boeing 737 max 8

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon May 20, 2019 5:00 pm

landrew wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 3:05 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:26 am
More ab hominem. Why don't you ignore the personality attacks and go with the substance?
It's all substance to say that your behavior is deteriorating the ability of everyone to enjoy this forum.

Your focus is rarely to raise an interesting point or offer a thoughtful perspective. You incessantly try to "win points" by attacking whomever you can, at any opportunity.

I'd recommend that you go elsewhere to find satisfaction for your sport. Perhaps some place with plenty of teenagers.
You know landrew........I was going to stop responding to you just because you are taking my CONSTANT criticisms of your posts so personally. My issue was whether or not to post about it or just to do it silently.

Poor snowflake.

..................................one element of the bottom line: I don't respond "to you" or anyone else on this forum except for Poodle because he makes wine, and Jo because he is a machinist. Other than that, its 99% (as nothing is pure) the "words on the page." I have noticed myself with some alarm how often this means I'm responding to what YOU post.

I could go on, but ........ I truly don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Sad when possbile personal growth is taken that way, but explanatory for the stunted performance.

I'll just say again: respond to the substance. Then it won't matter what I do........and you'll be the superstar you know you are.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Mon May 20, 2019 6:40 pm

Bobbo, do us all a favor and stop soiling this place for everyone, and go somewhere else.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon May 20, 2019 7:23 pm

I'll just say again: respond to the substance.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:53 pm

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -engineers

Boeing's 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
By Peter Robison
June 28, 2019, 4:46 PM EDT

The Max software -- plagued by issues that could keep the planes grounded months longer after U.S. regulators this week revealed a new flaw -- was developed at a time Boeing was laying off experienced engineers and pressing suppliers to cut costs.

Increasingly, the iconic American planemaker and its subcontractors have relied on temporary workers making as little as $9 an hour to develop and test software, often from countries lacking a deep background in aerospace -- notably India.

looks like a partial answer to what should be the main question .
guess they must of read my posts :-/

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:41 am

I read the link way fast.....from the first 5-6 articles I read when this aircraft first made the news........software is not the issue....even if coded by lightning flies. The operant issue was and is how Boeing incorporated that software into the plane and how they informed their customers and pilots as in for the most part: they did not.

Baseline as I recall is the industry practice before this plane was a redundancy that had the stall conditions monitored and checked between several systems as in two angle of attack systems compared to gyro systems? The new system was cheaper to make because it only used ONE angle of attack system...and I forget if it cross checked with the gyros on board. More details available if they were relevant with the POINT BEING: software isn't the issue regardless of how many USA jobs were lost by outsourcing to India.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:13 am

It's a flawed and bigoted assumption to imply that outsourced work is somehow inferior or unsafe. Quality control is the responsibility of the contractor as much as it is of the contractee. It's another fallacy to imply that quality is proportional to cost. Efficiency can deliver both quality and economy, as we have seen with countless products over time.

Regardless, the coding wasn't at fault in this case. It was the decision to secretly implement a software solution to a hardware problem. Had someone not overlooked the scenario where an AOA (angle-of-attack sensor) failed, and how it impacted the flight through the actions of the MCAS (maneuvering characteristics augmentation system) and had they properly incorporated it into the operating procedures, we may have never heard of any of this ever happening.

Add this one to the list of top engineering blunders of all time, which were actually mostly due to mismanagement, not faulty engineering.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:17 am

Question: Why were the US and Canada among the last countries to ground the 737 max?

My answer: The US government is so tight with Boeing, that they believe them when they said there was "nothing to worry about."
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:10 am

I think at best US Gub thought Boeing was competent and wouldn't be so stupid.

They were wrong. Either paid off or stupid themselves.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:02 pm

landrew wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:13 am
It's a flawed and bigoted assumption to imply that outsourced work is somehow inferior or unsafe. Quality control is the responsibility of the contractor as much as it is of the contractee. It's another fallacy to imply that quality is proportional to cost. Efficiency can deliver both quality and economy, as we have seen with countless products over time.

Regardless, the coding wasn't at fault in this case. It was the decision to secretly implement a software solution to a hardware problem. Had someone not overlooked the scenario where an AOA (angle-of-attack sensor) failed, and how it impacted the flight through the actions of the MCAS (maneuvering characteristics augmentation system) and had they properly incorporated it into the operating procedures, we may have never heard of any of this ever happening.

