America under Fire

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Skeptruth
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America under Fire

Post by Skeptruth » Sun May 28, 2006 8:31 am

I was born in a very small country in South America, Uruguay, between Argentina and Brazil. In 1968 I was only 19 years old and I paid a higher price than any legal or illegal immigrant has to pay today. I was required by immigration law to enlist in the Armed Forces of the U.S.A. just for being a legal resident without citizenship. The law requires 5 years waiting period before a legal alien could apply for citizenship. Today the corrupt politicians from both parties looking for votes from the hispanic community are breaking the laws that makes any country a real democracy before turning into anarchical plutocracy, U.S.A is sadly becoming that way. The big corporations like Wal-Mart, oil industry and many more to number are part of that process.

Like in Viet-Nam and other wars, Americans are dying or coming home handicapped, fighting the same type of slow bleeding war that was fought in Nam but now are places like: Afghanistan and Irak. U.S. citizens are giving their lives to protect America and the World against terrorism called Islam and the greed of politicians and oil companies. The lessons of the past are not learned and the same mistakes are being repeated over and over again at the expenses of young American people.

The American way of life is fast disappearing, we're being attacked from all sides, economical and by the use of violence against our great nation.
Illegal immigration is introducing unknown individuals, with unknown backgrounds ( some are drug mules, criminals, terrorists, who knows). The only motive to be in the U.S.A. is to take our few decent jobs that we have and send money to their families in their lands of origin. They only want to rip the benefits but not the sacrifices that legal aliens or U.S. citizens are paying. I'm posting some links to show my point:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060528/ap_ ... rder_fence
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060528/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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Post by Flash » Mon May 29, 2006 8:08 pm

Even during the Viet Nam war the carnage on American roads per year far exceeded American deaths per year in Vietnam.
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Post by Tsukasa Buddha » Mon May 29, 2006 9:33 pm

Damn you Walmart! Damn you!!! :lol:
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Post by Skeptruth » Mon May 29, 2006 10:11 pm

Flash wrote:Even during the Viet Nam war the carnage on American roads per year far exceeded American deaths per year in Vietnam.


Hi, Flash, How old are you ?...I was 19 a legal U.S. immigrant in 1968 during the draft. I served in the Army without being a U.S. citizen. President George W. Bush a few years ago made mandatory that any legal immigrant that serves in the Armed Forces of the U.S.A. gets automatic citizenship.I had to wait 5 years after my entry, no matter that I served in the Army.

Your comparison of accidental death with patriots that put their life in the line serving their country is degrading !!! You have no f. idea not only the death, pain, suffering and seeing your brothers losing their lives, minds, limbs, blood, screams. Shooting indiscriminately to other human beings because you're not sure if they're friend or foe. Right now we're fighting another Nam in Irak and Afghanistan. The same thing is happening, we didn't learn from the past. Instead of doing what the Roman Empire used to do, whipped asses seriously and crucified those that rebeled against them, what we do ? We keep sending our men and women on harms way to protect the enemy instead of kicking serious ass. Our government is twisted. They worry about hispanic illegals and their votes while around 3000 U.S. patriots died in a war without logic because democracy never is going to stick in the minds of Islamic fanatics, they care only about controling oil fields.

You go ahead and tell the families of those patriots that were killed in action and the others rotten away all mangled up without limbs and F. up minds about road statistics !!!
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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Post by flyer1 » Tue May 30, 2006 6:34 am

Calm down. Ti calma.

Comparing road deaths to war deaths is comparing red apples and green apples. Both are messy, horrible, traumatic, often unnecessary, and leave chaos in their wake. There is no reason to get upset because of a statistical truth.
"Have you seen my people, magician?" said the unicorn. "They are wild and sea-white, like me."
Schmendrick shook his head. "I have never seen anyone like you, not while I was awake."

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Apples statistics ?

Post by Skeptruth » Tue May 30, 2006 10:21 am

flyer1 wrote:Calm down. Ti calma.

Comparing road deaths to war deaths is comparing red apples and green apples. Both are messy, horrible, traumatic, often unnecessary, and leave chaos in their wake. There is no reason to get upset because of a statistical truth.


flyer1, Statistical truth ?....How can you compare accidents statistcs with war deaths ? How can you compare cancer deaths with road deaths ?

Comparing road deaths to war deaths is comparing red apples and green apples


That's an oxymoronic statement, they're not even in the same "apple" category!!! ...I don't know how you look at human lives. A car accident is 99% unvoluntary, when you are killing in a war is 100% voluntary. Starting from the commanding change everything is plan on how to destroy the enemy and minimize "friendly casualties" = your buddies and innocent civilians.

By your own comparison chart you have never seen action, you're one of the lucky ones that never had to go thru the draft. Now, Military Service is voluntary and I think that's the way it suppose to be.Things can get hot and the draft could come back. I would like to see if you were in the draft how you will feel about apples statistics !!
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Post by flyer1 » Wed May 31, 2006 7:00 am

Death is bad. Period.

As for the rest: Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant
"Have you seen my people, magician?" said the unicorn. "They are wild and sea-white, like me."
Schmendrick shook his head. "I have never seen anyone like you, not while I was awake."

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Post by cmarotta99 » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:51 pm

This may come as a shock to some, but I am personally quite happy with the state of affairs in the USA today.

There have been no terror attacks in nearly five years. The economy is in good shape.

Sure we're at war in Iraq, but the casualties are - compared to other conflicts such as the afore-mentioned Vietnam - relatively light. And every soldier, sailor, airman or Marine in Iraq or serving elsewhere is doing what they do by choice. There is no draft. I myself am ex-Army and have nothing but respect and appreciation for those who serve.

And I shop at Wal-Mart. I like Wal-Mart. They have cheap toilet paper and electronics. What's the problem?

If you're one of the unfortunate few who has lost your job to an illegal alien, or had your job outsourced to India, you have my sympathies. But I would suggest you quit whining and improve your job skills. It's not the government's responsibility to ensure you have a good job.

And the Astros have re-signed the Rocket!

Life is good.
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Post by Bunk » Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:31 pm

cmarotta99 wrote:And the Astros have re-signed the Rocket!



Rocket? Rocket?? Wasn't he killed in a horse and buggy accident?

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Post by Skeptruth » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:39 am

cmarotta99 wrote:This may come as a shock to some, but I am personally quite happy with the state of affairs in the USA today.

There have been no terror attacks in nearly five years. The economy is in good shape.

