Israels murderous assult on the USS Liberty

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Israels murderous assult on the USS Liberty

Post by gunsrgood » Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:41 pm

June 8, 1967, is a day which will live in infamy. On this day an American Navy vessel, the U.S.S. Liberty, was deliberately attacked in international waters by the armed forces of Israel in a treacherous attempt to sink the ship and kill everyone aboard it.

Why do you think the Jews did such a rash thing as attack the Liberty in the first place? That, after all, was a very rash thing to do. If the United States were a nation led by honorable men, a nation in control of its own destiny, such an attack would have meant the end of Israel's existence right then and there. Why did the Jews do it? Are they stupid?

I think not. They did it because they knew they could get away with it. They did it because it might have worked, and they had nothing to lose if it didn't work. They knew they could get away with it. And they knew they could get away with it because they control our news and entertainment media.

And so here we are, 30 years into this shameful episode, 30 years after the treacherous and arrogant attack by Israel on the U.S.S. Liberty which killed 34 Americans and wounded 171 of them -- an attack which was intended to kill everyone aboard our ship. And for 30 years the media have maintained their blanket of silence, and the politicians have maintained their sickening pretense about our "gallant, little Jewish ally" in the Middle East.

From Day of Infamy, The Attack on the U.S.S. Liberty,
by Dr. William Pierce


For more information about this cold blooded murderous attact please visit >

http://www.ussliberty.com/

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Post by Don_Fernandez » Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:02 am

For a balanced overview of the USS Liberty Incident there's the Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
It includes links to sites that support guns' opinion as well as to sites that have a different opinion.
"Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase"
James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879)

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Post by Xipe_Totec » Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:45 am

Don_Fernandez wrote:For a balanced overview of the USS Liberty Incident there's the Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
It includes links to sites that support guns' opinion as well as to sites that have a different opinion.


Yeah, I had just finished reading the page, and I have to say that the case is shaky at best (short commentary on wikipedia article following).

The fact that the ship hadn't received the 5 messages that warned them to stay 100miles from the coast. Also, the fact that admiral Martin at 6th fleet HQ refused to supply an armed escort. The fact that aircrafts used napalm and machine guns, and that USS Liberty first fired upon the torpedo ships. As well the fact that the torpedo ships turned back and offered help when the mistake was noted, doesn't support well the idea of deliberate attack.

And even if you consider the motive. What would the Izraelis get from such an attack, and what would they lose? USA was their ally (although not as much as today) and chances of that alliance breaking up due to attack were very significant.
As for the reasons, we got a few claims. That the USA wouldn't know of the Golan Heights attack, when it was later proven that the USA knew of it beforehand?
To cover up a massacre of 1,000 Egyptian prisoners of war, when it was later shown that it was based on a misquoted news report. And that no Egypt research has shown any mass graves, in the area they ruled since 1980? (To misquote guns and david - if there ain't no graves, there ain't no bodies, there ain't no killin'.). And, additionally, a ship discovering mass graves, while 23km away? Yeah, right. :lol:
And you got the "coverup" plan by Israeli government and LBJ of blaming the attack on Egypt, thus enabling the USA to go to war on Israeli side. Which is, honestly, the most convincing argument. At least two aircraft rescue attempts were launched from US Aircraft Carriers, but both were recalled. Supposedly, because LBJ refused to embarass his allies (Israel).

I don't know.
Claiming it was a "murderous attemp"? Nyeah, a bit to much, considering the Israelis offered help and it was turned down by the US commander.
Claiming it was a conspiracy? Still a bit too much, although there might be something.
Claiming the reports are finished to hastly? Yeah, I'd probably agree.

But, nonetheless, guns' post is quite indicative of history revisionist groups. Picking the data they like, and ignoring the rest. Sort of like the Serbs claiming the US and NATO bombarded schools, kindergardens, hospitals and a chinese embassy on purpose. Yeah, right.
The Government did it.

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More misinformation

Post by gunsrgood » Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:30 pm

Calling the Israeli's murderous assult on the Liberty a mistake is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge it was just a mistake.

Here's more from "Day of Imfamy" by Dr. William Pierce

Of much more serious concern to the Jews was the interception by the Liberty of radio communications concerning their strategic military intentions: specifically their planned invasion of Syria.

