Some species deserve to go extinct

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:39 pm

I have a slightly different view on human extinction. It is true that 99% of all species that ever existed are now gone. But that does not mean they are extinct. Many evolved into new species, and their descendants still walk the world today. In due course, humans also will be gone, but we very likely will leave descendants. Of course, they may no longer live on planet Earth.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:51 pm

Those animals are extinct. The animals that evolved from then lived on. Then died out themselves.

And so it goes.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:23 pm

Each generation is slightly different from the previous. After enough generations, the living individuals will be sufficiently evolved to be another species. The original species did not die out, it moved on. It is just as extinct as a sauropod.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:31 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:23 pm
Each generation is slightly different from the previous. After enough generations, the living individuals will be sufficiently evolved to be another species. The original species did not die out, it moved on. It is just as extinct as a sauropod.
One measure of speciation is the development of "reproductive barriers." This has been observed to occur in as few as 100 generations:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2605086/
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:36 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:39 pm
I have a slightly different view on human extinction. It is true that 99% of all species that ever existed are now gone. But that does not mean they are extinct. Many evolved into new species, and their descendants still walk the world today. In due course, humans also will be gone, but we very likely will leave descendants. Of course, they may no longer live on planet Earth.
I think it may be more accurate to say that 100% of all species that ever existed have all gone extinct. Some general forms have existed for hundreds of millions of years, but certainly not as a continual species. Living sharks, turtles, ginkgos and coelacanths are not the same species they were in the fossil record.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:54 am

I don't think that the currently living species have gone extinct yet.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Walter » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:32 pm

landrew wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:40 pm
The fossil record will contain plenty of evidence of our existence. The "human layer" will have all sorts of human artifacts embedded in the sediments like liquor bottles, handguns, syringes, smartphones and twinkies.
That is a great and fascinating point.

That layer will have no effect on the planet, but might on the next, likely mammalian, species which evolves a brain capable of language and everything that follows.

Think 80 million years after the next rock hits the planet. Interesting thought experiment.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:20 pm

Walter wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:32 pm
landrew wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:40 pm
The fossil record will contain plenty of evidence of our existence. The "human layer" will have all sorts of human artifacts embedded in the sediments like liquor bottles, handguns, syringes, smartphones and twinkies.
That is a great and fascinating point.

That layer will have no effect on the planet, but might on the next, likely mammalian, species which evolves a brain capable of language and everything that follows.

Think 80 million years after the next rock hits the planet. Interesting thought experiment.
Everything has an affect on the planet, but the planet will adapt. Some of the species we caused to go extinct will not be spawning new species in the future. Many of the mineral deposits that were near the surface have been mined out and dispersed on the land and at sea. Biotypes once separated have been dispersed around the globe. But that's only if we went extinct tomorrow; we have only just begun to re-engineer our environment. There's no telling how it will end.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:35 pm

The planet doesn't adapt.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:00 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:35 pm
The planet doesn't adapt.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/scie ... nobyl.html
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:14 pm

Exactly.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Walter » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:51 pm

landrew wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:20 pm
Some of the species we caused to go extinct will not be spawning new species in the future.
I think the human species is given too much power and influence, especially on a geological time scale. This is why I find it difficult to describe the Industrial Revolution as a geological event, or causing one in the future.

Compressing Earth’s history into a single year is something television physicists like to do. The planet had been cruising along for 31,535,999 seconds. Then Humans screwed up everything during the 31,536,000th second. (1s = 143 planet years). That is one damn powerful species. Thank of the damage we will do over the next seven seconds (1000 years).

Using the last 2,000,000 years as the most recent chunk of our evolution, we have been around for about 14,000 seconds (~ 4 hours).

The rock which took the dinosaurs, along with a few other plant and animal species, hit about 455,000 seconds ago (~ 5 days).

Today’s elementary school students learn that their own species, living on the Earth’s surface and inventing the steam engine one second ago, is an important variable, or, as super computers tell us today, a future major variable, in its geological history.

