The 800-pound gorilla: does the world need it?

Upton_O_Goode · Post by **Upton_O_Goode** » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:58 pm

This is something I've been wondering about. It's too big a topic to summarize succinctly, but let me set out at least a partial context for it.

Looking at the great empires throughout history, how does one balance the accounts for and against them? On the one hand, every one of them has been appallingly brutal in suppressing its rivals wherever it could. The USA is the current villain of the piece, but if it wasn't, some other country would be. On the other hand, I can see two positive aspects of the empires: (1) artistic and literary creation seem to flourish in empires; (2) the lesser powers have their own viciousness curbed, since the dominant power finds little wars bad for business.

Much as I dream of a USA drawn back into the borders of its 50 states (and perhaps Guam and Puerto Rico) and all 700 military bases in other countries closed, I don't think that is going to happen as long as US taxpayers can be flogged sufficiently and the domestic infrastructure neglected sufficiently to produce the funding for the current insane levels of armament. But if it did happen, what would the consequences be? Take just the relations among China, Japan, the two Koreas, Viet Nam, India, Pakistan, and Bangla Desh. How would they adjust to a sudden withdrawal of American forces from the bases in and around their countries? Would the world be more peaceful?

I honestly don't have any answer to those questions, so I'm eager to listen to others on this subject.

Gawdzilla Sama · Post by **Gawdzilla Sama** » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:13 pm

Ever wonder how many of the "700 bases" were anything more than listening posts?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:16 pm

You expressly say no, but I perceive you know the answer.

Let me quibble for any possible rephrasing:
1. " The USA is the current villain of the piece,..........." //// Wut? China, Russia, EU......what are they in whatever context you have not defined at all?

2. I can see two positive aspects of the empires: (1) artistic and literary creation seem to flourish in empires; /// You have zero "factual" basis for this fatally undefined statement. But lets say its true. Is this a "balance" of any sort or what is it even supposed to mean?

3--(2) the lesser powers have their own viciousness curbed, since the dominant power finds little wars bad for business. //// Well.....there's the answer you already know. Ha, ha....saw a show on Brexit last night re how its going to lead to hostilities between Northern Ireland and the Republic...........whenever smaller entities are formed based on their perceived interests/commonality/history....whatever BS is floating around==>always leads to borders, fences, then wars.

Go Team T.Rump!

Upton_O_Goode · Post by **Upton_O_Goode** » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:58 pm

Great answers, bobbo.

I can perhaps explain part of what I meant. The USA is beyond comparison more powerful than China, Russia, and the EU. It is truly the 800-pound gorilla. But I'll wait and see what others have to say on this. Maybe I overestimate just how big and powerful the USA is.

Your point on the artistic and literary creation is well taken. Still, what has historically gotten PRESERVED of the great classics, whether Chinese, Hindu, Greek, Latin, or Arabic---all that has been produced in empires. The only exceptions I can think of are (1) the Hebrew Scriptures and (2) the Homeric classics. But let's look at it again. I may be overlooking a lot. Please jump in with any others you can think of.

About the third point, it is historically true that the USSR kept the lid on ethnic rivalries for some 50 years, When it broke up, the hatreds among Georgians, Armenians, Azeris, and, in the sphere that Tito wrested from Stalin, of Serbs, Croats, Montenegrins, Bosnians, etc., all broke out again with a vengeance. Even in the limited context of Iraq, Hussein at least kept the Shias and Kurds under his control, and when the Shias got the upper hand, vengeance was quickly exacted. Suppression doesn't lead to peace.

But, as you correctly surmised, I haven't thought this through, so I'll just keep on reading here and learn...

Upton_O_Goode · Post by **Upton_O_Goode** » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:00 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Ever wonder how many of the "700 bases" were anything more than listening posts?

Yeah, you make a good point. But we kept on acquiring those listening posts, even though it would seem we don't need them with the spy technology we now have. By the way, do you have any good figures on where all those bases are and how many people work in them? I don't. I've just heard the number of 700 bandied about.

Upton_O_Goode · Post by **Upton_O_Goode** » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:02 pm

I'd like to add just one point, to clarify my main objective. As I've said, I really, really, want the USA to become a republic again and abandon its commercial empire. The Emperor Claudius, at least as portrayed by Robert Graves, wanted the same thing for Rome, but had no chance of bringing it about.