Sure we're at war in Iraq, but the casualties are - compared to other conflicts such as the afore-mentioned Vietnam - relatively light. And every soldier, sailor, airman or Marine in Iraq or serving elsewhere is doing what they do by choice. There is no draft. I myself am ex-Army and have nothing but respect and appreciation for those who serve.

And I shop at Wal-Mart. I like Wal-Mart. They have cheap toilet paper and electronics. What's the problem?

If you're one of the unfortunate few who has lost your job to an illegal alien, or had your job outsourced to India, you have my sympathies. But I would suggest you quit whining and improve your job skills. It's not the government's responsibility to ensure you have a good job.

And the Astros have re-signed the Rocket!

Life is good.


A.H. What's the problem ?....you're part of the upper middle class that cares about yourself and F. the rest. Your ignorance is so great that we're on the verge of paying $100.00 dollars for a barrel of oil and people already are paying over $ 3.00 at the pumps, no medical care and medicines, etc,etc,etc. You are the typical sleeping American that one day you will see that the all mighty dollar will be at peso price and a depression that will shock your chimpanzee brains off !!
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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Post by Paul Anthony » Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:58 am

Hi, Skeptruth. We haven't talked in a while. Usually, I find myself in complete agreement with you, but this time....

In case you've forgotten, I'm pretty close to your age. I spent 1964 - 1970 in the US Air Force. (I seem to remember there was a war going on). :)

This nation is in jeopardy due to illegal immigration, yes. The rise of militant Islamic people in the world is cause for concern, yes.

But on economics, I have to agree with cmarotta99. In spite of all the problems in the world, the US economy is humming along rather well! The price of gas is experiencing a long-overdue adjustment that should not surprise you. I remember when gas was 15 cents a gallon, and I'm sure you do, too. Back then, a loaf of bread was a nickel - it's more than 20 times that now, so why shouldn't the price of gas reflect the same effects of inflation along with everything else? Europeans have been paying 6 dollars for a long time. We've had it easy.

We hear about jobs lost to outsourcing. Blame supply and demand. (You can blame it, but you can't change it). As long as consumers demand lower prices, businesses will find ways to deliver lower prices. If the only products available were the products of union wages, prices would not be low. You can't expect to earn today's wages, but buy everything at yesterday's prices. Instead of complaining that all the good jobs are gone, people need to acquire the knowledge and skill to perform jobs that are here. It's no different than what farmers faced at the beginning of the industial age, or factory workers face in the information age. Things change. We need to adapt. I'm confident that we will, eventually, but not without a few growing pains! :)
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Post by rrichar911 » Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:15 am

I was in the Air force from 1965 to 1970. Iraq is not Viet Nam.

Illegal immigration is not really the problem. The problem is the very large numbers of illegal immigrants. I live in Texas, and illegal immigration has been going on each and every one of the 60 years I have lived here. The change is that is has drastically increased.

Slow immigration allows time for assimilation, where as opening the flood gates and letting the flood in, does not.

Example: In south Texas illegal immigration has been a fact of life for 150 years or more. During that time south Texas prospered. Crystal City is a good case to study. It used to be the Spinich capitol of the world, with a statue of Popeye adorning the center of town. Del Monte built a processing plant, and prosperity ruled the day.

Then massive numbers of illegals flooded in, took over the local political system, and even though the majority already was Hispanic, the new arivals thought differently. They elected candidates from Raza Unita, who then sought to share the wealth, and the only wealth around was found in with the local spinich farmers.

The farmers were run out, and Raza divided the land among the poor, creating mini spinich farms. Mini farms were not capable of suporting anyone, or even paying the light bills, and the City of Crystal City went bankrupt.

Today there is no farming of any kind done in or around Crystal City, but there is an ample supply of drug dealers, tattoos, boom boxes, and people collecting welfare.

The X Sherrif a semi elderly hispanic, claims that the was defeated in a recent election due to the fact that drug dealers supplied massive amounts of money to his opponent, and i nother cases just bought votes. It seems that they did not appreciate the xSherriff, arresting drug dealers. So they ran him out of office. He says that he does not expect to live very long due to numerous threats on his life from drug dealers.

Point is, the illegal immigrants changed the political and economic land scape, and in so doing created Mexico in Texas. For there is a reason that Mexicans come to the US for jobs, rather there is a reason there are no jobs in Mexico. Open the flood gates and tha reason is imported to the US. i.e. no assimilation takes place.
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Post by cmarotta99 » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:10 pm

Skeptruth wrote:
cmarotta99 wrote:This may come as a shock to some, but I am personally quite happy with the state of affairs in the USA today.

There have been no terror attacks in nearly five years. The economy is in good shape.

Sure we're at war in Iraq, but the casualties are - compared to other conflicts such as the afore-mentioned Vietnam - relatively light. And every soldier, sailor, airman or Marine in Iraq or serving elsewhere is doing what they do by choice. There is no draft. I myself am ex-Army and have nothing but respect and appreciation for those who serve.

And I shop at Wal-Mart. I like Wal-Mart. They have cheap toilet paper and electronics. What's the problem?

If you're one of the unfortunate few who has lost your job to an illegal alien, or had your job outsourced to India, you have my sympathies. But I would suggest you quit whining and improve your job skills. It's not the government's responsibility to ensure you have a good job.

And the Astros have re-signed the Rocket!

Life is good.


A.H. What's the problem ?....you're part of the upper middle class that cares about yourself and F. the rest. Your ignorance is so great that we're on the verge of paying $100.00 dollars for a barrel of oil and people already are paying over $ 3.00 at the pumps, no medical care and medicines, etc,etc,etc. You are the typical sleeping American that one day you will see that the all mighty dollar will be at peso price and a depression that will shock your chimpanzee brains off !!


Geez, skeptruth, what do you want from me? Would it make you feel happy if I told you I was miserable (I think I just came up with a new country song!)?

I got to where I am today through hard work and sacrifice. My father wore a hard hat in Texas oil refineries to get me and my brother through college. The US Army helped as well. If you're unwilling to work hard and make some sacrifices, you won't make it very far. That's always been the case in this country.

As for oil, I would agree we are far too dependent on foreign oil, and that is to our peril, as it affects so many aspects of our lives, from national security to economics. We do need to break that dependence. We need to look at alternative sources and learn to conserve more. Energy independence should be a national priority, as much as illegal immigration or any other issue, if not more so.

And for Dr X, you should thank the Astros for signing the Rocket, at least he won't be going to pitch for the damn Yankees!
The temptation to form premature theories upon insufficient data, Watson, is the bane of our profession.

