REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Where have we been?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:19 pm

Thats what I wonder as I listen to Ta-Nehisi Coates with the current blip of this issue being resurrected. I'd like to see a good survey with opinions grouped by race. I assume there would be a difference? Not worth listening to: McDonnell on the right and Kamala Harris on the left.

I like this issue because I have one opinion, but I think it "could be" based on bias/racism more than the logic I like to think I'm applying?

..........................and it comes close to an issue that I only recently changed my mind on: White Privilege. I was against that notion when I first heard it. Over time though, I've come to see it still has a great and "unfair" influence on many social issues still current today. IS REPARATIONS ONE OF THEM????? Heh, heh.......fun to mull that over in my mind.

Coates said one thing I mostly agree with: if the issue is one of how to establish the damages that are CURRENTLY calculable, then "let's do that study" so that we have something real/actionable to talk about. That would be fascinating. Are blacks that did voluntarily immigrate after slavery eligible? Are freed blacks that held slaves themselves eligible?? Are Millionaire blacks of today elligible??? How should Jim Crow be applied???? ..... so many questions. None of them answered/affected by "We fought the Civil War as compensation." No....don't see that equation at all. Just the passage of time.........

Just the passage of time.........my neighbor a few doors down is a 90 yo black man. Very interesting fellow laid up in bed now but we talk now and then. Turns out he "knew" his grandmother who was born a slave. Wow. A living (barely?) person with a "real" connection to slavery. Blows my mind. He's overcome a lot in his life...probably could have achieved more as a white guy. Should he or his kiddies get REPARATIONS?

My general opinion is no, but like most of my opinions, I'm not HARD SET. Pros and Cons to all we do. More fair is more complicated.....perhaps too complicated to do which is much of my opinion. Why do a simple program that is mostly unfair just to hit a fair target???

Alterantives to Reparations? What would they be........evidently social programs don't work.

Ha, ha.............Original sin. Usually sinks the boat.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5331
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by ElectricMonk » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:30 pm

It's not a bad thing to be reminded of from time to time ...
... which ironically is a good reason not to do it.

According to TurdTurtle, having endured a Black President absolves the US from all injustices based on race and history. That is of course a stupid but unfortunately widespread opinion.
Having any kind of formal Reparations would probably cause a massive backlash.

But I find it academically useful to come up with a number, and then perhaps use that as a tool to steer funding of infrastructure / education in primarily colored and underfunded areas.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:53 pm

Agree with the Turd. Its why he's my exemplar of the right. Kamala: don't really recall what she said, but it struck me as too shrill and just pandering to who she thinks supports her? Rather short sighted on her part. Not good in a President?

As to steering funding.......I think we already did that as in LBJ's War on Poverty, Head Start and what not? Either expressly or by unavoidable effect. The point there being that it won't silence the rumbles for reparations unless the great majority of blacks support that program as such.........and I don't think they will. They want a Condo and a car, as promised.

Heard a good one yesterday. THERE WAS REPARATIONS FOR SLAVERY.........undertaken by US Gubment right after the end of the Civil War. We made the slave holders whole for all the property they lost. $300 per lost slave. Yes.......nothing for the actual slaves. Ha, ha....seems the same thing occurred several times in history. The other example being the country of Haiti owing France some sum of money for overthrowing the slavery system there.

Talk about your evil...............
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Tom Palven
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6285
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:39 am

Walter Williams asks;

"What about the descendants of Northern whites who fought and died in the name of freeing slaves?
Should they pay reparations to black Americans?...
There’s another possible reparations issue completely ignored: Blacks as well as whites live on land taken, sometimes brutally, from American Indians. Do blacks and whites owe American Indians anything?"
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2019/06/wal ... r-slavery/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:10 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:39 am


"What about the descendants of Northern whites who fought and died in the name of freeing slaves?
Should they pay reparations to black Americans?...//// Yes, thats the issue.

There’s another possible reparations issue completely ignored: Blacks as well as whites live on land taken, sometimes brutally, from American Indians. Do blacks and whites owe American Indians anything?" //// No, thats not the issue.

Try to focus.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:48 am

A little background on Reparations Legislation lifted from PIAS without his permission:

ttps://finance.yahoo.com/news/40-acres ... 019-190018

A new bill would calculate potential costs of reparations — and by Yahoo Finance estimates, these could reach as high as $17.1 trillion.