But what WOULD be the likely consequence for the world of a sudden contraction of US influence? Is it, on balance, a good thing or a bad thing?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:18 pm

1. The USA IS a republic. No togas...but still a republic. Basic Dictionary skills.

2. At its heart: there isn't much but "Empires." So...of course they produce the art. Merely an excess of basic productivity allowing for "culture"/religion to expand?

3. "But what WOULD be the likely consequence for the world of a sudden contraction of US influence? Is it, on balance, a good thing or a bad thing?" /// The irrelevancy of the either/or choice. EVERY ACTION and inaction has its pros and cons. those who benefit, those who are harmed. This applies to the false notion of "on balance." On Balance.........to whom? To what interest???? So.......applying my own BS to the vague blank canvas upon which you ask me to project my own bias and prejudices: of course it would be on balance a bad thing. What are you?====>Crazy????

Related: I think USA should pull far back from its World Policeman Role. But that will create "instability." What to do???? I favor the decapitation strategic position. When a state acts sufficiently against USA interests ..... nuke the capital city when everyone is in town. No big expensive war. No big bogged down rebuilding. and if you don't like nukes....10 Big Boys can do the same job: "conventionally." If you think this is too heinous to consider.....then you simply are defining USA interests. On balance...........

Matthew Ellard · Post by **Matthew Ellard** » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:43 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote: But we kept on acquiring those listening posts, even though it would seem we don't need them with the spy technology we now have.

That's the weird thing. High tech does not guarantee access or a complete set of all the enemy's available information. There are still lessons to be taken from WWII.

German High Command didn't know about the English reading their radio traffic (Ultra) or the Americans statistically analysing their volumes of chatter, but German High Command did know there was a leak. So the Battle of the Bulge was organised with motorbike couriers. The attack was a surprise.

If you take the view that warfare includes wasting the enemy's resources, then mixing up old and new communication systems forces the enemy to maintain "old & new" monitoring systems. The USA has to maintain all those monitoring systems to be maximum in effectiveness against those pesky Russians and Chinese.

Gawdzilla Sama · Post by **Gawdzilla Sama** » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:53 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Ever wonder how many of the "700 bases" were anything more than listening posts?

Yeah, you make a good point. But we kept on acquiring those listening posts, even though it would seem we don't need them with the spy technology we now have. By the way, do you have any good figures on where all those bases are and how many people work in them? I don't. I've just heard the number of 700 bandied about.

You're talking about technology you know zip about. Not a good idea around here.

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:10 am

I don`t know about 700 bases, but for those in Japan – maybe 20 or so, I would worry for world peace if they were to suddenly go away. And not necessarily due to what China or North Korea might suddenly do – but rather that our own nationalist politicians would eventually do what they say they want to do – avenge their ancestors who were wrongly tried and executed for war crimes when all they were actually doing was serving their emperor and trying to take their proper place as a pure race, blessed by the sun goddess.

Extreme right wing nationalism is alive and well here and is only checked by a veneer of semi-democratic practices which would quite easily go away if expanded military spending ensued along with nationalism. Those bases provide a stabilising influence on our expansionist and belligerent neighbours as well as on our own internal `alt-rightists`.

Matthew Ellard · Post by **Matthew Ellard** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:27 am

Australia cheats. We use our submarines as listening posts. They may be slow but the electronics are lovely.

Those pesky Russian listening post trawlers are mobile. Think about it.

Gawdzilla Sama · Post by **Gawdzilla Sama** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:38 am

TJrandom wrote:I don`t know about 700 bases, but for those in Japan – maybe 20 or so, I would worry for world peace if they were to suddenly go away. And not necessarily due to what China or North Korea might suddenly do – but rather that our own nationalist politicians would eventually do what they say they want to do – avenge their ancestors who were wrongly tried and executed for war crimes when all they were actually doing was serving their emperor and trying to take their proper place as a pure race, blessed by the sun goddess.

Extreme right wing nationalism is alive and well here and is only checked by a veneer of semi-democratic practices which would quite easily go away if expanded military spending ensued along with nationalism. Those bases provide a stabilising influence on our expansionist and belligerent neighbours as well as on our own internal `alt-rightists`.

A lot of those "700 bases" aren't even manned any more. Back in the day I could run one from my desk.

Gawdzilla Sama · Post by **Gawdzilla Sama** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:40 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I don`t know about 700 bases, but for those in Japan – maybe 20 or so, I would worry for world peace if they were to suddenly go away. And not necessarily due to what China or North Korea might suddenly do – but rather that our own nationalist politicians would eventually do what they say they want to do – avenge their ancestors who were wrongly tried and executed for war crimes when all they were actually doing was serving their emperor and trying to take their proper place as a pure race, blessed by the sun goddess.