Just after dawn, a twin-engine, propeller-driven Israeli reconnaissance plane flew out from the coast and slowly circled the Liberty three times. A little before 9:00 AM an Israeli jet fighter flew out and circled the Liberty. Throughout the morning and early afternoon, the Jews sent one aircraft after another out to circle the Liberty. Some of these aircraft flew so low that the crew members aboard the Liberty could see the faces of the pilots. The Jews were keeping the Liberty under very close observation and seemed to be concerned about the presence of the eavesdropper.

The Israelis finally decided to get rid of this threat to the secrecy of their military operations. At 2:00 PM several Israeli jet fighters streaked out from the coast and without warning began raking the Liberty from stem to stern with rockets, 30-mm cannon fire, and napalm. A number of Americans on the bridge and deck of the Liberty were killed immediately. The Jewish aircraft made pass after pass over the ship, pouring their fire into the helpless, slow-moving American target, riddling it from stem to stern with explosive ordnance and leaving it looking like a floating piece of Swiss cheese. The hull and superstructure of the Liberty had 821 holes larger than a man's fist from the rocket and cannon fire. Among other things the Jewish air attacks had shot away the Liberty’s radio antennas and wrecked the radio room.

As soon as the Israeli jets had exhausted their munitions and flown off, the crew immediately ran up another American flag to replace the one the Jews had shot away. The new flag was an oversize one, seven feet high and 13 feet long. Then, while the crew was fighting fires started by the aerial napalm attacks and attempting to tend to the wounded and dying men on the deck, three Israeli torpedo boats appeared and began raking the decks of the Liberty with 20-mm and 40-mm automatic cannon fire. The Liberty's life rafts in the water were machine-gunned by the Israelis. Then a torpedo from one of the torpedo boats struck the ship, tearing a large hole in its side below the waterline and killing 22 more crew members.

Just before the torpedo struck, the Liberty's radiomen had managed to rig an emergency antenna and get an auxiliary transmitter working. Throughout the attack the Jews were using radio jamming equipment in an attempt to drown out any radio message from the Liberty. Nevertheless, the Liberty managed to get off one radio message to the U.S. Sixth Fleet reporting the attack and calling for help. The Sixth Fleet, to the west in the Mediterranean, responded with a message that help was being sent. The U.S. aircraft carriers America and Saratoga launched jets which sped toward the Liberty.

As soon as the Jews realized that the Sixth Fleet had received the Liberty's signal, the attacks were halted. The clear intention of the Jews had been to disable the ship's radio communications and then sink it before a radio message could be sent. Any survivors in the water then would have been killed by the Jews. No one would be able to prove the Jews had done it, and it could be blamed on the Egyptians.

As soon as the Jews understood that their scheme had failed, they shifted from the military to the diplomatic mode. The murderous assault on the U.S.S. Liberty had been a "mistake," the Jews claimed. They had thought the ship was Egyptian, they told their media friends and their bought politicians in Washington.


Xipe_Totec writes: "
As well the fact that the torpedo ships turned back and offered help when the mistake was noted, doesn't support well the idea of deliberate attack."

Was that before or after they shot the life boats? Maybe the life boats shot at the torpedo boats first hu? Yeah right.

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Re: More misinformation

Post by Xipe_Totec » Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:10 pm

gunsrgood wrote:Was that before or after they shot the life boats? Maybe the life boats shot at the torpedo boats first hu? Yeah right.


After the USS Liberty opened fire on the torpedo boats, I'd guess.
The Government did it.

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Post by gunsrgood » Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:59 pm

Calling the Israeli's murderous assult on the Liberty a mistake is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge it was just a mistake.

Here's more from "Day of Imfamy" by Dr. William Pierce


Just after dawn, a twin-engine, propeller-driven Israeli reconnaissance plane flew out from the coast and slowly circled the Liberty three times. A little before 9:00 AM an Israeli jet fighter flew out and circled the Liberty. Throughout the morning and early afternoon, the Jews sent one aircraft after another out to circle the Liberty. Some of these aircraft flew so low that the crew members aboard the Liberty could see the faces of the pilots. The Jews were keeping the Liberty under very close observation and seemed to be concerned about the presence of the eavesdropper.

