I expect the Spanish Inquisition...

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Tsukasa Buddha
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I expect the Spanish Inquisition...

Post by Tsukasa Buddha » Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:43 pm

I am giving a speech on the Spanish Inquisition for my Spanish class and I came across this article. Now, obviously I do not entirely trust "catholic.net" as an unbiased souce, but it does say that BBC and A&E produced "The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition." But according to everything we have read in class, and a few other sources, torture was widely used. So... what really happened?
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Post by flyer1 » Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:00 pm

They burst through the door with a jarring chord and say "NO ONE expects the Spanish Inquisition!" :D

There were actually several Inquisitions, which just means inquiry or examination. The Spanish Inquisition was just the most notorious and perhaps the most extreme of many Inquisitions. Germany had a quite ruthless inquisition, as did Italy. The inquisitons were responsible for locating and punishing heresy and blasphemy, primarily, and trying to convert "heathens", mainly Jews. They also hunted down witches and rival sects such as the Cathars.

I doubt there was a "kinder, gentler," Inquisition; they had dispensation to do just about anything in the name of God and the King, and they got to keep all the money they confiscated (kind of like modern drug forfeiture). They were sure they were doing the Lord's work, and just about anything went.
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Post by DJ » Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:06 pm

I entirely trust that Catholic.net is a biased untrustworthy source. Considering the Inquisition denial would put Catholics in a better light, I especially distrust their speculative, unfounded comments.

I would look to the original sources and do a lot of fact checking before giving any credence whatsoever to that information.

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Post by flyer1 » Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:59 am

Doctor X wrote:The numbers claimed by the Jews are utterly wrong. The Inquisition did not torture them to death, they moved them to Russia. Actually, Torquemada was the Jews bestest friend.

[Wrong thread.--Ed.]

Ooops! Sorry. "Erase! Erase!"

--J.D.


I thought Hitler was the Jews best friend. Did they move them to Russia before or after torturing them to death?
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Schmendrick shook his head. "I have never seen anyone like you, not while I was awake."

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Re: I expect the Spanish Inquisition...

Post by NoMan » Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:11 pm

Tsukasa Buddha wrote:I am giving a speech on the Spanish Inquisition for my Spanish class and I came across this article. Now, obviously I do not entirely trust "catholic.net" as an unbiased souce, but it does say that BBC and A&E produced "The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition." But according to everything we have read in class, and a few other sources, torture was widely used. So... what really happened?


The Spanish Inquisition was wonderful. Flowers and roses, dandelions and such.... Uh... no. The Vatican issued a 800 page report in June of 2004 saying that the Inquisition saved thousands of lives. The documentary, and that statement, is about 10% accurate. I'll have to drudge up history books to give you more than my references from memory, but the official Inquisition didn't kill more than tens of thousands at most. Oh, you note the word official? The Catholics gave the ability to conduct trials by anyone, and those procedures were handed down in various bulls and books.

What this meant was that a variety of heresiologists spawned off. They then conducted their own trials, which usually had far higher death tolls than the official Inquisitional procedures. In places where the Lutheran/Catholic schisms hit the deepest, this had far-reaching repercutions.

Officially, according to Joseph Perez, "The Spanish Inquisition: A History", the Inquisition was primarily made to make sure the proper conversion of Spanish Jews happened in 1480, and his death toll is at 14,000 documented, and 32,000 including non-documented, (by the official Inquisition). He documents numerous torture devices used, which included roasting the limbs until the meat fell off the bone, the "water torture", (gallons upon gallons of water stuffed down a mouth forced open until the person passed out, and was then revived, repeat until confession), etc.

So, the Catholics are engaging in a fancy bit of historical revisionism. Comparing the spawn-offs of the Inquisition, the official one does seem tame by sheer death toll alone. However, the rationale behind the spawn-offs came from none other than Catholic beliefs and practices, papal bulls and authority. In other words, this is how many dictators use their power to harass minority groups and then go, "But this isn't being done officially, look I'm innocent!"

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Re: I expect the Spanish Inquisition...

Post by flyer1 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:53 am

NoMan wrote:So, the Catholics are engaging in a fancy bit of historical revisionism. Comparing the spawn-offs of the Inquisition, the official one does seem tame by sheer death toll alone. However, the rationale behind the spawn-offs came from none other than Catholic beliefs and practices, papal bulls and authority. In other words, this is how many dictators use their power to harass minority groups and then go, "But this isn't being done officially, look I'm innocent!"