Extreme right wing nationalism is alive and well here and is only checked by a veneer of semi-democratic practices which would quite easily go away if expanded military spending ensued along with nationalism. Those bases provide a stabilising influence on our expansionist and belligerent neighbours as well as on our own internal `alt-rightists`.
A lot of those "700 bases" aren't even manned any more. Back in the day I could run one from my desk.

The difference is "base" vs. "facility". And the US military rarely has control of anything outside those facilities. Fleet Activities Yokosuka, Japan, was my last overseas deployment while on active duty with the USN. We couldn't have defended that base if the Japanese Army had walked up to the door.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:20 am

Looks like, on balance, everyone here prefers the status quo........lots to say about "the status quo" whenever and where ever and however it is decided. but we have China expanding into the ocean south of its previous borders.......so we have an Empire stepping on the toes of another Empire (USA). Would a free form poem from anyone make this adventurism "worthwhile?" Maybe a full blown opera???

Seems to me.... like Russia expanding back into the Crimea.........Empires gonna do, what Empires gonna do. I sure hope "we" (USA/Japan/Phillipines??) don't go to war over the atol. maybe the oil underneath as in: don't burn it??? but I laugh.

I think USA should "pull back" from the South China Seas. Its an inconsequential change at the margin. Wars fought for a whole lot less though.

Poodle · Post by **Poodle** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:27 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:... Its an inconsequential change at the margin.

Vietnam, the Philippines, Indonesia, Brunei and possibly Malaysia might not agree with that, bobbo.

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:59 am

Poodle wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:... Its an inconsequential change at the margin.
Vietnam, the Philippines, Indonesia, Brunei and possibly Malaysia might not agree with that, bobbo.

Japan too...

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:28 am

Yes.................and they would all be wrong as well.

Why should anyone die for the atoll if the Chinese take it?................. even more to the point: why should any American?..(or really impressed Mexican trying to get legal?).

You guys seem to think "WAR" is reasonable just because feelings get hurt.

................................................................................................................................................ A M A Z I N G.

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:30 am

War? Who said war?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:34 am

Maybe more to the point: haven't the Chinese already taken it??? And the tussle now is about their Navy cruising around in the area "as if" they actually owned what they occupy? Ha, ha. I know: reality is a harsh bitch. Some of my favorite words of analysis: "Hey..... you can't do that." ((Oh, the irony!))

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:35 am

TJrandom wrote:War? Who said war?

Thats the context in which I framed the issue. If you agree with me that "everyone" can be pissed off at the Chinese move in their own self interest and that no body can/should do anything about it............. then we are all on the same page.

Also in the context of my previous definitional framing: if you aren't willing to go to war..........how can it be said that you really care? Know what I mean?

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:37 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Maybe more to the point: haven't the Chinese already taken it??? And the tussle now is about their Navy cruising around in the area "as if" they actually owned what they occupy? Ha, ha. I know: reality is a harsh bitch. Some of my favorite words of analysis: "Hey..... you can't do that." ((Oh, the irony!))

There are lots of atolls in that area - I believe they are building on 7 of them. If war were to break out, my guess is that they would suddenly be renamed Bikini.

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:39 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:War? Who said war?
Thats the context in which I framed the issue. If you agree with me that "everyone" can be pissed off at the Chinese move in their own self interest and that no body can/should do anything about it............. then we are all on the same page.

Also in the context of my previous definitional framing: if you aren't willing to go to war..........how can it be said that you really care? Know what I mean?

Each of those countries could do the same - start building on adjacent attols.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:40 am

That would be the "destroy them" so they are useless to everyone? And that act would not be committed by China.

Still think USA is that mindless? (OK........ its 50/50)

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:41 am

TJrandom wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:War? Who said war?
Thats the context in which I framed the issue. If you agree with me that "everyone" can be pissed off at the Chinese move in their own self interest and that no body can/should do anything about it............. then we are all on the same page.

Also in the context of my previous definitional framing: if you aren't willing to go to war..........how can it be said that you really care? Know what I mean?
Each of those countries could do the same - start building on adjacent attols.

What do you think they "will" do?

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:45 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:War? Who said war?
Thats the context in which I framed the issue. If you agree with me that "everyone" can be pissed off at the Chinese move in their own self interest and that no body can/should do anything about it............. then we are all on the same page.

Also in the context of my previous definitional framing: if you aren't willing to go to war..........how can it be said that you really care? Know what I mean?
Each of those countries could do the same - start building on adjacent attols.
What do you think they "will" do?