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Post by gunsrgood » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:06 pm

Calling the Israeli's murderous assult on the Liberty a mistake is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge it was just a mistake.


[quote]AMERICAN LEADERS SUPPORT USS Liberty SURVIVORS
The Israeli government, the AntiDefamation League, and
certain notorious apologists for Israel insist that the attack was
a tragic accident and that the US government accepts that assertion.
Not so. Virtually every knowledgeable American official with
the lone exception of Robert McNamara is on public record
calling the attack deliberate and the Israeli story untrue.
Here are a few of those American leaders.
Last edited by gunsrgood on Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by SkepticReport » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:11 pm

gunsrgood,

Do you honestly think you will persuade anyone here with your propaganda?

If you want to persuade people, don't state your point. Argue your point.

With evidence, not declarations.

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More false skepticism

Post by gunsrgood » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:34 pm

Calling the Israeli's murderous assult on the Liberty a mistake is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge it was just a mistake.

"Skeptic"Report writes:

"gunsrgood, Do you honestly think you will persuade anyone here with your propaganda? If you want to persuade people, don't state your point. Argue your point. With evidence, not declarations.

And Xipe_Totec writes:

"To cover up a massacre of 1,000 Egyptian prisoners of war, when it was later shown that it was based on a misquoted news report. And that no Egypt research has shown any mass graves, in the area they ruled since 1980? (To misquote guns and david - if there ain't no graves, there ain't no bodies, there ain't no killin'.). And, additionally, a ship discovering mass graves, while 23km away? Yeah, right."

So you two "skeptics" want evidence? Not only will I give you evidence, I have cought Xipe_Totec in a bald faced "mistake."

Why did Israel attack?

The facts are clear. Nearly every researcher who has seriously investigated the circumstances agrees that the attack was deliberate. Evidence is overwhelming. In any case, the attack on USS Liberty was a war crime even if one accepts the Israeli version of what happened, and we know that the Israeli version is untrue...

2. It is possible that they were afraid that Liberty might learn and report to the United States that Israeli forces were executing up to 1,000 Egyptian Prisoners of War at El Arish at the very moment that Liberty was just 13 miles off shore.

3. It is also possible that USS Liberty was attacked to prevent the ship from reporting a deliberate massacre of 14 Indian United Nations peacekeepers that took place in Gaza shortly before Israel's attack on USS Liberty.

Israeli apologists (and false skeptics - guns) dismiss these stories as untrue or wildly speculative, despite the fact that they are well documented. Israeli apologist-historian Michael Oren in his book "Six Days of War" and in published articles dismisses the claim as untrue claiming that, if it were true, there would be mass graves, reports in the major media, and great outcries from Egypt for justice.

Behold! There are mass graves, major media reports and cries for justice.

Attention is invited to

CNN reporting on the subject which reports the mass graves

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9509/mass_graves/

and a TIME Magazine story which reports the outcry

http://www.time.com/time/international/ ... eeast.html

More on the atrocities can be found in

Jim's report in The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs,
and in Jim Bamford's Body of Secrets.

Really "skeptic" report, if you would actually educate yourself about things before you spout off, then your false skepticsim wouldn't be so glaringly obvious.

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Re: More false skepticism

Post by Xipe_Totec » Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:09 pm

gunsrgood wrote:executing up to 1,000 Egyptian Prisoners of War


I don't know. I didn't see any bodies.
And the news says:
first link wrote:hundreds of massacred soldiers

second link wrote:the first grave contained the remains of approximately 90 people

second link wrote:identified a second grave....Israelis kill about 30 Egyptian soldiers

second link wrote:retired Israeli General Arieh Biro admitted last month that he had executed 49 Egyptian pows


See?
Where are the thousands you claim?
Even if you add all this up, you get 170 people max.
So there's obviously no 1000 victims, and no UN personel.

That's just an overblown number used to scare people into hating Jews.
The Government did it.

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Yet another bald faced "mistake" by a so-called &q

Post by gunsrgood » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:17 am

Calling the Israeli's murderous assult on the Liberty a mistake is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge it was just a mistake.