Add this one to the list of top engineering blunders of all time, which were actually mostly due to mismanagement, not faulty engineering.
basing my bigotry on personal experience with a non white plc engineer
is he smarter than me ? - of course
did he know much about machines / hands on experience ? no
is he constantly bullied by {!#%@} bosses making absurd demands ? yes
will he lie to placate {!#%@} bosses ? yes

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:56 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:02 pm
landrew wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:13 am
It's a flawed and bigoted assumption to imply that outsourced work is somehow inferior or unsafe. Quality control is the responsibility of the contractor as much as it is of the contractee. It's another fallacy to imply that quality is proportional to cost. Efficiency can deliver both quality and economy, as we have seen with countless products over time.

Regardless, the coding wasn't at fault in this case. It was the decision to secretly implement a software solution to a hardware problem. Had someone not overlooked the scenario where an AOA (angle-of-attack sensor) failed, and how it impacted the flight through the actions of the MCAS (maneuvering characteristics augmentation system) and had they properly incorporated it into the operating procedures, we may have never heard of any of this ever happening.

Add this one to the list of top engineering blunders of all time, which were actually mostly due to mismanagement, not faulty engineering.
basing my bigotry on personal experience with a non white plc engineer
is he smarter than me ? - of course
did he know much about machines / hands on experience ? no
is he constantly bullied by {!#%@} bosses making absurd demands ? yes
will he lie to placate {!#%@} bosses ? yes
Sounds harsh I know, but when I criticize attitudes, some people feel it a bit personally.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:13 pm

PIAS: your last comment above is very insightful, honest, going to the heart of the matter...and side issues as well.

Nothing to do with your feelings. Excellent post.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:28 pm

https://time.com/5615292/boeing-737-max ... e-problem/

BY DAVID KOENIG / AP JUNE 27, 2019
A new software problem has been found in the troubled Boeing 737 Max

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:08 am

ftl: The people said fixing the issue might be accomplished through software changes or by replacing a microprocessor in the plane’s flight-control system.

aka: its not yet proven to be software and is actually leaning towards an input failure.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:12 am

I don't think anyone is in the dark about what happened at this point. This issue has been analyzed nine ways from Sunday.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:25 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:12 am
I don't think anyone is in the dark about what happened at this point. This issue has been analyzed nine ways from Sunday.
OH? Good. Well then...........do you think the software should be fixed, or just change the microprocessor?
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:37 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:25 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:12 am
I don't think anyone is in the dark about what happened at this point. This issue has been analyzed nine ways from Sunday.
OH? Good. Well then...........do you think the software should be fixed, or just change the microprocessor?
I'll defer to the experts on that one, but I'm sure you'll feel free.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:12 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:13 pm
PIAS: your last comment above is very insightful, honest, going to the heart of the matter...and side issues as well.

Nothing to do with your feelings. Excellent post.
thanks
I try not to be frustrated by the people here mainly for LULZ .
sometimes the only people in this forum are bots ; the LULZ people chased other people away.
I want to try to write for these bots ; they might pick up an idea .
like the simple fact that the 9 dollar an hour programmers are going to lie .
someone ((( ONE programmer ))) decided to put the ------ 10 second ------ pilot lockout in the program .

unless they find this person the investigation is a failure

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:25 am

hey Bing bot , do you understand ?

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:02 pm

who is doing the work now ??? is it the same 9 dollar an hour foreigners ?

admit I am biased - best I have seen are white male independent contractors .

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:47 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:12 am
((( ONE programmer ))) decided to put the ------ 10 second ------ pilot lockout in the program .

unless they find this person the investigation is a failure
I don't recall reading this factoid before....but I have a dim memory of posting somewhere the notion of pilot lockout BEING A CRIMINAL ACT.......ESPECIALLY: when several layers of incompetence don't inform/train/signoff the pilots on such a thing. Ha, ha----I recall in the Air Force that some operational issues were so important that before we were allowed to fly our next mission we had to sign a statement that we read and understood whatever the issue was. A damn fine system of informing, quality control, and management. We did not get such requirements very often--in fact, right now I don't even the recall the specifics of any.

Goes to an issue I have ALWAYS wondered about, espcially when using foreign coders: if you have never flown an airplane, how do you think to add or not add a 10 second pilot lock out OR ANY OTHER operational issue?????? Did a programmer decide to do that or was it a spec included in what he was told to code??? How do hot shot coders who have done nothing but go to school know "anything?????"

