History of Science

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Re: History of Science

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:56 am

Poodle wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:50 am
I looked up "heat and temperature" in Swahili. Turns out to be "joto na joto". Now, call me a bit of a nigglepuss if you like, but that's how any speaker of Swahili as a first language would translate the phrase "heat and temperature" so that same Swahili speaker would, naturally, wonder WTF VFX was talking about. I often do when in my Swahili mode.
Without any attempt to debase Swahili culture in any way could you please tell us the difference between heat and temperature in the modern scientific nomenclature using SI units. There is a fundamental difference. Thank you.

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Re: History of Science

Post by Poodle » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:57 am

Not in Swahili. You're welcome.

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Re: History of Science

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:59 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:54 am
I guess it's his/her overheated head. S/he talked about it elsewhere. Bad parenting, no doubt.
Nope there is a fundamental difference and yet you have the gall to comment on scientific literature without any knowledge at all. If you do not know the difference you are all fart and gas and not fit to comment on the thread I posted. This shows to the world what incredibly illiterate people you are. On this basis you have lost all credibility and just farts against thunder.

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Re: History of Science

Post by Gord » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:01 am

Poodle wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:50 am
I looked up "heat and temperature" in Swahili. Turns out to be "joto na joto". Now, call me a bit of a nigglepuss if you like, but that's how any speaker of Swahili as a first language would translate the phrase "heat and temperature" so that same Swahili speaker would, naturally, wonder WTF VFX was talking about. I often do when in my Swahili mode.
What are you talking about? :befuddled:

Hmm. If Swahili translates both "heat" and "temperature" as "joto", then they are definitely losing something in the translation. Heat has to do with the transfer of energy between two systems; temperature is more do do with the average energy within a system.
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Re: History of Science

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:02 am

NSDAP/VFX deems his (and other denier) drivel "scientific literature"? :laff:
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Re: History of Science

Post by Poodle » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:03 am

Fart and gas = "fart na gesi" in Swahili. Just goes to show that Swahili speakers don't fart.

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Re: History of Science

Post by Gord » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:04 am

Poodle wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:03 am
Fart and gas = "fart na gesi" in Swahili. Just goes to show that Swahili speakers don't fart.
Maybe they fart in English. You don't know their lives!
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Re: History of Science

Post by Poodle » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:05 am

Gord wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:01 am
Poodle wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:50 am
I looked up "heat and temperature" in Swahili. Turns out to be "joto na joto". Now, call me a bit of a nigglepuss if you like, but that's how any speaker of Swahili as a first language would translate the phrase "heat and temperature" so that same Swahili speaker would, naturally, wonder WTF VFX was talking about. I often do when in my Swahili mode.
What are you talking about? :befuddled:

Hmm. If Swahili translates both "heat" and "temperature" as "joto", then they are definitely losing something in the translation. Heat has to do with the transfer of energy between two systems; temperature is more do do with the average energy within a system.
Well, there's your answer, VFX.

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Re: History of Science

Post by Gord » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:08 am

Poodle wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:05 am
Gord wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:01 am
Poodle wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:50 am
I looked up "heat and temperature" in Swahili. Turns out to be "joto na joto". Now, call me a bit of a nigglepuss if you like, but that's how any speaker of Swahili as a first language would translate the phrase "heat and temperature" so that same Swahili speaker would, naturally, wonder WTF VFX was talking about. I often do when in my Swahili mode.
What are you talking about? :befuddled:

Hmm. If Swahili translates both "heat" and "temperature" as "joto", then they are definitely losing something in the translation. Heat has to do with the transfer of energy between two systems; temperature is more do do with the average energy within a system.
Well, there's your answer, VFX.
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Re: History of Science

Post by Poodle » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:11 am

I think you may have VFX on ignore, Gord. Not that that isn't a good idea.