Xipe_Totec writes: "To cover up a massacre of 1,000 Egyptian prisoners of war, when it was later shown that it was based on a misquoted news report. And that no Egypt research has shown any mass graves, in the area they ruled since 1980?"

and: "See? Where are the thousands you claim?

guns responds: xipe, where on this thread did we first hear about 1,000 egyption prisionsers? Oh, here it is, never mind. It was on your first post on this link -
To cover up a massacre of 1,000 Egyptian prisoners of war, when it was later shown that it was based on a misquoted news report. And that no Egypt research has shown any mass graves, in the area they ruled since 1980? (To misquote guns and david - if there ain't no graves, there ain't no bodies, there ain't no killin'.). And, additionally, a ship discovering mass graves, while 23km away? Yeah, right.


So let me get this straight Xipe. Michael Shermer claims to have proven the latest jewish "holocaust" yet can't locate even a single mass grave at the largest mass gravesite in the history of mankind, i.e. - Treblinka, and you don't ask him to prove it. Now your quibling over the number of Egyptian soilders that the jews killed. And can you show me where I claimed that the jews killed "thousands?" And where did I claim that the liberty "discovered" mass graves?

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THE LIBERTY FOUNDATION

Post by gunsrgood » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:37 am

Calling the Israeli's murderous assult on the Liberty a mistake is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge it was just a mistake.

"Skeptic"Report and Xipe_Totec, Your bald faced "mistakes," propaganda and belittling of the murdered US soilders by the Israeli's would be shameful for someone with any shame. But this is the sort of thing I have come to expect from the people on this site (I'm begining to figure out more and more about Michael Shermer by what I am seeing here). Surely, after being caught so red handed in your bald faced "mistakes," you will want to join me in helping out the liberty foundation.

WE NEED YOU
After reading this article, if your American spirit is challenged, please write to the President of the United States and your congressmen requesting an official investigation. If enough citizens demand to know the truth, the pressure may be too great for our distracters to stop us. Make no mistake, our society will be the winners when the complete truth of the attack on the USS Liberty and the Six Day War (June 67) are fully understood. In addition, please write a tax deductible check or money order, if you can, to the USS Liberty Veterans Association (LVA) so that we can continue to purchase additional newspaper space in other parts of the country. Anyone who donates $100 or more will receive a free BBC film Dead in the Water DVD or VCR tape (your choice). It is the goal of the Liberty Foundation to publish this article in newspapers all over the country. This is the sole purpose of the fund. Please help!


For more information, please visity >

http://members.aol.com/w4lmk/libfndtn.htm

P.S. (I would like to see you say the things your intimating on this site to the faces of the survivors of the liberty. They would slap you to the ground and spit in your face).

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SHAMELESS

Post by gunsrgood » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:50 am

Calling the Israeli's murderous assult on the Liberty a mistake is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge it was just a mistake.

I have a question to all you "skeptics" on this site. Do you like the fact that your fellow "skeptics" are scoffing at and trying to belittle murdered US servicemen? Not killed, MURDERED! Premeditated, cold blooded murder so that the jews could steal yet more land?


from THE LIBERTY FOUNDATION site:

SYNOPSIS OF OUR STORY
On June 8, 1967, the Israeli Defense Forces murdered 34 Americans on the high seas (31 sailors, 2 marines, and a NSA civilian). Out of a total compliment of 294 men, 70% of the crew became casualties as 172 were wounded in addition to the 34 killed.

For 6 hours the morning before the attack, the ship was subjected to intense scrutiny by Israeli photo-reconnaissance aircraft flying as low as 200 feet. The USS Liberty had traditional American markings on her bow (GTR-5) and stern (USS LIBERTY) flying a large American Flag, which stood out in the breeze, and sailing in international waters on a clear and sunny day. The ship was a WWII victory hull cargo ship modified to monitor and record ambient radio transmission and lightly armed with four 50 caliber machine guns.

