boeing 737 max 8

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:46 pm

The info trickles in. MSNBC just reporting "the issue/fix" is the 737 Max anti-stall system has two sensors to detect the nose up attitude/air speed of the aircraft. currently, if any ONE of those sensors shows a stall condition, it lowers the nose regardless of what the Pilots are trying to do. Supposedly, the FIX being installed is to monitor both sensors and if they disagree to report that condition to the Pilot for the Pilot to make a decision. Evidently, though not said, if both sensors show a stall then the automatic feature will still kick in.

Whats open in my mind is that the Pilot's "basic" instrument, the big one right in front of him, is called the "Artificial Horizon" and it shows the position/attitude of the aircraft in relationship to the horizon. Add the AH to the speed indicator and you already have a "back up" to the stall indicator sensor. ie; basic info that has long been relied on seems to be ignored in this newest bit of equipment?

Best solution against terrorist: locking pilot cockpit door.

Best solution against bad automatic controls: big red disconnect button, THAT TURNS OFF ALL AUTOPILOT FUNCTIONS.

Best is simplest.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:43 am

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:55 am

Fun that video starts with a 737, switches to a 747, then back to 737. I wonder if they know that? Same with any "extra pilot" along for the ride sitting in the jump seat. Its a courtesy pilots give to one another and he was not extra, just a lucky circumstance. Not being involved in the actual flying of the airplane and sitting between the two pilots and farther back, the jump seat location often has a larger context to to see/judge what is going on.

Sure looks like "the industry" was demanding a crash before being willing to admit the engineers got one wrong. And by engineers, I mean the management that overruled them.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:03 pm

Speculating, it looks like they believed the first crash was a very rare event, unlikely to ever occur again after they had completed the planned upgrade. Apparently the failure rate of the stall sensors was in the thousands, not millions as they believed, and the second crash precipitated this debacle.

I flew a plane which had a stall sensor installed in the leading edge of the wing. It was a small flap of metal, about 1 cm square, which was lifted by airflow and activated a micro-switch which turned on a bright red "stall" light on the instrument panel. It would occasionally turn on in rough turbulence, and I even had passengers call it to my attention. I lied to keep them calm, saying it was a malfunctioning sensor.

It's hard to imagine that any commercial airline pilot would be so incompetent that they could not recognize and deal with a stall. It's hard enough to imagine that they could ever put the plane in a stall, barring some catastrophic system failure; in which case, the forceful automatic nosing-down of the plane makes no sense at all. The best hope for the passengers in such an emergency are the keen instincts of the pilots, not some dumb robot that takes over the controls.

This definitely looks like the work of stupid management on a power-trip, assuming that pilots are dumber than robots and should be superseded by them.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:53 pm

landrew wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:03 pm

It's hard to imagine that any commercial airline pilot would be so incompetent that they could not recognize and deal with a stall.
At altitude, no horizon, night, bored/tired: not that hard to imagine. Immediately on takeoff as with our two examples?: I agree. As to the calculations of odds: sure but "its rare" doesn't really cut it when its already a given that crashes are rare. My point being when its a mechanical system with a mechanical error, its the responsibility of FAA/Airlines/Mfr to fix the mechanical error (software: whatever). Airplanes "should be" designed and built and regulated so that "all" crashes are pilot error. Its the existential thing to do.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:15 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:53 pm
Airplanes "should be" designed and built and regulated so that "all" crashes are pilot error. Its the existential thing to do.
It will never happen; mechanical failures will always occur, albeit ideally, they will become increasingly rare. Similarly, pilot error will always occur. No amount of screening or pilot training can avoid some incidents like this one.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:18 pm

dote.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:21 pm

Image
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:01 am

Yeah me personally I will generally figure that an actual pilot of a real airplane knows more about the subject than I do with the many hours I have logged using MS Flight Simulator.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:16 pm

With regard to aviation safety, the public has been well-served by leaving it to the experts. The general airline safety record is remarkably favorable in recent years, and it's not due to anything more than diligent work by highly qualified personnel. Public opinion lends little to nothing to the process in this case.

