in my life."

Wilkerson is one of several insiders interviewed for the CNN Presents documentary "Dead Wrong -- Inside an Intelligence Meltdown." The program pieced together the events leading up to the mistaken WMD intelligence that was presented to the public.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/19/powell.un/
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Post by UseYourNoodle » Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:29 pm

Doctor X wrote:
UseYourNoodle wrote:Nothing you wrote has anything to do with the reason the United States invaded Iraq.


Then you did not read it, nor have you been paying attention. Your evasion of Saddam's atrocities, failure to comply with UN Resolutions, failure to comply with inspectors, firing on coalition planes, et cetera noted.

One can only assume you support the continuation of such policies. Presumably, you supported the lifting of sanctions and inspection which, as the Kay Report emphasized, would allow him to reconstitute.

Such support proves most unbecoming for a gentleman. Since gentlemen only consort with gentlemen--and ladies--I am sure should you ever stumble over your partisan bias and hatred to land face-first into reality, I shall be informed of this extraordinary event.

--J.D.


And you also seem unwilling to admit that the inspections were going on unhindered at the time prior to our invasion of Iraq and that is why the U.N. Security Council voted to let them play out and against an our hurried invasion where it turns out there was no imminent threat to begin with. Plus aren't U.N. resolutions a matter for the U.N. Security Council to handle? What purpose did it serve to go to the U.N. prior to our invasion if we were just going to ignore their findings and do as we please anyway?
If your spin on this matter is true we should be the most beloved nation in the world especially among Iraq's Arab neighbors for removing Hussein.
It seems to me that you like to put Sadam Hussein was a bad man into the blender and mix it up with what the administration actually gave us as a reason to rush into war in order to justify the invasion.
All one has to do is look at what the White House did to Joe Wilson's wife Valerie Palme when the truth was spoken by Joe Wilson about Iraq's desire to procure nuclear fuel from Africa. The White House never had any concern for the truth and this war was nothing but a political stunt.
Unbecoming of a gentleman? Now you try to shame me into agreeing with you? You make me laugh Dr. X. Being lied to by our government apparently offends some of us more than others. Did you see the show on CNN last night?
P.S. I still think you are a gentleman. :)
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Post by DJ » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:20 pm

UseYourNoodle wrote:

And you also seem unwilling to admit that the inspections were going on unhindered at the time prior to our invasion of Iraq and that is why the U.N. Security Council voted to let them play out and against an our hurried invasion where it turns out there was no imminent threat to begin with.


I suggest reading the whole report, but here are but two excerpts that indicate that Hans Blix did not agree fully with your contention. Granted, Blix wanted to continue, but after 9/11, the time of containment had ended.
PREVENTING THE FURTHER PROLIFERATION OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION
The importance of on-site inspection in Iraq
Lecture by Dr. Hans Blix,
Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC
Third Training Course of UNMOVIC
Vienna, Austria
19 February 2001


“In the case of Iraq, nearly ten years of inspection has seen cooperation and very significant results but also much obstruction.”

“Referring to the failure of Iraq to implement relevant resolutions fully, the Council states further that it is unable to lift the prohibitions (sanctions). It offers Iraq a – somewhat less ambitious way from the economic restrictions imposed by the Security Council. The resolution of 1991 holds out a lifting of sanctions in return for an eradication of the programme of WMDs as foreseen in the resolution.”

http://www.iraqwatch.org/un/unmovic/unm ... -19-01.htm




UseYourNoodle wrote: Plus aren't U.N. resolutions a matter for the U.N. Security Council to handle? What purpose did it serve to go to the U.N. prior to our invasion if we were just going to ignore their findings and do as we please anyway?


Had Iraq complied fully, the resolutions would have been cancelled. In fact, the resolution (1441) was re-ratified.



UseYourNoodle wrote: If your spin on this matter is true we should be the most beloved nation in the world especially among Iraq's Arab neighbors for removing Hussein.


You are ignoring the Arab states that are happy that Saddam is gone (Jordan, Saudi Arabia, UAE to name a few). Also, your argument that we would be “loved” by Arab states if we were doing the right thing doesn’t follow logical constraints. There are a whole host of reasons why people don’t like us.