The Israelis began the attack with 3 fighter jets which strafed, rocketed, and bombed the Liberty. This was followed with 3 torpedo boats that fired 30mm canon and torpedoes. Since the Liberty was a virtually unarmed vessel and not a military threat, at no time did the torpedo boats request the Liberty to surrender as did the North Koreans regarding the USS Pueblo in 1968. Responding to our SOS which was about 15 minutes into the Israeli attack, the USS Saratoga launched conventionally armed fighter aircraft to assist the USS Liberty and the USS America launched nuclear armed jet aircraft to bomb Cairo. Why Cairo? Our SOS did not identify the attacker at the time as the identity of the attacker was unknown. Within minutes after the launch, the White House recalled all aircraft abandoning the USS Liberty subjecting us to an additional 2 hours of an Israeli turkey shoot. In disbelief, RADM Geis, Sixth Fleet Carrier Division Commander, challenged the order (as was his right and responsibility in this situation). Unbelievably, the White House again reaffirmed the order to recall all aircraft despite our plea for help. Israelis destroyed one of the most advanced intelligence ships.

The Liberty was riddled with 821 holes, sustained 2 napalm bombs, and a torpedo blowing a 22 by 39 foot hole in her starboard side killing 25 of the 34 murdered. Miraculously, the Liberty refused to sink and was able to get underway under her own power. The Israelis were observed machine gunning 3 life rafts. It was obvious to the Liberty crew that survivors were not to be taken. When hostilities ceased, helicopters were observed overhead with Israeli commandos at the ready to finish us off. Fortuitously, the Israelis picked up an invalid message that U.S. help was on the way. Israel was reluctantly forced to terminate its ongoing attack. Ironically help did not arrive until 18 hours after the attack when the Liberty was only 15 minutes away from USS Saratoga and USS America fighter jets.

The US Naval official inquiry was deliberately falsified to compliment the Israeli story (as testified by retired Navy Lawyer, Captain Ward Boston). Details acquired were either changed or dropped so that the Israeli version which became public was that the attack was a tragic mistake. The orders to falsify came directly from President Johnson for political reasons. The survivors of the USS Liberty were told never to talk about the incident under penalty of fine and/or imprisonment. Military orders that followed were in line with the White House which was not to indicate on any monuments and the like that Israel was the attacker. The USS Liberty skipper, Captain William McGonagle was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for his actions to keep the ship afloat and operational. His award was given to him not by President Johnson at the White House. There is no other explanation to believe other than the President did not want to jeopardize the Jewish vote in an upcoming presidential election. The Captain’s medal was presented to him by the Secretary of the Navy at a low level Washington Navy Yard ceremony.


Real nice people you surround yourself with Mr. Shermer!

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Re: SHAMELESS

Post by Don_Fernandez » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:20 am

gunsrgood wrote:Calling the Israeli's murderous assult on the Liberty a mistake is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge it was just a mistake.

Repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it true...

I have a question to all you "skeptics" on this site. Do you like the fact that your fellow "skeptics" are scoffing at and trying to belittle murdered US servicemen?
If they were doing what you claim I'd be disgusted.
The skepticism is about the motivations and causes of the attack. That does not belittle those deaths.
I see room for that skepticism about the causes.
I don't see that the only conclusion was that it was a deliberate murder.

The fact is that I can't dislike what you say, because it's not fact, it's only your opinion.

I am disgusted instead by the apparent anti-semitism in your posts.

The only good thing I see coming out of this is that it's becoming more and more evident where your motivation lies...

But maybe that's just my opinion.
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James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879)

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Post by NoZed Avenger » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:31 am

Asking the same -- circular and fallacious -- question multiple times gives it no special magic.

Repeating the same cut-n-paste screed makes it no more persuasive and no more credible on the second, fifth, or fiftieth repetition.

This attack was the subject of at least ten separate investigations in the US. The investigators had access to the recordings and transcripts of military chatter, amongst other evidence. There may well have been more investigations that I am unaware of, but these have been well documented:

(1) U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry (1967)
CONCLUSION: The attack was a case of mistaken identity.

(2) CIA Investigation Report (1967)
CONCLUSION: The attack was a mistake and not intentional.

(3) Clifford Report (1967)
CONCLUSION: No premeditation; negligence and gross negligence on part of Israeli military.

(4) Senate Committee on Foreign Relations (1967)
No conclusion; McNamara (Sec Def) testified that his conclusion was that the attack was not intentional.

(5) Senate Armed Services Committee (1968)
No conclusion; testimony from McNamara as above.

(6) House Appropriations Committee (1968)
No conclusion regarding Israeli action; indicated Navy communications problem may have contributed.