Last week, the House Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties held the first hearing in a decade on H.R. 40, the Commission to Study and Develop Reparation Proposals for African-Americans Act. The bill was first introduced in 1989 by former Congressman John Conyers (D-MI). Conyers reintroduced the bill each year until his retirement in 2017 — and each year, the bill languished in Congress.

retroactive fines , how much should they be ?
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=31540&p=716747#p716747
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:59 am

If fighting the Civil War is not reparations (("I don't see why it would be" because the CW was fought to prevent secession...the reason why the South wanted to being irrelevant)), and if Social Programs for the poor in general are deemed not effective or inadequate or even: not the issue then I can't think of a good reason for Congress not to establish how much money can be made available to "make good" on (Forty Acres and a Mule). You'd have to pay me to ake a mule, but I'd accept 40 acres just about anywhereor the value thereof.

Set up the "rules" to qualify and split the funds available among all who qualify? Could be fun to go thru what those rules should be................eg: a direct relative who was slave?........I know: discriminating against all the blacks who came to USA after 1865 and got hosed by Jim Crow. Hmmm....should blacks who's grand-parents were slaves in Haiti so they moved to USA in 1866 have access to the USA Fund?? Should France pay the reparations THEY demanded for the Slave Owners pay that money back?

How about reparations for injuries caused by Jim Crow?

How about reparation for injuries being caused RIGHT NOW for discriminatory laws like smokable vs injectable heroin....or whatever that drug distinction is?

Life is unfair..........."big time." Is money the remedy? A minimum acknowledgement while the injuries continue?

"....♫....Whats it all about Alfie?........♫
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:22 am

The problem with reparations is where you stop. Everyone in this planet has ancestors who were hard done by due to evil action by some group or other.

Here in NZ the reparations programmes well under way. Our native Maori people lost a lot of land due to greedy colonists, and we have a tribunal organising compensation for the various tribes. It has proven very difficult, and not all claims for compensation have been honest. Not that I am arguing. They are due compensation and it is right and proper to deliver. But it is not easy to sort out what should be done.

The other problem is that there is simply not enough money for fair reparations. If a human life is worth (say) five million dollars, then no government could raise that amount for every deserving case. It would need hundreds of trillions. Any reparation would not be enough.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:26 am

Interesting situation there in NZ. I don't know the issue that well.....but seems to me reparations to blacks is more due to the promise made to them of 40 acres and a mule? At least that is a legal basis rather than one on just bleeding heart liberalism. No such promise made to the Irish and so forth.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:34 am

Forty acres and a mule is part of Special Field Orders No. 15, a promise made by the United States government for agrarian reform to aid formerly enslaved black farmers.
Forty acres and a mule - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty_acres_and_a_mule

So...........THATS why Lincoln was assassinated? I don't think such sweeping "agrarian reform" should be done by Presidential order. Sounds like more a legislative issue.....ha, ha.....the deathknell for any progressive, fair and just changes to American society?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1699
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am
Custom Title: eugenics never stopped

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:45 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:22 am
The problem with reparations is where you stop. Everyone in this planet has ancestors who were hard done by due to evil action by some group or other.

Here in NZ the reparations programmes well under way. Our native Maori people lost a lot of land due to greedy colonists, and we have a tribunal organising compensation for the various tribes. It has proven very difficult, and not all claims for compensation have been honest. Not that I am arguing. They are due compensation and it is right and proper to deliver. But it is not easy to sort out what should be done.

The other problem is that there is simply not enough money for fair reparations. If a human life is worth (say) five million dollars, then no government could raise that amount for every deserving case. It would need hundreds of trillions. Any reparation would not be enough.
A new bill would calculate potential costs of reparations — and by Yahoo Finance estimates, these could reach as high as $17.1 trillion.

you are right ; any reparation would not be enough - 17 trillion would only be the beginning

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 12179
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by TJrandom » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:16 pm

ElectricMonk said it above - infrastructure and education, focused primarily in areas of greater need. Nothing like education to level the playing field.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:39 am

Yeah.....education is IT. Jobs come second but not near first as in order to actually qualify for a good job...you need the good education to go with it. So....its education. "De Facto" segregated and discriminatory today more than every before as based on District Lines and the wealth of the people/tax rate within that district. Given the American System........pretty much it has to stay that way and it is very destructive to bus kiddies around after people buy their homes primarily based on what they can afford, then what school district its in, then how close to work........least wise, that what my parents always did. A fairer system would be to allow the discrimination to continue but to moderate it so that some general taxation/property taxation amount was spend on the poorly funded schools to assure they met some minimum standard. EG: provide at least books and lunch? After that: hope you were born to the right parents.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Tom Palven
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6285
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:53 am

To employ a beastly rebuttal, education in the US has become a sacred cow rat hole.