UseYourNoodle wrote: It seems to me that you like to put Sadam Hussein was a bad man into the blender and mix it up with what the administration actually gave us as a reason to rush into war in order to justify the invasion.


We needed to justify our invasion. In fact, we did justify our actions; otherwise, I suspect that the U.N. would have charged George W. with war crimes.

UseYourNoodle wrote: All one has to do is look at what the White House did to Joe Wilson's wife Valerie Palme when the truth was spoken by Joe Wilson about Iraq's desire to procure nuclear fuel from Africa.


Interesting, though partisan, article ‘bout Joe’s problem with the truth: http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may200407121105.asp

Large PDF, but check out conclusion 21 on page 80: http://intelligence.senate.gov/iraqreport2.pdf

Note: The document is heavily redacted, but without naming Joe Wilson, it was made very clear that the administration was not being told to ignore the Niger-Iraq yellowcake connection, i.e. Bush did NOT lie.

“Conclusion 21. When coordinating the State of the Union, no Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) analysts or officials told the National Security Council (NSA) to remove the “16 words” or that there were concerns about the credibility of the Iraq-Niger uranium reporting. A CIA official’s original testimony (Wilson?—mine) to the committee that he told an NSC official to remove the words “Niger” and “500 tons” from the speech, is incorrect.”

UseYourNoodle wrote: The White House never had any concern for the truth and this war was nothing but a political stunt.


You are biased to the point of ignoring facts.

UseYourNoodle wrote: Unbecoming of a gentleman? Now you try to shame me into agreeing with you? You make me laugh Dr. X. Being lied to by our government apparently offends some of us more than others. Did you see the show on CNN last night?


It is clear that if you believe anyone or anything without verification, you will invariably be misled. I will not speak for Dr. X, but I am offended when the media attempts through cherry picking and outright lying to get their agenda inculcated into the minds of mush that refuse to do a little digging. As for the government lying? Would you expect otherwise? Infamous joke: How do you know a politician is lying? When his/her lips are moving. Right?

UseYourNoodle wrote: P.S. I still think you are a gentleman. :)


Dr. X a gentleman? You really are confused. :P :wink:
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Post by UseYourNoodle » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:38 pm

Then it would have made more sense and been much less treasonous for the White House to expose Joe's lies instead of his wife's covert position with the CIA.
Hussein was a bad man but no WMD and no imminent threat to us. So the reasons given to rush in and invade were bogus.
We have spent 5 billion in total so far in Afghanistan fighting the legitimate war on terror, currently we are spending 5 billion a month in Iraq and for what?
Bush thought removing Hussein would be the biggest hurdle in Iraq and the country would transform into a democracy without much trouble. I remember Bush standing on the aircraft carrier in San Diego five weeks after the initial invasion under a huge mission accomplished banner. Yet, today, three years later, bringing the troops home is considered by him to be an early withdrawal. Not that Bush would ever admit to it but I bet he wishes he listened to the U.N. Security Council.
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Post by DJ » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:51 pm

UseYourNoodle wrote: Then it would have made more sense and been much less treasonous for the White House to expose Joe's lies instead of his wife's covert position with the CIA.


Please read the linked article by Victoria Toensing, “The Plame Game: Was This a Crime?” former chief counsel to the Senate Intelligence Committee (1981-1984), Ms. Toensing helped write the law that you seem to be accusing the President of breaking. If a law wasn’t broken, as has subsequently been demonstrated by the special prosecutor (Fitzgerald), then to suggest treason, as you do, is unfounded.

An exerpt:

“Why have so many people rushed to assume that a crime was committed when someone ‘in the administration’ gave columnist Robert D. Novak the name of CIA ‘operative’ Valerie Plame? Novak published her name while suggesting that nepotism might have lurked behind the CIA assignment of her husband, Joseph Wilson, to a job for which he was credentially challenged: The agency sent him to Niger to determine whether Iraq was interested in acquiring uranium from that country, although he was an expert neither on nuclear weapons nor on Niger.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Jan11.html


UseYourNoodle wrote: Hussein was a bad man but no WMD and no imminent threat to us. So the reasons given to rush in and invade were bogus.