Piss and moan. And of course provide verbal support for US warship transit thru the area.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:47 am

Ha, ha......yep. Same page. ((Further irony: verbal support/urging for transit of US warships...while protesting any Navy Bases in their backyard. such is the value of "caring". An activity of the useless.))

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:55 am

Their own warships, to the extent that they have them, will also transit - Singapore, Japan...

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:57 am

"warship"==puts me in mind of the USAF calling our bombers: "Peacekeepers." And the scene of the Peace Keepers Sign in Dr Strangelove getting riddled with bullets. ............... not sublime, totally overt and in your face.

Upton_O_Goode · Post by **Upton_O_Goode** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:54 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Ever wonder how many of the "700 bases" were anything more than listening posts?

Yeah, you make a good point. But we kept on acquiring those listening posts, even though it would seem we don't need them with the spy technology we now have. By the way, do you have any good figures on where all those bases are and how many people work in them? I don't. I've just heard the number of 700 bandied about.
You're talking about technology you know zip about. Not a good idea around here.

Point taken. I'll shut up, having admitted my ignorance. My question remains though. Do you plan to answer it, or are you satisfied just to give me unsolicited advice?

Upton_O_Goode · Post by **Upton_O_Goode** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:57 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I don`t know about 700 bases, but for those in Japan – maybe 20 or so, I would worry for world peace if they were to suddenly go away. And not necessarily due to what China or North Korea might suddenly do – but rather that our own nationalist politicians would eventually do what they say they want to do – avenge their ancestors who were wrongly tried and executed for war crimes when all they were actually doing was serving their emperor and trying to take their proper place as a pure race, blessed by the sun goddess.

Extreme right wing nationalism is alive and well here and is only checked by a veneer of semi-democratic practices which would quite easily go away if expanded military spending ensued along with nationalism. Those bases provide a stabilising influence on our expansionist and belligerent neighbours as well as on our own internal `alt-rightists`.
A lot of those "700 bases" aren't even manned any more. Back in the day I could run one from my desk.

Thanks, that's the topic I was hoping you'd respond on. Is the number really 700?

Upton_O_Goode · Post by **Upton_O_Goode** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:02 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I don`t know about 700 bases, but for those in Japan – maybe 20 or so, I would worry for world peace if they were to suddenly go away. And not necessarily due to what China or North Korea might suddenly do – but rather that our own nationalist politicians would eventually do what they say they want to do – avenge their ancestors who were wrongly tried and executed for war crimes when all they were actually doing was serving their emperor and trying to take their proper place as a pure race, blessed by the sun goddess.

Extreme right wing nationalism is alive and well here and is only checked by a veneer of semi-democratic practices which would quite easily go away if expanded military spending ensued along with nationalism. Those bases provide a stabilising influence on our expansionist and belligerent neighbours as well as on our own internal `alt-rightists`.
A lot of those "700 bases" aren't even manned any more. Back in the day I could run one from my desk.
The difference is "base" vs. "facility". And the US military rarely has control of anything outside those facilities. Fleet Activities Yokosuka, Japan, was my last overseas deployment while on active duty with the USN. We couldn't have defended that base if the Japanese Army had walked up to the door.

So a major part of the US overseas effort is as a trip-wire, or symbolic. That was the case in Berlin during the Cold War. The soldiers we had there had no expectations they would be able to get out if war started. They'd have to surrender or be massacred. But attacking them would have meant all-out war with the US, so neither the Russians nor the East Germans dared to do it.

Upton_O_Goode · Post by **Upton_O_Goode** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:06 pm

Thanks to all. I'm learning a little bit about a subject I know very little about to begin with.

Another aspect of this is: How long can the US afford to be the world's police force? If that happens, how can the burden be shifted so as to avoid instability? Trump's plan to shake down the European allies for extra cash doesn't seem to be going well, but it is early days yet.

Gawdzilla Sama · Post by **Gawdzilla Sama** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:07 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Ever wonder how many of the "700 bases" were anything more than listening posts?

Yeah, you make a good point. But we kept on acquiring those listening posts, even though it would seem we don't need them with the spy technology we now have. By the way, do you have any good figures on where all those bases are and how many people work in them? I don't. I've just heard the number of 700 bandied about.
You're talking about technology you know zip about. Not a good idea around here.

Point taken. I'll shut up, having admitted my ignorance. My question remains though. Do you plan to answer it, or are you satisfied just to give me unsolicited advice?