It's likely in my opinion, that the grounding of all 737 Max-8s and 9s may have a net negative effect on the public through higher air fares and no added safety benefits beyond which those responsible had already addressed. Had governments not bowed to public pressure, grounding all the planes, I see convincing evidence that the problem had been addressed with proper notification and training of pilots, and would have been further mitigated by system upgrades during the regular maintenance cycle. But hysteria usually wins out where the public is concerned, so the work will be done, regardless of the extra costs.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:26 pm

Who guards the guards?

aka: in this specific case, do you think phasing the fix of a known accident causing glitch was good policy or not?
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:38 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:26 pm
Who guards the guards?

aka: in this specific case, do you think phasing the fix of a known accident causing glitch was good policy or not?
We rely on the personal integrity of the people in charge of our safety with regard to airlines. It seems to be working without the added pressure of a shrieking public on their backs. However, it's a different story with regard to the politicians.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:45 pm

1. Speak for yourself.

2. They system often doesn't move until poked by the public as in this case but quite often by relatives of the sacrificed.

3. Do you recognize a direct question when put to you??? Acting quite like a guard....with no responsibility at all making it all the more glaring.

in this specific case, do you think phasing the fix of a known accident causing glitch was good policy or not?
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:49 pm

I answer all your non-stupid questions.
The others I ignore.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:55 pm

Its posts like that that give you the Mark of Cain. Drags down the marginal posts you do make.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:10 pm

Bobbo

You are so often very vague in your questions. You accuse me of ignoring your questions too, and I make a point of responding to those I recognize as questions. Sadly ............

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:19 pm

Sadly..............you feel the necessity to team up with landdrown only keeping him motivated to be like yourself incapable or unwilling to read a question and think about it or to ask questions until you see what is clearly stated.

Like the last question that tickled your brain stem:
in this specific case, do you think phasing the fix of a known accident causing glitch was good policy or not?


A question so direct and so simple, I don't see any issue except your sense of community. Ummmm....or did you simply fail to look 3 posts above?? THat lazy?????
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:48 am

In my case, Bobbo, I will not answer because I lack expertise in this subject. My comment was more general, about your tendency to be vague.

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:03 am

Yes, I thought so. Only magnifying what I said. What you call vagueness is only your own laziness and lack of recognition.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:09 am

Well, I have tried hard on occasion to understand what you are driving at. Unsuccessfully.

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:12 am

You've never asked a question to narrow your focus. Thats a "tell."
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:03 pm

Many believe the automated flight control system — the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS — continually pushed the nose of the plane down despite the pilots repeatedly trying to correct the move. The new software will allow MCAS to push the nose of the plane lower just once and only for 10 seconds at most.

so the plane can only try to crash one time and for only 10 seconds .
awesome

is that once a day , hour ?

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:28 pm

To me, it seems like overkill to install a system that assumes that the pilots would need to be micromanaged in the event of an apparent stall. There's nothing more basic in flight training than the fact that when airspeed drops to a certain point, an airplane wing suddenly stops providing lift, and the airplane starts falling. At this point, the solution is to push the nose down and apply more power if possible, to regain air-speed and restore lift. Every pilot of any aircraft, even model planes knows this.

Every argument about safety usually defaults to the safety side, but in this case, it appears to have produced a net-negative result.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:06 pm

It would be nice to know how many times mcas has "saved" a flight from the otherwise engaged pilots? I actually suspect: none. Its giving the Engineering/Safety Department something to do.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:59 pm

I don't like the "fly by wire" concept, no matter how reliable it may be. The idea that your controls are just "joysticks" connected electronically to control systems and not linked physically, is an unsettling one. As far as I know, all computers are capable of locking up or crashing, and when that happens you're basically at the mercy of computer reboot time and the forces of nature.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:24 pm

The same applies to humans.

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:27 pm

You can like your buggy whip, but you will be overtaken by the technology that requires fly by wire. Pros and Cons to all we do. Getting shot down is a con. Personally, flying 580 mph through the air on bicycle technology has never appealed to me. Cables rust. Nuts and bolts come off. Hydraulics leak and catch fire. Pros and Cons.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:42 pm

I doubt we will ever devise a machine or AI brain that can cope with chaotic events the way a human can.