At least seven foreign intelligence agencies disagreed with your assessment at the time of the invasion. Therefore, you cannot claim that the invasion was bogus, especially not in hindsight. Besides, there is mounting evidence that Saddam wanted people to believe that he had more than he did. Couple that with the “oil for food” scandal, and you really are starting to tread water with your unsupported claims.

UseYourNoodle wrote: We have spent 5 billion in total so far in Afghanistan fighting the legitimate war on terror, currently we are spending 5 billion a month in Iraq and for what?


It’s unfortunate that the “War on Terror” is often mischaracterized as the war in Afghanistan. There is plenty of evidence that Saddam was a terrorist who supported global terrorism (9/11 commission report showed links to Al-Qaeda even though the media widely underreported that fact). Additionally, Saddam gloated about paying suicide bombers’ families 25,000 dollars for their martyr’s cause, and he ran at least three terrorist training sites in Iraq.

As for how much money it costs to conduct a “war on terror”…How much is too much? How much is too little? I don’t feel capable of making that decision.

UseYourNoodle wrote: Bush thought removing Hussein would be the biggest hurdle in Iraq and the country would transform into a democracy without much trouble.


No, Bush had plenty of advice as to how long it would potentially take. Colin Powell even said, “You break it you buy it”. I knew it was going to take a lot of time, because Iraq had been tyrannized for over 30 years. The infrastructure was decimated. People were going to be afraid of authority, etc…The President has mentioned over and over that this is going to take time, but people don’t seem to understand the magnitude of the problem or seem bent on hanging the trouble around his neck for political purposes.

UseYourNoodle wrote: I remember Bush standing on the aircraft carrier in San Diego five weeks after the initial invasion under a huge mission accomplished banner. Yet, today, three years later, bringing the troops home is considered by him to be an early withdrawal. Not that Bush would ever admit to it but I bet he wishes he listened to the U.N. Security Council.


This is a commonly misunderstood photo-op that has been overplayed by people with an agenda that is decidedly anti-Bush. The banner was placed by the ship’s commander to commemorate their mission (which was accomplished), and Bush’s comments were true then and remain true albeit completely misunderstood. Major combat action involves moving armies and navies around; large-scale combat logistics, massive troop involvement with complicated command and control. Major combat action was and remains over, so it’s disingenuous to put the banner and the comment together, but I’ve come to expect that behavior from the media and other anti-Bush people.
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Post by UseYourNoodle » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:13 am

DJ wrote:
UseYourNoodle wrote: Then it would have made more sense and been much less treasonous for the White House to expose Joe's lies instead of his wife's covert position with the CIA.


Please read the linked article by Victoria Toensing, “The Plame Game: Was This a Crime?” former chief counsel to the Senate Intelligence Committee (1981-1984), Ms. Toensing helped write the law that you seem to be accusing the President of breaking. If a law wasn’t broken, as has subsequently been demonstrated by the special prosecutor (Fitzgerald), then to suggest treason, as you do, is unfounded.


Ms. Toensing wrote "There is not one fact that I have seen that there could be a violation of the agent identity act,"

To the contrary, Valerie Plame was a covert agent as defined by the law Ms. Toensing helped draft which makes Ms. Toensing wrong in her opinion. She seems to rely upon the fact that Plame was not acting as a covert agent at the time that the two senior Bush administration officials discussed her with reporters. The law she helped write specifically defines the term covert agent which is supplied below which appears to contradict her opinion.


The term “covert agent” means—
(A) a present or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency—
(i) whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information, and
(ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States;....

If all this was considered legal by the White House, why would Bush say he knew nothing about it and wanted to get to the bottom of it and then let millions be spent on a Justice Department investigation to look into the leak? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either the president declassified the information and therefore knew about it (and lied about not knowing) or he didn't declassify the information which would make the leak illegal.