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Life is gambling, I guess

Post by Skeptruth » Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:08 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:Hi, Skeptruth. We haven't talked in a while. Usually, I find myself in complete agreement with you, but this time....

In case you've forgotten, I'm pretty close to your age. I spent 1964 - 1970 in the US Air Force. (I seem to remember there was a war going on). :)

This nation is in jeopardy due to illegal immigration, yes. The rise of militant Islamic people in the world is cause for concern, yes.

But on economics, I have to agree with cmarotta99. In spite of all the problems in the world, the US economy is humming along rather well! The price of gas is experiencing a long-overdue adjustment that should not surprise you. I remember when gas was 15 cents a gallon, and I'm sure you do, too. Back then, a loaf of bread was a nickel - it's more than 20 times that now, so why shouldn't the price of gas reflect the same effects of inflation along with everything else? Europeans have been paying 6 dollars for a long time. We've had it easy.

We hear about jobs lost to outsourcing. Blame supply and demand. (You can blame it, but you can't change it). As long as consumers demand lower prices, businesses will find ways to deliver lower prices. If the only products available were the products of union wages, prices would not be low. You can't expect to earn today's wages, but buy everything at yesterday's prices. Instead of complaining that all the good jobs are gone, people need to acquire the knowledge and skill to perform jobs that are here. It's no different than what farmers faced at the beginning of the industial age, or factory workers face in the information age. Things change. We need to adapt. I'm confident that we will, eventually, but not without a few growing pains! :)


Hi, Paul, Thank you again for your well written point of view. I'm glad that you see America getting better, like you I'm an American too. My concern besides our disagreement on war casualties between Nam and Irak, are a few: Politicians are liars like religionists. Our National debt is staggering, the dollar is going weak (I know because I live oversees). The Euro in Uruguay and the rest of the World is slowly replacing the dollar Example one dollar = 23.05 pesos. One Euro = 29.10. Six pesos difference.Our enemies are carrying our National debt. I mentioning just one of the "holders-friendlys" and posting a link for you that have brains to think how sure is our future at the pace that we're going.

In recent years the People's Republic of China has also become a major holder of Treasury debt, holding $323.5 billion at that time.
U.S. Treasury statistics indicate that, at the end of 2004, foreigners held 44% of federal debt held by the public. About 64% of that 44% was held by the central banks of other countries. A large portion was held by the central banks of Japan and China. This exposes the United States to potential financial or political risk that either bank will stop buying Treasury securities or start selling them heavily.

A risk of even greater magnitude is the possibility that OPEC will begin to price petroleum in Euros, as Saddam Hussein began to do in 2000

Keep reading at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_debt


Like the warming of our planet we're walking a fine line, example 1929, just remember that I told you so, thanks, Eddie
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Post by Flash » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:31 pm

Skeptruth:
"Your comparison of accidental death with patriots that put their life in the line serving their country is degrading !!! You have no f. idea not only the death, pain, suffering and seeing your brothers losing their lives, minds, limbs, blood, screams. Shooting indiscriminately to other human beings because you're not sure if they're friend or foe. Right now we're fighting another Nam in Irak and Afghanistan. The same thing is happening, we didn't learn from the past. Instead of doing what the Roman Empire used to do, whipped asses seriously and crucified those that rebeled against them, what we do ? We keep sending our men and women on harms way to protect the enemy instead of kicking serious ass."


I was merely pointing out the cold statistical truth which shows that American loses in Viet Nam weren't that bad. Now, the emotional side of detach thatit war, that's your department. Every general in the war has to detach himself emotionally and estimate how costly, in terms of his own troops, a particular battle is going to be. During the first world war French and Germans generals at the battle of Verdun send their respective troops to total destruction coldly calculating the price of victory in hundreds of thousands corpses.

I agree with the second part of your post. America is not trying to fight a real war a la two previous gigantic wars. America is trying to fight a war that looks good and civilized. In the WWII the Allies were bombing German cities in a thousand bomber formations. Dresden was destroyed for no apparent strategic reason. Nazis and the Russians paid no attention to civilians as well because the object was to win at any cost. That's what war is, a brutal bloody thing which if you start you better win. You know, I really see no difference between some marines wiping a village out and the night bombers bombing the city into shreds, in effect, doing the same thing. I actually thing that war is bad in more ways than one. Europe practically destroyed itself economically, morally and militarily during the first half of the twentieth century. It really is a stupid and pointless exercise. However, if forced into one, a country must ensure a win if it can and not play the role of a great humanitarian warrior because firstly, no one will aplaud and secondly the enemy will certainly take an advantage of it.
When I feel like exercising, I just lie down until the feeling goes away. Paul Terry

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Post by Lord of the Left Hand » Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:08 am

It is an interesting question "is America better off than say 40 years ago". How could we objectively decide?

I've considered calculating how many loaves of bread that average American could have purchased 40 years ago and comparing it to now. Anyone have any better suggestions?

LLH

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Post by flyer1 » Sat Jun 03, 2006 7:57 am

Define "better off". We have things today that weren't even dreamed of 40 years ago. I can remember when Texas Instruments first introduced the consumer calculator ($85.00 to add, subtract and perform calculus functions). I remember when the first "personal" computers were introduced and when hackers were invented (I had a roommate who belonged to the Legion of Doom). I still remember endemic smallpox. Of course, I also remember when AIDS first made an appearance--but at the time, it was a short trip to death.

Hard to decide if we're better off or not.
"Have you seen my people, magician?" said the unicorn. "They are wild and sea-white, like me."
Schmendrick shook his head. "I have never seen anyone like you, not while I was awake."

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War and it's consequences

Post by Skeptruth » Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:02 pm

Flash wrote:Skeptruth:
"Your comparison of accidental death with patriots that put their life in the line serving their country is degrading !!! You have no f. idea not only the death, pain, suffering and seeing your brothers losing their lives, minds, limbs, blood, screams. Shooting indiscriminately to other human beings because you're not sure if they're friend or foe. Right now we're fighting another Nam in Irak and Afghanistan. The same thing is happening, we didn't learn from the past. Instead of doing what the Roman Empire used to do, whipped asses seriously and crucified those that rebeled against them, what we do ? We keep sending our men and women on harms way to protect the enemy instead of kicking serious ass."


I was merely pointing out the cold statistical truth which shows that American loses in Viet Nam weren't that bad. Now, the emotional side of detach thatit war, that's your department. Every general in the war has to detach himself emotionally and estimate how costly, in terms of his own troops, a particular battle is going to be. During the first world war French and Germans generals at the battle of Verdun send their respective troops to total destruction coldly calculating the price of victory in hundreds of thousands corpses.