Neither Mark Twain, the Wright Bros. nor Thomas Edison finished high school. Bill Gates didn't finish college...
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:16 am

I agree with your position, but your argument/evidence for it demonstrates the very weakness we both observe.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11685
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by landrew » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:02 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:53 am
To employ a beastly rebuttal, education in the US has become a sacred cow rat hole.

Neither Mark Twain, the Wright Bros. nor Thomas Edison finished high school. Bill Gates didn't finish college...
Argument from Authority is a fallacy, and it's a bit of a myth that an educational degree gives you special authority.

Amusing video anecdote (can't remember where I saw it) but a diner was bashing a waiter by asserting that he was correct by virtue of the fact that he had a doctorate. To have made such a fool of himself on camera surely proves the fallacy.

Wait, I found the clip.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 12179
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:25 pm

I believe that education is the single best attribute that can both predict and further individual success. (Though I have no data to support this. Early age nutrition may outrank education.) That there are exceptions is understood, but they certainly don't speak to no education being the preference. Better schools, properly supplied, with well paid teachers, seems to be a no-brainer to me.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:50 pm

Education is important. The higher the educational achievement (especially in science) and the greater the chance the person will be an atheist.

Actually, it also correlates (as an overall average) with income, with health, and with lifespan.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11685
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by landrew » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:18 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:50 pm
Education is important. The higher the educational achievement (especially in science) and the greater the chance the person will be an atheist.

Actually, it also correlates (as an overall average) with income, with health, and with lifespan.
...except for all the billionaires.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 12179
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:22 pm

I found this , which lists success factors. Education is not mentioned except in saying that the top ones can be learned. That said, I don’t believe these top 8 factors can be obtained without education. I do accept that extensive education is unlikely to cause one to master one or more of them, and that to do so probably requires that one put what has been learned into practice, and that practice further enhancing these factors.

This article (go ahead and click on the Full Report to see the PDF) shows the gap between US Black vs White educational achievement in reading and math – and the discrepancy is stunning.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:30 pm

Those eight skills, TJ, are incomplete. In fact, I would regard them as more a list of what someone thinks SHOULD be key than reality. The list is not total bool shite, but needs expansion.

Intelligence and education both correlate with success. The other thing that everyone ignores as being inconvenient is the idea that pure blind luck is important also. Many successful enterprises succeed because they start in a time or place that is right, and that is based on luck. No one will ever know how many fail despite the merit of the entrepreneur because he or she is simply unlucky.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:03 pm

Worse than incomplete.......the 8 more important traits than intelligence were evaluated AFTER THE ENTIRE GROUP had already been screened/filtered for superior intelligence.

NOT a very intelligent analysis. More about selling career advancement seminars.

"Blind Luck" as a factor. ==>What? You forgot everything you ever knew about statistics and correlations?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 12179
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by TJrandom » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:53 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:30 pm
Those eight skills, TJ, are incomplete. In fact, I would regard them as more a list of what someone thinks SHOULD be key than reality. The list is not total bool shite, but needs expansion.

Intelligence and education both correlate with success. The other thing that everyone ignores as being inconvenient is the idea that pure blind luck is important also. Many successful enterprises succeed because they start in a time or place that is right, and that is based on luck. No one will ever know how many fail despite the merit of the entrepreneur because he or she is simply unlucky.


No issues with that. I was just pushing back on the 'education is not important' meme, or that it shouldn't be considered as part of reparations. I really don't care if reparations are implemented. A simple test for reading and math skills should be sufficient to trigger additional investments/expenditure in targeted education.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6285
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:40 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:50 pm
Education is important. The higher the educational achievement (especially in science) and the greater the chance the person will be an atheist.

Actually, it also correlates (as an overall average) with income, with health, and with lifespan.
What's the phrase? Correlation doesn't equal cause?

Could be that people growing up as or developing into atheists tend to be critical thinkers which helps them make better life decisions, including seeing the advantages of acquiring diplomas.