Seriously, imagine a scenario where a war or a natural disaster where nothing is working properly; systems are down, people are confused and corruption and violence reigns over those who can't help themselves. Resources are scarce, infrastructure is destroyed and yet, things still get done. No machine or designed system could ever cope with such a situation.
An example is the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. Despite a chaotic situation and an oppressive dictatorship, people somehow put it together and defeated the most powerful military force the world had ever seen.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:44 pm

Most of flying/life is dealing with boredom.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:30 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:27 am
Perhaps. But a plane goes a lot of miles in one hour. There are more air travel deaths per unit time. More travel deaths per unit distance for cars.
one thing about car statistics - it includes all the insane sheet people do in vehicles - right ?
teenagers , criminals , drunks , old people ,

guessing if cars were as regulated as planes , fatality numbers might be lower .

main thing to me - people get in cars and really don't have a drop of fear .
gut / common sense instinct is telling everyone flying is dangerous

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:44 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:30 pm

gut / common sense instinct is telling everyone flying is dangerous
Lots of overlap, but mostly just not being used to it. Just like everything else.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:46 am

Emotions, including fear have no IQ.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:59 pm

not sure if it has been mentioned - this plane/design is not stable ?
I know it has been mentioned that fighter jets have to be flown by computers because their designs are not stable .
are passenger jets stable ???

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:21 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:59 pm
not sure if it has been mentioned - this plane/design is not stable ?
I know it has been mentioned that fighter jets have to be flown by computers because their designs are not stable .
are passenger jets stable ???
Everything is a matter of degree. The most stable design has the center of gravity at the midpoint of the wing load. If the first 737 was designed with that calculation and then they added more powerful engines (haven't read if they are heavier or lighter) this would move the COG slightly but what I've read its the "handling" of the a/c that the designers wanted to mimic so as to avoid having to recertify the pilots in a "new" a/c.

So far, from what I've read I'd say the above is mostly off point. The cause of the accidents has been the new software MCAS installed without telling the pilots about it so they don't "know" its the autopilot pushing the nose down.....and/or when they disconnect the autopilot they don't know that this automatic MCAS is still engaged and has to be turned off specifically: a really poor design. "Auto Pilot Off" should mean all automatic functions related to flight controls are off.

You'd think designers would talk to their pilots every once in awhile?
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:49 pm

Emerging information seems to suggest that the Ethiopian pilots were well-trained and followed proper procedures by disengaging the MCAS system when the plane began to behave erratically. The system appears to have been re-engaged either automatically or by the pilots, as a result of it not working to allow them to regain control.

This is cited from: Ostrower, Jon (November 13, 2018). "What is the Boeing 737 Max Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System". The Air Current.
Boeing 737 MAX aircraft have engines mounted higher and further forward than previous 737 models. This engine relocation and the new nacelle shape cause an upward pitching moment. In order to pass Part 25 certification requirements, Boeing employed the MCAS to automatically apply nose-down trim when the aircraft is in steep turns or in low-speed, flaps-retracted flight; when the angle of attack (AOA) exceeds a limit that depends on airspeed and altitude; the system is temporarily deactivated when a pilot trims the aircraft using a switch on the yoke.
From the word "temporarily" is seems the system is designed to re-engage itself automatically. This makes the accident seem less like pilot error and more like design error.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:21 am

TV told me the Ethiopians disconnected the mcas but by the time they did that the "aircraft was going too fast to control" whatever that could possibly mean. Time passes in that stretched out and compressed way that airborne emergencies are and the Pilots recognized that when they turned off the mcas they also turned off the automatic trim functions of the aircraft, so in an attempt to regain control they re-engaged the auto pilot trim control functions BUT this also re-engaged the mcas which I think only again lowered the nose and increased their air speed although that last tid bit is my own imagineation.........or else why mention the mcas was turned on again?

As always.......given enough time, and maybe a good nights sleep, but never going back to read the specialty manual that probably was not generally available, the pilots probably could have figured out what balance of manual and automatic controls were required to actually fly the airplane...............but they ran out of altitude. Design error and lack of pilot training are certainly at fault.....pilot error or lack of experience that I always try to include, probably not so much involved.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:17 pm

When I received my private pilot's license, I never gave much thought to becoming a commercial pilot, and almost no thought to becoming an airline pilot, but having been around pilots at the time, I definitely got a feel for what it would take to become an airline pilot. I don't know the actual numbers then or now, but the general opinion was that perhaps only the top 2% of commercial pilots have a chance to fly for a major airline. I'm given to understand that there has rarely been a shortage of highly qualified commercial pilots in the job market.

Pilots are judged much on more than how well they can take off, land and fly a plane. It has more to do with how safe they are, and how much confidence they can inspire in their co-workers and their passengers. A large component of this are the abilities to quickly familiarize themselves with systems and procedures, the ability to think and act quickly in unplanned situations, and less tangibly, by the ability to fly the airplane "by the seat of your pants."