I agree with the second part of your post. America is not trying to fight a real war a la two previous gigantic wars. America is trying to fight a war that looks good and civilized. In the WWII the Allies were bombing German cities in a thousand bomber formations. Dresden was destroyed for no apparent strategic reason. Nazis and the Russians paid no attention to civilians as well because the object was to win at any cost. That's what war is, a brutal bloody thing which if you start you better win. You know, I really see no difference between some marines wiping a village out and the night bombers bombing the city into shreds, in effect, doing the same thing. I actually thing that war is bad in more ways than one. Europe practically destroyed itself economically, morally and militarily during the first half of the twentieth century. It really is a stupid and pointless exercise. However, if forced into one, a country must ensure a win if it can and not play the role of a great humanitarian warrior because firstly, no one will aplaud and secondly the enemy will certainly take an advantage of it.


Hi, Flash, I get really upset when I read about some our soldiers accused of "atrocities". I was making a coment to a someone and I said:" Look at the people all around us on this busy street, imagine an explosion an machine gun fire coming every way suddenly, You're a soldier, you see some of you buddies being hit and the whizzing of amunition and else.

Do you think at that moment you're going to aim ?

In an instant you become like a "terminator" and you start shooting everywhere. In a moment survival instinct takes over, a lot of fear and adrenaline flows like water thru your whole body. Your mind thinks about self-preservation and you don't distinguish friend from foe in front of you. It's all reflexes, I've been there !!!
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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Post by Paul Anthony » Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:53 pm

Wouldn't that be a good reason to avoid wars?
People who say ALWAYS and NEVER are usually wrong, part of the time.
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Post by Flash » Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:46 pm

Skeptruth;
I haven't been in such a situation but I certainly can understand that, especially on a battlefield where the normal Geneva Convention conditions don't exist. The latter being the ability to separate combatants from noncombatants, the use of clear military uniforms by the enemy and the enemy signing and abiding by the Convention themselves. The Geneva Convention seem to have been developed for a certain kind of war, the European theater war where armies march past sleeping villages in which the freightened peasants desperately try only to save themselves and their pigs from slaughter. The war in Iraq is the kind of war where civilians turn into combatants at times of their choosing or else they provide close support for the latter.
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Avoiding wars

Post by Skeptruth » Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:59 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:Wouldn't that be a good reason to avoid wars?


Hi, Paul Anthony, wow man, that will be the day !!!...

Imagine there's no heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell below us, Above us only sky, Imagine all the peopleliving for today....Imagine there's no countries,It isn't hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, No religion too,

Imagine all the people living life in peace....You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, I hope some day you'll join us, And the world will live as one.

Imagine no possesions, I wonder if you can, No need for greed or hunger, A brotherhood of man,Imagine all the people Sharing all the world...You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, I hope some day you'll join us, And the world will live as one.
John Lennon
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown

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Post by Paul Anthony » Sat Jun 03, 2006 7:28 pm

Try as I might, I can't turn myself into a raving optimist. :)

Yeah, I remember the song, but...as long as there are people, there will be conflicts. The best we can hope for is to keep the conflicts from bursting out into all-out wars. Wars don't solve problems, rational thinking people solve problems.
People who say ALWAYS and NEVER are usually wrong, part of the time.
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Post by cmarotta99 » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:24 pm

Here's a good Washington Post piece that puts the current state of affairs in the USA today in perspective

And Now For Some Good News

By Peter Wehner
Monday, June 5, 2006; Page A15

By now Americans know the litany: The nation is engaged in a difficult and costly war in Iraq; Iran is trying to build a nuclear weapon; gas prices are high; the costs of reconstructing the Gulf Coast region are huge; illegal immigration is a major problem -- and more.

These issues are real and pressing. But they aren't the whole story -- and they ought not color the lens through which we see all other events. We hear a great deal about the problems we face. We hear hardly anything about the encouraging developments. Off-key as it may sound in the current environment, a strong case can be made that in a number of areas there are positive trends and considerable progress. Perhaps the place to begin is with an empirical assessment of where we are.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00781.html
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Re: Avoiding wars

Post by Lord of the Left Hand » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:06 pm

Skeptruth wrote:Imagine there's no heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell below us, Above us only sky, Imagine all the peopleliving for today....Imagine there's no countries,It isn't hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, No religion too,

Imagine all the people living life in peace....You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, I hope some day you'll join us, And the world will live as one.

Imagine no possesions, I wonder if you can, No need for greed or hunger, A brotherhood of man,Imagine all the people Sharing all the world...You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, I hope some day you'll join us, And the world will live as one.
John Lennon


As a side note, the best free energy device I can imagine would be attaching Lennon's corpse to a generator to take advantage of the rate his corpse must be spinning; since this song is now used to sell SUV's.
LLH

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Post by Paul Anthony » Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:04 am

cmarotta99 wrote:Here's a good Washington Post piece that puts the current state of affairs in the USA today in perspective

And Now For Some Good News

By Peter Wehner
Monday, June 5, 2006; Page A15

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00781.html


Yes, the article is heartwarming - and some of it is even true! :)

Who was it who said "Statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics"? Too much of our growth has been financed. This nation is in debt up to its eyeballs, and other nations hold much of that debt.

I don't find that comforting.
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Post by Ron L » Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:22 am

Paul Anthony wrote: Too much of our growth has been financed. This nation is in debt up to its eyeballs, and other nations hold much of that debt.

First, debt, qua debt, is not bad. If there were no debt (borrowing) it would be very hard to see the economic improvements we have.
If you are speaking of 'national (gov't) debt, that's another issue.
Plus, very little of the total retail or gov't debt is held by other "nations". Most of it is held by individuals who live the world over.

Paul Anthony wrote: I don't find that comforting.

I find it comforting. Most people tend to take good care of what they own (or expect payment from). Hardly any banker shoots the mortage holders.
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Ron L.

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Post by Paul Anthony » Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:39 am

Ron L,

First: personal debt.

The run-up in real estate values was orchestrated to give individuals more paper wealth. This new-found money is then used to fuel the expanding the economy. But the wealth is not cash, so people are encouraged to extract it via refinancing and home equity loans. Most people have a net worth based on a myth.

Second: national debt.

There was quite a stir when it became public that a foreign nation could take control of our ports. But many ports are already under foreign control.
Many American companies are majority owned or owned outright by foreign companies. Some of those "companies" are themselves owned by foreign governments.