(7) House Armed Services Committee (1971)
Also cited problems with Navy communications; made no conclusion regarding Israeli actions.

(8)Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (1979)
CONCLUSION: "[N]o merit" to claim attack was intentional.

(9) NSA Report (1981)
CONCLUSION: Mistaken for an Egyptian ship -- cited miscalculations and "egregious errors," but no intent.

(10) House Armed Services Committee [Subcom.on Investigations] (1991)
CONCLUSION: No evidence to support allegations of intentional attack.

Many of the documents can still be obtained fromthe Library of Congress. A summary can be found in the following dissertation: A.J. Cristol, "The Liberty Incident," Ph.D. dissertation, University of Miami, 1997, pp. 86-113.

But assuming arguendo that all ten investigations missed the tons and tons of crucial evidence out there, say for the moment that the attack in 1967 was intentional. . . . Then what: That disproves the Holocaust? Or makes it justified because of "Jews steal[ing] yet more land? Is there anything else that this is supposed to lead to?

And how does attacking a US service ship lead to Jews getting land, exactly? If the US thought it was an intentional attack - in those days - a fleet of bombers would be over the offending country in half a day and there would be plenty of flat land, but not much else, within a week. I fail to see the motive, or how those crafty Joos thought they'd get land.

It seems to be:

STEP 1: Bomb US Ship and kill servicemen.

STEP 2: ?????

STEP 3: PROFIT! (In form of YET MORE LAND)





We've seen Treblinka trotted out. We've seen Auschwitz, and now the USS Liberty. What's next? Zyklon B and the hoaxed diary of Anne Frank?

Got anything NEW? Or is this all warmed-over David Irving stuff and old Stormfront files that you've cut-n-pasted dozens of times before?

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Post by Graculus » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:00 am

Isn't it time to trot out the Denver Airport thing?

BTW, how did they manage that massacre with those foreign photojournalists there who were taking pictures the entire time?

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Nice people you surround yourself with Mr. Shermer

Post by gunsrgood » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:26 pm

Calling the Israeli's murderous assult on the Liberty a mistake is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge it was just a mistake.


I suppose all you "skeptics" believe that the israeli massacre of inocent Palestinian women and childred at Deir Yassin was a mistake also?
Last edited by gunsrgood on Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by SkepticReport » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:39 pm

The above text was taken from here:
http://69.28.73.17/documentaries.html

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Post by gunsrgood » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:42 pm

Thank you skepticreport

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Post by Chaos » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:58 pm

SkepticReport wrote:The above text was taken from here:
http://69.28.73.17/documentaries.html


Don´t do that. Let him get busted for violating copyright.

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Post by Raskolnikov » Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:08 pm

Isaac Davis: Has anybody read that Nazis are gonna march in New Jersey? Y'know, I read this in the newspaper. We should go down there, get some guys together, y'know, get some bricks and baseball bats and really explain things to them.

Party Guest: There is this devastating satirical piece on that on the Op Ed page of the Times, it is devastating.

Isaac Davis: Well, a satirical piece in the Times is one thing, but bricks and baseball bats really gets right to the point.


-- Manhattan

I usually dive into the historical debates here head first, but that is because I usually think I am dealing with reasonable, persuadable people. Kudos to those who have the stomach to take this on.

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More false skepticism

Post by gunsrgood » Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:14 pm

Chaos writes:

Don´t do that. Let him get busted for violating copyright.


Ah yes, just another fine example of the "skeptics" that can be found on this site.

And Raskolnikov writes:

I usually dive into the historical debates here head first, but that is because I usually think I am dealing with reasonable, persuadable people. Kudos to those who have the stomach to take this on.


Well thank you Rask. It's about time another real skepic showed up on this site.

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Re: More false skepticism

Post by SkepticReport » Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:22 pm

gunsrgood wrote:Ah yes, just another fine example of the "skeptics" that can be found on this site.


I was - too subtly, it seems - giving you a chance to remove the text.

Alas, in vain. Your post has been reported.

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Post by Skepchick » Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:32 pm

Raskolnikov wrote:
Isaac Davis: Has anybody read that Nazis are gonna march in New Jersey? Y'know, I read this in the newspaper. We should go down there, get some guys together, y'know, get some bricks and baseball bats and really explain things to them.