Sounds like the same rhetoric the Holocaust-deniers use: "There was no written order that said: Exterminate The Jews; therefore, the Holocaust never happened."

Interestingly, during the Tudor period in England, it was forbidden to use torture against women...unless they were witches.
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Re: I expect the Spanish Inquisition...

Post by flyer1 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:53 am

NoMan wrote:So, the Catholics are engaging in a fancy bit of historical revisionism. Comparing the spawn-offs of the Inquisition, the official one does seem tame by sheer death toll alone. However, the rationale behind the spawn-offs came from none other than Catholic beliefs and practices, papal bulls and authority. In other words, this is how many dictators use their power to harass minority groups and then go, "But this isn't being done officially, look I'm innocent!"


Sounds like the same rhetoric the Holocaust-deniers use: "There was no written order that said: Exterminate The Jews; therefore, the Holocaust never happened."

Interestingly, during the Tudor period in England, it was forbidden to use torture against women...unless they were witches.
"Have you seen my people, magician?" said the unicorn. "They are wild and sea-white, like me."
Schmendrick shook his head. "I have never seen anyone like you, not while I was awake."

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Post by izittrue » Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:40 pm

Doctor X wrote:You can write that again.

--J.D.


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Re: I expect the Spanish Inquisition...

Post by rrichar911 » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:27 am

Tsukasa Buddha wrote:I am giving a speech on the Spanish Inquisition for my Spanish class and I came across this article. Now, obviously I do not entirely trust "catholic.net" as an unbiased souce, but it does say that BBC and A&E produced "The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition." But according to everything we have read in class, and a few other sources, torture was widely used. So... what really happened?


I would say to look up the statistics. such as, how many people did the Sapnish inguisition, put to death.
Verses how many had to do something like, appologise for their transgression.

Opinions are wide and varied, and biosed on both sides possably.

Judge it the same way you would judge the American judicial system. i.e. by the rulings, and punishment dealt out. Then draw your own conclusion as to whether it was good or evil.

It is my understanding that the Spanish inquisition was not nearly as sevear as other systems in other countries at the time.
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Re: I expect the Spanish Inquisition...

Post by flyer1 » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:01 am

rrichar911 wrote:It is my understanding that the Spanish inquisition was not nearly as sevear as other systems in other countries at the time.


Careful...that's like saying Hitler was okay because Stalin was so much worse. The Spanish Inquisition may not have been as bad as the German or Italian inquisitions...but all their victims were equally dead.
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Schmendrick shook his head. "I have never seen anyone like you, not while I was awake."

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Post by rrichar911 » Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:07 am

flyer1

but all their victims were equally dead.


and just how many people did the Sapnish inquisition, put to death?

you might be suprised to the contrary of what we have all heard.

I can state with some knowledge, that it was a very low number. But evenif it were a high number, would it be in of itself an indication of the humanity or non humanity of the process?

You could draw a similar conclusion between say a state in the US which has the dath penalty verses one that does not. Obviously the state that does exicutes more people.

unless we catagorically assume that exicutions = bad system, then it would depend upon what the people did to earn the death penalty.

So many things have been accepted as dogma about the Spainsh inquiition, which are just not true. The most common penalty imposed by the Sapinsh inquisition was, you had to appologize. , that is very harsh ?

It could also be pointed out what is currently going on between the US and Mexico. An illegal alien comes into the US, committs a murder, and runs back across the boarder. The Mexican gov will not do a thing to them, nor will it extradite them to the US. i.e. it lets them get away with murder. Currently ~ 70% of the outstanding murder warrents in Los Angeles county are for illegal aliens.

Which is the more agregious crime? Harboring murderors, letting them get off scott free, or exicuting them? If justice is our goal, as our system is named, i.e. the criminal justice system, then letting them get off scott free, is certainly an indication that justice is non existent inour list of prioraties.

The ultimate judge of a system be it of today or the past is , how just was it. It has been my observation that justice does not recieve the respect that it used to.. For it is highely debatable that if it were created today it might recieve a different name.. Such as the criminal rehabalitation system, the criminal deterent system, i.e. just about any thing other than, the criminal justice system.

REckon why?
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Post by flyer1 » Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:43 am

rrichar911 wrote:flyer1

but all their victims were equally dead.



You could draw a similar conclusion between say a state in the US which has the dath penalty verses one that does not. Obviously the state that does exicutes more people.

unless we catagorically assume that exicutions = bad system, then it would depend upon what the people did to earn the death penalty.

So many things have been accepted as dogma about the Spainsh inquiition, which are just not true. The most common penalty imposed by the Sapinsh inquisition was, you had to appologize. , that is very harsh ?



All states in the US have the death penalty; some have suspended it, but none has renounced it yet.

Yes, the Inquisitions (all of them) only required recanting one's heretical beliefs, but what they did to force people to recant is not included in the roster of deaths. We are not sure how many people died under torture, or recanted only to die soon afterward of their injuries. And the auto-da-fe was not in the same category as lethal injection, or even electrocution. Being roasted to death over the course of several hours was a horrible, excrutiating way to die.

Does someone deserve to die because they worship God in a slightly different way? Did they "earn the death penalty" because of differing beliefs?

BTW, I view the death penalty as simply the most evil part of a necessarily evil system.
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Post by Tsukasa Buddha » Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:02 pm

rrichar911 wrote:I can state with some knowledge, that it was a very low number.


Evidence please, preferably links as it is a project.

rrichar911 wrote:The ultimate judge of a system be it of today or the past is , how just was it. It has been my observation that justice does not recieve the respect that it used to.. For it is highely debatable that if it were created today it might recieve a different name.. Such as the criminal rehabalitation system, the criminal deterent system, i.e. just about any thing other than, the criminal justice system.

REckon why?


Let me guess... those darn liberals at it again?
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Post by rrichar911 » Mon May 01, 2006 5:17 am

We are not sure how many people died under torture, or recanted only to die soon afterward of their injuries.


If we don't know, why assume the worst? Objectivity requires that one base their opinions on facts, rather than assumptions.
Last edited by rrichar911 on Mon May 01, 2006 5:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by rrichar911 » Mon May 01, 2006 5:18 am

Tsukasa Buddha wrote:[

Let me guess... those darn liberals at it again?



You said it, not me. How come?
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Post by flyer1 » Mon May 01, 2006 8:51 pm

rrichar911 wrote:
We are not sure how many people died under torture, or recanted only to die soon afterward of their injuries.


If we don't know, why assume the worst? Objectivity requires that one base their opinions on facts, rather than assumptions.


Okay, here's some facts:

jmgainor.homestead.com/files/PU/Inq/mi.htm
Includes a detailed description of torture methods approved and used by the German Inquisition; a rough estimate of victims in one city is that 20% were burned at the stake of 300+ people questioned.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#Death_tolls
Gives reasonable statistics of Spanish Inquisitional deaths under Torquemada, estimating about 135,000 people died during Torquemada's Inquisition, of which 125,000 died in prison before, during and after their trials.

www.davidmacd.com/catholic/inquisition.htm#How%20many%20people%20were%20killed%20in%20the%20Inquisition
The Catholic Church itself, after much revision, acknowledges that during the Spanish Inquisition, 6,000 people were burned to death. They do not count those who died in prison, or during torture; however they do note that medieval "lynch mobs" were also burning and hanging anyone they believed to be a heretic.

Sorry, lots of people died during the Inquisition. But even if there were only a few, does that make it okay?
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Post by Tsukasa Buddha » Mon May 01, 2006 9:38 pm

Thanks for the links :D !
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Post by NoMan » Wed May 03, 2006 12:05 pm

Yeppers. The reason that the Catholics have launched the counter-attack is that the original number made popular by Margaret Murray was around 2 to 9 million. This was largely based upon a series of forgeries by Etienne de Lamothe-Langon, in a book titled Histoire de l'Inquisition en France. That number is ridiculously high, (at that time, it would have wiped out most of the population in France if it were true), but it survived for quite a while thanks to feminist and pagans who repeated it. With historians now saying that number was greatly exaggerated, the Catholics tried to sneak in the Trojan horse and claim that it was only a few thousand, and what a great thing it was that they died! The killings helped them.... er.... live longer.....

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Post by flyer1 » Wed May 03, 2006 10:24 pm

NoMan wrote:Yeppers. The reason that the Catholics have launched the counter-attack is that the original number made popular by Margaret Murray was around 2 to 9 million. This was largely based upon a series of forgeries by Etienne de Lamothe-Langon, in a book titled Histoire de l'Inquisition en France. That number is ridiculously high, (at that time, it would have wiped out most of the population in France if it were true), but it survived for quite a while thanks to feminist and pagans who repeated it. With historians now saying that number was greatly exaggerated, the Catholics tried to sneak in the Trojan horse and claim that it was only a few thousand, and what a great thing it was that they died! The killings helped them.... er.... live longer.....


I was startled to find out someone had claimed that 9 million people were burned or killed by the various Inquisitions. Good gravy! But as I said, what does it matter if it was 9 million, or "only" 9000. That's a lot of barbecues.
"Have you seen my people, magician?" said the unicorn. "They are wild and sea-white, like me."
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Post by NoMan » Thu May 04, 2006 2:10 pm

flyer1 wrote:I was startled to find out someone had claimed that 9 million people were burned or killed by the various Inquisitions. Good gravy! But as I said, what does it matter if it was 9 million, or "only" 9000. That's a lot of barbecues.


Type in "Burning Times" and you'll still find a few people who erroneously claim it to this day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Burning_Times

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Post by flyer1 » Fri May 05, 2006 7:26 am

NoMan wrote:
flyer1 wrote:I was startled to find out someone had claimed that 9 million people were burned or killed by the various Inquisitions. Good gravy! But as I said, what does it matter if it was 9 million, or "only" 9000. That's a lot of barbecues.


Type in "Burning Times" and you'll still find a few people who erroneously claim it to this day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Burning_Times


Interesting. I ran across a site where someone pointed out that 9 million people was actually more than the population of Europe at the time (post-Black Death). I find the lower figure quoted, 60,000, more believable and realistic.
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Schmendrick shook his head. "I have never seen anyone like you, not while I was awake."

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Post by rrichar911 » Mon May 08, 2006 5:12 am

That the number is lower than commonly held, was my point.

Whether the Spanish inquisition was a just or unjust system depends on why people were exicuted. i.e. were they guilty or innocent. What crimes were they exicuted for?

If we are to condemn a system simply because it exicuted people, then we must also condem the US criminal justice and that of many states, the systems of today, for the same reason.

Whether a BBQ, a hanging tree, old sparky, or the needle , exicution is exicution, there all dead.
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Post by Silly Green Monkey » Mon May 08, 2006 7:23 pm

As they were mainly executed for imaginary crimes and for crimes we don't accept as crimes now, probably innocent. Religious beliefs are not currently punishable by death here. Hopefully never again.
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Post by rrichar911 » Sun May 14, 2006 9:45 pm

Silly Green Monkey

I think your missing my point. The German inguisition, and virtually all inguisitions were worse than the Spanish inguisition.

Thus the question why is it that the Spanish inguisition has the worst reputation?

and what is your source for stating that the crimes people were convicted of during the Spanish ing, are not crimes today? Did not the Spanish inquisition prosicute people for murder, theft, etc?
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Post by Silly Green Monkey » Mon May 15, 2006 6:52 pm

All I have learned about the Spanish Inquisition was that it was a religious court, intending to eradicate all thought which was not approved by the Church. Their methods were mentioned in one of my microbiology books, as an excellent method for controlling disease. First, they kill the person whose ideas they disagreed with, then they killed whoever that person might have come into contact with. Medical practice is the isolate the sick person and whoever they'd come in contact with, rather than killing them.

Inquisitions were not about crimes against people, but crimes against God(Church). Most modern law systems do not punish people for not believing wholeheartedly what everyone is required to believe--most places don't even have a required belief system.
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Post by Ron L » Fri May 19, 2006 12:49 am

Doctor X wrote:Church always went with State.

--J.D.

Dunno. If Church had more battalions, they defeated State. In some cases, it was hard to tell which was which...
That's sorta the reason for the US 2nd amendment; just plain folks oughta have *some* say.
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Post by MartinRicher » Fri May 19, 2006 1:56 am

Do not quote me or trust my memory, but if I recall correctly, burning a heretic was not intended as punishment, but as an act of mercy, the notion being that a heretic's soul faced eternal damnation and the only way to purify it was by burning.

If that's true, it is 1000 times scarier than mundane ol' execution as punishment.

Any Texans here? Do they still have an express lane on Death Row there?
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Post by flyer1 » Fri May 19, 2006 6:36 am

No, heretics were burned because of the Council of Tours (1116 AD), which stated "The Church abhors bloodshed." (Ecclisia abhorret a sanguine) Heretics got the stake so a messy beheading or botched hanging wouldn't leave blood lying around.

Some Catholics believed that it was important to cleanse the soul before punishment, but that didn't clear the soul's way to Heaven, or save the person from being tortured and burnt.
"Have you seen my people, magician?" said the unicorn. "They are wild and sea-white, like me."
Schmendrick shook his head. "I have never seen anyone like you, not while I was awake."