No, I am not comforted. :(
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Post by flyer1 » Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:27 am

I would still rather be here in America that anywhere else in the world. Except maybe Canada, but it's too cold up there. Say what you will, at least we can ARGUE about our problems and criticize our government if we want to, and face nothing worse than opposing-side slander. Some countries do not have that luxury.
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Mirage economy growth

Post by Skeptruth » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:11 am

Paul Anthony wrote:Ron L,

First: personal debt.

The run-up in real estate values was orchestrated to give individuals more paper wealth. This new-found money is then used to fuel the expanding the economy. But the wealth is not cash, so people are encouraged to extract it via refinancing and home equity loans. Most people have a net worth based on a myth.

Second: national debt.

There was quite a stir when it became public that a foreign nation could take control of our ports. But many ports are already under foreign control.
Many American companies are majority owned or owned outright by foreign companies. Some of those "companies" are themselves owned by foreign governments.

No, I am not comforted. :(


Hi, Paul Anthony, again I'm on your side because what you said on your past posts. It shows skepticism and that's why we write in this forum because we're skeptics. Like you well pointed out be careful with our "borrowed national growth".

U.S. Oil Dependency

The fact that 60 percent of the oil we consume is imported represents a vast transfer of wealth away from the pocketbooks of Americans. Worse, more than 30 percent of our imported oil comes from countries that have been — or may soon be — hostile to the interests of the United States.
One thing is certain: Our nation is dangerously reliant on foreign sources of energy, and we cannot allow this situation to continue. Our nation’s security and economic strength are dependent on affordable energy. Wise public policy can speed up our transition to domestic sources that do not drain our national wealth and do not leave us vulnerable.
http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/ ... sions.html

Fossil-Fuel Dependency - Do Oil Reserves Foretell Bleak Future?
by Alejandro Eggers Moreno


Gasoline prices have reached their highest mark ever in the United States -- just as oil giant Royal Dutch/Shell has slashed its petroleum reserve estimates by 20 percent, after a monumental accounting scandal. While soaring prices at the pump have the public worried about another 1970s-style oil crisis, waiting in line might ultimately be the least of our concerns. An increasing number of prominent petroleum geologists -- including many former oil company employees -- have warned that official estimates of available global oil reserves are dangerously exaggerated.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0402-10.htm
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American democracy propaganda

Post by Skeptruth » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:07 am

flyer1 wrote:I would still rather be here in America that anywhere else in the world. Except maybe Canada, but it's too cold up there. Say what you will, at least we can ARGUE about our problems and criticize our government if we want to, and face nothing worse than opposing-side slander. Some countries do not have that luxury.


Hi, flyer1, you're the typical brainwashed American that believes that the old U.S.A. is the only "real democracy" in the world. There are a few good democracies in the world and number one on the list is Switzerland. I'm living overseas after 36 years of living in the U.S. My American born wife and myself a U.S. citizen we're living in a small country in South America. She is amazed on how free and democratic we live. Last year a new government took place and we watched on TV the change of command and how the president was sworn in, he didn't have to put his hand on a Bible. He just put his right hand on his chest and said: " I promise by my honor to respect and abide by the constitution of Uruguay". Religion is totally separated from government and believe me there are Jw's and Mormons and all kind of christian denominations in this country. The government is totally secular. Example: we're having a conflict with Argentina over pulp-paper plants that could pollute the Uruguayan river that we share with Argentina, the church offered to help solve the conflict. The uruguayan government told them that religion has nothing to do with politics. The conflict was taken to an international court called La Haya. It's going to be televised on the 8th and 9th of june, this month.

U.S. is a demo-pluto-theocracy, presidents and in court of laws are influenced by mainstream christianity,mainly fundamentalist evangelicals. They are responsible in the past for influencing the U.S government to pass stupid religious laws like Prohibition and severe laws on gun control, creationism, etc.

More specifically, religious or moralistic beliefs have often been the catalyst for temperance, though secular advocates do exist. The Women's Christian Temperance Union is a prominent example of a religion-based temperance movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperance_movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition
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Post by Ron L » Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:23 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:Ron L,

First: personal debt.

The run-up in real estate values was orchestrated to give individuals more paper wealth. This new-found money is then used to fuel the expanding the economy. But the wealth is not cash, so people are encouraged to extract it via refinancing and home equity loans. Most people have a net worth based on a myth.

For this to be true, a couple of conditions have to obtain: A mechanism to “orchestrate” a market and people to use that mechanism. If the first were true, why in hell would anyone use such a complicated scheme? Why not just take the money and run? And who are these people?
BTW, wealth is most often “not cash”; cash is expensive, it doesn’t make any money. As an example of such a “myth”, banks don’t want cash and successful banks don’t have much more than they must.


Paul Anthony wrote:Second: national debt.

There was quite a stir when it became public that a foreign nation could take control of our ports. But many ports are already under foreign control.
Many American companies are majority owned or owned outright by foreign companies. Some of those "companies" are themselves owned by foreign governments.

For starters, what you discuss isn’t “national debt”. Your first point is true enough, but jingoists crawl out from under rocks on a regular basis. None of them yet has made much sense.
“Many ports”? Got any data? Any reason this is bad?
As far as “companies owned by governments”, any data? And, again, why specifically would this be bad?
Thanks,
Ron L.

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Post by Paul Anthony » Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:03 am

Ron L wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:Ron L,

First: personal debt.

The run-up in real estate values was orchestrated to give individuals more paper wealth. This new-found money is then used to fuel the expanding the economy. But the wealth is not cash, so people are encouraged to extract it via refinancing and home equity loans. Most people have a net worth based on a myth.

For this to be true, a couple of conditions have to obtain: A mechanism to “orchestrate” a market and people to use that mechanism. If the first were true, why in hell would anyone use such a complicated scheme? Why not just take the money and run? And who are these people?
BTW, wealth is most often “not cash”; cash is expensive, it doesn’t make any money. As an example of such a “myth”, banks don’t want cash and successful banks don’t have much more than they must.


Paul Anthony wrote:Second: national debt.

There was quite a stir when it became public that a foreign nation could take control of our ports. But many ports are already under foreign control.
Many American companies are majority owned or owned outright by foreign companies. Some of those "companies" are themselves owned by foreign governments.

For starters, what you discuss isn’t “national debt”. Your first point is true enough, but jingoists crawl out from under rocks on a regular basis. None of them yet has made much sense.
“Many ports”? Got any data? Any reason this is bad?
As far as “companies owned by governments”, any data? And, again, why specifically would this be bad?
Thanks,


When I enter into a discussion on a specific topic, I assume others have a working knowledge of that subject. I apologize if that is not the case.

