Hacon Bubulcus

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Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Poodle » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:13 am

Anyone want to have a go at that name? He was around in about 1150, in central England. (N.B. - I may have talked about this bloke before). He was a baker - the earliest such thing I can trace.

Where's the name from? (I expect a definitive answer from a single person). What does that surname mean? What colour was his hair? How big was he?

Answers on a postcard, please.

Regard this as your Christmas (plus a bit) quiz, please.

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Gord » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:29 am

Hacon looks like a variation of Håkon, a name I'm more familiar with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A5kon

And Bubulcus looks like it refers to cows or oxen.

His name might mean "Håkon the cowboy".

Oh, and Håkon is probably from the phrase "high son" -- "high" and konr "son, descendant".
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:53 am

Poodle wrote:Anyone want to have a go at that name? He was around in about 1150, in central England. (N.B. - I may have talked about this bloke before). He was a baker - the earliest such thing I can trace.

The Norman invasion is slightly earlier. My understanding is that the Norman invasion was more cultural than actual migration. Perhaps this gentleman adopted a "Latinised" second name for the Norma tax lists, but kept his Viking first name.

If he is a baker, he may have belonged to a local guild, but I'm aware the French (Norman) baker's guild did not form till a century later.

I assume you have his name from a very very early parish marriage registry.
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:26 am

You're all wrong. Originally it was the Bacon Hub Ulcus and was the earliest fast food restaurant that ever existed. Had to change the name for obvious reasons after a certain malady was named after it...
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Gord » Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:30 am

Scrambled eggs is right, she knows about bacon.
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Poodle » Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:12 am

Not bad at all, I think.

This was the name as written down by a set of French monks, so the spelling's up for grabs. Hacon - Gord's got that, I reckon. Definitely Haakon or its ilk, which tells us where his ancestors were from. It may also tell us where he was from - there's a nearby village called Ranskill (from Hrafnskjaalf - seat of the raven) which is about as Viking as it's possible to get.

Bubulcus (also via French monks) - and Gord got it again, in my opinion. Apart from the 'c', that means ox-like in a very straightforward linguistic manner. So - we have Hakon the Bull, a very strong linguistic image of a Viking warrior. Except he's a baker. His wife was called Gode (the pronunciation of that is up for grabs, once again remembering the French monk source) and their son was called Henry Paste. Henry's the fashion for the time - a good Norman name - and paste was what he did (he was a baker, too, as was his own son, Richard Paste).

Next up, if you fancy it - Richard Sellarius. He's about 50 years later than Hakon, and you really have to disregard the obvious.

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:28 pm

Disregard what? That he was the franchisor Sellarius? (Who also sold carpets from the back of his horse.)


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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Gord » Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:56 pm

Sellarius seems like a latinized form of "sellarer", or saddler.
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:05 am

Well done again, Gord. Most people who know a bit of Latin come straight back with 'chair-maker'. But he wasn't - he was a saddle-tree maker.

Okay - last one one the mini New Year quiz. Try your hand at Dionisia Picty. There are a few versions of that last name, but Picty is the most common. Dionisia is about 50 years later again.

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Gord » Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:09 pm

I knew the saddler version from playing Dungeons & Dragons for 35 years.

I can only guess at Picty. Does it have something to do with painting? "Pict" supposedly meant "painted ones", and of course "picture" means...uh, "picture".
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:01 pm

3 out of 3, Gord. She was, indeed, a painter. She had a hand in this ...

http://www.paintedchurch.org/blyth.htm

... although I'm the only person who insists on that. However, if you look at the lowest picture on that webpage (a bit out of focus) you'll see a strange looking thing to the left of the demon's feet. It's been called a cat and a wheelbarrow, but it's actually a spinning wheel. No man would ever have painted a spinning wheel in Hell. As far as I'm concerned, it's her signature.

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:10 pm

Ah, Rumpelstiltskin... or maybe one of these?

Image https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:47 pm

Nah - it's got three legs, a mother-of-all, maidens and a treadle.

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:24 am

The other Dooms the page links to show a wheelbarrow to be going to heck with. Maybe Ms Picty just was a little more advanced?
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:57 am

Yes, but wheelbarrows normally have their wheels between the base of the barrow and the ground. This thing has a wheel on top. It's perfect - spinning wheels still look just like it.

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:00 am

Poodle wrote: No man would ever have painted a spinning wheel in Hell. As far as I'm concerned, it's her signature.
I need to think about this "indicator" for a while. I first tried to find spinning wheels, or other things only women would use, in Roman mosaics, but had no luck.

I can find lots of mosaics of women "doing things", but as these were slave women it may simply be the male artist showing his patron's "property".

I also have to wonder, if the head mistress of the house, was probably the person who commissioned "the scenes" in mosaics, anyway.