Exposing Valerie Plame permanently ended her ability to serve overseas in a covert position after U.S. tax payers invested at least $250,000 in training her. By their leaks, Karl Rove and Scooter Libby destroyed her career, a CIA front company, and a network of intelligence assets.

Whether or not a law was broken, our country is in the hands of a President who is willing to tolerate people in his Administration who are admitted liars and who played a direct role in compromising our nation's security. President Bush is sending a clear message that it is more important to protect cronies than protect this country.
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Post by DJ » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:31 am

UseYourNoodle wrote:Whether or not a law was broken, our country is in the hands of a President who is willing to tolerate people in his Administration who are admitted liars and who played a direct role in compromising our nation's security. President Bush is sending a clear message that it is more important to protect cronies than protect this country.


When one of the authors of the law disputes that the law was broken AND when a special prosecutor declines to prosecute those alleged to have broken the law, then I’m not sure what to tell you. You may parse the law all you want, but I’ve read and heard analysis that consistently disputes your assertion. I understand that you want to believe that something evil occurred, but I just don’t see how you can prove it.

As for the President’s seemingly contradictory statements, I’m inclined to believe that Libby leaked to Novak without the President’s knowledge. Libby didn’t think it was a violation, and Novak checked with the CIA before he published Valerie Plame’s name to check on the legality of dispensing the information. So, neither person thought they were doing anything wrong. Also, Libby, after all, was a high level administration official with authority to declassify information. You shouldn’t expect the president to have to fight every political battle hurled at him by every political operative every time.

You are also ignoring that Libby is no longer a member of the administration, which contradicts your assertion that the president tolerated the miscommunication. How you can further suggest that the nation’s security was put at risk is hard to understand and lacks any evidence.

As was indicated by Bob Novak’s original column, the senate committee investigation and Victoria Toensing’s article, it’s clear to me that attacking Joe Wilson was a reasonable thing to do. Valerie Plame being his wife was an aside to indicate how Joe got to Niger. No one was trying to “out” an agent and clearly steps were taken to make sure that an “outing” wasn’t happening.
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Post by UseYourNoodle » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:38 am

DJ wrote:
UseYourNoodle wrote:Whether or not a law was broken, our country is in the hands of a President who is willing to tolerate people in his Administration who are admitted liars and who played a direct role in compromising our nation's security. President Bush is sending a clear message that it is more important to protect cronies than protect this country.


When one of the authors of the law disputes that the law was broken AND when a special prosecutor declines to prosecute those alleged to have broken the law, then I’m not sure what to tell you. You may parse the law all you want, but I’ve read and heard analysis that consistently disputes your assertion. I understand that you want to believe that something evil occurred, but I just don’t see how you can prove it.

As for the President’s seemingly contradictory statements, I’m inclined to believe that Libby leaked to Novak without the President’s knowledge. Libby didn’t think it was a violation, and Novak checked with the CIA before he published Valerie Plame’s name to check on the legality of dispensing the information. So, neither person thought they were doing anything wrong. Also, Libby, after all, was a high level administration official with authority to declassify information. You shouldn’t expect the president to have to fight every political battle hurled at him by every political operative every time.

You are also ignoring that Libby is no longer a member of the administration, which contradicts your assertion that the president tolerated the miscommunication. How you can further suggest that the nation’s security was put at risk is hard to understand and lacks any evidence.

As was indicated by Bob Novak’s original column, the senate committee investigation and Victoria Toensing’s article, it’s clear to me that attacking Joe Wilson was a reasonable thing to do. Valerie Plame being his wife was an aside to indicate how Joe got to Niger. No one was trying to “out” an agent and clearly steps were taken to make sure that an “outing” wasn’t happening.


I don't understand how Wilson or his findings on Niger would be discredited if his wife, a trusted CIA employee, recommended him for the job unless it can be shown that Plame or the CIA was acting contrary to our nations interests on the Niger matter thus creating some sort of conflict of interest. Can you explain by revealing how Wilson got to Niger was relevant to his findings on Niger or how revealing Plame as a CIA operative was supposed to discredit him? I just don't see a conflict of interest here where revealing Plame had any legitimate purpose for the Administration. To me outing Plame seems like nothing more than unethical intimidation on the Administrations part that had no relevance to Wilson's findings on Niger. What am I missing?