The economy doesn't happen by accident. The Fed manipulates the economy. That is its intended function. We hope it does what will be best for all concerned, but sometimes...

The most effective way it controls the economy is by setting interest rates. Fluctuations in the prime rates have an immediate effect on the stock markets and a more gradual effect on other aspects of the economy. When interest rates were kept artificially low for an extended period of time time, mortgage rates and the monthly mortgage payments needed to own a home became attractive compared to rental rates. Many people took advantage of this, to become first-time home owners. Investors also jumped on the cheap money, knowing that as demand increased supply would tighten, resulting in an increase in prices. This escalation of value can only continue so long, until the higher prices make ownership too expensive, even with low interest rates. The Fed actually stepped in and raised interest rates to slow the growth of prices, but many people had already been priced out of the market. In real estate, unlike the stock market, prices rarely drop much. So, the inevitable result would have to be a leveling off of the prices at a level much higher than they had been before. Now, homeowners have "equity" in expensive homes that weren't so expensive before. Phony wealth, because those homes are not as easily sold now. To access their new-found wealth, they borrow against it. This is considered good for the economy, because new products and services can't be sold unless people have the money to spend.

But, spending equity expands personal debt. Good for the economy, but not good for individuals.

As to the ports issue, The Dubai Company tried to buy control of "our" ports - from the British company that owns them now!

And not all nations allow private ownership of businesses. In some countries, the government also owns the businesses. But you knew that, didn't you?
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Post by Ron L » Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:44 am

Paul Anthony wrote: When I enter into a discussion on a specific topic, I assume others have a working knowledge of that subject. I apologize if that is not the case.

I'd like to think I have a working knowledge of the subject.

Paul Anthony wrote: The economy doesn't happen by accident. The Fed manipulates the economy. That is its intended function. We hope it does what will be best for all concerned, but sometimes...

"By accident"; nope. This particular discussion probably needs 'way more space than we have, but "orchestrating" the economy overstates the effects of Fed rate settings in both intended and unintended results. I don't know what it can be called; 'nudging' and 'hoping' are probably as good as I can find. Along with 'holy {!#%@}!'

Paul Anthony wrote: The most effective way it controls the economy is by setting interest rates. (I do not intend to misrepresent what you posted, just rying to keep it short) This is considered good for the economy, because new products and services can't be sold unless people have the money to spend.
But, spending equity expands personal debt. Good for the economy, but not good for individuals.

Real estate is sensitive to the prime rate, but certainly not on a 1/1 correlation. As interest rates have risen, the 'housing bubble' has yet to show itself as a 'bubble'. Several years ago, problems with personal debt were touted as being a result of credit card use; that seems to have subsided as folks realized tax-favored home equity could reduce that. The total amount of debt I can't quote, but a good bit of it has moved into more collateralized assets. I'm not convinced that this is bad. There remain people who believe credit cards offer 'free money', but there are also many other strange beliefs floating about.

Paul Anthony wrote: As to the ports issue, The Dubai Company tried to buy control of "our" ports - from the British company that owns them now!

Yes, and?

Paul Anthony wrote: And not all nations allow private ownership of businesses. In some countries, the government also owns the businesses. But you knew that, didn't you?

Yes, I did. By now, *very* few countries hold business ownership in government hands, China being one which nearly defies analysis. Other than that, the questions of how many and what is the result remain.
Thanks,
Ron L.

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Post by Paul Anthony » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:04 am

Ron L wrote:
Real estate is sensitive to the prime rate, but certainly not on a 1/1 correlation. As interest rates have risen, the 'housing bubble' has yet to show itself as a 'bubble'. Several years ago, problems with personal debt were touted as being a result of credit card use; that seems to have subsided as folks realized tax-favored home equity could reduce that. The total amount of debt I can't quote, but a good bit of it has moved into more collateralized assets. I'm not convinced that this is bad. There remain people who believe credit cards offer 'free money', but there are also many other strange beliefs floating about.


I didn't suggest a real estate bubble. I don't expect it to burst. That's what made RE a safe vehicle for this little money manipulation game - RE tends to stabilize when you stop manipulating. The stock market isn't so nice. :)

It was because credit card debt was rising to unmanageable levels that it became necessary to inflate RE. This gave individuals an opportunity to pay down the excessive credit card debt, but by leveraging their homes. I'm not sure that was wise, especially since most people don't have the good sense to cut up the credit cards! They will run up the balances again, on top of their new, larger mortgage debt. It was a temporary fix, not a permanent one.

A permanent fix would involve not spending more than we earn. But if everyone suddenly became frugal the economy would collapse. The greater problem is that incomes have not kept pace with spending, which is how people got in debt in the first place!


Ron L wrote:By now, *very* few countries hold business ownership in government hands, China being one which nearly defies analysis. Other than that, the questions of how many and what is the result remain.
Thanks,


Not true. Look at the Middle East.
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Re: American democracy propaganda

Post by flyer1 » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:47 am

Skeptruth wrote:Hi, flyer1, you're the typical brainwashed American that believes that the old U.S.A. is the only "real democracy" in the world. U.S. is a demo-pluto-theocracy, presidents and in court of laws are influenced by mainstream christianity,mainly fundamentalist evangelicals. They are responsible in the past for influencing the U.S government to pass stupid religious laws like Prohibition and severe laws on gun control, creationism, etc.

More specifically, religious or moralistic beliefs have often been the catalyst for temperance, though secular advocates do exist. The Women's Christian Temperance Union is a prominent example of a religion-based temperance movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperance_movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition


Well, there's nothing like viciously attacking someone for something I didn't say. I never said the US was the "only real democracy"; what I said was "some countries don't have that luxury." I've never been to Switzerland (gave women the right to vote in 1971 [www.bbc.co.uk "This day in 1971"]), or Uruguay (noted for inventive torture of Tupamaro bandits [www.thirdworldtraveler.com "Uruguay 1964-1970]).

Prohibition was repealed in 1933 (U.S. Constitution, 21st Amendment)
Gun control is a responsibility of the states, and is not supported by any religious group.
Creationism has been repeatedly struck down by the Federal Courts, most recently in Dover, PA (Dec. 20, 2005).
The Women's Christian Temperance Union has chapters in Canada and Australia. In addition to their temperance activities, they were also instrumental in women's sufferage. (Wikipedia.org)

What's your point?
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Re: American democracy propaganda

Post by Skeptruth » Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:42 am

flyer1 wrote:
Skeptruth wrote:Hi, flyer1, you're the typical brainwashed American that believes that the old U.S.A. is the only "real democracy" in the world. U.S. is a demo-pluto-theocracy, presidents and in court of laws are influenced by mainstream christianity,mainly fundamentalist evangelicals. They are responsible in the past for influencing the U.S government to pass stupid religious laws like Prohibition and severe laws on gun control, creationism, etc.