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Re: History of Science

Post by Gord » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:13 am

Oh. Yes I do. He joined my long list of losers left out of my library.
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Re: History of Science

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:59 pm

Heat is the total energy of an object caused by the motion of its molecule; that is, it is the kinetic energy of an objects constituent molecules. It is measured in Joules in SI units. It is typically measured in calories in English units. 1 J =4184 calories. (NOTE: kilocalories are often called "calories" in common usage, as on food containers. 1 kcal = 1000 cal)

Temperature is a measure of how much heat a given amount of mass contains. You can think of it as a sort of mass-averaged amount of heat. It is measured in Kelvin in SI units. The common Celsius scale is identical to the Kelvin scale but shifted by 273.15 K. This means that water freezes at 0 °C but 273.15 K. In English units, Temperatures is measured in degrees Rankine. One degree Rankine is 9/5 of a Kelvin. The common Fahrenheit scale is identical to the Rankine scale but shfited by 459.67°. This means that water freezes at 32°F but 491.67 °R. 0 K = 0 °R is the lowest temperature possible, where all molecular motion has stopped (the object's molecules have no kinetic energy and the object has no heat).

For any given material, the two are related by a factor called heat capacity. For example, the heat capacity of water is 4186 J/K. That means that if you applied 4186 J to 1 kg of water, you would raise its temperature by 1 K (or 1 °C). To reduce this to SI units, J/K = kg⋅m2/K⋅s2

One interesting thing to note is that people generally think that if an object has a higher temperature than another object, it must have more heat. If the two objects have the same mass, this is correct, but if the colder object is larger than the hotter object, it might contain more heat. For example, an iceberg is quite cold but because it is so much larger than a burning match, it contains significantly more heat.
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Re: History of Science

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:35 pm

S/he'll either tell you you're full of it - or you've got yourself a new little stalker with tha hots 4 u. :lol:
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Re: History of Science

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:40 pm

Speaking of HEAT contained in Ice...it always amuses me how many people think ice has the temperature of 32F and that is it. I fell on this making ice cream and the comment was made that we needed "colder ice" and the person rightly recognizing that was ridiculed by 2-3 other folks.

But I comment because I saw a current "This Old House" episode lauding the new heat pump technology that was cost effective on the East Coast of USA for winter heating. "Effective to Zero Degree air temperatures" compared to ……….oil? I like the idea of heat pumps. Same equipment/process/theory used twice a year. I like it.
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Re: History of Science

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:11 pm

Please tell the forum the difference between heat and temperature.

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Re: History of Science

Post by Monster » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:39 pm

VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:11 pm
Please tell the forum the difference between heat and temperature.
http://skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 80#p670525
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Re: History of Science

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:41 pm

:hmm: Maybe it's the difference in spelling s/he's after?
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Re: History of Science

Post by Monster » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:43 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:41 pm
:hmm: Maybe it's the difference in spelling s/he's after?
I'm puzzled that Austin Harper wrote all that and VFX still asks for the difference between the two.
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Re: History of Science

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:51 pm

Sarcasm. It mostly doesn't fit thru the tubes.
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Re: History of Science

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:01 pm

Monster wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:39 pm
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:11 pm
Please tell the forum the difference between heat and temperature.
http://skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 80#p670525
Thank you Monster, I missed that post. Could you explain the correlation please between temperature and the vibration frequency of the atoms and molecules and how this relates to electromagnetic frequencies in the red and infra red spectrum heading towards blue and ultra violet etc. In this sense objects have heat and correlated temperatures but does the light or electromagnetic radiation have temperature as such or does this come after the energy of the electromagnetic radiation is transferred to the object that absorbs some of it. In this case does it set up a resonating frequency to vibrate the atoms and molecules like microwaves or is there some other effect at the quantum level which may explain energy transfer. Can a true vacuum have energy?

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Re: History of Science

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:16 pm

I can give you a fulsome and actually easy to understand explanation...its the difference between photons and atoms...but you'd probably not see this post, so I'll keep it short.
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Re: History of Science

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:31 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:16 pm
I can give you a fulsome and actually easy to understand explanation...its the difference between photons and atoms...but you'd probably not see this post, so I'll keep it short.
Thank you but if you can stick to the quantum vacuum energy and how this relates to the Casimir effect would be awesome. It is suspected this may be some of the causes of the so called "dark energy" and "dark matter" in cosmology. I will trust your knowledge on this.