Thinking about history is fun. :D

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Gord » Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:01 pm

Poodle wrote:3 out of 3, Gord.
Sweet.

Know why I was able to decipher things like that? Because words have meanings, and are based on other words that had meanings, and traces of these meanings are still there to see in the way we spell English words.
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:05 pm

Poodle wrote:Not bad at all, I think.

This was the name as written down by a set of French monks, so the spelling's up for grabs. Hacon - Gord's got that, I reckon. Definitely Haakon or its ilk, which tells us where his ancestors were from. It may also tell us where he was from - there's a nearby village called Ranskill (from Hrafnskjaalf - seat of the raven) which is about as Viking as it's possible to get.
Does it? There's also the very similar Turkish name Hakan.
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:36 am

Austin Harper wrote: Does it? There's also the very similar Turkish name Hakan.
I don't think there would be many Turks floating around the UK in the middle ages yet. Constantinople didn't fall till the 1400s.

However, I'm aware that western medieval magic was lifted from medieval Arabic intellectualism. However adopting a Turkish first name, seems a stretch, in Christian England.

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:55 am

You're right. I was mixing up Islamic exploration/expansion with Turkish but in the 1100s the Turks were mostly busy conquering Anatolia (Asia Minor) and spreading East, not West like the Muslims to their south. My mistake.
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:55 am

Austin Harper wrote:You're right. I was mixing up Islamic exploration/expansion with Turkish but in the 1100s the Turks were mostly busy conquering Anatolia (Asia Minor) and spreading East, not West like the Muslims to their south. My mistake.
One of the worst movies, manufactured by humans, was Kevin Costner's "Robin Hood" which has poor Morgan Freemen playing an friendly Arab Muslim, living in Sherwood forest.......during the Crusades.

What I enjoy is the mixture of Christian and Nordic pagan artwork, in Ireland as Christianity seeps through around 800. It show how people adapt foreign cultures. England is really interesting because in some ways the Romans never really left. When the Normans invaded, 600 years later, I imagine they saw quite a lot of legacy Roman culture and that familiarity allowed for quick cultural impositions.

Sometimes, I wonder about England. It has been conquered a few times in the past and adopted that culture. Here we are 1000 years later and the English language still loves adopting foreign words while other languages prohibit it. Perhaps it's a related phenomena?


I always enjoy the fact that some of the most Noble English families still have totally outrageous French Norman surnames. The traitors. :D

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Poodle » Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:07 am

[quote="Matthew Ellard"] One of the worst movies, manufactured by humans, was Kevin Costner's "Robin Hood" which has poor Morgan Freemen playing an friendly Arab Muslim, living in Sherwood forest.......during the Crusades.

But those were the days when a real man could walk from Dover to Hadrian's Wall in one night. They don't make 'em like that any more.

...

[quote="Matthew Ellard"]Sometimes, I wonder about England. It has been conquered a few times in the past and adopted that culture. Here we are 1000 years later and the English language still loves adopting foreign words while other languages prohibit it. Perhaps it's a related phenomena?

Errrctually, dear chap, England has only been conquered once, although Britain may have done over a couple of times before that. England wasn't actually a political entity until shortly after 920. Even that once is fondly thought of as being a French success. But the Normans weren't French - they were Norsemen (hence the name) who had successfully invaded what is now Normandy. England by then was half Scandinavian anyway (north of the Thames/Mersey line). Even the king (Edward the Confessor) had a Norman mother, and a large part of his administration was Norman. William was the logical successor and, possibly, it was Harold who was attempting a coup.

But you're absolutely correct about the cultural sponge effect.

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:27 am

Poodle wrote: Errrctually, dear chap, England has only been conquered once, although Britain may have done over a couple of times before that. England wasn't actually a political entity until shortly after 920.
Good point. I stand corrected.

I should have been more precise and said "those loveable cuddly locals, who put bells on their ankles, antlers on their head, and dance by walking back & forth and hitting each other with clean handkerchiefs".
Morris-dancers-in-Tideswe-002.jpg
Poodle wrote: But the Normans weren't French
You actually "got me" twice and missed it. France didn't exist as a political entity either. I made two errors.
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:39 am

That depends on your definition of French, too. While the Normans were largely descended from the Nordic invaders of the northern French coastal area, they heavily intermarried with the "native" Gallic people and by the time they invaded the British Isles they were speaking a Romance language. The huge shift from the almost wholly Germanic Old English to the more Romantic Middle English (though it's still a Germanic language) really starts with William's conquest in 1066. Compare this to the Norse language being spoken in the Danelaw (generally south of the Humber and north of London) as well as the Celtic languages being spoken in modern day Wales and Scotland.
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Poodle » Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:00 pm

It's a fascinating area of study, Austin. There's an interesting discussion going on at the moment in which it is suggested that there was a 'Germanic' language already existing in Britain even before the Roman invasion (it would explain a few abnormalities) - the Anglo-Saxon version was different but fell on very fertile ground, so to speak. The only version of Old English we know too much about was that of Wessex, but it's certain that it was not identical over the entire country. There's a charter from my local area which contains words not included in the Bosworth and Toller definition of OE. That may be due to the Norse influence - you're correct, of course, about the Danelaw affecting the language - it's the basis for the good old northern accent, complete with dropped h's, long vowels, the glottal definite article, and even entirely different words.