More specifically, religious or moralistic beliefs have often been the catalyst for temperance, though secular advocates do exist. The Women's Christian Temperance Union is a prominent example of a religion-based temperance movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperance_movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition


Well, there's nothing like viciously attacking someone for something I didn't say. I never said the US was the "only real democracy"; what I said was "some countries don't have that luxury." I've never been to Switzerland (gave women the right to vote in 1971 [www.bbc.co.uk "This day in 1971"]), or Uruguay (noted for inventive torture of Tupamaro bandits [www.thirdworldtraveler.com "Uruguay 1964-1970]).

Prohibition was repealed in 1933 (U.S. Constitution, 21st Amendment)
Gun control is a responsibility of the states, and is not supported by any religious group.
Creationism has been repeatedly struck down by the Federal Courts, most recently in Dover, PA (Dec. 20, 2005).
The Women's Christian Temperance Union has chapters in Canada and Australia. In addition to their temperance activities, they were also instrumental in women's sufferage. (Wikipedia.org)

What's your point?


Hi, You said that U.S.A.

I would still rather be here in America that anywhere else in the world. Except maybe Canada, but it's too cold up there. Say what you will, at least we can ARGUE about our problems and criticize our government if we want to, and face nothing worse than opposing-side slander. Some countries do not have that luxury.


That's sound a very lopsided nationalistic statement only uttered by many brainwashed Americans. Switzerland is a peaceful neutral country that enjoys for a long time a very stable form of government. Uses a system of democracy called Direct democracy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy

There are no countries in existence today that went thru a process of civil injustices, trial and error,like you mentioned, the time line for women to have full right to vote in Switzerland and the civil war that lasted for 10 years against a communist terrorist group during the 70's called the Tupamaros. Many of those revolutionaries today, in the year 2006 are part of the ruling democratic government called Frente Amplio. Tabare Vazquez a Socialist-Comunist and oncologist just had a meeting with President George W. Bush. He is democratically engaging "bully" Argentina in Holland on the International court named La Haya over a dispute concerning paper-pulp plants being build by Spain and Finland. He is doing it abiding and respecting International law without an armed conflict and no violence. Argentina blocked our International bridges, last summer illegaly. Uruguay lost more than $300,000.000 on turism and transportation.

Now that I talked about the present and you like to go back to the past. Let's look at the past and the present of the "land of the free" and example of democracy of the U.S.A. THe old U.S.A. past and present is riddle with civil war, women and race discrimination, aggressiveness to other nations. A few examples: Civil War, the invasion of Cuba during the Spanish-American war and Bay of Pigs (invented excuses to attack) Korea, VietNam, Gulf war, Irak and Afganistan. U.S.A. is the most disliked and controling "bloodsucking country" in the planet. The only reason why people immigrate to America is because they have most of the world under Yankee Imperialism. U.S.A sucks the raw materials by bribing foreign governments to extract cheap raw materials, cheap products made with cheap labor to resale in American markets. It's costing Americans jobs and turning the country into a rich and poor class only. To give you a glimpse of "peaceful democratic America" here are some links:
http://www.usahistory.com/wars/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Nam_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

Enjoy !!!
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Post by Ron L » Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:58 am

Paul Anthony wrote: I didn't suggest a real estate bubble. I don't expect it to burst. That's what made RE a safe vehicle for this little money manipulation game - RE tends to stabilize when you stop manipulating. The stock market isn't so nice. :)

It was because credit card debt was rising to unmanageable levels that it became necessary to inflate RE. This gave individuals an opportunity to pay down the excessive credit card debt, but by leveraging their homes. I'm not sure that was wise, especially since most people don't have the good sense to cut up the credit cards! They will run up the balances again, on top of their new, larger mortgage debt. It was a temporary fix, not a permanent one.

A permanent fix would involve not spending more than we earn. But if everyone suddenly became frugal the economy would collapse. The greater problem is that incomes have not kept pace with spending, which is how people got in debt in the first place!

As I undestood the matter, the intent was not to "inflate RE", it was to promote industrial capital spending; a side effect was (along with confounders) an increase in RE value. I agree (if I read you correctly) that Greenspan was good; I'd argue he was also lucky.
As far as a 'premanent fix', I think that's looking for utopia. Any permanent fix would presume everyone's risk tolerance at equality; 'the new Soviet man'. I very seriously doubt it's possible and don't know that it's of value. You haven't yet shown that "debt" is bad.


Paul Anthony wrote:
Ron L wrote:By now, *very* few countries hold business ownership in government hands, China being one which nearly defies analysis. Other than that, the questions of how many and what is the result remain.
Thanks,


Not true. Look at the Middle East.

Well, OK. But these are GDPs at best 30th in the world. I think Google could put them in play if those folks wanted to. Again, I've yet to see any reason to find foreign ownership a danger.
Thanks,
Ron L.

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Re: American democracy propaganda

Post by Ron L » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:22 am

Skeptruth wrote: Now that I talked about the present and you like to go back to the past. Let's look at the past and the present of the "land of the free" and example of democracy of the U.S.A. THe old U.S.A. past and present is riddle with civil war, women and race discrimination, aggressiveness to other nations. A few examples: Civil War, the invasion of Cuba during the Spanish-American war and Bay of Pigs (invented excuses to attack) Korea, VietNam, Gulf war, Irak and Afganistan. U.S.A. is the most disliked and controling "bloodsucking country" in the planet. The only reason why people immigrate to America is because they have most of the world under Yankee Imperialism. U.S.A sucks the raw materials by bribing foreign governments to extract cheap raw materials, cheap products made with cheap labor to resale in American markets. It's costing Americans jobs and turning the country into a rich and poor class only. To give you a glimpse of "peaceful democratic America" here are some links:
http://www.usahistory.com/wars/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Nam_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

Enjoy !!!

You gotta know there are many people on the forum who have examined the US gov’t’s specific activities and found them wanting at various times. But your tirade is wanting in some regards.
A quick count found 3 pejoratives, 4 un-checkable claims and that doesn’t count the colors/typography. Strongly stated but not real helpful.
Your only real comparison is CH. I don’t know a lot about it, but what I do know suggests it’s not a control for the experiment in the US.
And then, what do you propose to rectify the problem?
Thanks,
Ron L.