Party Guest: There is this devastating satirical piece on that on the Op Ed page of the Times, it is devastating.

Isaac Davis: Well, a satirical piece in the Times is one thing, but bricks and baseball bats really gets right to the point.


-- Manhattan

I usually dive into the historical debates here head first, but that is because I usually think I am dealing with reasonable, persuadable people. Kudos to those who have the stomach to take this on.


Frankly, I was expecting a comment about Illinois Nazis. I agree with your feeling, Raskolnikov. At the same time it is worse that these comments go unchallenged. I would be saddened if this place got a reputation as a denier's playground.
Last edited by Skepchick on Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Raskolnikov » Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:32 pm

Well thank you Rask. It's about time another real skepic showed up on this site.


My "kudos" were aimed at those who have been disagreeing with you. But as you were. I wasn't trying to stage a putsch against the thread topic.

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Re: Nice people you surround yourself with Mr. Shermer

Post by NoZed Avenger » Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:37 pm

gunsrgood wrote:Calling the Israeli's [snip]



Asking the same -- circular and fallacious -- question multiple times gives it no special magic.

Repeating the same cut-n-paste screed makes it no more persuasive and no more credible on the second, fifth, or fiftieth repetition.

This attack was the subject of at least ten separate investigations in the US. Not one of those investigations supports your allegations.

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Post by gunsrgood » Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:06 pm

Calling the Israeli's murderous assult on the Liberty a mistake is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge it was just a mistake.


[quote]Quote:
AMERICAN LEADERS SUPPORT USS Liberty SURVIVORS
The Israeli government, the AntiDefamation League, and
certain notorious apologists for Israel insist that the attack was
a tragic accident and that the US government accepts that assertion.
Not so. Virtually every knowledgeable American official with
the lone exception of Robert McNamara is on public record
calling the attack deliberate and the Israeli story untrue.
Here are a few of those American leaders.



For more information about this cold blooded murderous attact please visit >

http://www.ussliberty.com/

Nice people you surround yourself with Shermer. It's good to see I'm keeping the adl busy.
Last edited by gunsrgood on Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by SkepticReport » Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:08 pm

Skepchick wrote:I would be saddened if this place got a reputation as a denier's playground.


No worries. It won't.

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Post by NoZed Avenger » Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:15 pm

At least it was a new cut-n-paste screed.

Here is a (reasonably neutral) cite that gathers a ton of resources, links to the actual investigations, and gives arguments and links for both sides.

http://www.answers.com/topic/uss-liberty-incident

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Post by Mycroft » Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:28 pm

gunsrgood wrote:Calling the Israeli's murderous assult on the Liberty a mistake is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge it was just a mistake.


Nonsense. It's this conspiracy theory crap that makes no sense.

On one hand it requires us to believe the Israelis need to cover something up so bad they're willing to attack a US war ship. Whatever "it" is changes, but it's always some terrible attrocity that must be kept secret from the world.

On the other hand, it requires us to believe the Israelis (or Jews) are so powerful they can force our government and our media to participate in a cover-up of huge scale to protect Israel from the consequences of the attack.

The problem is if the International Evil Zionist Conspiracy is so powerful that it can do that, then it has no need to attack the ship to begin with. All this souper sekrit conspiracy needs to do is the much easier task of covering up whatever that ship learned, which starts out being top secret anyway.

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Post by Skepchick » Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:56 pm

And obviously the International Jewish Conspiracy which holds the Congress, CIA, US Army and so forth in its pocket is unable to quiet the voices of wisdom in the wilderness. It also is unable to stage a half coherent secret attack. Sheesh, wouldn't they at least hide magendavid's on their aircraft?
That's those Jews for ya- all powerful and incompetent.
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Post by Chaos » Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:17 pm

Yeah, that´s just about what I was wondering, too. This Evil Jewish World Conspiracy has no qualms about attack a warship and killing its crew - for whatever reason -, and they certainly have the means to do so.

On the other hand, they leave people like gunsrgood and David alive.

Strange conspiracy, that is. I could do better in my sleep.

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Post by SkepticReport » Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:11 pm

Skepchick wrote:That's those Jews for ya- all powerful and incompetent.


That's the key, isn't it?