The best guide we have to the pronunciation of Middle English, by the way, is Lallans - lowland Scottish, particularly from around Edinburgh.

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Gord » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:03 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Morris-dancers-in-Tideswe-002.jpg
Hey, never dis a clown! Clowns can totally kick your ass.

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:17 pm

Poodle wrote:The only version of Old English we know too much about was that of Wessex, but it's certain that it was not identical over the entire country.
I have a book around here somewhere with several OE poems that had written versions found in various locations around the isles and it prints the different versions side-by-side. Usually it's just spelling differences that show pronunciation changes but sometimes completely different words get substituted in. I'll see if I can find it an post a scan of a page.
Poodle wrote:There's a charter from my local area which contains words not included in the Bosworth and Toller definition of OE. That may be due to the Norse influence - you're correct, of course, about the Danelaw affecting the language - it's the basis for the good old northern accent, complete with dropped h's, long vowels, the glottal definite article, and even entirely different words.

The best guide we have to the pronunciation of Middle English, by the way, is Lallans - lowland Scottish, particularly from around Edinburgh.
Speaking of differences in vocabulary, on New Year's Eve we were talking about Auld Lang Syne which people tend to think is in English but is actually in the almost-mutually-intelligible Scots language that is also a daughter language of OE (via the Northumbrian dialect of ME) for those who may not know. Is Scots ever really heard spoken anymore?
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:11 am

Who knows? If the majority of Scots don't really know what is meant by the Scots language, then I think it's probably died a death despite the Scottish Parliament's wishful thinking.

There are certainly still Scots words (chimney = lum, for instance) in regular use, but within an English grammatical framework. My Scottish friend Jim (pronounced somewhere between jem and jam) still rolls his r's. I often wheel him out to demonstrate how Middle English probably sounded.

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:43 am

Poodle wrote:It's a fascinating area of study, Austin. There's an interesting discussion going on at the moment in which it is suggested that there was a 'Germanic' language already existing in Britain even before the Roman invasion (it would explain a few abnormalities) -
I looked into that. It's actually a stranger story than I imagined.

The German Chronicles claim that a number of ancient German cities were founded by the Trojans (see map below) and the tribe the Sicambri, or at least what appears to have been their original city, Sicambria (see FOLIO XXXVII recto and FOLIO XXXIX recto) were descended from Trojans and are considered to be a Germanic people. The British chronicles speak of a British/Trojan colonisation of Germany about a century after the arrival of Brutus in Britain. Perhaps the most compelling evidence is the similarity between English and ancient Hittite as LA Waddell makes clear


http://www.jrbooksonline.com/pob/pob_app6.html

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Gord » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:24 am

Bleah! Laurence Waddell's book Phoenician Origin of the Britons, Scots, and Anglo-Saxons (1924) is a work of balderdash and hokum.

I refer you to R. L. Turner's review of the book in the Bulletin of the School of Oriental Studies, University of London
Vol. 3, No. 4 (1925), pp. 808-810: http://www.jstor.org/stable/607096?seq= ... b_contents

As an example of Waddell's method, Turner suggests how the word "top-hat" has an "absolute identity" with the Tophet of Jeremiah, and that since "ph" and "b" are "always interchangeable", "there is no doubt that Tophet and Tibet are identical, and that Jeremiah (whose name after all is a but slightly variant form of Dalai Lama) by his cryptic reference to a valley was in reality describing the great plateau, or even Mount Everest itself, which as the superlative of "ever" is symbolic of the top-hat habit."

It's the sort of book that David Icke references, for instance in this one: Icke, D. 1999. The Biggest Secret: The Book That Will Change the World. Scottsdale: Bridge of Love Publications.
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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:50 am

It was more the work of this man I was talking about ...

http://www.grsampson.net/qoppenheimer.html

I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, but he makes some powerful points.

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Re: Hacon Bubulcus

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:52 am

Gord wrote:Bleah! Laurence Waddell's book Phoenician Origin of the Britons, Scots, and Anglo-Saxons (1924) is a work of balderdash and hokum.
OK. Fair enough. I read your links. Whoops :D