That is a tough one for me. And proof that I would be a poor science teacher, even though, as an analytical chemist, I appreciate orders of magnitude.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Walter » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:24 pm

Think of the damage… Not Thank…The best high school class I took was Typing, a half century ago. I am still pretty fast, but not without mistakes.

Those television physicists compress geological time into one year so that the viewers who might not have thought about orders of magnitude in the past can appreciate them. One does not have to be in science or mathematics to appreciate those orders. My brother, the retired offset pressman, appreciates them.

They can be very enlightening, or cause headaches.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:42 pm

Walter wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:51 pm
I think the human species is given too much power and influence, especially on a geological time scale. This is why I find it difficult to describe the Industrial Revolution as a geological event, or causing one in the future.
Why?
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:13 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:42 pm
Walter wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:51 pm
I think the human species is given too much power and influence, especially on a geological time scale. This is why I find it difficult to describe the Industrial Revolution as a geological event, or causing one in the future.
Why?
We're simply not that important in a geologic sense.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:18 pm

Read a dictionary. You are confusing issues..............at best.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:03 pm

landrew wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:13 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:42 pm
Walter wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:51 pm
I think the human species is given too much power and influence, especially on a geological time scale. This is why I find it difficult to describe the Industrial Revolution as a geological event, or causing one in the future.
Why?
We're simply not that important in a geologic sense.
Which geologic age are you referring to?

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:22 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:03 pm
Which geologic age are you referring to?
I didn't.
Because we don't qualify as a geologic age.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:45 pm

Swooshed you again.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:06 am

I think I was a bit slow on this one. The issue is that whether or not the Industrial Age and what follows will be the start of a geological age will be determined: IN THE FUTURE. Geological Ages are a retrospective labeling of what is observable in the record laid down. There is EVERY REASON to believe the Industrial Revolution will mark the beginning of the Anthropocene that many experts are claiming we have just entered. No proof of that for ..................pick your own number (edit: of years/decades/centuries).
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:55 am

There's no visible line on the ground, of course.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:11 pm

Back to the point. We don't see it much within our scope of time-perception, but a species can quickly cause it's own extinction when a very "selfish gene" arises within a population of organisms. A male can appear with the behavioral programming to seek out females with cubs, kill all the cubs and then mate with the female. This may not lead to extinction when the population is large and diverse, as it is with grizzly bears, because such a sub-population dominated by the occurrence of the selfish infanticidal gene, would likely be eventually displaced by other groups with a higher birth rate, and due to the absence of infanticide within their group. It doesn't take much to gain an edge in the evolution game.

However, in a population already threatened, where numbers are small, such a selfish gene could finish the species altogether. Within a small and less-diverse population, such a cub-killing male (and his offspring) could further diminish the population and the genetic diversity within that population, leaving it more vulnerable to disease and other factors which could reduce its population even further, which leads to even less biodiversity and so on. Extinction is just around the corner in such cases.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Walter » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:02 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:42 pm
Walter wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:51 pm
I think the human species is given too much power and influence, especially on a geological time scale. This is why I find it difficult to describe the Industrial Revolution as a geological event, or causing one in the future.
Why?
Industrial Revolution = 1/31,536,000 of Earth’s history

In my work, I deal with two orders of magnitude. Even though a certain test requires a minimum 10 micrograms to obtain reliable data, some customers might ship 1000 micrograms. In those cases, I will test 50 micrograms, for example, holding back the other 950 in case I screw up. The same goes for those who send 100 micrograms.

With modern Humans, we are looking at seven orders of magnitude. On a geological scale, humans are a minor variable, assuming they are a variable at all. And that is a big assumption.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:07 pm

what you say is true about everything else you could mention. aka: its irrelevant to the issue.

The Industrial/Revolution, because of orders of magnitude vis a vis Geological Time, could still be an excellent market for the next geological age: marked by another great extinction like many of the other ages.

