Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:00 pm

Timea is the fourth dimension of space/time, which is what we all live in. I quote Einstein as authority for this.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:24 pm

No dimension is specifically the "fourth" dimension, just as no specific dimension is a first, second or third. We exist in a three dimensional space and a four dimensional space-time, in which we can describe the time as a unidirectional dimension, but that doesn't make it "fourth", nor would another spatial dimension be "fourth".
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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:07 pm

Time is not at a right angle from length width depth, so does not really qualify as a dimension. It is treated as a dimension in relativity, where that treatment is necessary.

Calling another spatial dimension at right angles to LWD the 4th is an anthropomorphic colloquialism. But we are stuck with it as long as we are speaking a human language.
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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:45 pm

I believe Einstein. Not the opinions of people on this forum. He described time as the 4th dimension in our space/time universe.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:27 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:45 pm
I believe Einstein. Not the opinions of people on this forum. He described time as the 4th dimension in our space/time universe.
No. He treated it as A 4th dimension. Not the 4th dimension. Hence the term 'space-time'.
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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by landrew » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:32 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:27 pm
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:45 pm
I believe Einstein. Not the opinions of people on this forum. He described time as the 4th dimension in our space/time universe.
No. He treated it as A 4th dimension. Not the 4th dimension. Hence the term 'space-time'.
Einstein admitted he made a lot of mistakes.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:55 am

Einstein was a genius, defined as someone who does not make the same mistake more than 5 times.

I am not a genius, and nor is anyone else here, meaning oodles of room for mistakes.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:48 pm

landrew wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:32 am
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:27 pm
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:45 pm
I believe Einstein. Not the opinions of people on this forum. He described time as the 4th dimension in our space/time universe.
No. He treated it as A 4th dimension. Not the 4th dimension. Hence the term 'space-time'.
Einstein admitted he made a lot of mistakes.
That wasn't one of them. Fundamental to relativity is the hypothesis that the speed of light in a vacuum is the same in all reference frames. Lorentz transformations, used to transfer from one reference frame to another require that time be part of the coordinate systems. Treating time as a dimension allows that.
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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by landrew » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:25 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:48 pm
landrew wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:32 am
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:27 pm
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:45 pm
I believe Einstein. Not the opinions of people on this forum. He described time as the 4th dimension in our space/time universe.
No. He treated it as A 4th dimension. Not the 4th dimension. Hence the term 'space-time'.
Einstein admitted he made a lot of mistakes.
That wasn't one of them. Fundamental to relativity is the hypothesis that the speed of light in a vacuum is the same in all reference frames. Lorentz transformations, used to transfer from one reference frame to another require that time be part of the coordinate systems. Treating time as a dimension allows that.
Einstein had a remarkable ability to work with existing data and transform it into advanced conclusions. He was certainly a genius for that. But using time as a dimension was only one way of making the equations work. Although many of Einstein's theories have borne out over time, I'm not sure this was one of them. There seems to be some debate about that.
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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:36 pm

Time as a dimension is more a mathematical tool than a theory. It's not Einstein's fault that the illiterati jumped to silly misunderstandings.
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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by landrew » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:09 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:36 pm
Time as a dimension is more a mathematical tool than a theory. It's not Einstein's fault that the illiterati jumped to silly misunderstandings.
You're right. All the dimensions are a mathematical tool, so whether we call time a dimension or not is really irrelevant. If it helps you to name all your fingers and toes do do math, it really doesn't matter.
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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:51 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:31 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:32 pm
Dimebag wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:29 am
Imagine yourself as a flatlander in the 2d universe. Now imagine a cube passing through that plane of the 2d flatlanders, imagine the shape which appears as it passes through the plane. To the flatlanders, the shape would seem impossible or nonsensical, it would seem to change over time in an unimaginable way. Now bring yourself back to our normal 3D world, and try to imagine a 4d shape passing through our 3 spatial dimensions, we would face the same conundrum as the flatlanders. Notice though, that in order for a shape of a higher dimension to appear in a lower dimension fully it requires time for it to be shown
I have looked at and thought about Slices, which is what you are talking about, and projections for years. These methods give some insight but ultimately are unsatisfying when you really try to understand 4D. I have narrowed it down to trying to understand and Visualize, in some way, how a 3D Object will look Flat in 4D Space. I can understand Mathematically how the 3D Object is Flat in 4D, but I cannot really wrap my 3D Mind around it from the perspective of being a 4D Being in 4D Space.
OOPS!

A 3D object in 4D space is still 3D, not 2D (flat). A 4D object in 5D space is still 4D. Objects don't lose dimensions by being in the presence of additional dimensions.