And they probably don't spend much of their earnings on lottery tickets.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 12179
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by TJrandom » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:24 am

I was an atheist by the time I entered HS but didn't admit it until sometime after HS.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11685
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by landrew » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:55 pm

I'm well-endowed with education, but I'll be the first to admit that it's only a tool, useless in the hands of a fool.

Personal ability is what counts, and many of those with exceptional abilities don't bother with their education, and go on to become billionaires.

An educational degree does prove one thing; you have shown the ability to finish something you started.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:51 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:55 pm
I'm well-endowed with education ========> useless in the hands of a fool.
Yep: demonstrated with virtually every post.
landrew wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:55 pm
Personal ability is what counts, and many of those with exceptional abilities don't bother with their education, and go on to become billionaires.
"Many"?........and what data do you have for that statement? .......and........what makes being a billionaire a marker for exceptional abilities???? If stupid hurt, you'd be screaming in pain.
landrew wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:55 pm
An educational degree does prove one thing; you have shown the ability to finish something you started.
Dear Old Dad said it showed you were socialized and ready to be part of society.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:32 pm

Tom

Education correlates with atheism, but most strongly if the education is in science.

In the USA, which has the strongest religiosity of any western nation (IIRC, about 70% ?), those with a doctorate in science are 95% atheist. Those with doctorates in liberal arts are about as religious as the national average.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 12179
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by TJrandom » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:21 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:55 pm
I'm well-endowed with education, but I'll be the first to admit that it's only a tool, useless in the hands of a fool.

Personal ability is what counts, and many of those with exceptional abilities don't bother with their education, and go on to become billionaires.

An educational degree does prove one thing; you have shown the ability to finish something you started.
I'd say 'some', not 'many' ignore education and become billionaires - as after all, there aren't that many billionaires. If I were to try to become a billionaire, I certainly wouldn't skip education. I agree that education is a tool, and if used can be very useful. When I finished my MBA I went from $57k to over 200k in that next job, the following month. And I did use specific knowledge gained in the MBA numerous times over my career. Plus in the corporate world, the credential itself demonstrated 'fit' with the other senior managers, all with their own advanced educational qualifications.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:56 pm

For studies of correlation, using formal education as an element is totally fine. but for individual success, formal education should not be raised above self taught and/or mentored. You have to "know what you are doing" to succeed. That comes by way of experience.....gained in life or in school. Reading and seeing. and as always: different strokes for different folks. Every general rule has exceptions. The exceptions, are not the rule.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
mpsmitty
New Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:31 pm
Custom Title: Lurker - Sometimes Poster
Location: U.S.

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by mpsmitty » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:33 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:56 pm
For studies of correlation, using formal education as an element is totally fine. but for individual success, formal education should not be raised above self taught and/or mentored. You have to "know what you are doing" to succeed. That comes by way of experience.....gained in life or in school. Reading and seeing. and as always: different strokes for different folks. Every general rule has exceptions. The exceptions, are not the rule.
While I agree there are many paths to success, I would, and still, advocate for formal education on an individual level. There is a reason why you, yourself, call them 'exceptions.' I'm pretty sure you didn't teach yourself to fly.
I have a day job and night time job (kids), therefore I might not immediately respond.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:18 pm

Thanks smitty.....I didn't review the whole thread, but your quote structurally appears to be as much a comment on someone elses emphasis rather than a singular point of my own...........but I'll restate: co-relations are "just fine" BUT BY DEFINITION: they apply to "groups." INDIVIDUALS...should be looked at individually as to what they would best benefit from. SOCIETY doesn't do individuals well, so we have education as the best way to treat a GROUP.

You can see the two different issues.............

And my way of thinking is that flying is not an education, but rather a skill. Skills are 99.9% taught. Different issue again.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Wordbird
Poster
Posts: 424
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:03 pm

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by Wordbird » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:55 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:30 pm
Having any kind of formal Reparations would probably cause a massive backlash.
Good. Let the idiots backlash. Then we can have an end to this nonsense about how people have a right to be racist as long as they never do anything about it.

Shove justice in their faces. Then they will do something. Then they can be punished as they already deserve.

User avatar
Goody67
Regular Poster
Posts: 638
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:55 pm

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by Goody67 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:52 am

Wordbird wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:55 pm
ElectricMonk wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:30 pm
Having any kind of formal Reparations would probably cause a massive backlash.
Good. Let the idiots backlash. Then we can have an end to this nonsense about how people have a right to be racist as long as they never do anything about it.