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Re: American democracy propaganda

Post by flyer1 » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:08 am

Skeptruth wrote:There are no countries in existence today that went thru a process of civil injustices, trial and error,like you mentioned, the time line for women to have full right to vote in Switzerland and the civil war that lasted for 10 years against a communist terrorist group during the 70's called the Tupamaros.


Exactly what does that mean? That the US is the ONLY country that ever did anything bad? You seem to be saying "no other countries ever went through a process of civil injustice". Is that right?

Now that I talked about the present and you like to go back to the past. Let's look at the past and the present of the "land of the free" and example of democracy of the U.S.A. THe old U.S.A. past and present is riddle with civil war, women and race discrimination, aggressiveness to other nations. A few examples: Civil War, the invasion of Cuba during the Spanish-American war and Bay of Pigs (invented excuses to attack) Korea, VietNam, Gulf war, Irak and Afganistan. U.S.A. is the most disliked and controling "bloodsucking country" in the planet. The only reason why people immigrate to America is because they have most of the world under Yankee Imperialism. U.S.A sucks the raw materials by bribing foreign governments to extract cheap raw materials, cheap products made with cheap labor to resale in American markets. It's costing Americans jobs and turning the country into a rich and poor class only. To give you a glimpse of "peaceful democratic America" here are some links:


You brought up the past, with prohibition, creationism and the Women's Christian Temperance Union, all of which are part of America's past as well as it's present. What's your point? Prohibition was a bad idea, but it was hardly the evil you seem to think it was.

And in re the number of wars the US has been involved in: What about British Expansionism under Queen Victoria? Communist expansions under Stalin and Mao? Belgian colonialism in the 1950's and 1960's? The rape of Africa by nearly every European country in existence? Are all other nations pristine except the US?

I am hardly the person to defend my country's actions and policies. I hate G.W. Bush, and I'd kill him if I were slightly more insane. I think the war in Iraq was a big mistake, that our country is run by oil interests, and the US's main import is the buy-low-sell-high mentality that has led to sweatshops and child labor around the globe. Sure, America has been involved in, and continues to be involved in, some heinous actions. So is Britain, France, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Afghanistan, Thailand, Burma, Vietnam, Bangladesh....

I'm still glad I live in America. What would make you happy? Should I cut my throat in despair?
"Have you seen my people, magician?" said the unicorn. "They are wild and sea-white, like me."
Schmendrick shook his head. "I have never seen anyone like you, not while I was awake."

Skeptruth
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Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:52 am

Re: American democracy propaganda

Post by Skeptruth » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:15 am

Ron L wrote:
Skeptruth wrote: Now that I talked about the present and you like to go back to the past. Let's look at the past and the present of the "land of the free" and example of democracy of the U.S.A. THe old U.S.A. past and present is riddle with civil war, women and race discrimination, aggressiveness to other nations. A few examples: Civil War, the invasion of Cuba during the Spanish-American war and Bay of Pigs (invented excuses to attack) Korea, VietNam, Gulf war, Irak and Afganistan. U.S.A. is the most disliked and controling "bloodsucking country" in the planet. The only reason why people immigrate to America is because they have most of the world under Yankee Imperialism. U.S.A sucks the raw materials by bribing foreign governments to extract cheap raw materials, cheap products made with cheap labor to resale in American markets. It's costing Americans jobs and turning the country into a rich and poor class only. To give you a glimpse of "peaceful democratic America" here are some links:
http://www.usahistory.com/wars/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Nam_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

Enjoy !!!

You gotta know there are many people on the forum who have examined the US gov’t’s specific activities and found them wanting at various times. But your tirade is wanting in some regards.
A quick count found 3 pejoratives, 4 un-checkable claims and that doesn’t count the colors/typography. Strongly stated but not real helpful.
Your only real comparison is CH. I don’t know a lot about it, but what I do know suggests it’s not a control for the experiment in the US.
And then, what do you propose to rectify the problem?
Thanks,


Hi, Ron L, There is nothing that individually we can do. What started this discussion where these words by flyer 1:

I would still rather be here in America that anywhere else in the world. Except maybe Canada, but it's too cold up there. Say what you will, at least we can ARGUE about our problems and criticize our government if we want to, and face nothing worse than opposing-side slander. Some countries do not have that luxury.


I wanted to show that America is not the only country that enjoys a democratic system where you can say what you feel totally. I quoted from his posting above. America in no way is the best place to live in the planet at this time for many reason listed below.
flyer1 looks at America as the "democracy's heaven".The U.S.A. government is playing a dangerous game, greedily, selfishly and carelessly, by lying big to the American people for a long time.
I lived in America since 1968 till 2004. When arrived in NYC, I thought that I was in "Paradise", jobs easy to find by looking in the newspapers and if a person had a profession was easier to make a good living and find work or start a new business, cost of living, family homes averaged between $15,000.00 to $30,000.00, medical, cars were super affordable and of course gasoline. In 1973 the U.S.A. government promised that within 30 years America will be totally independent of foreign energy. As time went by everything changed slowly downhill. Illegal immigration ( cheap labor) added to companies moving overseas ( WalMart as an example) American companies buying goods, in the beginning from Japan and later Korea,China and many other countries, marking it "made in America" when it wasn't, it's just another lie, another scam. Vietnam type wars never stopped ( Irak, Afganistan and other conflicts continue since the end of VietNam). Cost of living and dependency of foreign oil are greater than in 1973. Now all of these things are memories. Good paying jobs are scarce and business bankruptcy are at all time high:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies ... usat_x.htm

flyer1 and millions of Americans are being duped by a government that is one of the most deceitful on the face of the earth. While the barrel of oil is skyrocketing and OPEC has the whole world by the balls, look at this ad for GMC
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinside ... 351035.htm

In the other hand the U.S. government talks about alternative fuel and hybrid cars !!!....but when ?...In the year 2030 or later ?...Nowbody knows, there is not in place organized programs to set dates, just more promises for the gullible, I heard them more than 30 years ago. The dollar is holding by pins and needles, there is talk of the Euro replacing the dollar and that will be the demise of the American way of life, totally !!!
http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html

"In fact, we're already seeing concrete evidence that the euro could supplant the dollar as the international currency of choice."
http://healthandenergy.com/a_dollar_crash.htm
"Those who would seek the truth should take care that they may find it and in finding it be horrified." Delos B. McKown