My point is that almost without exception, airline pilots are the "cream of the cream" of commercial pilots. Most of them tend to be gifted in what they do. Pilot errors do occur, but I'm more inclined to blame the equipment when it seems uncertain what caused an accident. The more we learn about the Ethiopian Air accident, the more it appears that it happened beyond the pilots' ability to manage.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:37 pm

I generally agree with your sentiments there landrew and I applied along with about 800 other pilots to fly for.........Delta.....I think it was. Don't know how many opennings they had but fewer than 800. I was not selected although I consider myself totally qualified with 2000 hours of heavy jet time and 400 of bug smasher time. Delta was hiring unqualified female copilots at the time....I think my place was taken by one of them.

The thing that has limited the number of pilots required is the "AUTOMATION" of airline flying. When I started...typically 3 pilots for 100 passengers. Planes got bigger and Pilots got down to two....and really one one if any is needed now but flown passengers rose to 4-5 Hundred per load. That along with countries wanting to hire their own citizens put the kibash on USAF Pilots having a career in the airlines. Fair enough.....had to do something else.

Its been bugging me.........your tale of going into clouds and using the turn and back for two minutes to reverse course. Why not use the artificial horizon and compass for the same thing? ====>but that did set up my hypo of using a spin to penetrate cloud cover. That only comes up when "you lose all instruments" which is very very rare. With total cloud coverage with a cieling above ground level........of course you would just do a wings level descent, a procedure any even low time pilot should be able to do. I was in the mindset though of "lost all your instruments" because that is when that type of scenario is raised and relevant: not very often.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:43 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:37 pm
ts been bugging me.........your tale of going into clouds and using the turn and back for two minutes to reverse course. Why not use the artificial horizon and compass for the same thing? ====>but that did set up my hypo of using a spin to penetrate cloud cover. That only comes up when "you lose all instruments" which is very very rare. With total cloud coverage with a cieling above ground level........of course you would just do a wings level descent, a procedure any even low time pilot should be able to do. I was in the mindset though of "lost all your instruments" because that is when that type of scenario is raised and relevant: not very often.
It's not really relevant to anything, but my anecdote was not to prove anything except how lucky I was to get out of a situation I was stupid enough to get into. I was a kid with less than 40 hours flying time, but I was an avid reader of books and magazines dealing with aviation. I picked up a few tips about flying that hadn't been covered in flight school. I impressed one of my instructors by using a forward-slip to lose altitude on the landing path, instead of using flaps. Using the turn-and-bank indicator was another thing that occurred to me after I had stupidly wandered into cloud, not being experienced enough to know what to watch out for as I approached. Besides, I had no idea whether or not the cloud deck reached to the ground.

I'm surprised you asked this, but using a magnetic compass to determine my heading while making a turn was far beyond my skill level at the time, due to the aircraft compass turns effect I had learned about, and I had been told that it was unreliable to use in a turn. I know that a gyro compass wouldn't have been affected by the turn, but I don't recall if that plane had one.

Anyone would have been insane to have deliberately gone into a spin to get out of that cloud, especially since it was low cloud. When you're flying straight and level, trimmed, the last thing in the world you want is to lose orientation, which would definitely have happened to me. I'm sure I'd have failed flight school if I'd suggested using a deliberate spin to get out of a cloud.
Last edited by landrew on Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:26 am

Yes landrew, I agree. The spin to safely penetrate a cloud cover is ONLY FOR when you have lost all your other instruments. Its one of about 10 "stump the dummy" posers our Instructor Pilots used to quiz us with when we were down for weather. It is predicated on there being space below the clouds to recover.......and it is used to reinforce that a spin is "a controlled condition" whereas other orientations such as "the death spiral" are not. Turn and slip with compass heading.....as said would last for some time just as you enter the cloud....but I don't know how long it would last for stable flight conditions as there is too much variability, time lag, and as you note precision in the opposite direction. I'd like to go "under the hood" and see what happens with such instrumentation..........over some longer length of time than turning around.

Puts me in memory mode. Other two stump the dummy questions I remember is: given the exhaust of a jet engine is moving at subsonic speeds, how can a jet fly at supersonic speeds? The other is: what is the limiting condition for take off at La Paz Bolivia on a hot day?

Fun stuff. I enjoy flying, its like scuba diving: intro to a 3-D world that you are not "in charge of." A world in which the burden to survive is all on you, and you aren't totally in charge. Character building stuff.
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