Shove justice in their faces. Then they will do something. Then they can be punished as they already deserve.
How are you able to control what other people think? Unfortunately, there are always going to be racists, sexists, etc. Also, it is worth bearing in mind that the definition of “racist” varies - there is not one single definition.

What justice would that be for someone having different opinions to yours?
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.” - Robert Pirsig

User avatar
Wordbird
Poster
Posts: 424
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:03 pm

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by Wordbird » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:48 pm

You totally missed the point of my post. When someone is a racist, they're always committing little injustices under the radar. They subsist on it. They call the police on black people constantly, for example, for no crime. There's nobody in the whole world who's a racist and just happens to treat everyone equally. They're getting away with everything they can.

Reparations should happen. Then the idiot racists won't be able to confine themselves to small injustices they can get away with. They will backlash and be punished.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:11 pm

Wordbird wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:48 pm
There's nobody in the whole world who's a racist and just happens to treat everyone equally. They're getting away with everything they can.
Thats nonsense. Like most "things" racism falls on a continuum with different degrees of involvement/commitment/atrocities being demonstrated. You've been told, but continue to cling to One Rule for everything? Not very studied.
Wordbird wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:48 pm
Reparations should happen. Then the idiot racists won't be able to confine themselves to small injustices they can get away with. They will backlash and be punished.
I get you are keeping the rolling joke going.......but its just not true. The continuum may gain another wrinkle, but its still there. Sadly: most racism is NOT punished. Thats why it has always been with us and will be as far as I can see. We is hoped is that INSTITUTIONALIZED racism will be stomped down as much as hoomans can do.........and very longer term, enough dna mixing to make the issue "almost" go away.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Wordbird
Poster
Posts: 424
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:03 pm

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by Wordbird » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:07 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:11 pm
Thats nonsense.
No, it's basically definitional. If you treat everyone exactly equally then you're not a racist.

Underlying biases come out in behaviour. Yes, always. We can account for them as much as possible but that's never 100%. Some people take the easy way out and just overcompensate and punch people they think are Nazis. This is still a result of bias.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:11 pm
Sadly: most racism is NOT punished.
I don't want to punish people for thinking things. I want to punish them for doing things.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:03 am

Wordbird wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:07 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:11 pm
Thats nonsense.
No, it's basically definitional. If you treat everyone exactly equally then you're not a racist.
HEY!==>Thats MY line. So, lets see. I was responding to:
Wordbird wrote: ↑
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:48 am
There's nobody in the whole world who's a racist and just happens to treat everyone equally. They're getting away with everything they can.
Thats the set up for a fairly well known joke: "He doesn't hate you, he hates everybody." Said about every other show on Archie Bunker? I am making a distinction, which is definitional, between racism that someone can be thinking vs overt racism in how they act. The discussion can continue definitionally from here as you wish recognizing or not that it would be rare indeed and require a few more definitions to find anyone that treats all people the same.
Wordbird wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:07 am
Underlying biases come out in behaviour.
Agreed. Bias aka racism does exist without behavior being displayed.
Wordbird wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:07 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:11 pm
Sadly: most racism is NOT punished.
I don't want to punish people for thinking things. I want to punish them for doing things.
Again, we agree. You get no points for flip flopping on your definition/application of racism to find disagreement..........although that can be fun if you're into that sort of thing.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Wordbird
Poster
Posts: 424
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:03 pm

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by Wordbird » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:00 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:03 am
Agreed. Bias aka racism does exist without behavior being displayed.
I'm saying it doesn't. I'm saying no human being can fully account for all its biases and stop them from coming out in action.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19686
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: REPARATIONS: Proof I'm Just a Racist?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:41 pm

Wordbird wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:00 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:03 am
Agreed. Bias aka racism does exist without behavior being displayed.
I'm saying it doesn't. I'm saying no human being can fully account for all its biases and stop them from coming out in action.
I agree, I wrote that too fast. But it springs from your statement:
Wordbird wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:07 pm
Underlying biases come out in behaviour.
In my view, again it would be unusual for every single underlying *ANYTHING* to *ALWAYS DO ANYTHING*.

I reject simple minded absolutist either/or non-thinking.

.............................................................................. and so should you.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?