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:29 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:12 am
((( ONE programmer ))) decided to put the ------ 10 second ------ pilot lockout in the program .
That makes no sense. Boeing managers would have called all the shots, without a doubt, not a programmer.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:07 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:29 am
psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:12 am
((( ONE programmer ))) decided to put the ------ 10 second ------ pilot lockout in the program .
That makes no sense. Boeing managers would have called all the shots, without a doubt, not a programmer.
typical manager / boss would make a general request , and avoid specifics .
my experience all they say is - fix it -
and all they ask - does it work ? -

but it is a good point and question . and the good answer would be a video of said boss explaining what he requested .
and a video of who he told to do it , explaining what he did

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:14 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:47 pm
psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:12 am
((( ONE programmer ))) decided to put the ------ 10 second ------ pilot lockout in the program .

unless they find this person the investigation is a failure
I don't recall reading this factoid before....but I have a dim memory of posting somewhere the notion of pilot lockout BEING A CRIMINAL ACT.......ESPECIALLY: when several layers of incompetence don't inform/train/signoff the pilots on such a thing. Ha, ha----I recall in the Air Force that some operational issues were so important that before we were allowed to fly our next mission we had to sign a statement that we read and understood whatever the issue was. A damn fine system of informing, quality control, and management. We did not get such requirements very often--in fact, right now I don't even the recall the specifics of any.

Goes to an issue I have ALWAYS wondered about, espcially when using foreign coders: if you have never flown an airplane, how do you think to add or not add a 10 second pilot lock out OR ANY OTHER operational issue?????? Did a programmer decide to do that or was it a spec included in what he was told to code??? How do hot shot coders who have done nothing but go to school know "anything?????"

Inquiring minds want to know.
there is a video - I searched for 737 / 10 second delay
got several hits - but can't find the specific video with a woman journalist sitting in a simulator with a pilot ,
demonstrating what happened . 10 second lockout with control wheel turning on its own , 5 seconds with the pilot trying to recover , another 10 second lockout - than the pilot discontinued the demonstration before the crash because it was too upsetting

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:40 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:07 pm
landrew wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:29 am
psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:12 am
((( ONE programmer ))) decided to put the ------ 10 second ------ pilot lockout in the program .
That makes no sense. Boeing managers would have called all the shots, without a doubt, not a programmer.
typical manager / boss would make a general request , and avoid specifics .
my experience all they say is - fix it -
and all they ask - does it work ? -

but it is a good point and question . and the good answer would be a video of said boss explaining what he requested .
and a video of who he told to do it , explaining what he did
Highly unlikely scenario.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:14 am

PIAS: I totally believe there was soft ware coding for a 10 second pilot lockout. The issue now is "who did it." And my more general question of how 25 year old coders or younger who have never done anything in their lives can actually code for anything. How do you code a simple program for a stopwatch for instance, if you've never seen a watch? Same with airplanes. How do you code for aircraft operations if you've never flown an airplane?

Seems..........impossible to me.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:21 am

Boeing did not use any outsourced coders for the MCAS upgrades:
https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/av ... 59988.html
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:40 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:21 am
Boeing did not use any outsourced coders for the MCAS upgrades:
https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/av ... 59988.html
good link , thanx . but story uses the word rely - does not say - did not use any ???

next step - who is lying ?

or better , boeing needs to go bankrupt , bought by another company and execs fired .
down side next company will probably be just as corrupt

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:43 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:14 am
PIAS: I totally believe there was soft ware coding for a 10 second pilot lockout. The issue now is "who did it." And my more general question of how 25 year old coders or younger who have never done anything in their lives can actually code for anything. How do you code a simple program for a stopwatch for instance, if you've never seen a watch? Same with airplanes. How do you code for aircraft operations if you've never flown an airplane?

Seems..........impossible to me.
thanks --- landrew has a good link about programmers .
someone is lying - either Bloomberg or Boeing .
doubt if truth will ever come out as long as the McDonnell Douglas execs are still in power .

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:47 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:40 pm
landrew wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:21 am
Boeing did not use any outsourced coders for the MCAS upgrades:
https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/av ... 59988.html
good link , thanx . but story uses the word rely - does not say - did not use any ???

next step - who is lying ?

or better , boeing needs to go bankrupt , bought by another company and execs fired .
down side next company will probably be just as corrupt
Spin-doctoring is a form of lying. Half-truths are another form; such as broad statements like: "Boeing outsourced coders..."