We can't visualize more than 3 dimensions, but we can understand them. At least, some of us can.
A 3D object in 4D Space most certainly is Flat. That's the hard part to understand. A 2Der would find it very hard to understand how his 2D box is Flat in 3D. The 2Der will always see the beautiful Depth and Width of the box. He cannot get out of his 2D prison to see his 2D box from a 3D Space vantage point.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:14 am

Taking the Cube as an example might be more intuitive. A Cube has 6 sides in 3D Space. There are no other dimensions for the Cube when you have a 3D Space. Any other Dimensions or properties literally do not exist. Embed the 3D Space into 4D Space and then you can say the Cube has 8 sides. A Cube is a degenerate Tesseract in 4D, in the same way a that a Square is a degenerate Cube in 3D. A Cube is Flat in 4D. There's no way a Cube can be Flat in 3D. It is the solid Object that we all intuitively know.

You actually cannot just put a Cube in 4D Space you must do something to create the 4D Space around the Cube. This is because Space is a thing not just a Mathematical concept. There can be 4D Space, 3D Space, 2D Space etc. There can be no Space. Try to imagine that. When you add the 4th dimension you have to modify the Cube so that it now has 8 sides. Something changes when the Cube is in 4D Space. The Cube cannot be in 4D Space and only have 6 sides. While in our 3D Space the Cube can not be thought of as having 8 sides. There are no unseen sides lurking within a Cube in 3D. If you say that then the Cube should also have secret sides for the 5th dimension and higher making the Cube an infinite dimensional object with all other dimensions besides 3 being degenerate. The same is true for the Square in 2D Space. There are no secret extra sides that exist for it in 2D it has 4 sides. That view you have always had of looking down at the Square from a 3D advantage is a false view of the situation in an actual 2D Space Universe where there is no third dimension that exists. The following Animations show these things in a Visual way: http://bit.ly/2mQxRw1

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:15 am

I would like to mention an overlooked point about why viewing 2D Space from a 3D perspective is physically impossible. A 2D Space is so easily drawn as a diagram on paper that we just assume this can be done in reality. I think the problem is with ideal Mathematical thinking versus practical Physical World realities. If we are talking about a 2D Physical Space embedded in a 3D Physical Space then we have to deal with the fact that the 2D Physical Space that we are viewing has zero extension into the 3D Space. The whole 2D universe would break apart at the least perturbation from 3D Space. You must assume some kind of Star Trek like containment field holding the 2D Space together. It's just not something that you can do with Physical real world Spaces. The same thing holds for the 4th Dimension. You can not have a 3D Universe existing in the context of 4D Space. You ether have 3D or you have 4D. A 3D Space could not Physically remain intact in a true 4D universe.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Poodle » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:46 am

I love the way you say "you can not", "it's just not", "could not". Almost as if you knew.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:01 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:51 pm
A 3D object in 4D Space most certainly is Flat. That's the hard part to understand. A 2Der would find it very hard to understand how his 2D box is Flat in 3D. The 2Der will always see the beautiful Depth and Width of the box. He cannot get out of his 2D prison to see his 2D box from a 3D Space vantage point.
If string theory, or similar theories are correct, you are living in 10D (plus time) space. Are you flat?
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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:52 pm

Poodle wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:46 am
I love the way you say "you can not", "it's just not", "could not". Almost as if you knew.
But I do know.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:56 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:01 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:51 pm
A 3D object in 4D Space most certainly is Flat. That's the hard part to understand. A 2Der would find it very hard to understand how his 2D box is Flat in 3D. The 2Der will always see the beautiful Depth and Width of the box. He cannot get out of his 2D prison to see his 2D box from a 3D Space vantage point.
If string theory, or similar theories are correct, you are living in 10D (plus time) space. Are you flat?
I don't believe that the extra dimensions of String Theory propose that the Universe is 10D on a large scale. They just insert local microscopic extra dimensions to make the theory work. And that's the problem with String Theory.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:38 pm

The problem with string theory is that it has failed to make a testable prediction. Without such a test, we cannot know if it is clever academic masturbation , or something real.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:16 pm

Even CERN doesn't produce the energy levels needed to test string's predictions, except with unacceptably large error bars. It isn't that the predictions aren't testable, it is that the tests require a technology we don't have.
SteveKlinko wrote:I don't believe that the extra dimensions of String Theory propose that the Universe is 10D on a large scale. They just insert local microscopic extra dimensions to make the theory work. And that's the problem with String Theory.
:wave:
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