This Worldwide Jewish Conspiracy is claimed to be both all powerful, to the extent of controlling governments all over the place. But, at the same time, it is such a ridiculously incompetent conspiracy that they can't even think of covering up their own tracks. The EVIDENCE is there, for everyone to see, right?

If this is such a Big Seekrit, why in the bleedin' hell are there so many people talking about it?

Yeah, that's just part of the secrecy: To let everyone in on the secret!

Idiots. But I don't feel sorry for them.

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Post by Pyrrho » Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:22 pm

[mod]Just a reminder to all participants to keep the discussion "civil", meaning that verbal abuse is to be avoided.[/mod]

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Post by Pyrrho » Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:04 am

gunsrgood wrote:Thank you skepticreport

[mod]gunsrgood, please remove the copyrighted text from your post above:

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=21379#21379

The website you copied it from has this explicit copyright notice at the bottom of the page:

"Copyright © 2004, WING TV ® All rights reserved. Website by pcStudios."

"All rights reserved" means that you cannot cut and paste large portions of articles from that site. You may post a link to the site, with a very brief, relevant portion of the article, but not as much as you have posted. If you do not edit your post, I'll have to edit it for you.

Please respect the copyrights of other sites and avoid copying and pasting large portions of their articles here. This is clearly explained in our forum rules.
[/mod]

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Post by gunsrgood » Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:25 am

Thanks maestro, but I still need some tutoring to figure out how to edit my posts.


Calling the Israeli's murderous assult on the Liberty a mistake is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge it was just a mistake.

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Post by Raskolnikov » Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:06 pm

Calling the Israeli's murderous assult on the Liberty a mistake is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge it was just a mistake.


"Repetition is the lynchpin of propaganda." Joseph Goebbels.

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Post by Pyrrho » Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:55 pm

gunsrgood wrote:Thanks maestro, but I still need some tutoring to figure out how to edit my posts.


Calling the Israeli's murderous assult on the Liberty a mistake is like a home invasion rapist / murderer telling a judge it was just a mistake.

Go to the post; click on the "Edit" button; highlight the text you need to remove; press "Delete" on your keyboard; click on the "Submit" button to finish.

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Re: Thousands and the dead

Post by Xipe_Totec » Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:36 am

gunsrgood wrote:And can you show me where I claimed that the jews killed "thousands?"


Here:
gunsrgood wrote:2. It is possible that they were afraid that Liberty might learn and report to the United States that Israeli forces were executing up to 1,000 Egyptian Prisoners of War at El Arish at the very moment that Liberty was just 13 miles off shore.


Btw.
You claimed "thousands", I showed 170 max.
You say you're a revisionist?
Well, then? Revise!

gunsrgood wrote:And where did I claim that the liberty "discovered" mass graves?


Of course they didn't.
The evil joos killded them yanks before they coulda dig up the gypts.
At least by your reckoning, I think.

As for your disgust by my anti-americanism.
I'm not an american, and there's didley squat you can do about it, or about my opinion. The fact that you cite National Vanguard, that apparently holds the position of Serbian innocence in the slaughterhouse in the Balkans in the 90ies, shows to me you hold no respect for the dead, unless, ofcourse, they fit your bigot and anti-semitic ideas.
(As for the rest, I hope it's evident that I'm not belittling the dead and wounded marines, as I do gunsrgood's bigot opinions).

gunsrgood wrote:P.S. (I would like to see you say the things your intimating on this site to the faces of the survivors of the liberty. They would slap you to the ground and spit in your face).


Likewise.
I'd like to see you requote National Vanguard to Vukovar or Srebrenica survivors. Oh, wait. There ain't any.
The Government did it.

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Post by jj » Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:37 pm

You know, we have two possibilities here:

The first is "fog of war". Anyone with any real military experience knows this exists, and is a huge problem.

The second is that one of the most competent nations in the world, like them or not, ran an attack, willfully, on an asset belonging to their staunchest ally, because of some reason that nobody can produce, nobody can find, nobody can come with leads to, evidence of, or even a suggestion thereof.

The first is an entirely ordinary situation, sadly enough.

The second is an extremely extraordinary idea, for which no evidence, ordinary, let along extraordinary, has been provided.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Why does an infallable book have to be constantly revised?