I do what I want to do. Live with it or not. /caring

TJrandom · Post by **TJrandom** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:14 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:Thanks to all. I'm learning a little bit about a subject I know very little about to begin with.

Another aspect of this is: How long can the US afford to be the world's police force? If that happens, how can the burden be shifted so as to avoid instability? Trump's plan to shake down the European allies for extra cash doesn't seem to be going well, but it is early days yet.

Maybe a better question might be - Can the US afford to not be the world`s police force? And as to burden shifting, it seems that China is willing to step in there to fill any void, at least in Asia for now. Voids get filled...

Gawdzilla Sama · Post by **Gawdzilla Sama** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:52 pm

We could just ignore ISIS and groups like that. But then the world would be saying "WHAT AREN'T YOU DOING SOMETHING ABOUT ISIS!!!!"

Upton_O_Goode · Post by **Upton_O_Goode** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:09 pm

TJrandom wrote: Maybe a better question might be - Can the US afford to not be the world`s police force? And as to burden shifting, it seems that China is willing to step in there to fill any void, at least in Asia for now. Voids get filled...

Yeah, I wasn't primarily thinking about the effect on the US itself. Can we get down off this tiger or not?

Most Americans would probably be horrified by the thought of a Chinese hegemony. What I've suspected, though, is that however self-interested a commercial/military empire like the one the US currently runs may be, its absence might be worse yet, as other powers compete to fill the vacuum, leading possibly to major wars and destruction. So I'm thinking, if the US has to pull back, and the Chinese take over peacefully, there would be an upside, despite the near-certainty that China would act just as self-interestedly as the US has done, or perhaps even more so.

But my other suspicion---again in an area where I have no expertise---is that China is about to reach its own natural limits of power, at least economically. It seems to be hesitating at this point, if the news reports are accurate.

Gord · Post by **Gord** » Sun May 28, 2017 8:36 am

TJrandom wrote:I don`t know about 700 bases, but for those in Japan – maybe 20 or so, I would worry for world peace if they were to suddenly go away. And not necessarily due to what China or North Korea might suddenly do – but rather that our own nationalist politicians would eventually do what they say they want to do – avenge their ancestors who were wrongly tried and executed for war crimes when all they were actually doing was serving their emperor and trying to take their proper place as a pure race, blessed by the sun goddess.

Extreme right wing nationalism is alive and well here and is only checked by a veneer of semi-democratic practices which would quite easily go away if expanded military spending ensued along with nationalism. Those bases provide a stabilising influence on our expansionist and belligerent neighbours as well as on our own internal `alt-rightists`.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist · Post by **bobbo_the_Pragmatist** » Sun May 28, 2017 10:00 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote: Another aspect of this is: How long can the US afford to be the world's police force? If that happens, how can the burden be shifted so as to avoid instability? Trump's plan to shake down the European allies for extra cash doesn't seem to be going well, but it is early days yet.

Police forces "get paid" or they go corrupt or go home. Same with the USA or any other hegemonic suicidal train wreck of a society: IE: captured by the AlreadyTooRich aka Int'l Corps.

The thing "most wrong" about the Oil Family Bushes going into the Middle East "for the oil" is that: We didn't get the oil..... ie, payments for our mercenary forces. The USA didn't get the oil...............BIG BUSINESS DID!... while getting their taxes cut.

Everywhere I look: I see fraud.

Upton_O_Goode · Post by **Upton_O_Goode** » Sun May 28, 2017 10:50 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote: Another aspect of this is: How long can the US afford to be the world's police force? If that happens, how can the burden be shifted so as to avoid instability? Trump's plan to shake down the European allies for extra cash doesn't seem to be going well, but it is early days yet.
Police forces "get paid" or they go corrupt or go home. Same with the USA or any other hegemonic suicidal train wreck of a society: IE: captured by the AlreadyTooRich aka Int'l Corps.

The thing "most wrong" about the Oil Family Bushes going into the Middle East "for the oil" is that: We didn't get the oil..... ie, payments for our mercenary forces. The USA didn't get the oil...............BIG BUSINESS DID!... while getting their taxes cut.

Everywhere I look: I see fraud.

Well said! (Just one cynic to another.) Has the world always and everywhere been this {!#%@}-up? I'm guessing yes, although my experience is limited.

Gawdzilla Sama · Post by **Gawdzilla Sama** » Sun May 28, 2017 11:15 am

Historian here. Yes, the world is always {!#%@} up according to some of the people who lived at that time. But it still spins on.