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Re: History of Science

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:48 pm

When objects contain heat, they radiate it into their environment. This radiation is in the form of electromagnetic waves. The higher the temperature of the object, the more heat (energy) it contains, and the higher the energy of the photons being emitted. Infrared is a very low energy band with a frequency of 300 GHz to 430 THz where visible light begins. You may have noticed that when an object becomes very hot it glows red. As the object gets hotter, the energy of its light emission goes up as well. Blue light has a higher energy than red light, and correspondingly a blue flame is hotter than a red flame. Ultraviolet light is emitted at energies higher than the human visual range.
Edited to add that flame color is also dependent on the material being burned. The comparison here is assuming the same material is being burned in both scenarios.
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Re: History of Science

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:00 pm

Monster wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:43 pm
scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:41 pm
:hmm: Maybe it's the difference in spelling s/he's after?
I'm puzzled that Austin Harper wrote all that and VFX still asks for the difference between the two.
It's a trolling game he/she/it plays.
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Re: History of Science

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:15 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:48 pm
When objects contain heat, they radiate it into their environment. This radiation is in the form of electromagnetic waves. The higher the temperature of the object, the more heat (energy) it contains, and the higher the energy of the photons being emitted. Infrared is a very low energy band with a frequency of 300 GHz to 430 THz where visible light begins. You may have noticed that when an object becomes very hot it glows red. As the object gets hotter, the energy of its light emission goes up as well. Blue light has a higher energy than red light, and correspondingly a blue flame is hotter than a red flame. Ultraviolet light is emitted at energies higher than the human visual range.
Edited to add that flame color is also dependent on the material being burned. The comparison here is assuming the same material is being burned in both scenarios.
Thank you, can you give me some information of how the electron energy orbitals relate to the photon frequencies due to energy level shifts. I assume this is in quanta or perhaps on an energy distribution level which appears as quanta due to the mean energy?

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Re: History of Science

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:19 pm

VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:01 pm
Can a true vacuum have energy?
QM and GR agree that it does, but this is one of the areas where they cannot be reconciled. Quantum says the energy density is about 10120 times greater than general relativity says. GR is based on critical energy density - the density at which the universe is flat (which measurement shows it to be). Just to make it more confusing, while the universe is flat, space-time is curved.

The vaccuum energy density of GR is not the same thing as QM vaccuum energy density. For one thing, QM vaccuum energy has nothing to do with dark energy. Perhaps nothing has anything to do with dark energy. Dark energy is a place-holder name for an unexplained phenomenon, which may be an artifact of imperfect models.

To put it plainly, your question has been modelled by physicists, but it has not actually been answered beyond 'yes'.
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Re: History of Science

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:28 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:19 pm
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:01 pm
Can a true vacuum have energy?
QM and GR agree that it does, but this is one of the areas where they cannot be reconciled. Quantum says the energy density is about 10120 times greater than general relativity says. GR is based on critical energy density - the density at which the universe is flat (which measurement shows it to be). Just to make it more confusing, while the universe is flat, space-time is curved.

The vaccuum energy density of GR is not the same thing as QM vaccuum energy density. For one thing, QM vaccuum energy has nothing to do with dark energy. Perhaps nothing has anything to do with dark energy. Dark energy is a place-holder name for an unexplained phenomenon, which may be an artifact of imperfect models.

To put it plainly, your question has been modelled by physicists, but it has not actually been answered beyond 'yes'.
This is a big thank you Oleg. It is mainly due to the observed Casimir effect where particle virtual or otherwise appear in a vacuum and exert pressure on plates which has prompted me to ask these questions. It has been hypothesized that the Casimir effect on a much grander scale just might be responsible for the appearance of this mysterious dark matter and the so called "dark energy" is really the quantum vacuum energy or zero point energy as it is commonly termed. Your information was very helpful.... thanks again.