If you do your research by picking what you want off the plate, chances are your mother never taught you to eat properly.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:51 pm

also- time is money - its a shame all those planes are rotting away .
should let pilots try to fly them with mcas shut off .

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:52 pm

still need whoever wrote the logic - white or not - to fess up and do a tv interview

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:00 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:47 pm
psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:40 pm
landrew wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:21 am
Boeing did not use any outsourced coders for the MCAS upgrades:
https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/av ... 59988.html
good link , thanx . but story uses the word rely - does not say - did not use any ???

next step - who is lying ?

or better , boeing needs to go bankrupt , bought by another company and execs fired .
down side next company will probably be just as corrupt
Spin-doctoring is a form of lying. Half-truths are another form; such as broad statements like: "Boeing outsourced coders..."

If you do your research by picking what you want off the plate, chances are your mother never taught you to eat properly.
was in a pool watching a swim instructor teaching a kid . kid looked like he was having a hard time . I was thinking about suggesting something to the instructor ; but she is a big woman - so I talked to the grandmother who was watching . she told me he is autistic .
anyway , what are my qualifications to have an opinion ? think I mentioned earlier , about plc stuff , on a scale of 1 to 100 , I might be a 1 .
actually - same applies to everything - I know I am not qualified to have an opinion , I know I am lazy and make mistakes , I know I do not do enough research .
but , im not getting paid either ---

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:05 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:51 pm
also- time is money - its a shame all those planes are rotting away .
should let pilots try to fly them with mcas shut off .
The planes aren't safe without a properly functioning MCAS. The larger, more efficient turbofan engines won't fit under the wing, so they were slung in front of it instead. This configuration causes the nose to pitch up when full power is applied. A better solution would be a completely new airframe, but I haven't yet heard if Boeing is considering this an option.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:58 pm

I don't know for sure...........but I doubt MCAS has anything to do with nose pitch on power. Nose being too high up given power and and airspeed can occur at any time...........so the issues are different. EVERY civilian airplane can be flown manually. Only the exotic military advanced aircraft cannot be and that I assume is only at the margins of advanced performance?
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:53 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:58 pm
I don't know for sure...........but I doubt MCAS has anything to do with nose pitch on power. Nose being too high up given power and and airspeed can occur at any time...........so the issues are different. EVERY civilian airplane can be flown manually. Only the exotic military advanced aircraft cannot be and that I assume is only at the margins of advanced performance?
You've done zero research, yet you continue to make ridiculous statements that have nothing to do with reality. As a pilot, I can tell you that the nose does not normally pitch up on application of power on regular airplanes, only this one. That's why the MCAS was programmed to take over control of pitch. It works fine until one of the AOA sensors fails, falsely telling the computer that the aircraft is stalling. That's when it forces the nose down despite the attempts of the pilots to pull up. Despite not being trained properly, most pilots managed to recover from this situation. Two did not.

Now... proceed with your drunken rant, caused by your embarrassment at being caught yet again saying something stupid.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:23 pm

My first impression was like landrew: that ANY radiation is bad. That probably comes from being draped in lead sheets when going to the dentist AND being told pilots have more cancer than non pilots because of their time at altitude.

But........all I have to do is READ some contradicting information and I move off my uninformed opinion to a new one. Here, "it makes sense" the muscle growth analogy does apply as does the vaccine analogy. Not proof....but no longer rejected out of hand either. And as stated, when there is logic behind the position AND its supported in animal studies........THE BEST EVIDENCE should be anyone's position until better evidence shows a different answer.

Lance: "new information." You know: like reading the frickin dictionary.
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Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:30 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:23 pm
My first impression was like landrew: that ANY radiation is bad. That probably comes from being draped in lead sheets when going to the dentist AND being told pilots have more cancer than non pilots because of their time at altitude.

But........all I have to do is READ some contradicting information and I move off my uninformed opinion to a new one. Here, "it makes sense" the muscle growth analogy does apply as does the vaccine analogy. Not proof....but no longer rejected out of hand either. And as stated, when there is logic behind the position AND its supported in animal studies........THE BEST EVIDENCE should be anyone's position until better evidence shows a different answer.

Lance: "new information." You know: like reading the frickin dictionary.
You don't even know which thread you're on.
Sober up.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:26 am

Yep........good thing one of us does. Or is that misplaced as well?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?