DJ, can you also tell me why you think Plame did not fit the criteria of the term "covert agent" as defined in the law? Does it actually make sense to you or are you just going by what Toensing says?

As to Libby, I believe there are court documents showing he said Cheney authorized the leak. If that is true why did Cheney allow this long investigation by a special council costing millions to take place if everything was on the up and up?
My guess is that Libby's lawyers will do just what Oliver North's lawyers did to effect a cover up and that is to seek large volumes of sensitive classified material from the government (like the presidents daily intelligence briefing) to use in Libby's defense, the government will refuse citing national security reasons thus forcing the dismissal of the case. I guess we will just have to see how it all plays out.
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Post by DJ » Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:08 am

UseYourNoodle wrote: To me outing Plame seems like nothing more than unethical intimidation on the Administrations part that had no relevance to Wilson's findings on Niger. What am I missing?

DJ, can you also tell me why you think Plame did not fit the criteria of the term "covert agent" as defined in the law? Does it actually make sense to you or are you just going by what Toensing says?



In a nutshell, Joe Wilson was playing a political game. When he intimated that he was sent to Niger by the Bush Administration (specifically Cheney—IIRC) Libby told Novak that Joe’s wife got him to Niger, in an effort to distance Wilson from the administration. Bob Novak had already checked with the CIA about “outing” Plame, but the media was much more interested in distancing the administration from the national security advantage that they had over the Dems. I hate to be a cynic, but I think it is really that simple. The media didn’t seem to mind when actual national security wiretapping protocols were leaked. I think the contradiction proves my point that the Plame controversy was purely political and had nothing to do with national security.

I think that Victoria Toensing makes an excellent point (in the article I linked to above) about the covert status of Plame when she wrote about covert agents not having desk jobs at Langley. I think that’s true. In order to be covert, by definition, links to the CIA would need to be hidden. A desk job in Langley that others knew about would be counterproductive to Plame’s “cover” if she had one (a cover that is) hence I suspect that she had no cover, ergo she was not covert.
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Die-versity
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no wmds

Post by Die-versity » Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:22 pm

my personal theory for why no wmd's have been found in iraq and why many intellegonce services believed they were there.

saddam was a dictator in iraq. iraq was under a serious budget crunch however dictators still want their toys, the cost be damned. like so many dictators saddam had a number of people executed, imprisoned, tortured etc, for not following through on one of his directives.
therefore when his weaponeers were told to acquire such and such technology and/or weapon they were rightly scared to death to tell hussein no or admit their inability to make/purchase it.
they would follow all the motions, show saddam documents to prove to him how well armed iraq was. keep the madman happy.

my only real beef is that no real intelligence work was done on our side.

a friend of mine who worked with DTRA (defense threat reduction agency, responsible for checking arms reduction compliance in the former ussr) in the 90's is still incredulous that cardboard facades and empty missile silos kept the soviet bluff going for almost 20 years.

having worked for or with the government all my life i find it much easier to believe in a lack of competence on their part than an indemic corruption.

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Re: no wmds

Post by Ron L » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:51 am

At the risk of high-jacking the thread: "Military" /= "Intelligence" (and no disrespect intended for you current or former spooks)
This is reminicent of the push to develop the atomic bomb (WWII) under the theory that the Nazis were doing so. And they were, they just didn't have the 'plant' to do so.
Equally, the "Missle Gap" that won Kennedy's election (ignoring those votes in Chicago); Eisenhower couldn't claim the truth without admitting the over-flights, and Nixon probably didn't know.
Die-versity wrote: having worked for or with the government all my life i find it much easier to believe in a lack of competence on their part than an indemic corruption.

I think the general rule would be to never presume a conspiracy when ignorance will suffice. Thanks,
Ron L.

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Post by Ron L » Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:52 am

JD,
Is this a book you're refering to? Sounds interesting.
Thanks,
Ron L.

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Major Malfunction
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Post by Major Malfunction » Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:24 am

Doctor X. Vote 1 for President!