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Re: History of Science

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:49 pm

Ew, considering your proclivities, your new sig sux even more than the previous one.
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Re: History of Science

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:59 pm

VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:15 pm
Thank you, can you give me some information of how the electron energy orbitals relate to the photon frequencies due to energy level shifts. I assume this is in quanta or perhaps on an energy distribution level which appears as quanta due to the mean energy?
The thermal radiation spectrum (wavelengths of EM radiation emitted by objects due to heat loss) and chemical emission spectrum (wavelengths of EM radiation emitted by electrons as they move down orbital diameters) are sort of related. When an electron drops from on orbital diameter to another, it basically decreases in potential energy. The energy loss depends on the element (they have different orbital energies) but the wavelength emitted is calculated using E = h c / λ where E is the energy change, h is Plank's constant, and c is the speed of light, and λ is the wavelength of light emitted.

Why are we having this discussion and why is it happening in a thread that's supposed to be about a YouTube series on the history of science?
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Re: History of Science

Post by Gord » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:41 am

Austin Harper wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:59 pm
Why are we having this discussion and why is it happening in a thread that's supposed to be about a YouTube series on the history of science?
Trolls often intentionally derail threads.

Doesn't really matter. Nobody was using this thread much except for me, and I'll keep using it the way I had intended regardless of what others post here. Just don't get it locked or I'll have to start a new one!

Or maybe Pyrrho can split it into two threads before he locks one.
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Re: History of Science

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:00 am

The user is on a recruiting mission (and also stalking Gord) for their stagnant "forum" and cause in general. Perhaps s/he hopes "playing along", however haphazardly, will get some of y'all join him/her and the other clowns at RODOH. :-P



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Re: History of Science

Post by Poodle » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:53 pm

Gord wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:41 am
Austin Harper wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:59 pm
Why are we having this discussion and why is it happening in a thread that's supposed to be about a YouTube series on the history of science?
Trolls often intentionally derail threads.

Doesn't really matter. Nobody was using this thread much except for me, and I'll keep using it the way I had intended regardless of what others post here. Just don't get it locked or I'll have to start a new one!

Or maybe Pyrrho can split it into two threads before he locks one.
I use it, Gord, and I'm very grateful for the heads-up when new programs appear

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Re: History of Science

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:14 pm

Me too. I see no reason for any blocking. Seems to me Youtubes about science are about the History of Science. too close to quibble.
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Re: History of Science

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:17 pm

I'd think Pyrrho would only split off the recent offtopic contributions and lock that - not the original thread.
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Re: History of Science

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:03 pm

Why lock this one? It is nearly the only thread without a flame war. At least, not yet.
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Re: History of Science

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:09 am

Gord wrote: Trolls often intentionally derail threads.
Gord is right. VFX won't answer questions but insists on derailing this thread which is popular
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Matthew Ellard wrote: For what nation? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Poor little NAZI has to post on a USA based forum in English.......as his own German people can't stand him. I imagine him marching up and down German streets on his own. :D

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Re: History of Science

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:13 am

:hmm: I wouldn't count on any of his/her lies and fantasies. Maybe we should ask nurse what's true. :-P
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Re: History of Science

Post by Gord » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:23 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:03 pm
Why lock this one? It is nearly the only thread without a flame war. At least, not yet.
Oh yeah? Ya wanna fight about it? :slapfight:




...that's odd, I thought we had a :fisticuffs: smilie. Or did I just dream that? Seems like a bit of a waste of a dream, to be honest.
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Re: History of Science

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:00 pm

Smilies have been acting obnoxiously lately. Some will replace others, like typing ":sick:" won't gimme this one Image anymore but :sick:.


:slapfight: Image :slapfight:
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Upton_O_Goode
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Re: History of Science

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:13 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:09 am

Poor little NAZI has to post on a USA based forum in English.......as his own German people can't stand him. I imagine him marching up and down German streets on his own. :D
Aha! I KNEW I recognized the style:

“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist