Deir Yassin

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gunsrgood
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Deir Yassin

Post by gunsrgood » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:40 pm

After all the denial and bald faced "mistakes" that Ive seen posted on the "Israel's murderous assult on the USS Liberty" thread, I'm curious as to how all the "skeptics" on this forum will try to deny and obfuscate the facts surrounding Israel's massacre of women and children at Deir Yassin.

From Joe Sobrans - Chosen for Conquest:

On April 9 the irregular forces of the Irgun, led by Israel’s future prime minister Menachem Begin, slaughtered nearly all the residents of the nearly defenseless village. Many survivors of the first assault, all civilians, were marched into the village square, lined up against a wall, and shot. A Red Cross representative arrived while the violence was still in progress; he found 254 dead, including 145 women, 35 of whom were pregnant.

A few of the Arabs of Deir Yassin were still alive. The Balls write, “The other surviving women and children were stripped, and with their hands above their heads, paraded in three open trucks up and down King George V Avenue in Jewish Jerusalem, where spectators spat on them and stoned them.”

(and you might find this interesting also):

Not only did Begin go on to become Israel’s prime minister; he was vocal in denouncing Arabs for “terrorism,” even as he refused to admit that the Arabs had any rights. Among his servitors was his defense minister, Ariel Sharon, who applied Begin’s methods during the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, slaughtering thousands of civilians...Such are America’s “reliable allies” in the “war on terrorism.”

For the complete article go here > http://www.sobran.com/columns/2002/020917.shtml

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Skepchick
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Post by Skepchick » Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:26 pm

Dark day indeed in path to Israeli's independence.
There are, however, a variety of accounts. Too long to quote them, but I suggest people familiarize themselves with the other side of the story.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... assin.html
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Re: Deir Yassin

Post by NoZed Avenger » Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:39 pm

gunsrgood wrote:After all the denial and bald faced "mistakes" that Ive seen posted on the "Israel's murderous assult on the USS Liberty" thread . . . . [snip]


So does your admission here mean you're going to go back and xcorrect your "mistakes" on that thread?

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Ah yes, just what I thought I would see

Post by gunsrgood » Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:41 pm

Implying that there are two sides of the story in Israeli's massacre of defenseless women and children at Deir Yassin is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge to listen to his side of the story. And calling Deir Yassin a battle is like those who club baby seals to death calling it self-defense.

Nice people you surround yourself with Mr. Shermer!

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Post by gunsrgood » Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:52 pm

Implying that there are two sides of the story in Israeli's massacre of defenseless women and children at Deir Yassin is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge to listen to his side of the story. And calling Deir Yassin a battle is like those who club baby seals to death calling it self-defense.


NoZed Avenger writes:

So does your admission here mean you're going to go back and xcorrect your "mistakes" on that thread?


Please be more specific No. Is this what your talking about?

AMERICAN LEADERS SUPPORT USS Liberty SURVIVORS
The Israeli government, the AntiDefamation League, and
certain notorious apologists for Israel insist that the attack was
a tragic accident and that the US government accepts that assertion.
Not so. Virtually every knowledgeable American official with
the lone exception of Robert McNamara is on public record
calling the attack deliberate and the Israeli story untrue.
Here are a few of those American leaders.


"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous "
-- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk



"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."
-- CIA Director Richard Helms



"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."
-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby



"That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable"
-- Special Assistant to the President Clark Clifford, in his report to President Lyndon Johnson



"The highest officials of the [Johnson] administration, including the President, believed it 'inconceivable' that Israel's 'skilled' defense forces could have committed such a gross error."
-- Lyndon Johnson's biographer Robert Dallek in Flawed Giant, Oxford University Press, 1998, pp. 430-31)




"A nice whitewash for a group of ignorant, stupid and inept [expletive deleted]."
-- Handwritten note of August 26, 1967, by NSA Deputy Director Louis W. Tordella reacting to the Israeli court decision exonerating Israelis of blame for the Liberty attack.



"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers.
-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor



"The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.... It was our shared belief. . .that the attack. . .could not possibly have been an accident.... I am certain that the Israeli pilots [and] their superiors. . .were well aware that the ship was American."
-- Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, US Navy (retired), senior legal counsel to the US Navy Court of Inquiry



That the attack was deliberate "just wasn't a disputed issue" within the National Security Agency
-- Former NSA Director retired Army Lieutenant General William Odom on 3 March 2003 in an interview for Naval Institute Proceedings



Former NSA/CIA Director Admiral Bobby Inman "flatly rejected" the Cristol/Israeli claims that the attack was an accident
-- 5 March 2003 interview for Naval Institute Proceedings



Of four former NSA/CIA seniors with inside knowledge, none was aware of any agency official who dissented from the position that the attack was deliberate
-- David Walsh, writing in Naval Institute Proceedings



"It appears to me that it was not a pure case of mistaken identity."
-- Captain William L. McGonagle, Commanding Officer, USS Liberty, speaking at Arlington National Cemetery, June 8, 1997



"To suggest that they [the IDF] couldn't identify the ship is ... ridiculous. ... Anybody who could not identify the Liberty could not tell the difference between the White House and the Washington Monument."
-- Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and later Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, quoted in The Washington Post, June 15, 1991, p. 14

the following quotes came from this site >

http://www.ussliberty.com/

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Re: Ah yes, just what I thought I would see

Post by Skepchick » Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:13 pm

gunsrgood wrote:Implying that there are two sides of the story in Israeli's massacre of defenseless women and children at Deir Yassin is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge to listen to his side of the story. And calling Deir Yassin a battle is like those who club baby seals to death calling it self-defense.

Nice people you surround yourself with Mr. Shermer!


Sigh.

First things first

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7
Opinions expressed on this site are those of the authors, and not necessarily those of the Skeptics Society, its Board of Directors, or its members.


http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2

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As to the charming comparison, actually yes, anyone accused of a crime, no matter how heinous gets a defense in the States. And yes, the defense puts on a different version of events than the prosecution. As you may recall, even perpetrators of the Treblinka, Auschwitz, and all other Holocaust crimes got a trial at Nurenberg. Eichmann got a trial in Israel. Have you not argued for benefit of the doubt to Nazis? Or is skepticism good when applied to accusations against Nazis, but not accusations against Jews?
Lizard.

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Post by Cleon » Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:23 pm

Yep. There was, undoubtedly, a massacre at Deir Yassin. This has been confirmed by eyewitness testimony as well as the work of prominent historians from all sorts of points of view on the matter--even Benny Morris, an Israeli right-winger who thinks the only thing they did wrong was not finishing the job.

Now, then...Do you have a point with this?

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Post by Skepchick » Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:33 pm

Cleon wrote:Yep. There was, undoubtedly, a massacre at Deir Yassin. This has been confirmed by eyewitness testimony as well as the work of prominent historians from all sorts of points of view on the matter--even Benny Morris, an Israeli right-winger who thinks the only thing they did wrong was not finishing the job.

Now, then...Do you have a point with this?


Cleon and I probably disagreed more than agreed regarding Israel :)

But -if I may speculate- I think we agree that emergence and history of Israel has some extremely dark spots. I think exposing and coming to terms with them is essential to its survival as a country, just as coming to terms with the Holocaust was essential for Germany, slavery for US and so forth. In other words, Israel is not unique in this, and tragic as though any single act can be, singling it out from larger historical picture is largely meaningless.

Btw, Cleon, did you ever read "O Jerusalem"?
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Post by Cleon » Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:16 pm

Skepchick wrote:Btw, Cleon, did you ever read "O Jerusalem"?


Can't say that I have, why?

I'm currently reading Norman Finkelstein's "Beyond Chutzpah; on the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History." I don't agree with everything in it, but it is quite illuminating.

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Post by NoZed Avenger » Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:10 pm

gunsrgood wrote:No. Is this what your talking about?


Isn't that the same cut-n-paste link of copyrighted material that the management already asked you to avoid infringing on?
Plan for the JOOS to steal "even more land":
(1) Attack USS Liberty
(2) ????
(3) PROFIT!
- gunsrgood (paraphrased)

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Post by Chaos » Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:44 pm

NoZed Avenger wrote:
gunsrgood wrote:No. Is this what your talking about?


Isn't that the same cut-n-paste link of copyrighted material that the management already asked you to avoid infringing on?


No, it´s a different one. They didn´t warn him about this one because he accidentally included a link to the source.

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Post by gunsrgood » Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:31 pm

Implying that there are two sides of the story in Israeli's massacre of defenseless women and children at Deir Yassin is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge to listen to his side of the story. And calling Deir Yassin a battle is like those who club baby seals to death calling it self-defense.

Cleon writes: "Now, then...Do you have a point with this?"

guns reponds: What is the title of this thread?

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Post by Skepchick » Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:24 pm

Cleon wrote:
Skepchick wrote:Btw, Cleon, did you ever read "O Jerusalem"?


Can't say that I have, why?

I'm currently reading Norman Finkelstein's "Beyond Chutzpah; on the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History." I don't agree with everything in it, but it is quite illuminating.


It is an admittedly pro-Israel book about the fight for Jerusalem in 1940s, but it gives what seems to be an unvarnished view of some of the nastier tactics used by Israeli resistance. It was important to me as it was a first book I read which presented a view from many perspectives- displaced Arab residents, new Jewish immigrants, extremists on all sides. It paints the conflict as something not wanted by either side, but egged on by outside forces, and tragic consequences for everyone. I recommend it. It was recommended to me by a rabbi who brought it up in a session where a bunch of very enthusiastic kids were condemning Palestinian terrorism and saying things like "Israelis never do that". He cited examples from this book, and I think we all gained as a result. Another book he recommended was "Perfidy" by Hecht, I recommend it as well.

People forget that all sides of the conflict are human, and are susceptible to same human failings.

I generally dislike Finkelstein, but I do think it is important to read books from a variety of perspectives. I read Hitler's Willing Executioners by Goldhagen, and then some critiques of his work. Reading only one side can be detrimental to one's intellect- we can seek out views that only reinforce, not challenge what we already came to believe.

Let me know what you think of Finkelstein's book.
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Post by Cleon » Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:43 pm

gunsrgood wrote:Implying that there are two sides of the story in Israeli's massacre of defenseless women and children at Deir Yassin is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge to listen to his side of the story. And calling Deir Yassin a battle is like those who club baby seals to death calling it self-defense.

Cleon writes: "Now, then...Do you have a point with this?"

guns reponds: What is the title of this thread?


So you've got no point other than to bring it up. Okay. You brought it up. Mazl tov.

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Post by Cleon » Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:48 pm

Skepchick wrote:It is an admittedly pro-Israel book about the fight for Jerusalem in 1940s, but it gives what seems to be an unvarnished view of some of the nastier tactics used by Israeli resistance. It was important to me as it was a first book I read which presented a view from many perspectives- displaced Arab residents, new Jewish immigrants, extremists on all sides. It paints the conflict as something not wanted by either side, but egged on by outside forces, and tragic consequences for everyone. I recommend it. It was recommended to me by a rabbi who brought it up in a session where a bunch of very enthusiastic kids were condemning Palestinian terrorism and saying things like "Israelis never do that". He cited examples from this book, and I think we all gained as a result. Another book he recommended was "Perfidy" by Hecht, I recommend it as well.

People forget that all sides of the conflict are human, and are susceptible to same human failings.


I will definitely check it out--it'll hardly be the first pro-Israel book I've ever read. What grinds my gears is the Defenders of Israel who decide that that any and all accounts of terrorism and murder by the Haganah, Stern Gang, etc. didn't happen. When you consider the huge amount of evidence that they did occur, the disturbing parallels with the Holocaust deniers become impossible to ignore.

I generally dislike Finkelstein, but I do think it is important to read books from a variety of perspectives. I read Hitler's Willing Executioners by Goldhagen, and then some critiques of his work. Reading only one side can be detrimental to one's intellect- we can seek out views that only reinforce, not challenge what we already came to believe.

Let me know what you think of Finkelstein's book.


People generally do dislike Finkelstein--either they don't like his point of view, which is unabashedly anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian, or they dislike his method of writing, which can be sarcastic and snide. Needless to say, he's a man after my own heart, so I enjoy his articles. :)

I'll let you know...It's a good read so far, but man does he hate Alan Dershowitz. :)

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Post by gunsrgood » Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:11 am

It seems that even when the Israeli's arn't actually trying to shoot children in the head, they accomplish their mission anyway.

Warning - Graphic photo ahead

http://www.doublestandards.org/behead.html