Just because we can't tell right now, doesn't mean its not possible .....especially when our activities meet all the requirements for known geological ages...........
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:40 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:07 pm
what you say is true about everything else you could mention. aka: its irrelevant to the issue.

The Industrial/Revolution, because of orders of magnitude vis a vis Geological Time, could still be an excellent market for the next geological age: marked by another great extinction like many of the other ages.

Just because we can't tell right now, doesn't mean its not possible .....especially when our activities meet all the requirements for known geological ages...........
You and Gorgeous like to believe in things that "aren't impossible."
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:59 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:40 pm

You and Gorgeous like to believe in things that "aren't impossible."
Makes no sense unless you slipped a negative.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:02 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:59 pm
landrew wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:40 pm

You and Gorgeous like to believe in things that "aren't impossible."
Makes no sense unless you slipped a negative.
Nope, I checked. It's says exactly what I meant.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:07 pm

Well then: I disagree. I make pragmatism my bedrock. Things that work. They are possible or "aren't impossible."

G is mostly the opposite.

What equivalency do you note?
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:07 pm

Wrong.
Bobbo is far from pragmatic. His belief system is based on his emotions, like pessimism.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:45 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:07 pm
Wrong.
Bobbo is far from pragmatic. His belief system is based on his emotions, like pessimism.
People who are always telling you they're rich, aren't.
People who are always telling you they're smart, aren't.
People who are always telling you they're honest, aren't.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:14 pm

Name one.

..............................................and neither of you ever do.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:26 pm

You, Bobbo. Named !

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:28 am

The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:21 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:26 pm
You, Bobbo. Named !
Thanks Lance for proving the point once again. You hardly ever even try support your claims and fail when you try. Contra: I rarely call myself Pragmatic. Its in my signature line because the signature line is too hard to change so I wrote it there ONCE and haven't gone back to change it as I would for each post if alacrity was present. Contra x2: most of my positions/posting do take the pragmatic view/approach/conclusion. If you find that pessimistic, then you are on to something, you just haven't focused on the truth of what is before you.

Amusing?
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:03 am

The reason pessimism is bulldust, Bobbo, is because the data contradicts it. Modern science is 400 to 500 years old, and the developments in science have been followed by developments in human welfare. As science gets more sophisticated, life becomes better for humans.

Since science is growing decade by decade, it follows that everything for our species also gets better. More recently, developments show that human actions are becoming better for the environment too. For example, bird extinction rate has dropped 75%. Reforestation now exceeds deforestation.

You are not a realist, in that you deny these improvements, mostly to yourself. Self delusion is not pragmatic. Your focus on doom and gloom belongs in a fantasy horror novel, not in the mind of someone who believes himself to be smart.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:05 am

Drake.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:21 am

Was that a reference to "Drake's Equation"?
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:06 pm

Daffy Duck was a drake, I believe.
DrakeDuck.gif
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Walter » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:04 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:06 am
The issue is that whether or not the Industrial Age and what follows will be the start of a geological age will be determined: IN THE FUTURE.
That is why I mentioned the next seven seconds (1000 years). Our science community strangely ignores the most important and basic trait of the human species. Curiosity.

On a family vacation several years ago, my sisters were expressing concern for the future of the planet. They were very emotional about the damage we were causing, one even shedding tears about our species delaying the onset of the next ice age (seriously).

I said to them “The big assumption you are making, and it is a huge one, is that human ingenuity and inventiveness have stopped”.

Blank stares. They said nothing.

One has to wonder if our science community even appreciates its own history. Today’s message from that community? It is all over, if not for the planet, then for thousands of species, including our own.

From the steam engine, or Galileo if you prefer, to the Global Positioning System, little good has come from that curiosity, ingenuity and inventiveness. The damage outweighs the good 1000 to 1.

Great perspective for the elementary school student.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:48 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:21 am
Was that a reference to "Drake's Equation"?
Yes.....Lance argues it is totally irrelevant because you can disagree about what values to give any of its terms. Failing to understand thats the very function of the equation. Its discussed above.
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